Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, are you appearing for the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Mr Patrick Radebe. It's on page 128.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can you hear?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names, Patrick Radebe?

PATRICK MOZAMASHLUBE RADEBE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time?

MR RADEBE: It was Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: When was that when you joined the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents where shots were fired towards anybody during the time of your membership of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: During the time when you were a Self Defence Unit member, were you at any stage in possession of an AK47 or any form of firearm which you used towards or against anybody?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Radebe, if you don't understand a question, please say so, so that we can correctly follow the procedure here.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I used to carry an AK47 around.

MR SIBEKO: Now name, or tell us about all the incidents in which you were involved whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit.

MR RADEBE: Mbuso Kambule killed Gregory Mkwanazi and it so happened that when I woke up in the morning, I learnt that Mbuso has killed Gregory Mkwanazi. In that very same morning Mbuso came to ask for forgiveness. At the same time we left with him and we were taking him to the office at Mkwaie.

We picked him up at 10 o'clock. We arrived at 10, driving in a kombi. We took him and we went to the circle with him. When we arrived there we put him at the circle and then started beating him up. Dan is the person who was in my company.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, before you proceed, Mr Radebe, who is Gregory Mkwanazi and how was he related to you or to any of the Self Defence Unit members, or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: And then who is Mbuso, was he also a member of the Self Defence Unit or was he a member of the community, or was a member of the IFP?

MR RADEBE: He was a member of the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Right. Your evidence is to the effect that Mbuso killed Gregory, how do you know that Sir?

MR RADEBE: I came to know this about this information because Dan was present when he was being beaten up the previous evening.

MR SIBEKO: Now it's for the second time in your testimony that you so and so hit so and so, can you specify exactly what you mean by that term "hit"? If you say he was shot, please say so straight or if you say he was assaulted, please say so straight. We've got to clarify that term "hit".

MR RADEBE: He was shot at his parents' home in the house.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, who is "he"? I'm lost. Who was shot?

MR RADEBE: It was Gregory Mkwanazi.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that Gregory Mkwanazi was shot at by Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: That was in the evening, and the following morning when you went to Gregory Mkwanazi's place, you say Mbuso came in to ask for apologies, is that what you say?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you took Mbuso to your offices at Mkwaie, where you were to fetch him at about 10 o'clock the same morning, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then you went there at 10 o'clock, that is you went to Mkwaie at your offices to fetch him at 10 o'clock and you took him to a circle, is that what you said?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now which circle are you referring to here, because if I'm not mistaken there are many circles at Thokoza.

MR RADEBE: It is Xhaba Street.

MR SIBEKO: What was the purpose of you taking Mbuso to that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: We had this policy that when a person has killed another one, he too should be killed.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso at Mkwaie to Xhaba Street, to that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who else was there, do you remember?

MR RADEBE: It was Langa, Langa Nxumalo, Bobby Tshabalala as well, Dan Radebe was also present.

ADV SANDI: So if I understand you correctly, Mr Radebe, are you saying this gentleman, Mbuso, was taken to the circle so that he could be killed?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did he give an explanation as to how the killing of Mkwanazi had happened?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did. They explained to me that when he opened the door he was shot with an AK47 and his brains split all over the place.

ADV SANDI: Was that the explanation from Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: No. I received this information from Gregory's mother.

ADV SANDI: Okay, carry on, maybe I'll understand it better as you go on.

Carry on, Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you.

Now you mentioned a few names, in other words there were only four of you who took Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street, is that what you are saying or you might have forgotten the names of other people who were also there?

MR RADEBE: That is correct. There was also this kombi person or the driver of the kombi.

MR SIBEKO: Do you by any chance remember the name of the person who was driving this kombi?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Sticks is the name.

MR SIBEKO: Right, what happened at that circle at Xhaba Street?

MR RADEBE: As we got off with him we pushed him onto the circle and Dan came and shot him with an AK47. We left him there.

MR SIBEKO: Before Dan used his AK47 to shoot at Mbuso, what did you personally do other than dragging Mbuso out of the kombi? What did you do as an act of assault or anything that had to do with inflicting injuries to Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: After having dragged him out of the kombi I manhandled him actually.

MR SIBEKO: Would you mind explaining? We were not there and we would like to know as much as you can tell us as to what actually took place. What did you do?

MR RADEBE: Before Dan shot him, I assaulted him, I manhandled him, I also kicked him. That is all that I did.

MR SIBEKO: You said you were informed or you were told by the deceased's mother, that is the mother of Gregory Mkwanazi, that Gregory opened the door and he was shot at by Mbuso. What exactly did you get from Mbuso himself, did you asking him as to what exactly happened, whether it was accidental when he shot at him or was it something that he intended? Did you try to find anything to that effect from Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: I was feeling very downhearted and I didn't want to talk or discuss the incident.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that you never asked anything from Mbuso to try to find out as to exactly what happened that led to the shooting?

MR RADEBE: No, I did not.

