CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who's next?
MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Samuel Khoza. His application is on page 258, Lusaka A.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Khoza, can you hear me?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I can hear you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Good.
SAMUEL LESOLOLO KHOZA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Khoza, before we proceed, I observe that your application for amnesty was not signed, it doesn't have your signature?
MR KHOZA: By the time we filled out these forms, I was still in custody. The person who inquired about these things at the townships, I told them everything, I was not aware that I must attach my signature. He left. To date I didn't sign it.
MR SIBEKO: And you request that your application form be accepted as it is, is that correct?
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that it is your application form and that you intend to apply for amnesty?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I agree.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko, please proceed.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A?
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Your commander was Moosa Masango, do you confirm that?
MR KHOZA: That is Moosa Msimango, not Masango as you said.
MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, sir?
MR KHOZA: In 1993, that is when I joined the SDU.
MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidences of violence before this stage?
MR KHOZA: Before 1993, there are incidents that I was involved in.
MR SIBEKO: Are those incidences before 1993, the ones that we have already heard about from Mr Ngubane and Mr Nteo and Mr Mhlauli?
MR KHOZA: The one that I'm referring to was in 1990 when taxi violence erupted in Katlehong before it came to Tokoza.
MR SIBEKO: Would you mind telling us about your involvement, your specific involvement?
MR KHOZA: It so happened that one day in 1990, we were relaxing during the day, but we would hear over the radio that people are being killed, and those that come from Tokoza, we saw are involved. I was in the company of Veli, who stayed in Spruit, I'm not sure about his domicilium. As people were being killed, we heard rumours that possibly Inkatha members that night are prepared to launch an attack in the township.
ADV GCABASHE: Was that Veli Nhlapho? What's the surname, Veli's surname?
MR KHOZA: As I said, I just met this person, I didn't inquire about his surname.
MR SIBEKO: But this Veli is from Katlehong not Tokoza, is that what you say?
MR KHOZA: Veli resides in Katlehong.
MR SIBEKO: And then you said whilst you were still with him you got an information to the effect that there would be an attack from IFP members the same evening, is that what you said?
MR KHOZA: That is correct, we heard such a rumour.
MR SIBEKO: Where did you get that information from?
MR KHOZA: That is something that we heard, that there are people who got into the hostel and that they were told that we're very alert, because some of them resided at the hostel and some in the location.
MR SIBEKO: What happened after you received that information?
MR KHOZA: What happened after we received that information, it was at about 3:00 in the afternoon, myself and those in my company, we decided to collect some money that we had. There was a garage nearby, next to Gadebe.
MR SIBEKO: Yes, and what happened?
MR KHOZA: After we got the money, we got a five litre container, we went to this garage to buy petrol. Our intention was to come and make petrol bombs, and we did so.
MR SIBEKO: Yes?
MR KHOZA: After making these petrol bombs, we made them at the Mkatesa School, we arranged with the caretaker to give us the keys to get into one of the classrooms to make petrol bombs. We did so. Since it was late, going towards six o'clock, we decided that we'll meet later on, because the attack would probably be launched at about nine o'clock the evening.
MR SIBEKO: Yes?
MR KHOZA: Later on, after some time, the people from Everest, some were running, coming into the location along Schoeman Road that divides Katlehong and the hostels, there is this ground that is facing Everest, there were a lot of men, whether they were ready to attack or not, I was not sure, but there was a lot of them, men. People were summoned, men were summoned to go to that side, that is where I met these people that we made petrol bombs with. We took this case in which we put our petrol bombs in. We reached that place. I had four petrol bombs in my pockets and I had one in my hand, some were still in my pockets. As we approached this area where I saw this man, they were chanting songs that we had men from the location and with some of the younger boys. Men from the location were there to inquire from these others who were chanting songs what was happening, but we could not decide as to approach them or not.
MR SIBEKO: Did you see the group of men that you are referring to, that is the group that was in the soccer field?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I could see them, because I was up front.
MR SIBEKO: Were those men armed, were they wearing any distinguishing, whatever they were wearing, was there anything that could be said was distinguishing them from any other main person?
MR KHOZA: They had something in their possession and I could identify their affiliation to an organisation, they had red headbands and red plastics.
MR SIBEKO: Out of that observation, what would you say those men were?
