CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, we would like to start. For the record, it's Friday, the 5th of December 1998, it is continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee in respect of the Tokoza SDU members' amnesty applications. The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are the same.
We would like to recall this morning the first matter, that of Mr Sipho - the application of Mr Sipho Steven Ngubane, AM7295/97, to clarify an issue that has come to our attention since he has completed his testimony, and Mr Sibeko is representing him this morning, as previously was the position as well.
Now, Mr Ngubane, do you hear me?
MR NGUBANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to administer a further oath to you, so I would like you to please stand. We've already got your full names, so please stand.
SIPHO STEVEN NGUBANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. I'm going to ask Advocate Gcabashe to raise the particular issue with you.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, chair. Mr Ngubane, you gave evidence about a number of incidents. One of the incidents you referred to was that during '93 or '94, you weren't sure of the date, you chose certain members of your SDU group and you launched an attack at Dube Street, Tokoza, that's the note that I had made. You said that you were attacking IFP members because they were attacking you. You went on to say that you were with Sipiwe Ndlovu and you said you did not remember the others. Essentially you were saying that there were outbreaks of violence and you then went to deal with one of these outbreaks. Now, Sipiwe Ndlovu gave evidence last week and he said to us that he was with you, because you had taken over as Moosa's deputy, you had confirmed that you were Moosa's deputy anyway, but what Sipiwe Ndlovu said to us about an incident where you were involved was that in about about '93 he thought it was, there was a meeting in Johannesburg of the IFP, he was with you and three other comrades, you heard that the IFP were going to this rally and you had decided to wait for them to return. He went on to say that he and you took two AK47's, you went to Khumalo Street and waited for these IFP members to come back. When the first minibus came back, you ignored it, when the second one came, it was full of passengers, you shot at the second minibus and then you retreated. Now he said that that incident occurred at Khumalo Street. What I would like you to do is to explain whether the incident that you talked about, Dube Street, where you were fighting the IFP, is in fact the same incident that Sipiwe Ndlovu related, that's the one issue, is it the same incident, because we don't know if Dube and Khumalo Street are in fact, they in fact meet at a particular point, that's issue one, issue two, if in fact these are two separate incidents, could you then take us through the incident relating to the taxis coming back from town, and tell us whether you would like to be granted amnesty on that particular incident as well, along with all the others that you have mentioned? It's really just to clarify for us what the position is and to supplement your application for amnesty, so that we've got all the incidents. I hope you have understood that. Thank you.
MR NGUBANE: Yes, I understand. Khumalo Street and Dube are two different streets, I cannot even say they interject at some point. I can say I was involved in that Dube Street incident with Sipiwe and the other members, it was myself who actually issued the instructions as they were attacking there, as they were attacking the IFP members there at Dube Street. The Khumalo Street incident, I know nothing about it, I know nothing about it, I don't know that we ever waited for the IFP members who were coming from the meeting or from the rally, I don't know anything about that incident. I think he is making a mistake.
ADV GCABASHE: You know nothing at all of that incident?
MR NGUBANE: I know nothing about the incident whereby we waited for the Inkatha members coming from a meeting.
ADV GCABASHE: You did not give any order either in relation to that incident?
MR NGUBANE: No.
ADV GCABASHE: You see later on he does talk about Osipho Tshabalala, so it is quite possible, he mentions both Sipho's, Sipho Tshabalala and Sipho Ngubane, so it is quite possible that Sipho Tshabalala is in fact the person he was with and not with Sipho Ngubane.
MR NGUBANE: That is a possibility, that maybe he was with Sipho Tshabalala.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, chair, I have no further questions on this issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Have you got any questions?
ADV SANDI: Mr Ngubane, did you ever hear that such an incident had occurred?
MR NGUBANE: That is new to me, I did not hear anything about that story of attacking the IFP members coming from the meeting.
ADV SANDI: You mean to say that you're hearing it for the first time today?
MR NGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, have you got any questions?
ADVOCATE STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, questions?
MR SIBEKO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Ngubane, is it not possible that Sipiwe is accusing this attack with any other attack which you might have been involved in with him, that has to do with a kombi or a car?
MR NGUBANE: I think he's making a mistake, I think he is making a mistake somewhere, because there was an attack that took place at Khumalo, Khumalo Street, where I was involved. It was myself there who issued orders. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was early 1994. What made me to say that he is making a mistake, those IFP members who were injured coming from the meeting, the attack itself took place in the morning, it was very early in the morning and no-one would be coming from a meeting at that time, it was very early in the morning. We once attacked a kombi at Khumalo Street, just near the Tokoza Police Station. It was an ...(indistinct) kombi, white in colour. I was with the other members, not the whole section as we used to, it was just a few of us. Sipiwe Ndlovu was also present and Mr Vusu Mabizela was there, and Samuel Khoza, though I can't remember the others, because there were other comrades from other sections. What happened there, it was an ambush, the township was divided, there were kombis that were well-known that they were moving on the side of the hostel and everyone who used to reside there at the time was regarded as an enemy, that is why we attacked an ...(indistinct) kombi early in the morning at about seven o'clock, round about seven o'clock, near the Tokoza Police Station. We shot at this kombi to such an extent that it couldn't move anymore. We started shooting at this kombi while it was next to the Tokoza Police Station until it reached the point where the office was, I think that was the municipality office. From there, we left that place and we went back to our section.
ADV GCABASHE: You started shooting at it from the Tokoza Police Station until near the office you said. Which office?
MR NGUBANE: I think it's the town council office. We started shooting at this kombi while it was still coming, we were standing opposite the gate, the gate of the office, and it came to the office, next to the office, and it stopped.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, I have a difficulty, maybe you can help me, I'm trying to remember whether the witness did in fact mention this when he testified yesterday or the day before?
MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, this was not mentioned, it's one of those incidences that he only discovered this morning that he left out, those are the incidences that he left out, and it's because of this problem that we needed to be clarified upon that he forgot to remember, and further there was also an incident mentioned by Mr Mhlauli yesterday, which also involved Mr Ngubane, he only got to remember when Mr Mhlauli was testifying, so I beg leave that such incidences be allowed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no it is so that the discussion around testimony of Mr Ndlovu concerning kombis and taxis and meetings and so on might very well have helped the recollections of your client, and you have already dealt with the one, so please deal with the other one as well that he was reminded of.
ADV GCABASHE: Before you go to the other one, when you started telling us about these attacks, the first one you mentioned was at Khumalo Street, which was in early 1994, but I didn't get the rest of those facts down properly, you were going rather fast, because I have here that it was too early in the morning for IFP members to be coming from a meeting. Can you just go over that testimony in brief again? I just didn't get it down, that's all. I don't understand what that incident was about.
MR NGUBANE: What I was saying was that we launched the attack in the morning. I'm saying that because it was very early, I was collecting Sipiwe when he said the kombi that was attacked was the kombi that was coming from the meeting. What I was actually rectifying there was this, it was very early for one to determine that the people were coming from the meeting or it, it was quite early in the morning. That is what I wanted to say concerning the kombi incident. The other thing that came to my mind as Mr Mhlauli was testifying here yesterday about the kombi, the kombi that belonged to Khumalo, yes I was there, I was present. I was also involved there when the kombi was shot at at Konanga ...(indistinct) and Khumalo Street. That is where we made a plan of organising a lady to try and stop a kombi to pretend as if she was getting to town, and then when the kombi was about to stop, we would attack the kombi. I was also present there. The other one, in 1994, I think it was early 1994, on the 1st of January 1994, an attack was launched next to Slovo Section. As the people who were patrolling during the night, on the New Years Eve, as we were patrolling during the night on the New Years Eve, very early in the morning, at about 4:00, between 4:00 and 5:00, I went home to sleep, I went to sleep, a person who was in my company was Lerato. Both of us were armed with AK47 rifles. On the 1st of January 1994, in the morning, we heard gunshots coming from the direction of Slovo Section. It was just after we had woken up and we saw people running away. I took the firearm and Lerato had his own firearm. I told him to go with me to Slovo Section. As Moosa's deputy, most of the times when he was not present, I was allowed to issue instructions. I instructed Lerato to go with me to Slovo Section. We went to Slovo Section, we found that the IFP members had already attacked the area and there is a place where they used - there is a level that they used to reach when they were attacking, but now it looked like they actually went beyond that level.
MR SIBEKO: Sorry, I don't follow the very last part of this, what level are you talking about?
MR NGUBANE: I'm talking about Buthelezi Street, most of the time whenever they were attacking, they wouldn't go beyond Buthelezi Street, then it means that used to be their boundary. They crossed that boundary on that particular day. When we arrived there with Lerato, we found the comrades from Slovo who were the members of SDU's. Their problem was they were running short of ammunition, bullets, because during the night, at about 12:00, they were celebrating, shooting in the air, 12:00 midnight, that is the reason why they were attacked that much, because they did not have bullets. We tried to fight, though it was just a minority from their group that was actually helping us. We shot, we exchanged fire and we managed to drive them back and they went back to their place. That is one of the incidents that I happened to remember, that is why I had to talk about them. It is about this incident that I'm asking for amnesty. Perhaps anything that can come up that I've forgotten, I agree that I cannot remember everything. Even if I'm not here in this house, if someone else can bring up whatever that I have forgotten, I would like to further request, I apply for amnesty for those incidents, because I'm willing to apply for amnesty for each and every incident that I was involved in.
ADV GCABASHE: Tell me, this incident at Slovo, this last one you've told us about, is that the same incident Mhlauli referred to when he was talking about Slovo being a soft spot and the guys that come beyond, he gave evidence about that yesterday if I remember well, was he with you?
MR NGUBANE: No, that is not the same incident. The one that I'm talking about, I was with Lerato, not Mhlauli.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got nothing further for... (intervention).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngubane, you are again excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
