CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. I apologise for the late start. I'm informed that legal representatives had difficulty in getting through the traffic. We will commence the hearings today with the amnesty applications of Messrs E Mothibe and P Ndlela and I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Honourable Chair. Adv T A N Makhubele from the Pretoria Bar representing both applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Makhubele.
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chair. I'm Adv Z P Makondo from the Pretoria Bar representing the victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makondo.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. I'm Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leaders for the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'd just like to inform the people that these proceedings will be simultaneously translated and if you wish to benefit from the translation, you must be in the possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound engineer. Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Honourable Chair. Both applicants will present oral evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Which one are you calling first?
MS MAKHUBELE: Mothibe.
EDWARD MOTHIBE: (affirmed states)
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Honourable Chair.
EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: How old are you Mr Mothibe?
MR MOTHIBE: I'm 32 years old. I'll be 32 years old in August.
MS MAKHUBELE: Where do you reside?
MR MOTHIBE: I'm staying at Daveyton.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what place do you reside at?
MR MOTHIBE: Daveyton.
CHAIRPERSON: Daveyton.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are presently incarcerated at Leeukop Prison.
MR MOTHIBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are before this Committee to apply for amnesty in respect of four incidents.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Before I proceed, if I may state the first incident is the incident which occurred at Daveyton around January 1993 where a police officer known as Phadi was robbed of a firearm, is this correct?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: You were subsequently convicted of attempted murder and robbery in respect of this incident and sentenced to six years imprisonment.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: The second incident is the attack of IFP squatter camps in Daveyton around April and May 1993,
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: The third incident, there's been no criminal prosecution in respect of this IFP incident, this is correct?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: The third incident is the - involved two police officers known as Zweli - and Thabo Zweli, Mr Thabo and Mr Zweli.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: You were convicted of this incident for attempted murder and attempted robbery for their firearms.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: The last incident which occurred on the same day as the third, which is the 1st of August 1993 is for the murder of Mr Kotelo.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: For the third and the fourth incidents you were sentenced to an effective period of 34 years, which you are presently serving.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Mothibe, were you or are you a member of any political organisation around the time these incidents occurred, in 1993?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell the Committee which organisation and your position in that organisation?
MR MOTHIBE: I was a member of the African National Congress and again a member of MK.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you receive any military training?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: When and where?
MR MOTHIBE: In 1986 in Angola, in Milangeni Province.
MS MAKHUBELE: You left the country in the same year, 1986?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: When did you return to the country, that's South Africa?
MR MOTHIBE: I returned in 1992.
MS MAKHUBELE: When you returned to South Africa before the incidents for which you're applying amnesty, what position were you in in the organisation?
MR MOTHIBE: I was deployed to assist self-defence units to understand military tactics so that they would be able to defend themselves.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who elected you in that position, or deployed you, as you put it?
MR MOTHIBE: I was deployed by Col Zakes.
MS MAKHUBELE: What was the political situation in Daveyton around that time when you were deployed in to train the self-defence units?
MR MOTHIBE: The political situation was unstable because we had a conflict with IFP, PAC members.
MS MAKHUBELE: What kind of conflict? If you can describe it.
MR MOTHIBE: With the IFP there were a lot of shootings, cross-shootings between the two organisations and there was train violence and people were shot at in the trains and some members of ANC were attacked.
MS MAKHUBELE: And with the other organisation?
MR MOTHIBE: The conflict with the PAC, there was PASO, which is the student wing of PAC and within the ANC there was COSAS and there was a conflict between the two stated movements and then we were helping COSAS.
MS MAKHUBELE: How were you helping them as self-defence unit?
MR MOTHIBE: We were assisting them when there was a person who was problematic we will intervene so that we will be able to discipline that particular person.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, what kind of discipline was metered to problematic people?
MR MOTHIBE: In many instances - Okay it will depend on the circumstances as to whether we would use firearms to be shot at or maybe he'll be taken to a particular place and be disciplined
MS MAKHUBELE: Generally, before we come to specific incidents, were there any shootings where people were killed from both camps, say the IFP, the ANC, the COSAS and the PASO?
