ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Yes who is kicking off.
MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson I am. The next witness is the eighth applicant Mr Veli Llale.
Chairperson the witness will be giving his evidence in English as far as he is able to. But he's asked me to ask the Committee that where he has problems if he may then give evidence in Zulu. He'll indicate when he is having problems.
CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you very much. Are you prepared to take the oath.
MOSES VELI LLALE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Llale you are the eighth applicant for amnesty in these proceedings and is it correct that your application runs from page 102 to 108 of bundle C1, together with an affidavit that you deposed to for the purposes of the inquest proceedings which is annexed to your application at pages 109 to 112. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that is correct.
MR TIPP: You've also deposed to a supplementary affidavit which is part of your application for amnesty at pages 112A to 112C of bundle C2. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes correct.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale do you confirm that the contents of your application is the affidavit which is annexed to it and your supplementary affidavit are true and correct?
MR LLALE: Yes I do.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale I am just going to lead you briefly on your personal history. Is it correct that you were born in July of 1965 in Soweto and that you went to school in Soweto?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee briefly where you were at the time of the uprising in June 1976?
MR LLALE: I was twelve years old and at time I was at Toreng Primary School which is situated in Orlando West not far from where there was a meeting which was held on the 16th of June.
MR TIPP: Is it correct that you experienced the shooting of the police during the uprisings in June '76?
MR LLALE: Actually it was not a shooting of a policeman but as we were told to leave the school because now it seemed outside it was very bad we couldn't continue with reading because there was a teargas when we were running away from school to home we heard shootings that apparently Hector Petersen was not far from me. I saw him when he fell down. We turned back and we run away. But as far as I remember well I left Hector Petersen there and we left.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale when you answer my questions could you speak rather to the Committee instead of to me?
MR LLALE: Okay, Sir.
MR TIPP: In 1985 when you were in standard seven and you joined Cosas. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes it's correct.
MR TIPP: Cosas was then banned and Soyco was then formed. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that's correct.
MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee when it was that you joined the underground structures of MK?
MR LLALE: It was in 1996 after the state of emergency was imposed and all the political parties then were banned so and I was recruited to the underground structure. I worked there as a courier and as a person who deals with safe houses.
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Llale you said 1996, you mean 1986?
MR LLALE: I might have made a mistake maybe I wanted to say 1986.
MR TIPP: At the time that you joined the underground structures of MK were you still at school?
MR LLALE: Yes I was still attending school then.
MR TIPP: In 1987 you were detained. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MR TIPP: For how long were you detained and where?
MR LLALE: I stayed under Section 29 of the Internal Security Act I was detained in John Vorster Square I stayed there a year that means from 1987 to 1988 in June.
MR TIPP: And then in 1988 you were sentenced to seven years imprisonment which you started serving at the Johannesburg prison. Am I right?
MR LLALE: Yes you are right.
MR TIPP: You didn't serve seven years because you were released in 1990. Correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that is correct.
MR TIPP: Now after your release what did you do?
MR LLALE: After I was released it was not long ago when Mr Sisulu and the others were released and it was then that after the IFP was also formed I am not meaning the old one I mean the party itself, the Freedom Party, then there was the uprisings and then one of their leaders which was Mr Motswalede his house was attacked because it was not far from the Umhlope hostel. And then I was recruited to go and guard his house in Umhlope.
MR TIPP: One of the leaders of the ANC ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry name of the person whose house you were guarding, who was he?
MR LLALE: Mr Motswalede.
CHAIRPERSON: Motswalede?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MS KHAMPEPE: What position did you occupy within the ANC?
MR LLALE: When he was in Shell House he was in organising but he was with Mr Sisulu and others but in the ANC he was an organiser.
MR TIPP: At that stage what department of the ANC were you working in?
MR LLALE: As it was called then it was called Ned but later it became DIS which is Department of Intelligence and Security.
MR TIPP: As a person employed in the Department of Intelligence and Security you were then deployed to guard Mr Motswalede's house. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes it's correct.
MR TIPP: Where were Mr Motswalede's house situated?
MR LLALE: It was, I think, a kilometre away from the hostel and some metres away from Umhlope station.
MR TIPP: Is that the Mzimhlope hostel that you are referring to?
MR LLALE: Yes at first I said it was about a kilometre away from the Mzimhlope hostel and metres away from Mzimhlope station.
MR TIPP: What did you witness, briefly, if you could tell the Committee whilst you were guarding Mr Motswalede's house?
MR LLALE: At one stage I won't remember date and month but what I recollect is at one time they were coming from the rally and they came by train as they were moving from the station to the hostel they were attacking houses killing people on their way to the Umzimhlope hostel.
MR TIPP: Who is the they that you're referring?
MR LLALE: The IFP people.
MR TIPP: Did you actually witness this, these attacks with your own eyes?
MR LLALE: Yes I did witness.
MR TIPP: What - did you witness the after effects of these attacks as well?
MR LLALE: Yes because on those houses you will see small children will be killed, women couldn't run away from the attack were killed and old people so I did see some of that things which was done.
MR TIPP: Did you see how these people and young children had been killed?
MR LLALE: Yes, others will be shot, others will be stabbed it will depend on the type of attack. Because others will be using pangas, kierries all assortment of weapons but wherever they've passed we will only see disaster.
MR TIPP: Now was this one incident that you observed or did you observe a number of incidents over a period of time?
MR LLALE: I would say every time there was an IFP rally in the area these type of attacks will occur. They used to have rallies almost every week, if not every month.
MR TIPP: For how long were you in this position where you were witnessing these things and guarding Mr Motswalede's house?
MR LLALE: I worked at Mr Motswalede for only a year.
MR TIPP: And thereafter what did you do?
MR LLALE: I was told to come and work at Shell House.
MR TIPP: Now in March 1994 you were still working for the ANC in the Department of Intelligence and Security. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes it's correct.