MR SIBEKO: Right. When you started you said Mbuso arrived at Gregory's place in the morning to apologise, did he get an opportunity of apologising or you just took him as you saw him when he came in, he never got that chance? What happened?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did get an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and apologise.

MR SIBEKO: What did he say and to who? When he arrived at Gregory's place, what did he say?

MR RADEBE: He said that he had made a mistake.

MR SIBEKO: He said he made a mistake by doing what? What did he do that was a mistake?

MR RADEBE: By killing him.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to say that he said it was a mistake that he shot at Gregory, is that what he said, is that what he meant?

MR RADEBE: Mbuso said that it was a mistake that he had shot and killed Gregory.

MR SIBEKO: Is that all you could hear before you actually removed him from the premises to this circle that you have just referred to?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Other than this incident, what other incidents were you involved in whilst you were still under the command of Mosa Msimango?

MR RADEBE: There is no other incident.

MR SIBEKO: Am I correct to state that you said that at some stage you did carry an AK47?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct but it was taken by Dan.

MR SIBEKO: I understand that at some stage - what I'm trying to find out here Sir, is that besides this incident - I mean we've got evidence to the effect that this violence took place over quite a long time, were there instances where you carried any weapon whatsoever which you used against anybody other than this person that, other than Mbuso? Any other incident where acts of violence were taking place?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I would go to the border at times and shoot, but I wasn't sure as to whether I killed or injured any people.

MR SIBEKO: By Mxeleni, are you referring to Buthelezi Street?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Besides the incident at Mxeleni or at Buthelezi Street, is there any other incident that you would want us to know about?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Now the weapon that you were using, is that the one that was taken over by Dan, to an extent that you never had any firearm whatsoever in your possession anymore?

MR RADEBE: The weapon that I'm referring to is the one that was used to kill Mbuso. I was using it before Dan took it and shot Mbuso.

MR SIBEKO: From that point onwards you never had any weapon whatsoever in your possession during the course of the violence?

MR RADEBE: He brought it back, that is Dan.

MR SIBEKO: What happened to that weapon, Sir?

MR RADEBE: ...(no English translation)

MR SIBEKO: Sir, I'm aware that you don't have any firearm with you right now, what I want to find out is where did that firearm or weapon go to? Was it handed over at the stadium, was it taken by the police, did you sell it to anybody, what did you do about that firearm?

MR RADEBE: It was taken by the military group, the soldiers.

MR SIBEKO: The incident of the killing of Mbuso and Gregory, when did that happen, which year? Do you remember? If you can't remember, say so Sir. Are you in a position to say when exactly it happened?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Question, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair.

Mr Radebe, how many times did you go to Buthelezi Street and shoot?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember.

ADV SANDI: But you went there a number of times to shoot?

MR RADEBE: There were days of rest.

ADV SANDI: Were you shooting at IFP people?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Now let us go back to the incident about Mbuso. When Mbuso came to apologise and said that this was a mistake, is that all he said? Is there anything else he said other than that?

MR RADEBE: I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Was he asked by anyone of you as to how exactly this mistake had come about?

MR RADEBE: I didn't even want to ask him.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear anyone from your group saying to Mbuso that he was lying, he was lying to say that this was a mistake?

MR RADEBE: No.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if there was any bad feeling between Mbuso and Gregory? Was there any ill-blood between the two?

MR RADEBE: No, they had an agreeable, formidable relationship, Gregory was conducting patrols with Mbuso at some stage.

ADV SANDI: What more did the mother of Mkwanazi say? You said she had said Mkwanazi was shot by Mbuso, was there anything else she said?

MR RADEBE: That's all I can say. What I've said is what she told me.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair. Gregory is Lucky, that's the same person?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, the group that went to Xhaba Street, there was Langa Lingwane, Dan Radebe and Bobby Bhani?

MR RADEBE: And Bobby.

ADV GCABASHE: ...(no English translation)

MR RADEBE: The surname is Tshabalala, Bobby Tshabalala.

ADV GCABASHE: And then finally, your AK47, you had it all along until Dan took it from you at the circle, is that right?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: In the car it was in your possession.

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was in my possession.

ADV GCABASHE: And Mosa Msimango did not know that you were taking Mbuso to the circle to kill him, he didn't know before it happened?

MR RADEBE: He knew it because we had this policy of an eye for an eye, so he was aware.

ADV GCABASHE: You say he was aware, where had he participated in the discussion on the issue? I'm just confining this strictly to Mosa, was he at Gregory's home when Mbuso came, was Mosa at the office when you took Gregory there? Because Mosa was not with you when you got into the kombi to go to the circle. Just explain that to me.

MR RADEBE: What led to him being taken to the office, Mosa was present.

ADV GCABASHE: Mosa remained behind in the office and the rest of you took Mbuso to the circle, that's how it happened?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, when you took Mbuso to the circle and when he was killed, were you acting on orders from anybody?