MR KHOZA: I then concluded that these are the people who are going to attack us in the evening, as I have said, because I had these four petrol bombs. As time went on, a police motor vehicle came from the side of the hostel where these men came from. We stopped this motor vehicle as it went down the road, we asked them to go to these men to move from that place. If not, something would happen to them. The police vehicle stopped and we talked to these police officers. They took some of us and we approached these people, but we were not in the vehicle, we were following this vehicle, many of us were left behind. When we got to these people, we were not that close as to we can touch each other, they were about ten feet from us. What happened, they were on this open field, but they went to Schoeman Road. Seemingly, now they wanted to create a situation where bedlam would erupt. The driver of this motor vehicle could foresee maybe he could be in a problem, he's between groups that might fight at any time. The driver sped away, I don't know where he went, thereafter we were facing this group. Now we just had to defend for ourselves. There were men who had guns and there was exchange of fire and they retreated. Seemingly they didn't have firearms, they had knopkieries and spears. We chased them until we got to the houses next to Gadebe and there was this Magade. As we chased them, there are those who got into the houses. There was one that I got, I caught up with, and as they ran away, I threw in these petrol bombs and I ignited these bombs.
MR SIBEKO: Did I hear you got... (intervention).
ADV GCABASHE: The houses that they ran into, were these houses occupied by IFP people or occupied by people who were not associated with IFP?
MR KHOZA: At that time you could not distinguish between IFP
and those who are not aligned with the IFP. The people that we
were fighting against were those who came from the hostels.
There was not this distinction that we could make.
ADV GCABASHE: Now you threw your petrol bombs, where did you throw that petrol bomb, were you throwing it into those houses?
MR KHOZA: I did explain that the petrol bombs that I threw, I threw them amongst these people who were running. I was just about to explain what happened.
MR SIBEKO: Before you continue, you said whilst you were throwing your petrol bombs, you could see one of those men who were running, he was running away, is that one he was hit by the petrol bomb as a result of which he was on fire, is that what you said?
MR KHOZA: That is the one who caught fire when I threw the petrol bomb. I don't know what happened thereafter. I went ahead, there were others who came after me, what they did to that person I can't tell. When we reached this house at Gadebe, there is one who ran into a certain yard, trying to hide himself with some shrubs or flowers. The lady in that yard was looking through the window, could see that this one person who was hiding himself or herself at the flowers, then she shouted that "There is one who is hiding in my yard". With the petrol bombs that we had, but I was not alone in that, we poured him with this petrol and we set him alight. Some had their pangas and they hit him. We left him for dead. That is what I wanted to explain with regard to incidents in 1990.
MR SIBEKO: Now your evidence is, after you found this man who was hiding himself in that flower garden, you poured petrol on him, some of you were carrying pangas and you set him alight, what specific acts did you do to this particular man?
MR KHOZA: I poured him with petrol, that is what I did.
MR SIBEKO: You only poured petrol, you didn't light him?
MR KHOZA: I poured him with petrol. We were many of us trying to deal with this man.
MR SIBEKO: You acknowledge that you have contributed in this man's death, is that correct?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I agree, because if I did not pour him with petrol, he could not have been set alight.
MR SIBEKO: You said you don't know what happened to the one who was running away, the one that you threw him with the petrol bomb, you don't know what happened to him?
MR KHOZA: I don't know what happened to him. I never bothered myself with what would happen to him.
MR SIBEKO: You seek amnesty for those incidences, for the two incidences that you - setting the one on fire and then pouring petrol which led to the death of this one who you found in this garden, is that correct?
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Can you just explain to me, the first one, you poured petrol over him or you threw the petrol bomb at him, I know you ran straight past him after that, but what exactly did you do to him, the first one?
MR KHOZA: What happened, you mix a lot of components and you have a rag that you leave hanging on the top of the bottle, and I lighted this rag and, because it was on fire, this rag, I threw this thing to this man and it hit him, that's what happened.
ADV GCABASHE: It exploded as it hit him and his clothes caught fire, is that what happened?
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: You did not even hear subsequently what happened to this man, from people talking about what had happened between your group and this particular group?
MR KHOZA: No, subsequently I never heard a thing, because none of us died, because no-one cared what happened to whoever.