MR TIPP: In March 1994 is it correct that you were - well let me ask you, what work were you doing in March 1994?
MR LLALE: I was a bodyguard and a driver for Mr Joe Nhlanhla who was the head of the security there. Mr Joe Nhlanhla.
MR TIPP: Then finally to bring things up to date where are you presently employed?
MR LLALE: I am still working with Joe Nhlanhla he is now a deputy minister of intelligence and I am still doing the same work I was doing at Shell House.
MR TIPP: But you are now employed by the National Intelligence Agency?
MR LLALE: Yes it's correct.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale could you briefly tell the committee about the training which you received in the United States of America?
MR LLALE: The training basically was of people who were doing VIP protection work. It was after the assassination of Chris Hani then we were sent to the United States for further training. It dealt with how to protect the dignitaries, how to protect the installation, how to react in a situation whereby your principal is being kidnapped, how do you react to a situation like that.
MR TIPP: When you are referring to installations are you referring to buildings?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MR TIPP: What time did you arrive at Shell House on the Monday the 28th of March 1994. Can you recall?
MR LLALE: I think at seven o' clock.
MR TIPP: Briefly could you tell the committee what you saw on your way from Soweto through to Shell House that morning?
MR LLALE: One passes hostels when he comes to work. One would be Jabulani Hostel which was on my route. There was acts of violence, roads were closed and I had to take other roads to work and I had to pass through the hostel which was also on my route and also saw similar acts which I saw in Jabulani, of people which were stranded. They didn't have taxis and roads were closed so also I had take other routes to connect to town.
MR TIPP: What acts did you witness on your way to work?
MR LLALE: There was shooting, people were running around and you could see when you were passing that in the hostel itself there were buses and there were lot of violence, meaning shooting. What I mean they were shooting up in the air or to the people I don't know, but there was lot of shooting which was happening near the hostels.
MR TIPP: When you say "they" who are you referring to?
MR LLALE: The people who occupied hostels which were IFP people then.
MR TIPP: Did you have an idea of what was going on, what was your impression as to what was happening that day?
MR LLALE: As a person who grew in Soweto every time when there is an IFP march we knew that there was going to be violence so before this day on the news it was reported that the IFP march - there was going to be a gathering in town so I knew that maybe they were preparing to go to this gathering.
MR TIPP: When you arrived at Shell House were you briefed at all as to what to expect on the day?
MR LLALE: Usually at Shell House every morning there's a briefing for security guards, but on that day what made me suspicious was the people who were working night shift were also attending this meeting and I could see that the people who came in and the people who were working at night shift were in the same room and they were briefed by Joe Mababe. As a person who worked with Mr Joe Nhlanhla who all the time was at Shell House I attended this meeting also.
MR TIPP: Can you recall what Joe Mababe said?
MR LLALE: When I went in the meeting was already in progress but what I remember very well was that the guards were told, including myself, because I was already in that meeting that today the guards shall be in alert because there's going to be a gathering of IFP people in town and there is a possibility that there might be an attack on Shell House. This is the information they had by then.
MR TIPP: Now at that time you were attached to Mr Nhlanhla what - how did you become involved in the activities around Shell House? Was it after that meeting or what happened?
MR LLALE: After I have attended that meeting I decided that I shall also deploy with security people because I knew that Mr Joe Nhlanhla was head of security. If it is true that there is going to be such a thing he won't actually - he will be in the building to see to it that every thing was done in order.
MR TIPP: Where were you deployed?
MR LLALE: After the meeting I went back to Joe Mababe I requested him that he must include me in the number of people he was deploying and then later on I think it was ten minutes later on Chris Lushabe came to me and said to me I shall go up to the parapet.
MR TIPP: It's common course that you were armed on the parapet that day with a shotgun. How did you get that shotgun?
MR LLALE: I don't know whether I'll remember well but as I recollect a deputy commander of Shell House who was by then it was, Maswe is late now, gave me a shotgun and a bullet proof vest before I went up to the parapet.
MR LAX: Sorry I didn't here that name correctly. What was the name?
MR LLALE: Maswe.
MR TIPP: Who did you find on the parapet, who was with you?
MR LLALE: When I arrived at the parapet the only person who was there was Jakwe Molefe, Jacob Molefe.
MR TIPP: Thereafter were you joined by any people on the parapet?
MR LLALE: Chris Lushabe as a commander on that day and he came up and I remember Steve Moolman also came up later.
MR TIPP: What did you do on the parapet that morning?
MR LLALE: I was patrolling the parapet with Jagwa Molefe.
MR TIPP: And what was the purpose of your patrol?
MR LLALE: The purpose of the patrol was that when you are on the parapet your view is different from a person who works downstairs because you can see far and then the reason why I was there because of the visibility was much better than a person who was deployed elsewhere.
MR TIPP: So as I understand it you were walking around the parapet looking out at various positions. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes correct.
MR TIPP: Can you tell the court briefly again, the committee I beg your pardon, briefly again what you observed from the parapet that morning before the main incident?
MR LLALE: There were various marchers that passed Shell House. I don't know if I am correct but if I remember well the first group that I noticed on that day they were using Plein Street going up to Brëe Street. That group particularly was escorted by police and there were a lot of journalists and women so I and Jagwa we went to the side there and we stood there watching this group as it was passing on singing and doing this Zulu dances and - as others have said there were posters there because it was, the ANC had already started its electioning process and then there were posters all over town of ANC and a poster of the President of the country which is Nelson Mandela. Some of the marchers will go to this posters with spears and knobkierries knock these posters down. Some of them will pass a poster of the President which is - I am referring to President Mandela, tore it, throw it in the air but we didn't do nothing, we just looked at them as they were passing through.
MR TIPP: Were there other groups as well besides the group that went down passed Klein Street?