MR RADEBE: I explained earlier on that there was a hard and fast rule or police, that is you had taken somebody's life, your life should also be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had gone to the office first and from the office you had taken Mbuso to the circle, now when you took him from the office to the circle were you told or ordered to do that, to take him to the circle?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who gave the orders?

MR RADEBE: My commander.

CHAIRPERSON: After Dan had shot Mbuso, did he then hand back the AK47 to you?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Dan the only person that shot Mbuso?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed there on the scene?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened to his body?

MR RADEBE: I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he just shot and then you left again with the vehicle?

MR RADEBE: Yes, immediately after having taken him out of the car, the driver left with the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So after Mbuso was shot and the AK47 was handed back to you, what did you do, did you then just leave or what did you do?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, I went to put it where I was supposed to put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there a lot of people who were watching what was going on?

MR RADEBE: No, there was nobody or there weren't any people watching the incident or the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When you referred earlier to 10 o'clock, was it 10 o'clock in the evening, at night?

MR RADEBE: In the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: This circle in Xhaba Street, was that where people were normally executed?

MR RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was Mbuso taken specifically to that circle?

MR RADEBE: It just happened that we took him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the circle in the residential area, near to the houses?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any specific reason why you took him to the residential area and shot him in public?

MR RADEBE: The people were fighting or there was a fight at the time and the residents were inside their houses, they were not outside in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: But I assume that you could have killed him in a more secluded area, under less public circumstances where people would not have witnessed what was going on, not so?

MR RADEBE: We were not going to be able to do that because the soldiers as well as the stability unit were in the area patrolling, they would probably have discovered us on our way out to that secluded area.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you for any reason want the public, the residents, to take notice that you were executing the policy of a killer will be killed?

MR RADEBE: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anyone of you ever charged for this incident and arrested?

MR RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: One assumes that there must have been people who had seen what was going on?

MR RADEBE: It is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I can't understand that, it was 10 o'clock in the morning, it was in the residential area near to the houses and you arrive with the kombi and you take this person out, you assault him and you manhandled him and then he is shot with an AK47 rifle, why would people not have noticed this incident happening?

MR RADEBE: There was a fight that had broken out and there was always gunfire all the time. People were scared to venture out into the streets lest they find themselves victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you've got absolutely no idea what happened to the body after the shooting?

MR RADEBE: No, I don't because after we had shot him we sought cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mbuso have family in the township, in Thokoza?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a young person or what?

MR RADEBE: I've no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would you - you know him, how would you describe him, was he about like you, your age or young than you or older than you?

MR RADEBE: He was relatively tall. I've got no clarity whether he was older than me or younger.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was married or unmarried?

MR RADEBE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have parents living in the township, the family that you referred to earlier?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did have a family.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a mother and a father?

MR RADEBE: Could I ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR RADEBE: Was that a question or were you commenting?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm trying to find out whether Mbuso had family, you said yes he did have family in Thokoza and then I was trying to find out whether he was married or not and you said you didn't know about that, then I asked you whether he had possibly a mother or a father that lived in Thokoza.

MR RADEBE: Yes, he did have parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they are still alive, the parents?

MR RADEBE: I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I've got a few aspects, some of which I've left out in evidence-in-chief.

Sir, when we consulted on Saturday, you told me that you were receiving threats from Ntlantla Kubeka, whom you said is a brother to the late Mbuso, is that correct, do you confirm that?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: Alright, let's start here. Why is Ntlantla threatening you or harassing you, do you know the reason why he is doing that? There should be a reason why he is doing that.

MR RADEBE: Mbuso was Ntlantla's brother and whenever he sees me he always torments me and harasses me. I'm not even able to socialise or go out. He has totally destroyed my life.

MR SIBEKO: Now we'll come to that Sir, what I want to find out is, did you at any stage fight over something else other than what you have told us about, his brother? If it has to do with his late brother, how did he come to know that you are the one or you were part of the people would executed his brother? Because as far as you are concerned, nobody saw you when you did that, how did he know that you were involved in the killing of his brother?

MR RADEBE: The information was passed onto him by the driver of the getaway car, because apparently at an earlier stage they had a problem with Dan but later on they were friends and he told him all the information.

MR SIBEKO: So you are saying the driver who took you to the spot where the execution took place, quarrelled with Dan who shot that Mbuso, as a result of which he went further and told Ntlantla that his, ja, he told Ntlantla that so and so were involved in the killing of your brother, is that what you are saying?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Leah?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair. Can you just explain one small aspect to me about this policy of a killer must be killed, just generally. Did you not wait for an explanation from the killer before you killed him?

MR RADEBE: No, we could not go to the border or the street that has been referred to before, so if one kills a person, as soldiers we should also kill that person who has killed one of our soldiers.

ADV GCABASHE: So it was just a blanket policy, everybody knew this is the way it works?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it was a well-known policy.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just one other aspect, while the Chair was asking you questions, Sticks the driver drove off and left you at the circle, is that what you were saying?

MR RADEBE: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you may be excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED