CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are about to start. For the record, today is Thursday, 3rd December 1998. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee hearing applications from members of the Self Defence Unit in Thokoza.
The first matter this morning is the application of Jim Jabulane Mpele. It is reference No AM7128/97, and the application appears at page 106 of the Lusaka A bundle.
The appearances are as previously indicated on the record, the panel as well as the leader of evidence and the legal representative for the applicants, who this morning is Mr Sibeko.
Mr Mpele, good morning, do you hear me?
MR MPELE: Yes, I can hear you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JIM JABULANE MPELE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Mpele, you have applied for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: I'm looking at page 106 of your application on question 7(a), where it i s stated that you were a member of various organisations, that is the ANC Youth League, COSAS, Self Defence Unit and South African Communist Party. Is this information correct?
MR MPELE: This information is correct, sir.
MR SIBEKO: Just to find out, Mr Mpele, were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR MPELE: I was not a member of the SDU.
MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct if I say that your application is for your activities or your involvement in the Youth League, COSAS and South African Communist Party?
MR MPELE: You will be correct in that way, sir.
MR SIBEKO: During your membership to these organisations, were you ever involved in acts of violence, if so, do you mind telling us about those incidences?
MR MPELE: Yes. I took part in violent activities. It was in 1991, when COSAS had a campaign against crime. There was a problem at school, one girl was raped and the other killed by the Bad Boys gangster. As a member of COSAS, we took steps, we saw it necessary to trace those gangsters, who lived in Thokoza.
MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed, Mr Mpele, at that time you were a member of COSAS, in which school were you a student, and where is that school?
MR MPELE: I was at Lituthula Secondary School in Katlehong.
MR SIBEKO: And you say two students from Lituthula, one was raped and the other one was murdered by members of the Bad Boys gangsters, is that what you're saying?
MR MPELE: That is what I said.
MR SIBEKO: Would you be in a position to tell us, to give us the names of the two people who were victimised by the gangsters, do you know their names?
MR MPELE: I only remember the one girl, who's Phumseli, who used to live in Mgake Street. I have forgotten the other one. This happened a long time ago.
MR SIBEKO: Is Phumseli the rape victim, or was she murdered?
MR MPELE: Phumseli is the one who died.
MR SIBEKO: Proceed, Mr Mpele.
MR MPELE: It so happened that there were two schools, Phumana and Lituthula. We went out to Thokoza to search for these Bad Bays. I knew where they lived, because I resided in Thokoza, and it was next to the bottle store where we found them, and we took them with. We were taking them to the school and when we were crossing into Katlehong, a police van approached and we ran away, we managed though to run away with one of them until we reached the school. We assaulted him and he was badly injured, and the police came to pick him up after we ran away. His name was Zero, who resided in Thokoza. That is my first application.
MR SIBEKO: Do I understand you correctly that you say students from your school, that is Lituthula, together with students from Phumana High, joined forces and went to Thokoza to look for members of the Bad Boys, and you found them at or nearby Mafetem Bottle Store here in Thokoza, is that what you said?
MR MPELE: That is what I said.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of that bottle store, Mr Sibeko?
MR MPELE: Mafetem Bottle Store.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us about the number of the gangsters that you found at Mafetem Bottle Store, how many were there when you found them there?
MR MPELE: We found four of their members.
MR SIBEKO: And then how do you know that Zero, the one that you took along to your school, and the three others, were members of the Bad Boys, how do you know that?
MR MPELE: I know Zero and them, because we were once engaged in a fight.
MR SIBEKO: If I were to put it differently, sir, what was the identifying feature, were they openly harassing the community, were they openly carrying weapons, were they openly doing crime, what is it that one could identify them, even without having to get involved in a fight with either of them, if you are looking at them from the distance, how would you identify them as members of the Bad Boys?
MR MPELE: They were always in possession of firearms during the day, harassing people randomly and robbing people, that is why I realised that it was not safe to let these people go free, because I'd seen them engaged in such activities previously.