MR LLALE: I think two groups later followed which the other one if I remember well passed just in front of the door and there were lot of women which were doing a lot of things that I cannot say but which were very funny to us, but we just stood there with Jagwa and others - observe as they were passing through.
MR TIPP: When you say in front of the door you're referring to in Plein Street. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that's correct.
MR TIPP: In any of the groups that went past that morning before the main incident, did you notice any firearms amongst the group?
MR LLALE: To mention all the groups, most of the groups that passed on that day most of them had pistols in their hands especially the group which I referred earlier on they had pistol in their hands but now I can't confirm this the AK and what because you will see some of them had something which they were hiding underneath but I cannot confirm what it was, but where from the position where I was I thought in my mind it was long rifles which I couldn't see what it was, AK or panga but you could see that it was long rifles which were hidden under their jackets or blankets.
MR TIPP: Now Mr Llale it is common cause that no action was taken by you or anyone else on the parapet or any of the other guards for that matter at Shell House against any of the groups that passed, either the group in Plein Street or the group in Klein Street tearing oup posters, no action was taken, why is that?
MR LLALE: The briefing we got from our seniors now I will refer to, he is also late, Radu and Gary Kruser, was that we shall try by all means to restrain from shooting. So we shall try and control ourselves. Emotions should not be controlled by the different groups which were passing. We should know our objectives why we are there so we shall try by all means that you don't shoot unnecessarily.
MR TIPP: Now we know that at a certain point in time you in fact did shoot. I'd like you Mr Llale to take your time and tell the committee how it came about what, what led up to the main shooting incident?
MR LLALE: To the committee I would like to express myself in a language that I understand better in when it come to this because I think at some stage I will have problems if I have to express myself in English.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale you will have to put on those earphones and then select the channel that is giving you Zulu. I am not quite sure what channel that is.
MR LAX: Channel 2 is Zulu.
MR LAX: Sorry channel 1.
MR LAX: Is English isn't it?
INTERPRETER: That is correct.
MR TIPP: Channel 4 we've now been told is Zulu sorry.
MR LLALE: Yes I do have channel 4.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale you must now listen for the interpreter not for me so don't look at me. Can you hear the interpreting into Zulu.
Mr Llale I was asking you to please describe how it came about that you got involved in the main shooting. What led up to it. How you came to be at the spot where you finally shot?
MR LLALE: I am not sure about the time I think it was quarter to eleven. I was coming from the toilets and I was deployed to remain on the parapet. And as I went to the parapet I heard some singing, I heard two shots. I think I heard some shots in the air they were coming from de Villiers Street. At that very same corner I saw Jagwa Molefe approaching that corner. As he looked back he called to me and said I must come and see, witness some scene and I proceeded to Jagwr and we got to the corner. We observed ... (intervention)
MR TIPP: We are finding it difficult to keep up with you at this pace and I do think it is hard on the Interpreters as well.
MS KHAMPEPE: Sir could you please lower your pace.
MR LLALE: Should I start from scratch or should I just continue? Maybe you didn't get some of the names. Could you just indicate to me as to where I should start?
MR TIPP: The point where Mr Molefe called you and take the committee through it from there.
MR LLALE: Jagwa Molefe called me. I ran towards the place where he was calling me. When I got to him he was showing me a group of people who had congregated there, they were from Wanderers Street and they were proceeding to de Villiers Street.
As I lifted my head I saw that there were two groups. There was one group which was proceeding towards King George Street connecting to Shell House or going towards Shell House. We concentrated mainly on the group that was at de Villiers Street because they looked quite wild and violent as compared to the other group which was at King Georges Street.
MR TIPP: Was that the group that was coming down King George, was that the group that was coming from Noord Street towards de Villiers, is that the one you're referring to?
MR LLALE: Yes that is the one.
MR TIPP: Try and be a bit slower than you even are at the moment.
MR LLALE: As we were still standing there with Molefe just watching the group we saw one man amongst the group, amongst the marchers, who was wearing a red T-shirt and he had a AK-47 in his possession. And what surprised me even more was that there had been other groups of marchers which had gone past Shell House but we hadn't seen anything amiss with them and now this group there was this man with the red T-shirt who was displaying his firearm. That shocked me and Jagwa at the time was showing me the other people who had revolvers with them or shotguns.
And this group came dancing until they came to an intersection of King George and de Villiers. As we were still watching, that is Jagwa and myself, we had been joined by Steve Moolman by then we saw some police just underneath the parapet that is where we were, they were approaching from underneath towards this group which had congregated at the intersection that I had referred to earlier on.
MR TIPP: How many policemen were there?
MR LLALE: There were two of them.
MR TIPP: And what did you see them doing?
MR LLALE: As they were going to these marchers they lifted their hands, as I am indicating they were trying to block them so that they couldn't go through King George Street.
MR TIPP: The witness indicates with both arms outstretched. Please continue Mr Llale.
MR LLALE: As we were still watching the proceedings and the police there was this man, I don't know whether he was an Induna, he was addressing the crowd at some stage and they were calling theie war cries "usuthu". I don't know what he was saying to them but they kept on replying saying "usuthu". And the police were trying to block at some stage. I think this policeman was stabbed with an assegaai and he had to turn back and run towards the parapet.
MR TIPP: When you say the policeman ran back, in which direction did he run?
MR LLALE: If I remember well he went back the same direction I think towards Plein Street. Because Plein and de Villiers are parallel to each other so he went back to Plain Street.
MR TIPP: What happened after this?
MR LLALE: As we were still surprised as to what was going on we heard some gunfire which sounded like an automatic rifle and Jagwa threw me to the ground. He also fell on top of me, or both of us fell on to the ground. We were next to each other and I saw Jagwa standing and he also fired because he had an AK-47 with him and he was firing in the air.
And there was so much noise this automatic rifle caused so much noise so I ran to the opposite direction from Jagwa's and as I was running I could hear a lot of gunfire. There was an exchange of gunfire now from below the parapet.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale the first shooting that you heard the automatic gunfire that you were talking about did you have any idea where that gunfire was directed?