MR MOTHIBE: In the conflict between ANC and IFP we went to attack IFP squatter camps at Bugasansele. There was a shooting there. Within the conflict of the PAC and ANC, we tried many times to identify some members who were assisting PASO.
MS MAKHUBELE: Then where did you get firearms which you were using?
MR MOTHIBE: I brought them and others we took them from police, we disarmed the police.
MS MAKHUBELE: Let's then come to the first incident, that of the attempted murder of Mr Phadi who was a police officer. Can you tell the Committee about it?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Ms Makhubele, I notice from the application form, take a look at page 22 for example, it appears on more than one occasion as copies, but it says that he's applying for amnesty in respect of three murders, you only mention one murder, that was Mr Kotelo.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can I briefly confer with ...?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS MAKHUBELE: It's repeated again on page 13.
MICROPHONE TURNED OFF
ON RESUMPTION
MA MAKHUBELE: Honourable Chair, my instructions are that it's actually one murder, Mr Kotelo's, the second murder is one which he heard about, which he will deal with when we come to the IFP incident and that's as far as he knows. He says it could be - he was not writing the statement himself, it could have been - so it's actually two murders.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Continue then with the attempted murder of Mr Phadi, the policeman. That's attempted murder and robbery, is it?
MR MOTHIBE: On that particular day we were at Tlokwa.
CHAIRPERSON: Just wait. How do you spell that?
INTERPRETER: Tlokwa is T-L-O-K-W-A.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MOTHIBE: We were in Daveyton. We saw a police officer entering a particular house and then we decided, because we did not have material, we decided to disarm him.
We followed that police officer. We entered in that house together with him at the back door. I went to the dining room, then I grabbed him. After that a certain comrade took the firearm, then he used that firearm to shoot that police officer on both legs.
From there we ran to Chris Hani squatter camp.
CHAIRPERSON: Who were you with?
MR MOTHIBE: I was with Elias Kobe, K-O-B-E.
MS MAKHUBELE: Anyone else?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, others were there.
MS MAKHUBELE: You don't know their names, or cannot remember their names?
MR MOTHIBE: We were many, therefore I'm not able to identify them all because I can't remember their names.
CHAIRPERSON: Were these people that you were with, were they members of the SDU, of the Self-Defence Unit, or who were they?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct Chairperson, they were members of the SDU.
ADV SANDI: About how many were you?
MR MOTHIBE: When we entered the house we were four but outside there was a group of people.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. What happened to the firearm that you took from him?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
MR MOTHIBE: The firearm ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: If you could repeat your question please, your mike wasn't on, Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Sorry. What happened to Mr Phadi's firearm?
MR MOTHIBE: Mr Phadi's firearm we left it when we left the scene. We used that firearm in other incidents.
MS MAKHUBELE: Attacks?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Ultimately what happened to it, do you know?
MR MOTHIBE: I do not know what happened ultimately to that firearm, but it was in the hands of the SDUs.
CHAIRPERSON: Who kept the firearm after it was stolen?
MR MOTHIBE: It was at Elias.
MS MAKHUBELE: What was your motive for attacking him, political motive?
MR MOTHIBE: There is this policy which we called "Disarm the enemy and arm the victims". We did that because we were not able to have our legal firearms and then again the firearms which we'll be able to use in the defence, therefore we had to disarm those who were agents of that particular government of the day.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you hear later about the nature of the injuries Mr Phadi sustained?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I did.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell the Committee?
MR MOTHIBE: He was shot at both legs.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know if he recovered?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Let's proceed to the second incident, the attack on IFP squatter camps. You say it was between April and May 1993, you cannot remember the specific dates?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was it just one incident, one attack or several?
MR MOTHIBE: It happened at night and again it continued the following day.
MS MAKHUBELE: So it's two incidents?
CHAIRPERSON: One long one or two separate, but night and day on the same squatter camp?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes. We attacked in the evening and retreated and then we went back again the following day to attack.
MS MAKHUBELE: What's the name of the squatter camp?
MR MOTHIBE: Zenzele Squatter Camp, Z-E-N-Z-E-L-E.
MS MAKHUBELE: With whom were you when you went to attack the squatter camp?