MR SIBEKO: Now you also participated in the assault on Zero. What were you using in the said assault?
MR MPELE: I used an iron bar. I was present when he was assaulted, I used an iron bar.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check, Mr Mpele, the four you found at the bottle store, did you know that these were directly involved in the killing of Phumseli and the raping of your colleague?
MR MPELE: Yes, I was sure that they took part.
MR SIBEKO: Why were you sure, Mr Mpele?
MR MPELE: The girl who died was in our school and her parents told us the description of the boys who came home and took her away.
MR SIBEKO: What description was given to you about the boys who had taken her away?
MR MPELE: They told us the clothes that they were wearing -they used to wear the same clothes, all of them.
MR SIBEKO: After the assault on Zero, do you know whether he died on that spot or he died after he was - or just before he was taken away by the police, as you said you ran away as a result of the appearance of the police?
MR MPELE: When we left, Zero was still alive, that is when the police approached, he was still alive.
MR SIBEKO: So that's the first reason why you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: But Zero did die subsequently, he did die, he's dead?
MR MPELE: He did not die.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any further incidents of violence where you also took part?
MR MPELE: Yes. This involves other boys, the one lived in Unit F, he was in the company of other boys from Thembisa. They killed a family of five in Everest. Let me put it this way, there's a boy who lived in the same street as myself, his name is Mampuru, his home is in Everest, but his granny lived in my street. Now he was co-operating with people from Everest. Now they informed him that there was a gangster that killed a family of five, they were actually going to rob the family, because they had a tavern business. Now this boy informed us then as to what happened and he told us that the people who committed this act ran away. Because we were not in loggerheads with them, we were not in good terms with them, we planned to go and catch them.
MR SIBEKO: Before you go any further Mr Mpele, your evidence is that there's a guy or a man who stays at Unit F, Thokoza, who was a friend or a gang member with other guys from Thembisa, is that what you say?
MR MPELE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: And do you know the name of this guy from Unit F?
MR MPELE: I have forgotten his name.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a moment, did you say a guy or a gang?
MR MPELE: There's a guy who stays or stayed at Unit F, Thokoza, who was part of a gang with other guys from Thembisa.
CHAIRPERSON: The gang being the Bad Boys?
MR MPELE: No, they were not the Bad Boys.
MR SIBEKO: Now, this guy from Unit F, together with his friends from Thembisa, went to this tavern at Everest, where they robbed the patrons of that tavern and killed the family members, that is five of the family members of the said tavern, is that what you say?
MR MPELE: That is what I say.
MR SIBEKO: And you, with your comrades, got that information from Lucky Mampuru, who happened to have a co-operation or a working relationship with the members of the community of Everest, is that what you say?
MR MPELE: That's what I said.
MR SIBEKO: Was Lucky Mampuru part of your organisation, that is COSAS?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: And after you got that information from Lucky Mampuru, you say you sat down and planned as to how to get back to these people, is that what you say?
MR MPELE: That is what I said.
MR SIBEKO: Then, sir, start from the point of your planning, what was planned and you carry on and tell us about what subsequently happened thereafter?
MR MPELE: It was the three of us when we sat and planned how to catch up with these boys, it was myself, Lucky and Khotso. After three weeks, we found information that they returned, it was on a Friday, but they shot in the air, on Saturday we went to Everest, we met a civic member and he told us that they were driving a grey Gallant car, called Gallant.
ADV GCABASHE: Who shot in the air, these gangsters?
MR MPELE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE: And what was Khotso's surname?
MR MPELE: I do not know his surname.
ADV GCABASHE: Do you know the name of the civic member who you met?
MR MPELE: I know him, but I've just forgotten his name.
ADV SANDI: Where was it, in Everest, that these people shot in the air?