MR LLALE: I never saw the person who fired the gun but as I've already said that I saw a certain man who was wearing a red T-shirt who had an AK-47 with him. So to me I thought that it was coming from that person who was amongst the marchers.
MR TIPP: Tell the committee about your running away from where Mr Molefe was shooting, if you could take it up from there tell the committee what happened?
MR LLALE: As I've already pointed out that what made me lift myself from the ground was this noise which was coming from Jaguar's firearm and I ran towards the opposite direction leaving Jagwa behind and as I was running I could hear that there was more gunfire. The gunfire was intensifying.
I went into some alcove. I've written it in my application. I climbed on top of the alcove trying to get a view as to what was happening. I could see the marchers were going past the pharmacy, they were at the pharmacy at that moment because I am just going to illustrate this. When you are on the parapet there are certain places that you do see or certain areas that you are able to see. You are able to see part of the street up to the pavement and where the shops start and the person that I had seen earlier on with the red T-shirt on was running on the other side of the pharmacy.
MR TIPP: When you say he was running on the other side of the pharmacy do you mean he was running on the other side of the road past the pharmacy, is that what you are saying?
MR LLALE: Yes that is what I mean.
MR TIPP: What was he doing this man with the red T-shirt?
MR LLALE: There was a lot of gunfire at that stage but what I cannot verify is whether this gun was the one that was being fired but the way he brandished the weapon I think he was shooting but I cannot confirm because the sound of that gunfire resembled the sound that's been made by an AK when it is being fired.
MR TIPP: What did you do?
MR LLALE: I had a shotgun. I would like to point out that as I am saying this it was a very fast event. It happened within seconds. But the manner in which I am going to illustrate it, it really happened fast so I stood up, I cocked my gun and I pointed towards the direction of the man and I started firing.
MR TIPP: At that time how many shots did you fire?
MR LLALE: Shotgun is not like an automatic rifle you fire once and you have to reload or change. I think I shot only once, I fired once.
MR TIPP: Where did you aim when you fired your shotgun for the first time?
MR LLALE: As I've already said these people were running very fast but I was pointing towards the direction of the man with the red T-shirt and that's when I fired and shot.
MR TIPP: Immediately after firing what did you do?
MR LLALE: I was also scared of this man. I went down quickly and I started cocking my gun once more and I lifted myself up and the situation had now changed, because before the marchers were running towards Plein but now, the second time around, there was a lot of confusion. They were running in all directions some were going forth, some were going to the sides, and I realised that I did not shoot this man the first time around. So there were a lot of confusion at that junction. And people were running in all directions.
The very same man who had the weapon that I had referred to was now reversing somehow.
MR TIPP: When you say reversing, what do you mean?
MR LLALE: When I say he was reversing what I mean is, he was going backwards, his body was facing towards Plein Street. I think he did realise that there was somebody who was firing from the parapet. He looked very confused at that stage. He did not know which angle to concentrate, whether to concentrate on the parapet or at another direction. And there were other people with assegaais as well as shields and they were not going forth at that time. They were milling all around the place running to every direction.
MR TIPP: When you say he was reversing do I understand from your explanation that he was moving backwards with his with his body still faced towards Plein Street that he was somehow retreating, is that what you are saying?
MR LLALE: According my observation at the time, because I could still hear some gunfire, as I pointed out that this happened within a short space of time, I don't know whether he's the one that was firing but I could hear some gunfire and I thought he was trying to get some place to shield himself or to hide. Because where he was standing before he was very exposed, so I thought he was actually looking for some place to hide so that he can fire without us seeing him. That's what I meant.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale I don't know if you've heard my question or understood it. My question is when you say he was reversing are you saying he was he was retreating? Is that is that what you're saying?
MR LLALE: I don't know, maybe it is the way I am expressing myself. When I say he was now retreating his body was not facing me his front was facing another direction. The direction I am pointing. He was looking in front and up front as I am indicating so he was going backwards.
MR TIPP: And he was still looking in the general direction of Plein Street is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that's why I say I don't want to confine myself to the that he was facing one direction. He was first facing us as well as Plein Street. He was not stable in one direction. I think he was looking to other people who were in the front and at the same time trying to concentrate on us as I am indicating, but he was actually going backwards somehow. He was no longer coming straight to us.
MR TIPP: But what did you then do at that point?
MR LLALE: I fired the second time, that was my second bullet now, towards his direction. Immediately after having shot I did not look as to what had happened because I thought that he would direct his fire at me and then I went down.
MR TIPP: Why did you fire the first shot in the direction of this man with, with the red T-shirt?
MR LLALE: I never had time to refer to all the instructions. What brought me to the parapet was that it had been said before that if it could happen that such a situation prevails, we at the parapet, our main job was to try and prevent these people from getting into Shell House.
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Llale the question is why did you shoot to the direction of the man with the red T-shirt? Please don't get carried away.
MR LLALE: The reason why I shot was that I saw this man as a threat to the frontline security guys. The manner in which he was running and the fact that there was some gunfire I realise that they were in danger, we were in danger as well, that's why I shot at him.
MR TIPP: After you came up again just before you fired the second shot you saw that the man was still there but at this point you say he was reversing, why did you fire the second shot?
MR LLALE: It didn't really occur to me that he was running away. I told myself that he wanted to position himself better in order to aim and shoot at us, that's why I shot at his direction once more.
MR TIPP: What happened after you fired the second shot?
MR LLALE: I went down the parapet and as I approached once more he was not in my view. I couldn't see him properly and a number of people were lying on the ground on that very same direction at which I was firing. There were lot of people on the pavement lying on the ground. I could see that some were injured but the majority was lying on the ground.
MR TIPP: Why did you not fire again?
MR LLALE: I realised that there was no reason for me to continue shooting because the person that I perceived as a dangerous person much more than the others....
MR LAX: I didn't hear the answer.
MR LLALE: I'll try to be slow I am a fast speaker. The reason why I did not continue shooting or shooting for the third time is that the first time I shot I did not see this person and the rest of the people now were lying on the ground. It was only a few people who were running away from the scene, and I did not perceive them as a threat because a number of them were now lying on the ground now and I felt they posed no danger to us in that position or situation.
MR TIPP: Did you see the man in the red T-shirt again after that? This is after this the second time that you shot. Did you see the man ever again?
MR LLALE: No I didn't, not amongst the people who were lying on the ground.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale you just told the committee that when you looked over the parapet after you fired the second shot, this is now after you've come up again, you saw people lying in the direction which you had shot, do you concede that the shot which you fired at the man in the red T-shirt that certain of the pellets from that shot could have hit the people who you saw lying on the ground after that?
MR LLALE: Yes I did think because he was not alone on that spot. There were some other people around him. So I would concede that there are some that were killed by my shots or my pellets.
MR TIPP: Do you know that for a fact or are you conceding it as a possibility that people could have been killed or injured by your shot?
MR LLALE: I concede to it as a possibility, I don't consider it to be a fact. I am not very sure that's why I say it is possible that it happened because there were other people milling around this particular guy so it's possible that I hit them and injured them.
MR TIPP: Also Mr Llale when you fired your first shot were there people in the vicinity of this man in the red T-shirt who could have been hit and either killed injured by that shot of yours?
MR LLALE: Yes that is possible.
MR TIPP: You've also told the Committee that when you fired the second shot that there the people or the members of the crowd around this man with the red T-shirt they were moving in all directions, now were any of them moving away from you?
MR LLALE: I think that is also a possibility, that's why I was saying they were running in all directions. Some were running towards the corner, that is the corner of de Villiers and King George and I think they felt that they should run towards that direction.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale do you therefore concede that it is possible that a number of the marchers could've been killed or injured by you having shot and that they could've been shot in the back?
MR LLALE: Yes I do concede to that.
MR TIPP: You've since been shown the medical evidence or told about the medical evidence and you were told that there are four of the deceased who were shot from the back. Just for completeness sake Mr Llale you concede that it is possible that any one of those four could have been struck by one or other of the shots that you fired. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that is correct.
MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee why you believed it was necessary for you, at the time, why you believed for you to have fired those two shots. What in essence was happening that you felt needed to be responded to by your shots?
MR LLALE: At the time I saw people who were dangerous who were charging the Shell House. And the second thing was that as there was this man who was wearing this red T-shirt and brandishing this dangerous weapon I realised that if I did not shoot him he was going to pose more of a threat to us as well as other people that I was working with. So I felt it was my duty to do something in order to prevent this man from doing anything to the people that I was working with so I made it my duty to nip him in the bud before he could do anything. I realise that if this guy was left to act in an irresponsible manner I was going to hold myself responsible at the end of the day if people could be killed.
MR TIPP: Who do you fear people could've been killed if you had not taken action, who were those people?
MR LLALE: The first people were some guards who were outside as well as the people inside the building for instance Joe Nhlanhla. I was responsible to safeguard Joe Nlanhla's life. Thabo Mbeki as well and other diplomats as well as the office workers within the house.
MR TIPP: ....at the time what would've happened if the marchers had in fact gained access to Shell House and people had been killed, what did you think would then happen?
MR LLALE: What was uppermost in my mind at that time was that if they gained access there were people at the foyer, and during that day we were not working, it was not a normal working day, there were some leaders who were within the building itself. They could've gained access and killed some of the leaders and we wouldn't have been able to proceed towards the elections and we wouldn't have been able to gain democracy.
MR TIPP: You say in your amnesty application at page 105 that, as you've just said now, that the elections wouldn't have taken place and the country would've been plunged - would've been in a state of civil war. Why did you think that would happen if the marchers had gained access to Shell House?
MR LLALE: I'll be very brief in answering this question. What I'll say is I remember very well that there was an incident that happened in Boiphatong when we were with the President together with his bodyguards. When we got to Boipatong the people were quite violent they wanted to fight the president asking him as to why he allowed such a situation to happen whereby they were getting killed. I had already seen the anger in the people and that if these people could get into the building and kill the leaders everybody, especially the youth of that time, wouldn't have accepted that there was going to be some state of war especially against the hostel residents.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale now that you concede the possibility that people could have been injured or killed by you as they were running away, this is particularly so in relation to your second shot that you fired, what feelings do you have about that acknowledging that possibility that you could've been responsible for their deaths or their injuries?
MR LLALE: I don't know whether - let me just talk about the people who died. I felt very bad because it was a large number of people who died. As far as I am concerned it is not only people who died in that Shell House incident but within the country at large the organisers who had organised the march are also to blame. Why didn't they make proper preparations for this meeting? Because some of the people who died are not particularly IFP members, but they were killed on that day because of the state of violence that prevailed during that day.
MR TIPP: Mr Llale I want you to confine yourself to the people who could've been shot by you in the back as they were running away. I want to know do you have any feelings in relation to them, bearing in mind the feelings you have in relation to the other people who died in Johannesburg on that day, in relation to the people who whose deaths you could be responsible for or whose injuries you could be responsible for, what are your feelings in that regard?
MR LLALE: My feelings haven't changed. I express a lot of regret with regard to the people who died or might have died under my hand because human life is very precious. Even a thief you don't wish to kill a thief. So I am not a cold-blooded murderer. I express a lot of regret because I know that some members of the gallery have lost their loved ones. They've lost members of their families and some are orphans and others widows so that doesn't gell well with me.
MR TIPP: Just to conclude Mr Llale in respect of those people who could've been injured or killed by you as they were running away those shots, particularly your second shot, that you now seek amnesty for, is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes that is correct.
MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions.
MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairperson by agreement in the parties I will go first.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DORFLING: Mr Llale are you going to make use of the interpreter or are you going to respond in English now?
MR LLALE: I don't know whether it will be correct maybe there is very short answers that will require me to answer in English I will do that.
MR DORFLING:: Sir I am going to pose my questions in English then you can choose whether you want to make use of the interpreter or not.
Do I understand your position to be today that you are requesting the committee to consider amnesty for you with regard to the second shot?
MR LLALE: In generally I might concede a second shot but they are shots that I fired that day.
MR DORFLING:: Do you also wish to apply for amnesty with regard to the first shot you fired? Is that your intention today?
MR LLALE: Yes I've already said that. I am not going to say the first or the second shot because the people who died they were shot behind so there was no first or second shot. People who shot at that particular time were shot when they were turned their back on us.
MR DORFLING:: Are you conceding therefore that both your first and second shot might have been unjustified on the day?
MR LLALE: By the time I was shooting I had a reason to shoot and there was a reason because there was a particular person with an AK on my focus but since seeing that on that day this particular person was not shot. People who had already turned their back on me were shot so I am not saying it was justified but I can say maybe I was reckless but not to say I was not justified.
MR DORFLING:: Are you therefore conceding that your actual target, the gentleman with the red T-shirt was not hit by you?
MR LLALE: I concede to that.
MR DORFLING:: Now Sir you made an application which is contained at pages 102 to 108 of exhibit or bundle C of the papers. You've already confirmed the correctness of that application. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: That's correct.
MR DORFLING:: I've pointed out earlier this morning to Mr Moolman that both his application form and your application form the two are virtually identical on material aspects. Do you accept that proposition sir?
MR LLALE: Yes I accept that.
MR DORFLING:: How did it come about that the two applications are so similar?
MR LLALE: I think Mr Moolman has tried to explain this. I took my application home with me. I wrote everything here. The following morning where I didn't understand for instance there is a question of self- defence you needed people with medical, what did I say, legal advisers to advise on matters of legal defence. Then on that day Steve Moolman was there when we asked our questions to our legal advisers. The he said to me that I should explain some aspect which are written the way he didn't understand like page 103 where it said
"I shot at a group of IFP marchers...."
and other things which now I can't remember very well but I remember him asking me about similar things, then I had to explain to him in Sotho that this is what I said here and this is what I said there, and I also gave him my own application to read. Then after that I don't know really whether he did record everything that is here but I remember myself giving this to Moolman to read it over.
MR DORFLING:: So at that the time when you parted with your application form you weren't present with Moolman any longer. He left with your application form?
MR LLALE: I think on our consultation it was three of us. It was Jagwe, me and Moolman we were given these forms and then we had to go home with the forms and then when I was filling these things I was at home, then I had to come back for consultation where we met the three of, that's Jagwa, me and Moolman and his form, Moolman, was not completed fully, names and blah, blah was there but there were things that he needed an explanation, hence I explained to him in Sotho then I gave him my application to see how I wrote some of the things there.
MR DORFLING:: Did you and him then part ways did he leave with your application in his possession?
MR LLALE: No.
MR DORFLING:: What happened Sir did he read your application in your presence is that the facts?
MR LLALE: Yes that is what I am trying to say.
MR DORFLING:: And did he then complete his application by making use of your answers?
MR LLALE: I think this is what happened on that day but I explained everything and his problem was how to write it in English. So I think then he decided to write similar words that have been written here. That is what I think happened. I didn't ask him then because I only gave him mine to refer this is what I have written Steve, then I gave it to him. Maybe he might have decided to write the similar words which are here.
MR DORFLING:: Did he fill in his form in your presence?
MR LLALE: As I have indicated before that we took different ways when we were give forms but the following day when we came back some of the details were not filled in, like the one I've indicated to him. That is only where he decided to fill them in. Hence I am saying maybe he might have took them from my application as they were written to his application.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was were you together when he filled in his form?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MR DORFLING:: And did he use your form to complete his did he look at yours then fill in his form Sir?
MR LLALE: I think that is what happened on that day.
MR DORFLING:: But why do you say you think that is what happened surely you must have either seen it happening or you wouldn't have seen it happening Sir?
MR LLALE: No to be honest to you our legal advisers also asked us similar questions that you are asking to us that, there is a problem here Steve Moolman and your application they look similar. Then Steve didn't tell me that time no that I wrote everything that you wrote here. So I also discovered when we were asked by our lawyers you know your application form look similar how it happened. Then he said no I remember he took your CV, your application, he was saying to me that he remembers very well that he took my form and then completed his. But after he had explained things, so he might have saw the things similar to how I saw them, because here he is speaking about the marchers which we all know who were there. So I also said to him these were the people who we killed that day. So as I am saying I explained to him why I wrote all these words here.
MR DORFLING:: Do I understand your evidence correctly that what is contained in your application form from pages 102 to 108 are your own words, they were not taken from somebody elses form, they weren't suggested by somebody else, these are the words you chose to use. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes, yes that's correct.
MR DORFLING:: So if Mr Moolman's form looks very similar to yours or almost identical to yours in the almost all respects and responds to almost all the questions it could only mean one thing he copied from your form?
MR LLALE: I don't know what to say it's correct to use I think, but I think that is what happened on that day.
MR DORFLING:: Sir may we refer to your application and specifically at page 111 at paragraph 11.
MR LLALE: Yeah, I got it.
MR DORFLING:: Could you please just take your time and read paragraph 11, Sir.
MR LLALE: I've completed.
MR DORFLING:: Now do you agree with me Sir if one reads paragraph 11 it is quite clear that from the reading of this paragraph you didn't observe any firearms amongst the crowd at least until such time as the two policemen tried to divert or stop the marchers. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: According to what is written in my statement then I didn't put those things. It is true.
MR DORFLING:: It does not mention a single firearm do you agree?