MR MOTHIBE: We were many, because that included members of COSAS, SDUs, ANC, it included a large group of people.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an estimation of the size of the group? Was it 10 people, was it 100 people, 50? Just give us more or less the size of the group, that the group was.
MR MOTHIBE: Approximately - it's between 500 to 600 because we were many.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you describe this attack, what you did?
MR MOTHIBE: We divided ourselves in groups and then other groups left at the group to identify members of the IFP who were staying in the township. Then there was a group which went to Zenzele. Then we had a briefing. After that we left to attack different members of IFP that is within the squatter camp. We entered the squatter camp and then there were shootings there.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was it random shooting?
MR MOTHIBE: It was a random shooting, because we know that the squatter camp was terminated by IFP members.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mothibe, just to get this clear. You said you divided yourselves into groups and then some groups went into the township to identify IFP members and another group went to Zenzele. The group that went to Zenzele to attack, how large was that? Was that still the 600 people or was that a smaller group?
MR MOTHIBE: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No what?
MR MOTHIBE: When we went to Zenzele squatter camp, there were approximately 150 people.
MS MAKHUBELE: The group that identified, was it identifying people in the squatter camp, IFP people in the squatter camp, or in the township? Can you clarify this again?
MR MOTHIBE: In the township.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was it for purposes of the attack on the same day, or some other reasons?
MR MOTHIBE: They were supposed to identify people and attack them on that particular day.
MR MAKHUBELE: So when you went to Zenzele, you were satisfied that in that squatter camp, it's only IFP people?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, I was convinced because it was known that Chris Hani was a ANC enclave and Zenzele was an IFP enclave, that is why we identified Zenzele's residents as members of IFP.
MS MAKHUBELE: ANC people were living in Chris Hani squatter camp?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Going back to the attack itself. You said it was at night, how did it happen, did you break open doors and shot at people, or you shot at people that you saw outside? Can you just describe it clearly?
MR MOTHIBE: Because it was at night around midnight to dawn, there were no people on the streets so we entered Zenzele and started shooting at houses. So we didn't enter the houses, we shot at houses from outside.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yourself, do you remember how many houses you shot at? These are shacks, when you say houses?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct Chairperson, they were shack houses.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with? What sort of firearm were you using?
MR MOTHIBE: We had petrol bombs and pistols, and AK47s.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you personally have?
MR MOTHIBE: I was armed with AK47.
MS MAKHUBELE: I asked you if you remember how many shacks you shot at.
MR MOTHIBE: Because we were attacking randomly, I'm not able to testify how many shack houses we attacked.
ADV SANDI: Just explain, for how long did you do this random shooting at these shacks?
MR MOTHIBE: We entered around 12 and 1 and we returned - when we arrived at squatter camp, it was around 4 to 5 in the morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was this a type of one-sided attack, or did you get any resistance from the inhabitants? Did they shoot back at you?
MR MOTHIBE: They shot back, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: So at some stage people in the shacks came out and ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MS MAKHUBELE: So at some stage the people inside the shacks came out and there was a shoot-out between the two groups?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you remember if you shot at a person?
MR MOTHIBE: I'm not able to verify as to whether I shot a particular person.
ADV SANDI: Did anyone from your side get injured or killed?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, there was one who was injured, but there was no one who was murdered, only one who was injured.
MS MAKHUBELE: From the IFP side, do you know, or did you hear of any casualties, that's injuries or death, after the attack?
MR MOTHIBE: I learned that there was one who was murdered and then I learned again that there were those who were injured.
MS MAKHUBELE: You said in the morning you went back again, were you still the same group, or a different group?
MR MOTHIBE: We were few then during the second attack, so we were not the same number which attacked in the evening.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you remember who was in your company?
MR MOTHIBE: I remember Comrade Biza.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MR MOTHIBE: Silverman Kubheka was there.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MR MOTHIBE: I'm not able to remember others.
CHAIRPERSON: When you went in the evening to attack you said your group was approximately 150 in size. During the day, what was the approximate size of the group which attacked the Zenzele camp?
MR MOTHIBE: In the morning we would have been approximately 50 people.
MS MAKHUBELE: What was the reason for the morning attack?
MR MOTHIBE: We received an information that members of the IFP had a meeting, therefore we thought they would make an attack on us therefore we did a pre-emptive attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I could just ask the same questions in respect of the first attack. What was your reason to attack initially during the night?
MR MOTHIBE: The reason to attack the IFP in the evening was that there was a train attack at Daveyton station and members of the ANC were affected by the attack, then from there, since we observed that ANC members were attacked, we decided to make a revenge attack on the IFP members.
MS MAKHUBELE: How did it go, the morning attack?
MR MOTHIBE: We tried to enter the squatter camp. When we tried we found them being aware that we were coming then there was a cross-fire. A white Toyota which belonged to the police came and disturbed our attack, then we started attacking or shooting at the white Toyota which belonged to the SAP.
MS MAKHUBELE: Then?
MR MOTHIBE: Whilst we were shooting at that police vehicle, we tried to retreat. A certain van, which a certain red van, which was driven by Mashego approached, then we started shooting at that van. We retreated to Chris Hani.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who's this Mashego?
MR MOTHIBE: He's a police officer, he's a Sergeant at Daveyton police station.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know if he was injured in that attack between you and the police officers?
MR MOTHIBE: No, he was not affected, or he was not injured.
MS MAKHUBELE: The IFP people with whom you had a shoot-out that morning, do you know if there were any injuries?
MR MOTHIBE: I was not aware - I'm not aware Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: In your group, were there any injuries?
MR MOTHIBE: No, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: Let's come to the third and the fourth incident, we'll deal with it at the same time, because it was on the same day. On the 1st of August 1993, as you have already stated, two police officers were injured and an attorney Mr Kotelo died. Can you describe how it happened and your involvement in this incident?
MR MOTHIBE: On the 1st of August 1993 ...(intervention)
MS MAKHUBELE: Is it on the 1st of August, or are you saying in August?
MR MOTHIBE: It was on the 1st of August.
MS MAKHUBELE: Proceed.
MR MOTHIBE: Before then, we had a meeting about the - to discuss about Simon Skosana and Kotelo.
MS MAKHUBELE: What about them?
MR MOTHIBE: Because we received an information that Arnold Kotelo is playing a role in PASO side.
MS MAKHUBELE: What was he alleged to be doing to assist PASO?
MR MOTHIBE: He was assisting PASO financially and again with legal assistance and then again with other needs which they would have.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were you informed about his political affiliation, or did you know about it?
MR MOTHIBE: We were not told about his political affiliation, but we learned that he was working with them, therefore we decided that, we thought that he was one of the members.
MS MAKHUBELE: Members of what, which organisation?
MR MOTHIBE: Maybe he was a member of the PAC because PASO was the student wing of PAC.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, proceed.
MR MOTHIBE: After that we discussed about the situation. After that discussion, I decided to take an initiative.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MR MOTHIBE: Then again I will try to deal with him.
MS MAKHUBELE: What initiative did you take?
MR MOTHIBE: That I would form a unit.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MR MOTHIBE: The unit was composed of Fanie, Patrick Ndlela, Colin Mashego, Dingane Molefe.
MS MAKHUBELE: Before you come to that, did you inform any person, say your superiors or your organisation about this involvement, that PASO is getting help from this person Kotelo?
MR MOTHIBE: I did so, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who did you inform?
MR MOTHIBE: I went to Shell House together with some comrades, we were five in number. When we arrived at Shell House, we were supposed to inform Zakes, but we did not find him there. We found Jackie Selebe, now the Commissioner of the Police and we informed Jackie about the situation. Comrade Jackie said to us, he will refer that report to Comrade Africa because Comrade Africa was a member of the Peace Forum from the side of ANC in East Rand.
MS MAKHUBELE: So the assurances you got about this situation was that the Peace Forum - this matter will be resolved in a negotiated way, is this correct?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was anything done about it?
MR MOTHIBE: No, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: And what was the situation in the meantime, whilst you were waiting for the Peace Forum to deal with this matter?
MR MOTHIBE: The situation was tense.
MS MAKHUBELE: In which way? Can you describe it?
MR MOTHIBE: They were tense because PASO was now gaining power, particularly in Thema.
MS MAKHUBELE: What I mean is, was there any actual fighting that caused say the lives of people or injuries between PASO and COSAS, or the SDUs when you were waiting for the Peace Forum to resolve the situation of Kotelo's assistance to the student wing of the PAC?
MR MOTHIBE: Erasmus Mawele was shot during that process, therefore the situation made me to make an initiative.
JUDGE MOTATA: You said PASO was now gaining power, what do you mean by gaining power?
MR MOTHIBE: I'm trying to say that it was - I'm trying to say it was now overpowering the ANC in kwaThema and in Daveyton.
JUDGE MOTATA: ANC or COSAS?
MR MOTHIBE: COSAS, Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed.
MS MAKHUBELE: You say this is the reason that made you to take initiatives and deal with the matter. In what capacity were you acting then when you took initiatives?
MR MOTHIBE: I was the trainer of the SDUs.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MR MOTHIBE: Since I had the position, it is also my responsibility to defend members of COSAS, so that whoever is a member of the ANC or anyone who is a member of the ANC.
MS MAKHUBELE: Is this in accordance with your training that if you report a problem and it's not dealt with, then you take initiative?
MR MOTHIBE: According to guerrilla tactics and my experience as the Commander or Commissar or an officer of the Umkhonto weSizwe, you have the right to defend or to lead the people.
CHAIRPERSON: You said that you went to Shell House and you spoke to Mr Selebe, who I take it was your senior, is that right?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And he told you that he's referring this matter to the Peace Forum, is that right?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: No doubt because at that stage there were negotiations carrying on about the future political dispensation of the country and that the PAC and the ANC were amongst others at the table of those negotiations. Is that correct?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now before you took your initiative, did you go back to Mr Selebe and say: "Well look, this is the situation"? We know that Commanders have the right to use an initiative, but not in every situation, particularly when the matter had already been referred to the police forum.
MR MOTHIBE: He was reluctant. I took the initiative because I observed the situation and again that the forum was delaying, then I decided as a Commander that I should analyse the situation. After that analysis then I've got to take the responsibility, then again I should take the accountability of the situation.
ADV SANDI: Just tell us what do you mean when you say Peter Mokaba was reluctant.
MR MOTHIBE: Because he was the one who could have dealt with the situation immediately after he has been informed by me, but he did not take steps immediately, therefore I observed that he was relaxing or reluctant and the situation was worsening, then therefore I decided to do something.
JUDGE MOTATA: Why you did not go back to the now Commissioner, Jackie Selebe and say: "You had promised to refer this matter to the Peace Forum, but apparently nothing is happening", because that was the person you reported to first, isn't it?
MR MOTHIBE: On that particular day when I decided to go there, I did not find Jackie Selebe, but I found Peter Mokaba. I was supposed to inform him and Comrade Zakes, but I did not find them on that particular day.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson. Then it's under these circumstances that you took initiatives to deal with Kotelo and you formed a unit comprising of the names that you have given. What did you want to do?
MR MOTHIBE: I wanted them to go and shoot Dr Skosana and Arnold Kotelo.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to keep intervening Ms Makhubele, I'm sorry.
MS MAKHUBELE: No problem.
CHAIRPERSON: You've mentioned Skosana's name but you haven't told us about him. Why was he also a target of yours?
MR MOTHIBE: Dr Skosana was a member of the PAC.
ADV SANDI: Please explain. Is that the reason why he had to be shot and killed as well?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the reason because there was a conflict between PAC and us at the township.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Dr Skosana have anything to do with that conflict?
MR MOTHIBE: Because he was one of the leaders in other words, he was accountable because he was at the forefront.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson. Under the circumstances at that time, was Dr Skosana say breaching the spirit of the negotiations like say Kotelo was doing when - because you said he was supplying the PASO with giving them financial and legal help, was Skosana doing the same?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: Let's proceed then with your unit.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, just before that, but if you say Mr Kotelo was giving money and legal assistance to PASO, how was that contributing in the violence between members of PASO and COSAS?
MR MOTHIBE: When we were studying the situation, we understood that he was influencing them to give them guts to continue.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. What were your instructions to this unit? Before we proceed, if we can, for record purposes, one of the unit - your unit members is your co-applicant in this matter.