MR MPELE: Yes, they were shooting in the air in Everest. I then said to Lucky, "Since you have an AK47 and I also have one, why can't we get ourselves a car, because they also have a car, and attack them?", then Lucky said, "That's a better idea, let's go and borrow a car", and we did not have an access to a car, we were now puzzled as to where we will get a car, and he said, "I have a friend who can borrow us a car", and I said to him, "Well, let's go", and we met him and he said he would give us the car on Sunday. Khotso did not have a gun and he said he would go and borrow one. It was on Saturday when he came back with a 9mm. It was the three of us now with the three firearms, two AK47's and a 9mm. On Sunday...
SOMETHING INAUDIBLE SAID BY ADV GCABASHE
MR MPELE: Okay.
ADV GCABASHE: Okay, continue.
MR MPELE: We left early on Sunday morning to go to the shops. Khotso came to us and told us that these people were seen in the Sotho section.
ADV GCABASHE: The Sotho section of Everest or of another area?
MR MPELE: Sotho section in Thokoza. We went back home, the owner of the car had a tuckshop and he told us that he was not going to give us the car at that moment, because he had to go and buy stock, and we said well that was okay with us because we had found someone else in Everest who would borrow us a car. We changed clothes and I borrowed a garden umbrella so that I can hide my AK47 in it. Lucky Mampuru went home, he changed his clothes, he was now in a camouflaged uniform. He had an AK47 but it wasn't as long as mine, his was very short. The three of us left, it was myself, Khotso and Lucky. We split, we split up into two groups and two went the other direction and one took the other direction. Lucky said he would take the other direction into the other street and myself and Khotso took the opposite direction into the same street. We heard shots three times and we got into a yard trying to look as to where the shots were coming from, and there was nobody running away.
ADV SANDI: Is that now you and Lucky, or Khotso, you and Khotso?
MR MPELE: That is correct, it was the two of us because we took different directions.
ADV GCABASHE: Did you think that was Lucky firing those shots, or did you think it was just totally, something totally different?
MR MPELE: That is why we ran into a certain house, because it's because we didn't know who was shooting, we had to look as to what was happening. I took out my gun from within the umbrella, I threw the umbrella outside and I cocked my gun. Khotso did the same. We kept an eye but there was nobody, we jumped fences until we reached a place where the Colt Gallant was parked outside, there was nobody, but there were bottles, beer bottles, all over the place. We then ran to stand at the corner.
MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed, the Colt Gallant that you say was parked next to that house where there were bottles of beer, is it the same Colt Gallant that was described to you by the civic leader or civic member that told you that these people were around?
MR MPELE: That is the same car.
MR SIBEKO: Mr Mpele, you say there were empty bottles of beer all over, how do you mean, were they inside the vehicle or outside, where were these empty bottles?
MR MPELE: They were on the lawn outside.
MR SIBEKO: About what time of the day is this, in the morning, in the afternoon, at night?
MR MPELE: It was ten o'clock in the morning. We looked for Lucky, we found him at a certain house and we asked him as to what happened and he told me that he had shot others and we decided to leave, because people were flocking to the scene and we hid our guns and left.
MR SIBEKO: So, in other words Lucky claimed the shots that you heard earlier on, did he say that he is the one who fired the shots that you heard earlier on?
MR MPELE: He told us that he shot.
ADV GCABASHE: He shot who? Were they gangsters he had shot, or who had he shot?
MR MPELE: He said he fired shots at the gangsters. We left for our section and we changed our clothes, so that people could not identify us. After changing our clothes, we went back. We went to the owner of the spaza shop who borrowed us his car to fetch our guns. Lucky said he knew where one member resided in Unit F and he said we should go straight there. We drove to Unit F, and when we arrived at his home, we asked his whereabouts. We were told that he was not at home and we searched the shack, we did not find him and we left. Now there's a bridge that divides Unit F and Extension 2, and a police Nyala approached in a high speed. Lucky was not a good driver, I said to him, "Please stop", otherwise we would be arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Right, proceed.
MR MPELE: He stopped the car, we jumped out of the car and ran away. We had AK47's, Khotso had a small firearm, it was invisible, ours were visible, one could see them clearly. The police chased us and I was arrested in possession of that AK47. Khotso and Lucky managed to run away, they were not arrested. When they came to see me at home on Monday, I was told that Lucky killed a person in the Sotho section and they said that they saw everyone who was in his company.
