MANDLA ALBERT TSHABALALA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard.
MR RICHARD: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Now Mr Tshabalala, I'll put the question yet again. You've been here all day and have you listened and paid attention to what all your co-applicants have said in support of their applications today?
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Do you understand what they have said?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes.
MR RICHARD: And is there anything with which you disagree and on which you want to make comment and give an explanation?
MR TSHABALALA: No there's nothing I disagree with.
MR RICHARD: And do you confirm what they said?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.
MR RICHARD: And you confirm everything they said about all of you being members of the United Democratic Front and the members and supporters and office bearers of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club being your opponents and supporters of the apartheid Councillors and Government?
MR TSHABALALA: That's right.
MR RICHARD: Now what position do you currently hold in the Standerton area?
MR TSHABALALA: I do not hold any position.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now in the applications for amnesty, it appears that there's only one in which you personally were the active role player and that was the shooting of Spundla Mpila, do you remember the incident?
MR TSHABALALA: There are two incidents in which I was involved, the bus attack and also the attack on Mr Spundla Mpila.
MR RICHARD: Now we'll talk of Mr Spundla Mpila, do you remember when this attack took place?
MR TSHABALALA: I do not recall the date nor the month, but I do recall the year.
MR RICHARD: If I said it was in March 1987, do you agree or disagree?
MR TSHABALALA: I would agree with that.
MR RICHARD: Now do you remember where this attack took place?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.
MR RICHARD: Where did it happen?
MR TSHABALALA: It was at Simendeni section.
MR RICHARD: Now where is that section? In which township or which ...(indistinct)?
MR TSHABALALA: It was where the MG Pirates members and supporters resided.
MR RICHARD: Now did you know Spundla Mpila?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, very well.
MR RICHARD: For how long had you known him?
MR TSHABALALA: I was born and raised in Zakele, so I know all the residents of the area.
MR RICHARD: So you have known him all your life?
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Now did he support any political organisation, or was he a member of any particular Football Team?
MR TSHABALALA: What I know is that he was associated with MG Pirates Soccer Club.
MR RICHARD: And how did you know that?
MR TSHABALALA: I was a soccer player myself, I used to play for Pirates. As I've already mentioned I was raised in that township, so I know just about everyone.
MR RICHARD: Now on that day in March, when was it planned that you would go and attack somebody who killed Spundla?
MR TSHABALALA: I do not recall the date, but as my co-applicants have mentioned, we had already had that mandate and in any case, it was not Spundla specifically who was targeted, it was anyone within that group, because there were allegations that they were out to kill and behead me.
MR RICHARD: Now where did you hear these allegations from?
MR TSHABALALA: They used to chant this. They also went to my mother and informed here that one day she would open the door and see my head outside the door.
MR RICHARD: Now, what was your reaction to that information?
MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat the question.
MR RICHARD: You had received this information that people were going to cut off your head. Now what was your reaction to that?
MR TSHABALALA: I was always alert and on the look-out that they should not find me in a state of being unready.
MR RICHARD: Now the day that Spundla got killed, how did it come that you met up with him? Who sent you? When was it decided that you would go out and do whatever you did?
MR TSHABALALA: A decision was taken on the same day by myself, Sipo Dlamini, Dida and Oupa ...(indistinct) who is since late, and myself. At that time, if we had attacked one of them, they would seize, or they would not pursue us as hard as they did because they also had the assistance of the police.
MR RICHARD: In your application you say you were walking alone that evening in the township.
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: What happened while you were walking alone?
MR TSHABALALA: I was on my way, looking for them. On approaching a street which they frequented, I saw three people approaching. I crouched on the ground and I also wore a hat. Mr Mpila then saw me and came to my side. I realised that I should start attacking the one who had already seen me. When I started firing, the rest dispersed. I tried chasing one of them after Mr Mpila had fallen, but I could not succeed in capturing him, so thereafter I fled myself.
MR RICHARD: Now did you report the incident to anyone?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.
MR RICHARD: Who?
MR TSHABALALA: I returned to the comrades and informed them that we should leave the township immediately because I had already shot one of them.
MR RICHARD: Now, who sent you to go out on that walk that night, that evening?
MR TSHABALALA: As I've already mentioned that I was in the company of other comrades. I myself also wanted to attack them and do so before they attacked me.
MR RICHARD: Now, the second incident that you were involved in was the bus attack. Now did you travel to Tokoza with the party?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.
MR RICHARD: Now when you travelled to the long hill where the attack happened, what did you do there? Did you make the petrol bombs, did you throw them, did you light them?
MR TSHABALALA: I was the Commander of that instance. The comrades were lying on the grass and I was the one person who was on the look-out for the bus, so that I informed them that the bus is now close enough for them to attack. That is what I did.
MR RICHARD: Did you handle any of the petrol bombs?
MR TSHABALALA: No I did not, no there were not many petrol bombs, we just got these two bottles, after realising that we could not attack our target as planned. What I did, my role was as I've already explained that I was on the look-out and informed them to attack when the bus was close enough.
MR RICHARD: Now did you personally play an active part in any of the other incidents?
MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not. Had I been present at the township I would have.
MR RICHARD: Now did you know about the incidents after they had happened?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.
MR RICHARD: And what was your reaction and did you associate yourself with the incidents and what had happened?
MR TSHABALALA: I applauded them.
MR RICHARD: Now my last question is did any legal practitioner, paralegal, assist you in completing your amnesty application?
MR TSHABALALA: No, nobody assisted me.
MR RICHARD: And did any such person assist any of your other co-applicants, to your knowledge?
MR TSHABALALA: No one received such assistance.
MR RICHARD: Now when you and your co-applicants made your applications, was it not your intention to apply for amnesty for everything that either you or any one of your co-applicants did as part of the Standerton UDF?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it was our objective. Moreover we would also like to know why we were being attacked by those other people, because our struggle was directed at the then Government.
MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Nyawuza?
MR NYAWUZA: Only a few, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, is it correct that you were very agitated that these people wanted you buried without your head?
MR TSHABALALA: I don't quite get you.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, you get word that there are people looking for you and they tell you Mom that they will kill you and behead you and put your head on your mother's residence doorstep. Is it correct that that angered you?
MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And will I be further correct, Mr Tshabalala, to state that on the night that you were given this task to go and kill or attack anyone of these MG supporters and/or players, you were in that fighting mood?
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And Mr Tshabalala, to take this further, you shoot one person. There's this guy - you are kneeling and this guy seems to have seen you before the other two guys see you and then you shoot him. Naturally the guy that you shoot will be nearer to you than the others that will disperse. Will I be correct in so-saying as well?
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And why would you then, after having shot this guy, run after the two people that were further from you than you were to the one that you'd shot?
MR TSHABALALA: I wanted to kill all of them.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, it's my instructions that Mr Mpila was alone when you shot him, there were no other two people. What's your comment on that?
MR TSHABALALA: I am the person who was present at the scene and my appearance before this Committee is to divulge the entire truth.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Mpila, excuse me, Mr Tshabalala, isn't it correct that even Mr Mpila was there on that particular day and having advised this Committee this morning that they do not oppose the amnesty application of all of you, why would he lie about that?
MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, your response to my question is that you are the person that was there. I take it further. I say, granted, you were there, I was not there, but in as much as Mr Mpila was there, he's saying that what happened on that particular day to him, so I'm saying to you and you took the statement further that you are here to tell the truth, I'm saying this morning I mentioned it to the Committee that Mr Mpila is not opposing your application, so why, my question to you now is why would he lie about it, when he's not opposing your amnesty application?
MR TSHABALALA: It puzzles me why he is saying, I'm sure it's because there were three of them.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, is it correct that the incident occurred nearer the Masondo house?
MR TSHABALALA: No, it's a bit of a distance to the Masondo home. I would say it's about from that other room to the stage.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, it's Mr Mpila's testimony that you shot him and you ran after him until he went into the Masondo's house and then you turned back and laughed after you'd shot him. What's your comment?
MR TSHABALALA: I would not dispute it if he says so, but what I know is that I chased after somebody else after he had fallen.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Mpila's instruction to myself, Mr Tshabalala, that you shot him, he didn't bleed, he ran to the Masondo's house and all this time he didn't bleed, in fact he was aware that he was injured, but he didn't know where he was injured and when you turned back, he left the Masondo house to look as to where you are and you were nowhere after some time and what happened is he tried to go towards his home and it's only then that he collapsed and the Masondos came to his arrest. What's your comment on that?
MR TSHABALALA: I was not there, so I have no comment.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Tshabalala, you were quite aware that Dida was arrested and convicted of this. What is it that you did to prove his innocence? What happened after this incident?
MR TSHABALALA: I went to Zola in Soweto, to Mr Dida and I explained the situation about everything that had happened. Because of the slogan "an injury to one, an injury to all", Mr Twala accepted what befell him, he did not divulge that I was in fact the culprit and not him.
MR NYAWUZA: Was Dida's brother involved in the conflict as well?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he was involved.
MR NYAWUZA: Because it's my instruction Mr Tshabalala that after Mr Mpila had collapsed, Mr Twala came with a motor vehicle and he opted to take Mr Mpila to hospital, but Mr Mpila refused and said: "If I have to be taken by this guy, I would rather die in the street". Do you know anything about that?
MR TSHABALALA: That is not true. Dida was not present at the township at that time, he was at Zola in Soweto.
MR NYAWUZA: Maybe you didn't get my question. I am not speaking about Dida Twala, I am speaking about another Twala, the elder brother to Dida Twala.
MR TSHABALALA: I beg your pardon.
MR NYAWUZA: I wish to rephrase my question, Committee. Mr Tshabalala, do you know Richard Twala?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: Is he the elder brother to Dida Twala?
MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.
MR NYAWUZA: It's my instruction, Mr Tshabalala, that after the shooting incident when Mr Mpila had collapsed, Richard Twala showed up with a motor vehicle and he said he wanted to take Mr Mpila to hospital, do you know anything about that?
MR TSHABALALA: No, I had already left the scene.
MR NYAWUZA: Was Mr Richard Twala involved in the conflict between yourselves and MG Pirates members?
MR TSHABALALA: Mr Twala was not a comrade, Richard Twala, it was his brother with whom we were in the struggle.
MR NYAWUZA: Okay. No further questions thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions, Mr Richard, in re-examination?
MR RICHARD: No questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Tshabalala, you are excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.
MR RICHARD: Chairperson may I request a very brief adjournment ...(indistinct - mike not on)
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn briefly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard.
MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct- mike not on)
