ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: T Shabangu, reference number AM7153/97. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. Ms Mtanga is still appearing as the Leader of Evidence and we're going to ask Mr Koopedi to put himself on record on behalf of the applicant.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear before you on behalf of the applicant who is Mr Shabangu. He is ready to be sworn in, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: He will testify in Zulu, Chairperson.
JOHAN MABOETI SHABANGU: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Shabangu, I am showing to you a document, page 1 Chairperson, of the bundle of documents. Is this your application form?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And in the same document, the back of that document on page 9, Chairperson, at the bottom of this page, the word "deponent" and there's a signature on top. Is that your signature?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for three incidences. Chairperson, the incidences are on page 2 of the bundle of documents. Is it correct that you are applying for the incidences that are listed here which would be the burning of two shacks which happened on the 4th September 1993 and burning of plus minus six shacks belonging to IFP, also which happened on the 7th September 1993 and finally the burning of shacks at A9 in Mazibuko Street which also happened in September, but on the 25th September 1993?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, perhaps just before he answers? Just carry on to page 3, I think that includes, at the back of that, you see on page 3, he seems to include two more incidents? Have you got that? So there seems to be five of them.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm indebted Chairperson, in fact there are five incidences and perhaps lets confirm the remaining four incidences. It would be the burning of four shacks, A21 Lekwane Street and finally the burning of Albert Mlaba Mafulela house. Is this correct, these are the incidences for which you are asking for amnesty?
MR SHABANGU: Yes that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time when these incidences occurred, were you a member of a political organisation?
MR SHABANGU: Yes I was a member of the Self-Defence Units.
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Koopedi, before you proceed, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Couldn't we with the first two have an indication were these shacks where other than belonging to IFP because if you look at incident 3, burning of shacks at A9, A8 Mazibuko Street and we have burning of four shacks, 821 Lekwane Street, burning of Albert Mlaba. At least we have an indication but just burning of shacks without probably an idea of the location?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. The first incident here, the burning of the two shacks belonging to the IFP, you have it here as A1, that this happened at A1, is that correct?
MR SHABANGU: Yes that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: It's actually A18, the first incident. Do you confirm that this happened at A18. What is A18, is it a section? What is A18?
MR SHABANGU: It was on Lekwane Street.
MR KOOPEDI: Is A18 a street name or a name of a particular section or is a house number?
MR SHABANGU: A18 is a house number.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now the second incident, you have it as having burned plus minus six or seven shacks belonging to IFP. Where were these shacks?
MR SHABANGU: These shacks were in A8 and A9.
MR KOOPEDI: And A8 and A9, these were also house numbers?
MR SHABANGU: Yes, they're both house numbers.
MR KOOPEDI: What street was this?
MR SHABANGU: Mazibuko Street.
MR KOOPEDI: Now the third incident here is the burning of shacks at A9 and A8, Mazibuko Street. Would this be different from the second incident where six or seven shacks were burnt?
MR SHABANGU: It is not different. Those two house numbers, A8 and A9 referred to the place where those shacks were burnt.
MR KOOPEDI: The third incident, is the third incident and the second incident one and the same? Now let me try and explain. Are you saying that you burnt six or seven shacks at A8 and A9?
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr Koopedi. Or if you look at paragraph 9a(iii) (2) in the circle there or in the second incident where the six or seven shacks were burnt. Was that in the yard of the church at the corner of Mazibuko and Masondo Streets in Tokoza?
MR SHABANGU: The six shacks were burnt at A8 or A9.
CHAIRPERSON: And was there any shacks that were burnt in the yard of the church on the corner of Mazibuko and Masondo Streets?
MR SHABANGU: They were shacks that were burnt at the corner of Mazibuko and Mavuso Streets.
CHAIRPERSON: Mazibuko and - I'm sorry can you repeat that last name of that street? Was it Mavuso?
MR SHABANGU: The church is at the corner of Mazibuko and Mavuso Streets.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you very much. Were there shacks there that were burnt as well?
MR SHABANGU: Yes there were shacks that were burnt there.
CHAIRPERSON: And to which political organisation did those people belong whose shacks were burnt there?
MR SHABANGU: They were IFP members.
CHAIRPERSON: And - I just want to try and complete it. How many shacks was it about that were burnt in that incident?
MR SHABANGU: I cannot recall the amount.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Koopedi, perhaps you can take it further?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, I'm indebted to the Honourable Panel.
On page 3 of your application form you also have this burning of four shacks at A21 Lekwane Street. Is this any different from the other incidences you've mentioned?
MR SHABANGU: It is different.
MR KOOPEDI: These were more shacks?
MR SHABANGU: Yes those were shacks that were in Lekwane.
MR KOOPEDI: Now the fifth incident, the burning of Albert Mlaba, where did this happen?
MR SHABANGU: In Mazibuko Street.
MR KOOPEDI: And do you recall the date or the page - is it this number five at the middle of the page being 5th October 1993, would this be the date when this happened?
MR SHABANGU: I cannot specifically recall the dates but I can say yes it is.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time of these offences, you said that you were a member of the SDU, is that correct?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And this SDU, this Self-Defence Unit, was it aligned to any political party?
MR SHABANGU: Yes it was aligned to the ANC.
MR KOOPEDI: Now why - what was the reason behind the burning of these shacks and the burning of Albert Mlaba? What was the reason behind that?
MR SHABANGU: The reason for the burning down of the shacks was that the owners of the people who resided in those shacks forced us as residents to attend meetings at the hostel.
MR KOOPEDI: Now these owners, you have referred to them as being shacks belonging to IFP people. I just need your confirmation. Were these owners members of the IFP?
MR SHABANGU: Yes they were members of the IFP.
MR KOOPEDI: Then on previous occasions and on other amnesty applications, members of this Honourable Committee have been told that there was a war between the ANC and the IFP. Do you want to confirm that?
MR SHABANGU: Yes, there was a war between the ANC and the IFP.
MR KOOPEDI: And these attacks, do you regard them as being part of that war?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let us briefly deal with each incident and I'd like you to explain to this Honourable Committee what happened on each occasion and specifically what role did you play? Let's start first with the two shacks at A18.
MR SHABANGU: We were a large crowd and I cannot specifically say what role I played but I took part in the burning down of those shacks.
MR KOOPEDI: You say there was a large number, who were these people? There was a group of you, is that correct?
MR SHABANGU: I cannot recall the names of the people who were present.
MR KOOPEDI: Who were these people, were they all SDU members, were they just friends, who were these people?
MR SHABANGU: They were members of the SDU's.
MR KOOPEDI: And why did that group go and attack these two shacks at A18? Was there an instruction from anyone, did you just go there on your own?
MR SHABANGU: For us to go there, there were members of the IFP who resided there and they were responsible for forcing us to go to the hostel.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, but what I want to know is, was there any order or this was just an impulsive action by this group?
MR SHABANGU: There was an order that was issued.
MR KOOPEDI: And who gave this order?
MR SHABANGU: It was the Commander of our section.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you remember who this Commander was?
MR SHABANGU: It was Mr Bongani Nkosi.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that he is present in this hall?
MR SHABANGU: Yes he is.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you. Now the second offence, this is where six or so shacks were burnt. Please tell this Committee briefly what happened there and in particular what was your role?
MR SHABANGU: With regards to the six shacks that were burnt down in A8 and A9, these shacks belonged to IFP people which they used to hide on their way to attack us. We then burnt down those shacks so that we would be in a position to see them as they approached.
MR KOOPEDI: Were there any people staying inside those shacks?
MR SHABANGU: No, no one resided at those shacks. In fact there was no person living on that street.
MR KOOPEDI: Now this burning, was it also per order of someone or was it an impulsive burning or a decision taken by your SDU?
MR SHABANGU: It was per instruction.
MR KOOPEDI: And per instructions, who gave the order, was it your Commander again?
MR SHABANGU: Yes it was the Commander.
MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps let me cover this whilst I'm still at it. All these actions that have been listed here, were they all actions upon an instruction, that is did your Commander give instructions on all these incidences?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let's move on to the next incident. What role - you have stated that the burning of, what is here is number 3, actually means 2, this is where the six or seven shacks were burnt. Now there was another incident at A21 Lekwane Street where four shacks were burnt. Could you tell the Honourable Committee what happened on this day and what was your role, what did you personally do?
MR SHABANGU: Members of the IFP resided at A21 and as I've already explained, they used to forcefully take us to meetings that were held at the hostel and for us to prevent that it was important that we remove them from the townships so that they go reside with other IFP members.
MR KOOPEDI: And what did you do to achieve this objective? How many of you went there, if you were part of them what did you have with you, did you have any weapons, did you have any matches? I want you to explain to this Committee what you did, your role?
MR SHABANGU: We were a large crowd and even on other incidents there were many of us who took part. What I can say is I did not play a major role and you could not really ascertain who was doing what if somebody was doing something active or somebody was just present.
MR KOOPEDI: Now do you align yourself with what you colleagues did?
MR SHABANGU: Yes, I do align myself with my colleagues.
MR KOOPEDI: Now this last incident, the burning of Albert Mlaba, can you briefly tell this Committee who was this Albert and why was he burnt and the role you played again?
MR SHABANGU: I'd like to explain that Albert Mlaba was a member of IFP. He is not the person who was burnt but it was the shacks in which he previously resided that were burnt but at that time he had already fled his home.
MR KOOPEDI: So actually it is incorrect to state that Albert Mlaba was burnt, you should rather say the shacks belonging to Albert Mlaba were burnt, is that correct?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now can you tell this Honourable Committee what role did you play here?
MR SHABANGU: I broke a wall which was used by IFP people. They would stand behind the wall and use that as a shield to shoot at the residents. On that particular day two women were attacked and we decided that we'd rather break down the wall so that it is possible to see anybody who approaches from the other side.
MR KOOPEDI: Other than the breaking of the wall, shacks were also burnt, is that correct?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now regard being had to evidence you've just given, the things you say you have done, as far as your memory can assist you, have you told this Honourable Committee all the relevant facts in terms of your involvement and your participation in these actions?
MR SHABANGU: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now in all these incidences, did you receive anything of personal gain?
MR SHABANGU: No I did not.
MR KOOPEDI: And these burnings, do you regard them as having been politically motivated?
MR SHABANGU: Yes, they were politically motivated because there was a war between the ANC and the IFP.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I just have one question.
Mr Shabangu, I just want to clarify something. In respect of incident number 2, the burning of six shacks, you said these shacks were at a church yard at corner of Mazibuko and another street. In your application you indicated that this street was Masondo Street but in your testimony you said it's Mavuso. Am I correct? This is stated on page 2 of your application, you said it's corner Mazibuko and Masondo, that's what you wrote in your application?
MR SHABANGU: Please repeat that question?
MS MTANGA: My question to you is that can you clarify here, on your application on page 2 you indicated that the church yard where you burnt shacks, where this church yard is located at corner Mazibuko and Masondo Streets. This is what you've written on your application. However, in your testimony today, you say this church yard is situated at corner of Mazibuko and Mavuso. So which one is correct? Is it corner of Mazibuko and Mavuso or is it corner of Mazibuko and Masondo Streets?
MR SHABANGU: I cannot specify the streets but I do know that the church is at the corner of Mazibuko and another street.
MS MTANGA: I have no other questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Shabangu, this large crowd, what did they use in burning these shacks?
MR SHABANGU: Petrol.
JUDGE MOTATA: In other words they poured petrol over these shacks and set them alight?
MR SHABANGU: We would first check if there in no one inside the shack. If there's no one and there is no property, we would burn the shack because all these incidents there were no persons, no property inside the shacks. People will come perhaps during the day to check if their residences are still intact.
JUDGE MOTATA: And this petrol was bought by yourselves, that is the members of the SDU's?
MR SHABANGU: Yes.
JUDGE MOTATA: So when you received instructions from Bongani Nkosi, did he say what mode of burning you should use or you used your own discretion as far as that is concerned?
MR SHABANGU: We used our own discretion on arrival at the scene.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Koopedi, any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Chairperson and we will not be leading any further evidence in support of this applicant's application and that is his application.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi and thank you Mr Shabangu, you will be excused. Ms Mtanga?
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, I will not be leading any evidence but I would like to place on record that we received a letter or a fax from Advocate Chris van der Heyde who normally represents IFP members and in his letter he indicated that Mr Mlaba, who is referred to here as also Mr Mafulela, is not opposing this application and that his personal details, that is the address, will not be provided for his safety and then should be need to be contacted then he can be contacted at 0824385967, that is in respect of any referral made to the reparations committee.
And then secondly, the occupants or owners of the shacks, we did advertise for them but no one contacted the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Mtanga. We've noted all of that. Mr Koopedi, have you got submissions?
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: A very brief submission, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members.
Chairperson, this applicant who is now before you comes from an area that has a peculiar history to it. You will know, Chairperson and fellow Honourable Committee Members, that in Tokoza there was at this time, during those years, a war between the IFP and its aligned self protection units together with the ANC on the one hand and the Self-Defence Units. Then it's my submission, Chairperson, that the applicant was a member of an established Self-Defence Unit which was commanded by Mr Bongani Nkosi. It's my submission, Chairperson, that in all the actions or incidences where the applicant was involved, he acted under the command of Mr Nkosi. I will in this regard, Chairperson, refer you to page 11 of your bundle of documents which was a statement by Mr Nkosi. The typed version can be found on page 11(a), Chairperson, where he states that he was a Commander of this Self-Defence Unit and he states further that the applicant was under his command, Chairperson.
And perhaps, finally Chairperson, I will submit that the applicant has also met with the requirements stipulated by the Act for him to be considered for amnesty and I would strongly urge this Honourable Committee to grant amnesty to this applicant. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will not be making any submissions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Koopedi, you won't have anything further to add, I assume?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing to add, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much, that concludes the evidence and the Panel will consider the application and will take time to prepare a decision in the matter and will ensure that the interested parties are notified once that decision is available. Therefore the decision in this matter of Mr Shabangu will be reserved.
Ms Mtanga, is there anything else that is on the roll?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that is all we had for today.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will then, I have gathered, proceed with Mr Kasrils' part of the previous application that we've heard tomorrow morning.
MS MTANGA: Yes, that is so Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What time should we reconvene here? Have you made any arrangement with Mr Kasrils?
MR KOOPEDI: We advised him that this Committee starts work at 9, Chairperson, we expect him to be here at 9. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Perhaps we should in the circumstances adjourn the proceedings until 9.30 tomorrow morning and to dispose of the application of Mr Kasrils. So we'll adjourn and we'll reconvene at 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