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: What were your instructions to this unit?
MR MOTHIBE: The instructions were, before I gave them instructions I went together with Fanie around Skotini. When we arrived there, we arrived at Mr Kotelo's place during the day, that is on the 1st of August. When we arrived there, we found a certain person who was washing a white car. We greeted him, then we inquired about the whereabouts of Arnold, as to whether can we see him, then we were told that we were not able to see him because he'll be going to Pretoria, maybe we'll be able to see him the following day. On our return we go and ...(indistinct) we met Lucky. On the second street from Madela we met Lucky and Mr Zweli. We passed them on the road.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Mothibe. You met Lucky, is that Lucky Kotelo?
MR MOTHIBE: No, it's a police officer, the Lucky I'm talking about is a police officer.
CHAIRPERSON: Lucky, a policeman and who was he with?
MR MOTHIBE: He was together with Zweli.
CHAIRPERSON: Zweli. Also a policeman?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.
MR MAPOMA: Sorry, Chairperson, just at this stage, about Mr Kotelo, for the record I have consulted with Mrs Kotelo, his name is Arnold Kotelo.
CHAIRPERSON: On the front page where it says Lucky Kotelo, there's no such person as Lucky Kotelo?
MR MAPOMA: There is no such person as Lucky Kotelo.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought maybe it was the son or something like that. It's not?
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So this should be Arnold.
MR MAPOMA: Arnold, yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Mapoma. Please carry on Mr Mothibe.
MR MOTHIBE: ...(not translated)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're not getting any translations.
INTERPRETER: Apologies Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him to repeat that?
INTERPRETER: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mothibe, the translator didn't hear what you said. Could you just repeat it please? You said that, the last stage that we were at, you met Lucky and Zweli who were policemen, that was on your way back from the Kotelo's place. If you can carry on from there, please.
MR MOTHIBE: After that we went to a certain house. We went to Mr Namba's house. When we arrived there, we stayed with Fanie. We decided to plan as to what should we do. We went to fetch Patrick Ndlela, Dingane Molefe, Colin Mashego. After that I took out four firearms and gave them to Fanie, then I informed them that Fanie should make sure that these two policemen should not be an obstacle to their plan and then again there should be a letter about what they will do at Kotelo's place, they've got to resolve the situation of these two policemen before they attack, then thereafter attack Kotelo's place.
MS MAKHUBELE: If I may just clarify something here. You - did you give these instructions and the firearms to all of them or to Fanie alone?
MR MOTHIBE: I gave them to Fanie.
MS MAKHUBELE: But before you gave Fanie the firearms, was there a time when you briefed the unit together, all of them?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: Is this after you left Kotelo's house in the afternoon, or some other day?
CHAIRPERSON: No, my understanding is they went to Mr Kotelo's house, spoke to the person who was cleaning the car outside, learned that Mr Kotelo wasn't there, then on their way back they saw two policemen, Lucky and Zweli and then they went to Mr Namba's house and that's where he handed over the guns to Fanie and they called the other unit members to come there. Is that correct, Mr Mothibe?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: Proceed.
MR MOTHIBE: From there I briefed the unit. After the briefing I informed them that after the mission they would find me at Hillbrow. It was at night. I don't remember what time Fanie arrived at my place to give me the feedback about the operation.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Makhubele, why didn't you go on the operation seeing that you were military trained, got your training in Angola and were the Commander of the unit. Why did you leave it to the others while you sat in Hillbrow?
MR MOTHIBE: I left that on the hands of the unit and Fanie because Fanie was also a member of the MK.
MS MAKHUBELE: What did you mean by making sure ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
MS MAKHUBELE: What did you mean when you said they should make sure the two police officers are not an obstacle?
MR MOTHIBE: Because the problem was the distance, as to whether - if they may hear the gunshots, they would intervene, therefore Mr Kotelo would not be killed.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were they Mr Kotelo's friends, the two police officers, Thabo and Zweli?
MR MOTHIBE: I would not say they were his friends, but they were staying somewhere around Kotelo's place.
MS MAKHUBELE: So coming to them specifically, the two police officers, what was the unit supposed to do with them? Go and look for them first? Can you tell us what they were supposed to do?
MR MOTHIBE: The unit was supposed to observe that before they got to Kotelo's place, their whereabouts, as to whether - how far are they from Kotelo's place. If they were near Kotelo's place, the unit must deal with them first but if they are not at the surroundings they should go direct to Kotelo's place.
JUDGE MOTATA: And when was this operation supposed to take place, that is the killing of Kotelo?
MR MOTHIBE: The attack on Kotelo's place was supposed to happen after he has returned from Pretoria.
JUDGE MOTATA: Did you know what time he would return from Pretoria?
MR MOTHIBE: I was not sure of the time.
JUDGE MOTATA: Were you told what time, other than that he would be going to Pretoria and the next day was the most possible day to see him?
MR MOTHIBE: I was not told.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you. You may proceed.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. If I may make a follow-up on that. In the afternoon when you went to Mr Kotelo, what was your purpose?
MR MOTHIBE: I wanted to verify as to whether he was at home. If he was at home, we would try to kidnap him.
MS MAKHUBELE: There and then?
MR MOTHIBE: No, Chairperson, I would go back and fetch the unit and the unit would come and deal with the situation.
CHAIRPERSON: So your fist visit was just a reconnaissance?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: The report you got from your unit, did they tell you what they did with the police officers?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, I was informed.
MS MAKHUBELE: What happened to the police officers?
MR MOTHIBE: I was informed that they shot at the police. They shot Lucky, he was shot by Dingane. Dingane shot Zweli. Colin shot Lucky.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were you informed the circumstances under which they were shot, whether the place and the circumstances?
MR MOTHIBE: They told me that they shot them at the shebeen at Madela Street.
CHAIRPERSON: How far is that from Mr Kotelo's house?
MR MOTHIBE: Approximately 100 to 150 metres if I'm not mistaken.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. Were you also informed of the circumstances under which they were shot, that is was it in accordance with your instructions?
MR MOTHIBE: I would say yes because they were somewhere near Kotelo's place because I gave them instructions that if these two policemen were an obstacle, they should deal with them first before they attack the advocate.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were you informed of the nature of injuries they sustained, the two police officers?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I was told about their injuries.
CHAIRPERSON: Although it's hearsay let us hear what you were told.
MR MOTHIBE: I was informed that Zweli has died and Lucky was shot at and injured.
MS MAKHUBELE: But in court you heard the nature of injuries they sustained. Do you recall?
MR MOTHIBE: Ja, that is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell the Committee?
MR MOTHIBE: I heard that Lucky was shot in the leg and Zweli was shot at the head and then he experienced an epilepsy.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were you told how Kotelo was killed?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: How did it happen?
MR MOTHIBE: It happened the way I instructed them, that he was kidnapped and then along the way he was shot, then he was thrown on the ground and then they took the car and dumped it in Johannesburg.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know where in Johannesburg?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that Mr Kotelo was hi-jacked then? Did they hi-jack him and his motor car, or what car were they driving?
MR MOTHIBE: He was kidnapped.
CHAIRPERSON: He was kidnapped and then which car were they using?
MR MOTHIBE: They used his car.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did they kidnap him from his home?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS MAKHUBELE: This, you were satisfied, was in accordance with your instructions?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I was satisfied because they did everything according to instructions.
MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Mothibe, in all these four incidents, did you receive any personal gain for them?
MR MOTHIBE: I did not receive any personal gain. During that time I had a belief about what is right and what is wrong and then that's my belief.
MS MAKHUBELE: In a request for further particulars from the Investigation Team, you were asked to give names, full names of Fanie. Do you know his real names or his whereabouts?
MR MOTHIBE: I don't know his real name, because Fanie was his codename, which was used in exile. I went to them in Soweto several times. Unfortunately I did not know his address.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Makhubele, after it was reported back to you about the operation, if I can call it that, did you report higher up to your seniors about what had happened or not?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, I did, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did you report to about the incident, the killing of ...
MR MOTHIBE: I reported to Col Zakes.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know his full names, this Col Zakes?
CHAIRPERSON: You can repeat that question. Put on the button and then repeat the question.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know Col Zake's full names and his capacity in the organisation?
MR MOTHIBE: I did not know his full names but I know presently that he's Colonel Zakes in Pretoria, he's working in Pretoria.
MS MAKHUBELE: In the defence department?
MR MOTHIBE: That is correct, Chairperson, in South African Defence Force.
ADV SANDI: Where and when was this report to Col Zakes?
MR MOTHIBE: I reported at Col Zakes in Shell House.
ADV SANDI: When was that? Was that immediately after you had received the report?
MR MOTHIBE: Two weeks after the incident.
ADV SANDI: What was his reaction?
MR MOTHIBE: He was shocked.
ADV SANDI: Tell us more. What do you mean by that, he was shocked?
MR MOTHIBE: Because Col Zakes was the person who was supposed to know earlier before the operation was executed.
ADV SANDI: When you say he was shocked, should I understand you to mean he did not really approve?
MR MOTHIBE: He did not expect that we could have done this thing.
ADV SANDI: Did he ask you any questions?
MR MOTHIBE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: What questions did he ask you?
MR MOTHIBE: He asked me as to whether - with whom did I do this operation, where and what time. After that he wanted to know the full details about Mr Kotelo. I told him according to my knowledge then thereafter he told me that he will see what to do.
CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened? What was - did he come back to you later after that?
MR MOTHIBE: He did not come back to me, we met in December when we were going to fetch our Christmas bonus. There we discussed about the situation, we discussed that the situation is normal and that there was no problem.
CHAIRPERSON: So the question of the murder of Mr Kotelo and the attempted murder of the two policemen just didn't rise again?
MR MOTHIBE: I don't understand the question, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No, you said that when you reported to Col Zakes, he asked you for details and then he said well, he would see what he would do and then you left and then you saw him next in December and you say you just talked about the situation. I'm asking you, didn't the question relating to the death of Mr Kotelo, wasn't that discussed again?
MR MOTHIBE: We did discuss about that as to whether what was happening in the township, then I informed him there was nothing happening and then about Mr Kotelo's incident, there's nothing coming forth about it.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson. Did you have any - rather let me start here. Did you know Mr Kotelo personally, Sir?
MR MOTHIBE: I would say I didn't know him, I only heard about him.
MS MAKHUBELE: The two police officers, were they known to you?
MR MOTHIBE: I did not know the two policemen.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are before this Committee today and the victims are seated there, the two police officers and Mr Kotelo's widow. What can you say to them? You have heard in court that the two police officers, one now has a problem, he has since developed epilepsy and has a hearing problem and apparently there's a problem with the legs of the other police officer and Mrs Kotelo has lost her husband. What can you say to them and the Committee?
MR MOTHIBE: I would say to them I regret painfully about what happened and the way it happened. I would request them to reconcile with me because at that time it was different from today. Today it is the time for us to reconcile and live together, forgive each other. I know that I won't be able to return Mr Kotelo and I won't be able to heal the wounds that Mr Zweli has sustained and Lucky as well and all their beloved ones at home who were affected by this incident. I would repeated request an apology from them. I also request this Committee to apologise. I also ask God to forgive me. I would also request the Reparation Committee to help them because I won't be able to help them. I know that myself and the Reparation Committee won't be able to return Mr Kotelo, but I know through their help and the help from the community, we will be able to help them. I also ask God and the Kotelo and the Maleka family and Mr Zweli's family to forgive me about what I did. That is all I can say to them. Thank you.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are now serving a prison term for all these actions and you know that if you were to be pardoned then you would be released. Do you have any other skills, other than military training?
MR MOTHIBE: I do not have other skills, apart from my military skills. I wrote a letter to the South African Defence Force, I wanted to know what they are saying about me. They said they don't have a problem if I am released, but they will look at my files and they will do something about me.
MS MAKHUBELE: That is the evidence-in-chief, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Makhubele. I see that it's now ten past one, this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
EDWARD MOTHIBE: (still under affirmation)
CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we've been informed that we will be interposing the application of Mr Koetle and when we've finished this matter, we'll then proceed with the matter that we were dealing with before lunch.
APPLICANT STANDS DOWN