MR SIBEKO: You were arrested as a result of the AK47 that you were carrying, is that correct?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: And then, when you were in custody, your family came to visit you. That's where they told you that Lucky is said to have killed somebody at Everest and his friends were also identified, is that what you say?
ADV GCABASHE: At Sotho section, not at Everest.
MR MPELE: That's what I said. He was seen in the Sotho section, shooting. The case went on until, in court, and I was sentenced for seven years. When they arrested me, I gave them the wrong age. I heard from people that when you get arrested and you tell the authorities, you take down your age, the authorities would be lenient, but that was unfortunate, I was given seven years still. I told them that I was born in 1976, which meant I was 16 years.
CHAIRPERSON: And did they sentence you as a 16 year old?
MR MPELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: To seven years for what?
MR MPELE: For illegal possession of a firearm.
CHAIRPERSON: Where was this, which court was this?
MR MPELE: Germiston regional court 3.
MR SIBEKO: What year was this when you were sentenced?
MR MPELE: It was on the 23rd of January 1993.
MR SIBEKO: Did the Court uncover that you were lying about your age?
MR MPELE: No, they did not discover that. After President Mandela's inauguration, I qualified for indemnity.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you make an application for indemnity, did you fill in an application form, or what?
MR MPELE: I did not fill in any form, they just came to me and informed me that I was - I qualified for indemnity.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this at the prison?
MR MPELE: Yes, it was in prison when they came to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Which prison?
MR MPELE: Leeukop, Medium B, Prison.
CHAIRPERSON: And did they just release you after they told you that you qualified for indemnity?
MR MPELE: Social workers were sent home to assess the situation as to whether there was no tavern business operated at home, and my parents were called in, they were informed that I was going to be released and they were given the date on which I will be released.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure you didn't fill in any forms, application forms for indemnity?
MR MPELE: I did not fill any form, but the lawyer informed me, the lawyer who was conducting all this business, informed me that we would be released.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please proceed.
MR MPELE: I'm also praying for amnesty because I was released, I was given indemnity, juvenile indemnity, while I was not a juvenile.
MR SIBEKO: Now, Mr Mpele, we'll come back to that. At the time you - in fact your evidence is that when you sat down with Khotso and Lucky Mampuru to plan, you had an AK like he had an AK, where did you get that AK?
MR MPELE: This was not my personal AK47, it was a joint weapon that was bought from Shawela in Soweto. I do not know where Lucky got his AK from. Khotso went to borrow his shotgun.
MR SIBEKO: Now when all this happened, were members of COSAS aware that you and Lucky had arms, was it ever discussed with any of the members of your organisation?
MR MPELE: We did not discuss it with COSAS members.
MR SIBEKO: Now ...(intervention).
ADV GCABASHE: Did you discuss it with any other structure, formal structure in the community?
MR MPELE: We discussed this with this civic member after he informed us about this incident, because we did not like violence, we took law into our hands.
ADV GCABASHE: What did you discuss with the civic member, what was that discussion, just take us through it?
MR MPELE: This gentleman informed us as to how members of a family were killed. We did not tell him that we are in possession of arms and we will go and look for these people ourselves.
MR SIBEKO: When you appeared in court, who was your lawyer?
MR MPELE: It was Krish Naidoo.
MR SIBEKO: And when you were convicted and sentenced, that was only in respect of possession of the AK47?
MR MPELE: Yes, that's correct.
MR SIBEKO: You were not convicted and sentenced for any other offence, it was only for possession of the AK47?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Now will I be correct if I say that you having weapons was never discussed with either your leadership in the ANC or the SACP?
MR MPELE: You are correct.
MR SIBEKO: Will I further be correct (tape goes dead). Now, you as COSAS decided to engage in that campaign. What did you intend as an organisation, as COSAS, what did you intend to achieve by getting back to these gangsters or criminal elements in the community?
