Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are about to start the hearing. For the record, it's Thursday 5 October 2000. We are continuing with the hearings at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg in respect of the amnesty applications this morning of Mnguni, reference AM8076/97, Madonsela AM8093/97, Dlamini AM8088/97, Ngwenya AM8096/97, Vilakazi AM8094/97 and Tshabalala AM8097/97. The Panel is constituted as would be evident from the record. The Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga for this whole session. I am going to allow an opportunity to the legal representatives to place themselves on record, starting with the representative of the applicants.

MR RICHARD: ; Thank you Chairperson, I am Tony Richard of Johannesburg. I appear for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. On behalf of the victims.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. I'm On Nyawuza and I appear on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Richard, do you want to proceed with the testimony?

MR RICHARD: I would like to proceed by calling - again I'm not going to call them in the strict order. The first applicant has no objection to taking the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR RICHARD: Your full names.

SIPO DAVID DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Richard.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, in and during the period 1985, 86, 87, where did you live?

MR DLAMINI: During that period of 85, 86, 87, I resided at Zakele in Standerton and that's where I was born.

MR RICHARD: Now did you sympathise with any political party or support any political party?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did sympathise with a political party, it was the UDF.

MR RICHARD: And at that stage, what was the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: The UDF was an organisation involved in fighting for the rights of black people, as we all know that political leaders like Nelson Mandela were imprisoned and people like Oliver Tambo were forced to exile. The UDF therefore campaigned for the release of such political leaders as well as leaders who were in exile, for them to return to South Africa to government, as they are doing now.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 14 of the bundle at paragraph 7(b), you state that you were an office bearer of the United Democratic Front. What office did you hold?

MR DLAMINI: At that time during 1985, 86, I was an organiser in the UDF. As time went on, I became a liaison officer because I would sometimes go liaise with attorneys who would represent our comrades who had been imprisoned.

MR RICHARD: Now if you look down to your right at the gentlemen sitting next to you, do you know the gentlemen, all of them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Where do you know them from?

MR DLAMINI: I know them from Zakele in Standerton. We were all members of the UDF, involved in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Now in the papers there's mention made of an organisation known as the MG Pirates Soccer Club. What do you know about the MG Pirates Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: What I know about that organisation is that although they were a soccer team, they were also involved in killing our members.

MR RICHARD: Now who were the leaders of the MG Soccer Club? ...(indistinct - mike not on) name and number.

MR DLAMINI: I recall Alfie Mabuiya, Vusi, also known as Sanja as well as Mashaba who was also known as Sipo and others. These are the ones that I know.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the name Whisky Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: What was he in the Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: He was a player in the team as well as a leader in that organisation.

MR RICHARD: Now there's also another name, a certain Mr Masebuko, do you remember his name?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, a Mr Mpila, do you remember his name?

MR DLAMINI: Mpila?

MR RICHARD: Yes. Spundla Mapila.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do. He was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And Mr Mabisi Mazizi?

MR DLAMINI: He was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And Mabuleka Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: He was also a supporter.

MR RICHARD: Esau Twala?

MR DLAMINI: He was also a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: And a Mr Bheki?

MR DLAMINI: What was his surname?

MR RICHARD: I don't know anything more, a certain Bheki. You don't remember?

MR DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say. Perhaps if you had the surname I could recall.

MR RICHARD: Now the names that you do remember, where do you remember them from?

MR DLAMINI: As a resident of Zakele, I knew them from the area, we were all members of the community.

MR RICHARD: Where did you grow up?

MR DLAMINI: I grew up in Zakele.

MR RICHARD: The people that I've mentioned, did they grow up in the same area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I believe so.

MR RICHARD: Now how old are you now?

MR DLAMINI: I'm 33.

MR RICHARD: And in 1985?

MR DLAMINI: I was 18.

MR RICHARD: So that means you and your co-applicants were at that time all young men?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we were all young men.

MR RICHARD: Now who did the MG Pirates Soccer Club support politically?

MR DLAMINI: From the situation that prevailed then, it appeared that they supported the structures of our Councillors as well as the previous Government, because they seemed to have the support of the police.

MR RICHARD: Now before we talk about the police supporting them, on what basis do you make the statement that they supported the councillors or associated themselves with the councillors?

MR DLAMINI: It is because when Mele Whisky Louw was attacked, he is the one who informed us that the police as well as the Councillors had promised them money as well as vehicles if they were to eliminate us, because we were seen as trouble makers in the township who perpetrated violence.

MR RICHARD: Now I know it's a long time ago, 15 years ago, what was planned to happen around Christmas 1985? What was special about that Christmas?

MR DLAMINI: In December 1985 a black Christmas was planned, that had been ...(indistinct) from the International Youth Congress which had been held at Wits University. That mandate was to cripple the Government which oppressed the black people then. One of those strategies would be to boycott shops, so that we do not buy from town.

MR RICHARD: What else were you going to do, besides boycott shops?

MR DLAMINI: We would also organise stay-aways.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word Councillors, who were councillors? What did they support? What did they stand for?

MR DLAMINI: At that time, during 1985, the Councillors associated very strongly with the then apartheid government.

MR RICHARD: And what was the attitude to the Councillors and the structures that they supported?

MR DLAMINI: The people regarded them as oppressors because sometimes we would organise rent boycotts whereby we would not pay rent because we did not know, we did not understand what that rent was for.

MR RICHARD: Now, in and during December 1985, did your organisation have offices anywhere?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we did have what I would call a satellite office at one of our comrade's home, who is also an applicant in this matter.

MR RICHARD: Now some time later in 1986, what was the relationship between your organisation and the football team?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, during the year 1986 after the Black - sorry, let me change my question altogether. What was the Councillors' and their supporters' attitude to the Black Christmas?

MR DLAMINI: They saw this as an inconvenience because Christmas was supposed to be a time of celebration. However, because of that organised or planned Black Christmas, we had requested that we do not celebrate that Christmas. Instead, we should involve ourselves in a show of solidarity as well as display to the then Government that we felt the oppression, as well as make that Government ungovernable.

MR RICHARD: And tell me, did everyone support your boycotts and stay-aways and protests?

MR DLAMINI: No. There were people who did not support us, people such as Councillors, as well as other people who regarded the struggle as something that took place or perhaps as something that happened only in Jo'burg and Cape Town.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, did the MG Pirates Soccer Team support the stay-aways, boycotts, protests, the demands for the resignations of the Councillors?

MR DLAMINI: Prior to the call for a consumer boycott, I would say everyone had supported us. However in December of 1985 we were confronted with a situation whereby a group of people attacked our homes as comrades, windows were broken, houses were damaged. On the 25th of December 1985 some of the criers and supporters from this MG Pirates Soccer Team, came to attack us after we had already been attacked by another group. That is when we realised that these people were no longer in support of our struggle.

MR RICHARD: On the 24th of December 86, did you receive any approach from the Soccer Team, or people associated with it?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The date?

MR RICHARD: 24th of December 86.

MR DLAMINI: On that day, the 24th of December 1986, I was not at the scene, but I was a distance away looking on, when some officials from the MG approached our comrades to discuss the situation that prevailed at the township. It was planned that on the 25th of December, the following day, everyone would meet in Church to discuss, to have peace discussions.

MR RICHARD: What happened on the 25th?

MR DLAMINI: Because the relationship between us as comrades and the MG Pirates was not healthy, we expected to meet them and reconcile with them, so that we could carry on with the struggle because prior to the friction between us, we had all been together in the struggle. However, that did not happen. Instead what happened was that some of the players, as well as their supporters, came and attacked us to the extent that two of our comrades were killed, that is Joel Mputi and Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people that were killed?

MR RICHARD: Mnguni, the two people who got killed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the names?

MR DLAMINI: Joel Mputi.

CHAIRPERSON: Say again. Sorry, I can't hear properly, just say again.

MR DLAMINI: Joel.

CHAIRPERSON: Joel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR DLAMINI: And Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: And Bongani?

MR DLAMINI: Bhumgame.