MR LLALE: I agree. Are you only relating to this paragraph 11?
MR DORFLING:: We are dealing with the point in time until such time as you saw the two policemen approaching the marchers. So it's the marchers coming down de Villiers Street, they enter into the corner, two policemen approach them and they turn and run away. Until such time your statement does not indicate that any person - that you saw any person with a firearm amongst the marchers. Is that correct?
MR LLALE: Yes it is correct.
MR DORFLING:: Can you today explain what kind of firearms you saw until that point in time?
MR LLALE: If I recall I said at the inquest that I saw only pistols and one AK-47 but these weren't pistols which were not more than five if I had to remember well.
MR DORFLING:: Are you saying today as far as you recall you saw pistols and one firearm, being the AK-47?
MR LLALE: Not, not only today even to Mr Judge Nugent I said the same thing.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I didn't hear that clearly. Just say that again please?
MR LLALE: The question was asked that am I only saying this today only. So I am saying if I recall I said this to Judge Nugent and I am saying it now that I saw pistols and only one AK-47.
MR DORFLING:: Apart from the pistols you saw and the one AK-47 can you recall having seen any other firearms with the marchers until such time as the two policemen approach them?
MR LLALE: If you refer to other marchers which passed Shell House earlier on, yes, I did see some pistols but the long firearms were concealed, I couldn't identify them whether it was AK or shotguns because they were concealed.
MR DORFLING:: Surely you would agree with me that a very prominent figure or person amongst the marchers on the day was the person who you perceived to have been attacking you, to wit the person with the red T-shirt and the AK-47?
MR LLALE: That's, that's correct.
MR DORFLING:: Why don't you make any mention of him in your statement Sir?
MR LLALE: When I was writing this statement I think it was a year ago I only generalised that on that day people fired at us but I didn't specify who fired at us who did what, who did what. The details were not here but I knew that in court I will have to be asked about these automatic weapons, it's when I am going to explain further.
MR DORFLING:: No but Sir the attack you had to wear off, the attack against which you had to retaliate was the attack which you perceived to have been coming from the man with the AK-47 rifle. Why is that not in your statement?
MR LLALE: I - as I am saying to you I don't know whether you've read my statement. It might not be the way you saw it but in paragraph 11, I think it's 1.10 because you are referring me to 1.11, but in 1.10 I think there is somewhere it says some of the marchers wore red T-shirts. As I am saying I have generalised but in the inquest I was saying things as I was asked then I had to say this because in the inquest you only answered what you were asked.
MR DORFLING:: Sir I think you might be trying or you try to refer to paragraph 10 at the top of the page, at page 111 of exhibit C or bundle C where you say that
"...there were people with firearms and that these with firearms tended to go into the middle of the march and many were wearing red T-shirts."
Is that what you are referring to?
MR LLALE: Yes.
MR DORFLING:: But Mr Llale, with the greatest respect, that doesn't answer the question. Why don't you mention the specific individual that was attacking you?
MR LLALE: In relation to this statement I'm saying I was not speaking about individuals I was speaking about marchers. As I am saying I generalised in this statement but in court I was dealing with details but here I have just generalised that some of them were wearing T-shirts, they had firearms and automatic weapons. It was the general thing here but in court I had to explain to each and everything that is in this statement.
MS KHAMPEPE: But Mr Llale the people that you were referring to as having worn red T-shirts in paragraph 10 do not that relate to the main incident? I think that is the problem of Mr Dorfling.
MR DORFLING:: If I may just add to that Mr Llale, it actually relates to the groups which you saw earlier that morning, previous groups in other words, and that is the problem I have why is that not why don't you deal with this specific individual in your statement? Paragraph 10 doesn't assist you sir because it doesn't relate to that gentleman who you saw at the time of the main shooting.
MR LLALE: I don't know Sir but maybe I am running away from your question but in this statement it's only having three pages. I am saying to you here things are just put in a general way. This is when I was writing it, this is how I understood that. Because we were called in a very short time before I went to the inquest so I had to generalise things.
But after I've wrote this statement most things came but already then the statement was already submitted to the Attorney-General. As I went to Caroline who was our lawyers I said to him that things that are not contained here I have just remembered them after I've wrote the statement. They said we don't see anything wrong with it because you are actually mentioning people wearing red T-shirts and what-what so you will have to explain in court to Nugent what you saw and that - and which I did on that day.
I know that I am not answering that question put to me. I agree with you. I am not running away from the question that is not here in the last event I saw a person wearing a red T-shirt, it's not here I agree with you.
JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Llale are suggesting that the reason why you did not mention the man with the T-shirt, the red T-shirt was because it didn't occur to your mind when you made this statement?
MR LLALE: It did occur Sir but what I am trying to say is on the day when I was writing this statement I've generalised things, that means I was not saying things as step by step as it were happening. Then I was given the task that in court we will have a fair chance of explaining some of the details. As I am saying it is true that the other details are not here but you will find them here in Judge Nugent that this is what you said. They are not contained in here but I was able to answer them in that court. This is what I am trying to say.
JUDGE NGCOBO: It was just that I was puzzled by your long response in regard to what you made reference to certain things that were not contained in your statement that was supposed to be there.
MR DORFLING:: And now Mr Llale do you agree with me that what your statement tries to convey is that you were acting in what we call in terms, in self-defence? In other words you were trying to defend yourself or other people or property at the time when you were shooting. Is that what you are trying to convey in your statement?
MR LLALE: Yes Sir.
MR DORFLING: Now how does it happen that such a vital aspect of what you were doing, in other words retaliating an attack of a person with a AK-47 gets omitted from your statement?
MR LAX: Mr Dorfling with all due respect ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...I think he has said already that he has been talking in general terms I think you've asked this question so many times. He can't take it any further. He said that if he were asked questions in detail in court he would answer it. Here he's given a general account of it. In your address you may make what you want about that point.
MR LAX: Just one thing I wanted to add Mr Dorfling if you read paragraph 12 he talks about being shot at by some of the marchers so you are focusing on paragraph 11 which was just before that, but paragraph 12 he does talk about it. So I'm just saying it is not as if he left out the fact that somebody shot at him or that there was shooting.
MR DORFLING: Honourable member of the committee I am getting to paragraph 12 because a further problem arises from reading of paragraph 12. I would like to deal to deal specifically with paragraph 12.
Do you agree Mr Llale that on a reading of paragraph 12 the following appears. You initially at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street you then run on the parapet to what you call the second alcove on the parapet, and what you are trying to convey here is that you then stood up at the second alcove quickly stood up and fired one shot, took cover again then stood up quickly again took or fired a second shot and then took cover again. Is that what you were trying to convey in paragraph 12?
MR LLALE: As I said things here were put in a general term but it explained that to stood up and go down what I was doing in court because in here I said I shot at the marchers. Then I had to explain which marcher were you shooting, and then I had to say which marcher I was shooting.
MR DORFLING:: Yes Sir on the contrary what appears on paragraph 12 is that you aimed your two which happened in quick succession in the direction of the marchers in general. You say here that
"I stood up and fired at the marchers. I took cover again and then fired a second shot and then took cover again in the general direction of the marchers".
MR LLALE: In the true sense of the matter if I had to isolate the man with the AK other people would die who were not carrying AKs, they were part of the marchers, hence I will use the name marchers because if I had to only concentrate on one person who was not even shot that day I think I will be misdirecting myself. But on that day this person was amongst the marchers. I am not trying to say, to justify my shooting by saying only this person there were marchers around him, as I am saying marchers. Then you will have to go further asking me questions then I will explain actually in what direction my firearm was pointing at.
MR TIPP: Chairperson my learned friend Mr Dorfling says that his statements says that I fired in the general direction of the marchers that is not what the statement says. My learned friend has added some words to the witness' statement. The statement says
"They started rushing forward and shot at us with automatic weapons...."
which is the one part my learned friend left out and - "Then when I got to the second alcove I quickly stood up and fired at the marchers".
It doesn't say there in the general direction of the marchers.
ADV DORFLING: Mr Chair with respect that's why it was put to the witness that this is the impression that is being created by paragraph 12 of his statement, that the witness, the applicant, fired in the general direction of marchers in general and not aiming at anybody in particula, and that is the impression that one gains from paragraph 12.
MR LLALE: I think the name general is not going to be used in each and every sentence as I am saying. The question here is did you just stand up and shoot at the marchers? Then one has to respond at that, that which marcher was that. That is why I am saying to you I don't want to direct my answers to an individual whereas on that day there was no individual which was more than other, everybody who was there had the same common mind. As I am saying to you let's not generalise everything in here. There are things that are general but there are things that - they still will be here nobody removed them but I will have to explain to each and every question, not to generalise everything Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think that the suggestion that is being put to you is that you said that here was this man with the T-shirt with an AK-47 and you fired at him. These paragraphs don't make specific reference to you firing at that particular man. It says you fired at the marchers. And that the fact that you didn't mention that you fired at the man with the T-shirt is the crux of this question that's being put to you, that's all.
MR LLALE: Yes I understand but you see it is true that it is not contained in paragraph 12 that I shot at a specific person, it is not contained, yes, it's true that I agree with you.
ADV DORFLING: Sir did you convey to your legal representatives that you aimed your fire at a person in specific?
MR LLALE: I've explained this before that Caroline who is one of the lawyers after the statement already has been given to the Attorney-General, I went to him and said, he said to me but you are mentioning here people with automatic weapons because your statement is already gone. Go to court and explain this in details. This is what I did. And I think I don't know whether it was you or Ferreira. This question was asked over and over again in the inquest. I had to explain the same explanation I don't know whether you don't actually take this explanation because we are here.
MR DORFLING:: Mr Llale I am asking you to explain whether you conveyed this to your legal representative that you fired at a specific individual where as your statement just reflects your shooting in general terms?
CHAIRPERSON: He has explained as best as he can you know. He said that after he had told the attorney that this hasn't been specifically put, the attorney says, when you go to court you can give the details. This adequately conveys what you've tried to do. Now that is the explanation you've got before you.
ADV DORFLING: Sir may I refer you to page 3715 of the record of the inquest proceedings at line 13 and further.
MR LLALE: Pardon, you said 37...?
MR DORFLING:: 3715 at lines 13 onwards. You're here being questioned specifically about the fact that the person with the AK-47 has not been mentioned in your statement and then you're specifically asked whether this was conveyed to your attorneys. And what is recorded at this page is the following.
"Sir did you tell your attorneys that you fired at this person? --- No I told the attorneys that I was shooting at the marchers but I did not single out this person because he was also a marcher he was also one of the marchers.
So what you told your attorneys was I just shot at the marchers. Is that correct? --- Well that is how one would construct it but that is not what I meant when I said in my language that I shot at the people including him".
That's lines 13 to 20. You were asked the very same question at the inquest proceedings and you explained that you did not convey that to your attorneys you actually just said you shot at the marchers in general.
MR TIPP: Chairperson with all due respect to my learned friend if he goes on to read the very next question the question is.
"Did you tell your attorneys that you shot at the marchers? --- Yes, but particularly concentrating on this person, this person who was most dangerous to me.
And is that what you told your attorneys? --- Yes."
So with all due respect my learned friend should read all the evidence to the witness not just a selected passage.
MR DORFLING:: With the greatest respect Mr Chair the witness now testified it only after him having made the statement did he convey such information to the attorneys. That was the specific question that was asked pertaining to whether he at that time conveyed that to the attorneys and the answer was quite clear. "No I just said I shot at the marchers in general".
Mr Chair I see that it is four o' clock should I carry on. Yes I won't finish very soon.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