MR MPELE: These people were disturbing us in many of our campaigns. They harassed the community. When we had our mass meetings, they would go around targeting businesses. The police would think that we were involved in that and they would also harass us, and we saw that it was necessary to take law into our hands because the police could not stop them, could not arrest them.
ADV GCABASHE: But what exactly was the strategy you discussed at COSAS? I understand you to say you decided to get back at these gangsters, what was the decision taken at COSAS, how were you going to get back at these chaps?
MR MPELE: Because they were very dangerous, we were going to fight them back and kill them.
ADV GCABASHE: Was this the decision taken by the group, by COSAS, to kill these chaps?
MR MPELE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Did you go further and discuss exactly how you were going to go about killing these chaps?
MR MPELE: We did not discuss as to how we would kill them. The decision was they should be caught, assaulted until they die, because the police could not do anything.
MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct if I say that when the three of you, that is Khotso, yourself and Lucky, went out on your own to look for these guys, you were still carrying through the resolution of the meeting that you've got to kill those guys, is that what you intended when you took arms and ran after them?
MR MPELE: Yes, that is correct, because they killed.
MR SIBEKO: You are also applying for amnesty inasfar as that is concerned, is that correct?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
ADV SANDI: Mr Mpele, at what level of COSAS as an organisation was this decision taken?
MR MPELE: COSAS had branches at all secondary schools in Katlehong. There was a mass meeting held at Lituthula after the tape of one girl, and it was now the second incident, this was the second incident, and nothing was done to these people. It was decided there that these people must be killed.
ADV SANDI: Did you, the three of you, did you attend that mass meeting of COSAS?
MR MPELE: No, I am the only one who was at Lituthula, they were not in our school.
ADV SANDI: Did any one of you hold any portfolio in COSAS?
MR MPELE: I was a member.
ADV SANDI: Was Lucky and Khotso also members of COSAS?
MR MPELE: Yes, they were members of COSAS at Boshe Buzeli School.
ADV SANDI: Was Lucky and Khotso subsequently arrested for the murder of those boys?
MR MPELE: Lucky - the police were looking for Lucky, but they never managed to catch him, he was never arrested.
ADV SANDI: And Khotso, he was also not arrested?
MR MPELE: Khotso was never arrested as well.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Mpele, thank you, chair.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, chair. Phumseli, who you say was killed, lived in Thokoza?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Would she be Phumseli Mbatha, who has been mentioned in evidence before this hearing, who was killed, and if I got it wrong, on the 5th of November 1991, could it be the same one, Mbatha?
MR MPELE: That is not Phumseli Mbatha, Phumseli Mbatha was a Youth League member, this one was a member of COSAS who lived in Mgake Street.
ADV GCABASHE: Now, when Zero was assaulted, that incident, how many of you were there who tried to get hold of Zero and the other guys, the group in totality?
MR MPELE: It was many of us. We did not even have a chance to thoroughly assault, because there would be many people in front of you also trying to take part in the assault.
ADV GCABASHE: Are you talking 50, are you talking 100?
MR MPELE: Maybe 50, because when the police chased us, some were left at Nyala section, but we managed to reach the school with this one that we've accosted.
ADV GCABASHE: Now this group of 50, were all of you COSAS members?
MR MPELE: I do not want to commit myself, it was a mixture, but we were school kids. COSAS called a mass meeting and the position was put before everybody who was there.
ADV GCABASHE: But isn't that the meeting that you say you didn't attend?
MR MPELE: I attended the meeting, the meeting was held at the school. It was a COSAS meeting.
MR SIBEKO: If I were to interrupt, the question was, "Did you attend the meeting?", and then the answer was, "No", because the two were not students at his school, so he should have said, the complete answer would have been, "The two did not attend the meeting, because they were not part of our school, I was there".
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that in fact was his evidence, he said that he attended that meeting.
MR SIBEKO: But, Mr Chairman, it was not a complete answer, ja, so I'm trying to clarify what - if the question could be rephrased or could be asked again, maybe it could be clear.
ADV GCABASHE: In fact where you can help me is to explain how many meetings there were in relation to these incidents you have mentioned here, how many COSAS meetings to discuss the problem with these gangsters?
MR MPELE: There were two meetings on that day, it was the meeting at Phumana and the meeting at Lituthula.
ADV GCABASHE: Both meetings dealt with the issue of these gangsters and in particular the rape and the killing of Phumseli?
MR MPELE: The meeting at Lituthula was about rape, Phumana was discussing the issue of a girl that was killed.
ADV GCABASHE: You attended the meeting at Lituthula?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Khotso and Lucky, at their schools, did they discuss the same issues, do you know?
MR MPELE: This was a campaign of Lituthula and Phumana, only these two schools.
ADV GCABASHE: Talking about your AK47, you said that it was a joint purchase. Who bought it with you?
MR MPELE: It was Bafana Boloi.
ADV GCABASHE: Was this purchase with your own personal funds?
MR MPELE: Yes, we gathered a few cents and we bought this gun.
CHAIRPERSON: Now just make it clear to me, did you and Bafana give all of the money that was used to buy this AK47 rifle, or did you collect money from some other people as well?
MR MPELE: It's the money from - it's my money and Bafana's money only.
CHAIRPERSON: And for what purpose did you obtain this AK47 rifle?
MR MPELE: It was for self-protection. When we were still members of Toiko, we were once involved in a fight with these Bad Boys, they had firearms, we did not have, and they were not arrested. Now this is a serious issue, it ended up in schools.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: When Lucky killed that member of the Bad Boys, you associated yourself fully with that killing?
MR MPELE: That boy was not a member of the Bad Boys, I was present, I did not know, I only came to know the next day that a person had died.
ADV GCABASHE: Let's just go back to that incident, the person Lucky killed, was he one of the people you had targeted, you know one of the Ford Gallant, Cold Gallant people?
MR MPELE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Now my question is, because he was one of the people you had targeted, do you associate yourself fully with that killing, even though you didn't actually do it, your comrade did it?
MR MPELE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: These Colt Gallant people, did they belong to any particular gang, did their gang have a name, or what?
MR MPELE: I really do not know. This boy from Unit F was a silly person. After they killed a family of five, we realised that it was just a group of criminals, because their intention was to go and rob. We did not know the name of their gang, we did not know who they called themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, one of the problems that you described to us which your organisation, COSAS, had with the gangs and the gangsters, was it that they would use activities which you planned in order to commit criminal acts, say for example you would have a march and then they would use the cover of that march to loot businesses, to commit crimes, was that the kind of problem that you tried to explain to us?
MR MPELE: Yes, we could not conduct our campaigns properly, we had cultural activities and they'd come and pick up girls and our campaign would end up to nothing and would not succeed in whatever we wanted to do.
CHAIRPERSON: So you had felt that they were undermining the political objectives that you were trying to achieve by this sort of conduct?
MR MPELE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, just to come back to that AK47 that you and Bafana had bought, was your purpose only to defend yourself personally against the activities of the gang, or was your purpose rather to defend other innocent people against the activities of these gangs?
MR MPELE: It was to protect myself and the innocent people.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this in line with a policy or a view of COSAS that you ought to be defending not only yourself but also other innocent people against these gangs?
MR MPELE: We had not discussed protection methods as COSAS, but when it comes to rape and murder in schools, we joined hands and we went out together.
MR SIBEKO: Yes, now apart from the method, was this in line with COSAS thinking that you, as COSAS members, should be defending yourselves and other innocent people against what these gangs were doing?
MR MPELE: That is correct, but we had never discussed that when there was a problem at school, an example the killing of a school girl, we had to group ourselves, go out and look for that person, because the police could not catch them.
CHAIRPERSON: So, in other words, this was the first time where you actually went over to action and to act on your thinking that you are to be defending people, it was only then that you actually did something positive about that sort of idea that you had, would that be about correct?
MR MPELE: Yes, that was the first time, you are right.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?
MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mpele, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for tea.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