CHAIRPERSON: Bhumgame. So they are the two that got killed by the players of the MG Soccer Club?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, in December of 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, in the Church, or where?

MR DLAMINI: No, they attacked at Bhumgame's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Sorry Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Not a problem.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Richard, can I just get clarity here? Didn't the meeting take place at all then?

MR DLAMINI: Not at all. We thought that we were going to attend the meeting that day, but instead we were attacked.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now do you remember the name Richard Twala?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: What happened to him?

MR DLAMINI: He's one of those who were killed by the supporters and the members of the MG Pirates. This happened in 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now the next question that I would want to ask is after these killings on 25 December 1986, what happened after their funerals? Was there a meeting of the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: After the funeral of the two comrades, we as ringleaders met to discuss the situation and we discussed our safety and we decided to fight back.

MR RICHARD: Now how were you going to fight back?

MR DLAMINI: We were going to attack and kill the same way as they killed our comrades. We decided to avenge their death.

MR RICHARD: Now, who were you going to attack? Were you going to attack anyone who supported the MG Soccer Team, or any particular people?

MR DLAMINI: We were going to attack those whom we perceived as ringleaders.

MR RICHARD: How were you selected as ringleaders?

MR DLAMINI: As I have indicated that we all grew up in Zakele, we knew one another. We knew them and we knew people who were aggressive in this whole conflict.

MR RICHARD: Forgive me, I'm not quite sure, when there was the attack which resulted in Bhumgame's death? Were you present? Did you see it?

MR DLAMINI: I was not present when Bhumgame was attacked, but I was in that neighbourhood.

MR RICHARD: Were there police in the neighbourhood at the time?

MR DLAMINI: What I saw was a Hippo, but because I was not on the side of Bhumgame's home, I cannot say whether they were present or not, but according to Vuma, from those who were present, they said police were present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. I won't take that any further, I'll deal with it with other witnesses. Now to turn to the specifics. Were you part of the group that killed Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, would you please tell us shortly, how did you come to meet up with Mr Louw that evening in August 1987?

ADV BOSMAN: Couldn't we, just for the record, get on record the date and the place of the incident and then we'll proceed from there?

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now Sir do you remember the killing of Mr Lulu Louw?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When did it happen, do you remember the date?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I cannot recall the date, I think I can still recall the month, it was early in August.

MR RICHARD: Which year?

MR DLAMINI: 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now where did the killing take place?

MR DLAMINI: Lulu was attacked around Tutugane, but we found him at Zakele and then we took him to Tutugane.

MR RICHARD: Where in Zakele did you find him?

MR DLAMINI: We were on our way from New Denmark and entering the township and we were walking around some offices. We saw him crossing the road towards a coloured section. We don't know whether he had relatives there, or whether he used to stay there at some stage. We followed him and captured him at an Indian section.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word we, who was with you?

MR DLAMINI: The others in my company were Comrade Dodo, Sipo Ngwenya, Comrade Dida, the late Alfie, Comrade Conquer, Comrade Baza, the late, as well as the person who was driving the kombi.

MR RICHARD: Were you in fact looking for Mr Louw that evening?

MR DLAMINI: No, it was not in the evening, it was in the late morning. We were not looking for him, we were just on our way somewhere and we came across him. Knowing his job of attacking comrades, we dealt with him.

MR RICHARD: How did you deal with him?

MR DLAMINI: As I've explained, we followed him, we captured him next to an Indian section, we put him in the kombi and drove away with him. We were questioning him along the way. We wanted him to tell us why they were killing comrades and why they were killing our fellow brothers so mercilessly. What he said to us was that they had been promised something by the Councillors and the police, they had been promised some money as well as a kombi and a Soccer Club kit.

CHAIRPERSON: Who made those promises?

MR DLAMINI: He said they were promised by the Councillors and the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: The Councillors and the police. Thank you. Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, did he mention any Councillors or policemen by name?

MR DLAMINI: No, I cannot recall whether he mentioned any names.

MR RICHARD: Now once he made this confession to you, what did you and your group decide to do?

MR DLAMINI: We decided to kill him because they were killing us.

MR RICHARD: Now, who suggested that you kill him, was it you or one of the others?

MR DLAMINI: The situation in which we found ourselves at the time was such that we were duty bound to do what we did because we were in a war situation because if we didn't kill them, they would have killed us. We didn't have to wait for an instruction to kill.

MR RICHARD: Now, could you describe how he was killed?

MR DLAMINI: He was stabbed, beaten up and in the process he got loose and he ran away and jumped into a river and he had been injured at the time, but he was still alive and we decided that we should follow him into the river and finish him off right there. We got into the river and that's where we finished him off.

MR RICHARD: Who got into the river?

MR DLAMINI: Comrade Sipo Mnguni and comrade Alfie Makubo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now we then move on to the next incident and that is one where a bus was attacked. Now you will recall when this bus attack happened.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Which year, which month, which day?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot recall the day, but the month was March 1987.

MR RICHARD: And where exactly did this attack take place?

MR DLAMINI: On the N3 freeway.

MR RICHARD: Where on the N3 freeway? Can you give us some landmark, some point of identification?

MR DLAMINI: That was next to the farms near Vosloo.

MR RICHARD: Now this bus, was it travelling to Standerton or from Standerton, or do you know where it was travelling, what it's destination was?

MR DLAMINI: The bus was en route to Standerton.

MR RICHARD: How did you know the bus would be there?

MR DLAMINI: These vigilantes were also a soccer team and a soccer fixture was published in the Sowetan and we got to know that they were going to play in Tokoza. Fortunately, because now the situation was very tense in the township, we had fled the township and we were now based at Tokoza, so we decided to wait for them at the stadium.

MR RICHARD: What happened at the stadium while you were waiting for them?

MR DLAMINI: We were not able to attack them at the stadium because the stadium was next to a school and there were soldiers deployed in that area of Tokoza.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say we couldn't attack them, who was with you?

MR DLAMINI: It was myself, Comrade Dida, Comrade Mandla, Comrade Alfie as well as another two comrades from Katlehong.

MR RICHARD: Now how did you know who was going to be in the bus?

MR DLAMINI: I have already explained that the soccer fixture indicated that they were going to be playing in Tokoza and any mention of MG Pirates made us believe that that was the group that was involved in killing comrades, so that all the people that we were seeking, including those that we had identified as ring leaders, would definitely be in the bus.

MR RICHARD: So you couldn't attack them at the stadium in Tokoza, so what was the next plan? What was the alternative?

MR DLAMINI: On failing to take them at the stadium at Tokoza, we decided to lay an ambush at the freeway and as we were laying an ambush, we would later use petrol bombs to attack the bus in which they were travelling.

MR RICHARD: Now, so that means when you planned the ambush, how did you plan to set it up?

MR DLAMINI: That happened so swiftly, we actually discussed it hastily. We discussed something to the fact that now that we have failed to attack one or even two of them at Tokoza, we should make sure that we give them some scars and to ensure that, we had to use petrol bombs.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you stop the bus?

MR DLAMINI: We did not stop the bus. You see it was in summer and the grass was high and we were lying down there and as the bus approached we lit the petrol bombs and hurled them at the bus as it was approaching.

MR RICHARD: And what happened?

MR DLAMINI: And as we hit the bus with petrol bombs, some wanted to jump out of windows and it started skidding. It looked as if the driver was using control and it came to a halt and as it did so, they came out and started coming for us. We fled into the fields and we ended up at some houses at the farms and after a while there were police on the scene.

MR RICHARD: Was anyone killed?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you attack any of the passengers after they got out of the bus?

MR DLAMINI: No, we fled.

MR RICHARD: Now did all of you in the group throw petrol bombs, or did only some of you?

MR DLAMINI: No, not all of us threw petrol bombs, only two petrol bombs were used to attack the bus.

MR RICHARD: Now, was a Sgt Meyer, who is now a Capt Meyer, connected with this incident in any way?

MR DLAMINI: I did not see Sgt Meyer in this bus incident.

MR RICHARD: Now there's a third incident and that was the killing of a Mr Masebuko, did you participate in that one?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Were you part of the planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Now during 1987 three vigilantes were killed and according to the papers there was Sipo Ngwenya and five others, do you know - were you part of that killing?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in the incident's planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: So that means you can tell us very little about it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes. I don't even think there's anything that I can tell you.

MR RICHARD: Now the killing of Mabisi Mazizi in August, were you part of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not part of that either.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in its planning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not present.

MR RICHARD: And did you receive any report about it afterwards?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And what were those reports? ...(end of tape)

ENGLISH AND FLOOR TAPE FAULTY - VERY LITTLE SOUND COMING THROUGH - ENGLISH ONLY TAPE USED

MR RICHARD: I asked you at the beginning, did you know Mr Mabisi Mazizi and what was he?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was a supporter of Eastern Pirates MG.

MR RICHARD: And then during March 1987, the 6th and last incident took place and that was Spundla Mapila was killed, were you part of that incident?

MR DLAMINI: Spundla was not killed, he was shot.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, my error, were you part of the incident?

MR DLAMINI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: During March 1987, Mr Spundla Mapila was shot at, were you part of the event? Were you present?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I was not present on the scene, but I was around.

MR RICHARD: What do you know about the event?

MR DLAMINI: What I know is that Spundla was shot on that day.

MR RICHARD: Were you active in the planning of the event?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now you and who else helped plan the shooting?

MR DLAMINI: Before I can come to that, I'd like to explain that we did not plan to attack him directly. We had planned to send one comrade to their section and he should kill anyone that he comes across.

MR RICHARD: Now who was, how would that person choose ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may he please repeat his answer?

MR DLAMINI: We did not specifically plan to kill Spundla per se, we had planned to send one comrade to their section and should he come across anyone among the identified ringleaders, he should kill them.

MR RICHARD: Now who was that person that you planned to send, or did send?

MR DLAMINI: We send Comrade Mandla Tshabalala.

MR RICHARD: Now did Mandla Tshabalala know who the ringleaders were?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he knew them.

MR RICHARD: Now who was Spundla Mapila, what was he?

MR DLAMINI: Spundla Mapila was a supporter of MG Pirates.

MR RICHARD: Was he a leader?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was in cahoots with the leaders.

MR RICHARD: Now in the papers you make mention of the name Mandla Dlamini. What was Mandla Dlamini in the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: Mandla Dlamini is one person whom we used to meet at Khotso House. He's one person who used to take notes as we were making a report, reporting about the township situation and he's the one who would get in contact with the lawyers at ...(indistinct) House.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, did ANC leaders ever visit you in Standerton, Mrs Mandela, or people of her profile?

MR DLAMINI: Which time are you referring to? Are you referring to the time then or now?

MR RICHARD: During 1987.

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever get instructions from anyone at Khotso House?

MR DLAMINI: No, no one gave us instructions at Khotso House, not even among the UDF leaders, not the leaders of the African National Congress, no one gave us orders that we should kill.

MR RICHARD: So it was up to you to work out how you would carry out your plan of action?

MR DLAMINI: The situation in which we found ourselves prompted what action we should take.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Yes Mr Nyawuza, any questions?

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. Yes, only a few questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, my instructions are not to oppose your amnesty but to get to the nitty gritties of what happened at the time. I'm going to be very brief and specific in my questioning to you. Firstly, I would wish to, you know, to get the activities of the deceased, who is Whisky Lulu Louw because you've been very inclusive in describing that he was part and parcel of the people. What is it that he specifically did at the time that made you attach him to being in contradiction of what you were fighting for at the time?

MR DLAMINI: Lulu Whisky Lulu Louw was a player as well as a supporter of Eastern Pirates MG. What prompted us to kill him was that he as well as other players and supporters, were involved in killing our comrades.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, in which killing were they involved? Mention names. Mention the names of the comrades that Whisky specifically was involved in, that is what we need to hear today.

MR DLAMINI: The killing of Comrade Joel and Bhumgame, I believe that he was present there.

MR NYAWUZA: You believed, did you see him?

MR DLAMINI: I did not see him. As I explained before, when Comrade Bhumgame and Joel were attacked, I was not present at the scene, but I was in the neighbourhood.

MR NYAWUZA: Now Mr Dlamini, you would agree with me when I say you can't with certainty say he was involved, you were told.

MR DLAMINI: I would like to explain that the situation under which we lived prompted me to believe that he was present because that was their job as MG Pirates, to attack comrades.

MR NYAWUZA: So Mr Dlamini, you would agree with me when I say you can't with certainty say he was involved, you were told. Mr Dlamini, I acknowledge the situation at the time and I think you'll agree with me that when Spundla was shot, Spundla thought that it was Dida and apparently Dida was convicted for five years for that offence, but your testimony today and the application of one of the applicants, speaks of a different person, do you agree with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was not Mr Twala who attacked Spundla.

MR NYAWUZA: Dida was in Tsakane, is that so?

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: I'll go back to my question, Mr Dlamini. Mr Dlamini, I am saying to you, you can't with certainty say Lulu Louw was involved in the killing of Bhumgame and the other chap because you were not there. You might have been in Tsakane as Dida was in Tsakane at the time.

MR DLAMINI: Sir, may as well claim that now, however, the conditions that prevailed then, such conditions under which we and other comrades suffered, prompt me to say Lulu Louw was present and he was capable of doing that.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini in as much as Spundla was sure that Dida was capable of doing that, Dida didn't do it, he was in Tsakane, so the same might have happened in Lulu's case, would you agree with me? I'm aware that Lulu was capable of doing it but would you agree with me that you can't with certainty say Lulu was involved?

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Mr Dlamini, just to cut this debate because you're not really disagreeing, the two of you. All that Mr Nyawuza is saying? You don't here me? Now you must hear the interpreter, you mustn't hear me. Do you hear the interpreter?

MR DLAMINI: Can you talk now?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear the interpreter? Okay good. I want to just indicate to you that there's no disagreement between you and Mr Nyawuza, I don't want you to debate this thing the whole time. What Mr Nyawuza is saying is that you and you say that too, you didn't see it with your eyes, but you believed that to be the case. Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't think you disagree with each other. Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, besides Bhumgame and the other chap's incident, in what other incident was Lulu involved?

MR DLAMINI: The same soccer team was also responsible for killing other comrades, people like ...(indistinct) Nkosi and Richard Twala. They would do this as a group, as a team and they would be in the company of their supporters as well. What I believe is that although I did not see him, he would not stay away and exclude himself from his colleagues when they went out to partake in whatever activities.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, were all players of Pirates and supporters of Pirates involved in this thing or was it some of the players and/or some of the supporters?

MR DLAMINI: From what we used to see, we used to see them armed, so I would say all of them, because they were ...(indistinct) and armed, under such circumstances you are not even able to identify a person's face, you just see a group of people.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, was Aubrey Mabola involved in the attacks on the comrades?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he did play a role.

MR NYAWUZA: And when was that? In which incident?

MR DLAMINI: On the day that comrade Bhumgame and Joel were killed, the person who inquired from Bhumgame's mother about their whereabouts, was Aubrey. That information we received from Bhumgame's mother, that is what leads me to believe that he was also present.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, it's my instructions from Mr Aubrey Mabola that in fact the opposite happens to be the truth. He did not at all partake in the attack on the comrades, he was one of the comrades and in fact he also had been detained at some stage during the turmoil in your township at Zakele, what's your comment on that?

MR DLAMINI: What I can say is that ...(indistinct) in a crowd, it is true that he had previously been a comrade, but however he betrayed that cause and became one of the opposition.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, when you attacked the bus on the N3 highway, how many were you in number?

MR DLAMINI: We were six.

MR DLAMINI: And you attacked with two petrol bombs, if I heard your testimony correctly.

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Who had the petrol bombs amongst the six of you?

MR DLAMINI: One was carried by Comrade Alfie and a comrade from Spruit had the other bomb. I cannot recall the comrade's name.

MR NYAWUZA: The rest of you were onlookers, you were only going to help in the running away from the supporters and the players, is that so?

MR DLAMINI: We were not onlookers because due to time pressure that we operated under, we just had to tear off our shirts to construct the bomb, so that one person held the bottle and I lit the match, I lit the cloth and the same happened with the other bomb, so I cannot say that we were onlookers.

MR NYAWUZA: That is what we want to hear, your role in the attack. That's what we wanted to hear. You wanted to say something, Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: What I did was to set the petrol bomb alight so that the comrade could throw it at the bus.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, if I follow your testimony correctly, this picture appeared in the Sowetan, if I heard your testimony correctly and you knew before hand that these people will be travelling to Tokoza and my feeling is that you planned to attack them and now in cross-examination you advise us that there were time constraints in the attack, that is why you had to use two petrol bombs. What attack in mind, what mode of attack did you have in mind when you saw this in the Sowetan? What is it that you planned you were going to do?

MR DLAMINI: We had planned to get at least two of them in Tokoza, that is where they would be attacked and killed, so that when they returned to Standerton, some would be missing.

MR NYAWUZA: How were you going to do that?

MR DLAMINI: We would capture that person and kill him.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, these people are a group, there's 11 players, there's about 4 substitutes, there's the coach, the ...(indistinct), the secretary and the supporters, how were you going to get one out of the whole group when there were only 6 of you?

MR DLAMINI: We took it as even if they were a group, some of them would perhaps go their own direction, perhaps go to a shebeen or perhaps go buy something from a shop and that would be our opportunity to get them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, would you agree with me when I say that unfortunately some people that were supporters of Pirates, were caught in the cross-fire even though they did not support what the majority of Pirates, players and supporters, did to the comrades, would you agree with me on that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would agree because even on our own side, we have players with brothers who were not comrades, but they were targeted and victimised day and night.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Dlamini, at some stage in your evidence-in-chief, you referred to - in fact when my Learned Colleague was asking you about the attack on Spundla, you referred to your comrades having planned that one of you will go to a section of the MG supporters. Was this conflict between yourselves divided on sections?

MR DLAMINI: Most MG supporters resided in one section. I would say that yes, we were demarcated by sections because we resided mostly in Jabavu and Roets, whereas they resided as Simendeni.

MR NYAWUZA: How many sections do you have in Zakele? We want to get a broader picture.

MR DLAMINI: At that time, there were about 7 if I'm not mistaken.

MR NYAWUZA: ...(indistinct), Mr Dlamini, just give us the names of the sections.

MR DLAMINI: Yes

MR DLAMINI: Simendeni, Cement, Jabavu, Moroka, Eleven, Kumalabanti, Dloss, Mklashe, Palama.

MR NYAWUZA: So in what section were Pirate supporters and players resident?

MR DLAMINI: At Simendeni.

MR NYAWUZA: And in what section were the comrades mostly resident?

MR DLAMINI: Mostly they resided at Dloss.

MR NYAWUZA: Didn't you have comrades in Jabavu?

MR DLAMINI: I resided at Jabavu.

MR NYAWUZA: And didn't you have comrades at Simendeni?

MR DLAMINI: There were some.

MR NYAWUZA: And didn't you have Pirate supporters in Jabavu and at Dloss?

MR DLAMINI: There were some.

MR NYAWUZA: Were the Pirate supporters who were resident at Jabavu and Dloss attacked? Were they attacked at any stage, no on a particular day?

MR DLAMINI: You mean collecting them from their homes, we did not do that.

MR NYAWUZA: But were they attacked any way, any way, let's say in Jabavu, did you go to where they were resident and attack them?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NYAWUZA: So are you in essence saying they went along with what the comrades were fighting for at the time?

MR DLAMINI: No, they did not. What used to happen was that regardless of where you resided, in most instances they would be found at Simendeni and that is where the majority of their supporters resided.

MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga, questions?

MS MTANGA: I have one question, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Dlamini, when you decided to attack the bus on the freeway, did it occur to you that there may be people who were just supporters of the MG Pirates Football Club who were not necessarily against the UDF?

MR DLAMINI: I would say that did not occur to me.

MR MOSIANE: What did occur to you? What did you think of the people who were inside the bus?

MR DLAMINI: What occurred to me about those people in the bus was that should they find me, they would kill me, therefore if I had an opportunity, I should do the same before they find me.

MS MTANGA: I have no other questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlamini, did I understand the evidence correctly that you were involved in rent boycotts, boycotts of businesses and stay-aways? Those are the three actions that you took, you group. Then you refer to ringleaders. Were you regarded as a leader, or as one of the ringleaders of the comrades?

MR DLAMINI: I was one of the leaders.

ADV BOSMAN: When you refer to vigilantes, I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. Who did you regard as vigilantes?

MR DLAMINI: People like Aubrey Spundla, as well as the rest of the victims ...

ADV BOSMAN: What do you understand under the term vigilante, you personally? Why did you see them as vigilantes?

MR DLAMINI: During those times vigilantes were people who associated with the previous government in eliminating political activists.

ADV BOSMAN: Now just the last question. In regard to the killing of Mazizi, your evidence was that you were not part of the incident or the planning, you only received the report that he was killed. Did you approve of this?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And you did not report this killing to anybody, to the police for instance? You did not report the killing, you approved of it and you associated yourself with the killing.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I associated myself with that act.

ADV BOSMAN: You were never charged in connection with any of these incidents that you have testified about throughout?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was not charged and that is because I fled. I always fled from the police.

ADV BOSMAN: ; You came forward willingly and of your own accord to bring this amnesty application?

MR DLAMINI: Nobody coerced me to come forward, as we all know about the promotion of National reconciliation. When the Chairperson of the TRC made public the process, he indicated that everyone who had been involved in the commission of gross human rights violations for political reasons should come forward to state their case, so that nation that had been divided by the previous government, should be able to reconcile, because the previous government was responsible for much of the division even amongst ourselves as black people.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct - mike not on) answered my question. I wanted to know whether there was any prosecution or whether you came forward and you've answered that. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: With regard to the bus, when you threw the hand grenades as a group, was the bus stationery or moving and if it was moving, how fast was it going?

MR DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say whether the bus was moving at a high speed, but after the incident I learned that it was actually a steep hill.

MR RICHARD: In other words, to throw the petrol bombs you had to be very quick.

MR DLAMINI: Definitely.

MR RICHARD: Now the UDF's leadership, in your area did you have a Chairperson, did you have a secretary, treasurer?

MR DLAMINI: What I can state was that no one was formally elected into a position but anybody amongst the comrades could be identified and co-opted into a position.

MR RICHARD: Now would do the co-option? Who would decide who would have a position? Did you have a committee?

MR DLAMINI: We knew one another very well, so we were aware of our individual strengths, so that for instance if we needed something organised, we would identify somebody or we would approach somebody we knew was capable of carrying out that responsibility.

MR DLAMINI: Mr ...(indistinct) had an office, what was his office?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the surname?

MR RICHARD: Mr Madonsela? Toto Madonsela.

MR DLAMINI: It was not his office per se, but it was a UDF office which we used to plan as well as to carry out other activities of the organisation.

MR RICHARD: Sorry interpreter, when I said the word office, I meant position, like Chairperson, Secretary, function not premises.

INTERPRETER: Oh, I beg your pardon.

MR DLAMINI: We used to call him Chief of Staff but it was not a position that he had been elected into, it was just a nickname given to him in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlamini, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment of 15 minutes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, could you just give us an indication in respect of the applicants, has any one of them been charged with regard to this incident, or are they all in the same position of Mr Dlamini?

MR RICHARD: All are in the same position. One of the applicants is in prison for another incident.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: ...they haven't been charged, they came forward voluntarily to apply? Very well. Who's the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: Thank you. The next applicant is Mr Toto Madonsela.