MR SIBEKO: Would you exclude the possibility of this person having been killed by a group in the midst of the turmoil that was taking place at that time there?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I can agree that he died, because I did what I did and I ran past him, there were others who were following behind, maybe they did something to this man. When we came back, we chose another route. As we were chasing them, they chased us as we ran back, we never bothered to see what happened to so and so. Some of them were left behind at the gates and chanting songs. Thereafter there was gunfire, sort of an automatic gun that was firing shots. It was quite difficult at that time. You would understand that I would not bother myself with people that I might have done a thing to them, and those that I was with or who were in my company, I didn't bother what had happened to them.
MR SIBEKO: So we should take it that this person must have been killed in the same way as the second one?
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: You say before the clash actually erupted, these people were singing. Are you able to recall what these songs were saying, what were the words of these songs?
MR KHOZA: The songs that they used to chant have no meaning. If you would like me to chant the song, I would. Mostly when they went to chant songs, they would bring young boys.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but Mr Khoza, I'm not asking you to sing those songs, but if you can say what words were contained in those songs, but if you don't remember the words that went with these songs, you can leave it? What was it, was it hymns or was it pop songs, or was it fighting songs or what was it?
MR KHOZA: I did not understand the question, those were war songs.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR SIBEKO: Is there anything that you want to add on this?
MR KHOZA: Thereafter I was not actively involved in the things that took place until '93. In 1993, I joined the SDU. There were circumstances that made me to join it. There are cars that drive past shooting at people at night vigilance, people were forcibly removed out of their houses at Kenduga, because I could foresee this might even reach my home. I never liked that, so I decided before these people reach my home and shoot my family, I must start defending the community.
MR SIBEKO: What specific acts were you involved in?
MR KHOZA: In the first instance we used to patrol and barricade roads in the location, we used to attend meetings as SDU members only, we discussed as to how we would protect the community. Those are the things that I did, until the community got together and gathered some funds so that we did not defend through words or stones or petrol bombs, if a person shoots at you, you would not wait for him to shoot you, so you were prepared to shoot back. That is how I got active into these things. In 1993, it so happened that whilst walking with Mulabise, we were just walking around and we landed at the shops, we saw this casspir, sorry it was a Nyala, five men alighted out of this casspir, some of them were wearing coats, because this car was coming from Tshabalala Street... (intervention).
ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I didn't get that, some were wearing what, combs or coats?
MR KHOZA: Some were - coats. As we saw these people, we never wanted to ask them where they come from, "Who are you?", why the police are leaving you here, we concluded that is the enemy, the police brought them here, maybe they would shoot, afterwards run away. That was quite a known factor that the stability officials would come and drop off people there and thereafter would come and pick them up and leave with them, and you found people being killed thereafter, so we did not want to experience this, because we saw them alighting out of that car. Some of us ran to get AK's. Where we were at the shops during the day we had to put some arms not far from that shop. We chased these people. They ran away. Fortunately, and unfortunately for the one that we were chasing, we caught up with him. We then asked him where he came from. He said he's from Penduka, he came with these police, that they were going to fetch someone from our section in Lusaka. We never asked him, "Why are you going to catch this man here?" Those who ran away might have had firearms, because they were wearing these coats, so Mulabise, who had the AK47, forgive me for being fast, Mulabise, as we called him Mushegas, shot at this person. This guy was alone. We could not use all our AK's, shoot the single person with many AK's, a person who said whatever he said at that time. He was then killed, as such, and the police came to fetch him the next morning.
MR SIBEKO: You associated yourself with Mulabise's conduct, is that correct?
MR KHOZA: Yes, I associated myself with it because I chased this person and I had a firearm, if Mulabise did not do it, I could have done it.
MR SIBEKO: You seek amnesty for the unlawful possession of that AK and causing of then the death of this person that you ran after, is that correct?
MR KHOZA: That is correct, I seek amnesty. Again in 1994, around January, this was not a message, at Lusaka Section, which is next to Slovo Section, everything that happened at Slovo Section, if maybe there's gunfire, I would hear that, and if there's fight that ensued, I would hear, if people are playing with guns, we would hear that. On that day, you could tell through this gunfire that a battle ensued. Those that were in my company, the 21 Battalion, as we referred to ourselves, we had 21 AK47's, we left as the 21 Battalion, we divided ourselves in three groups of seven each, we assisted our fellow comrades at Slovo Section. We managed to push these people out of the section. Most of the empty houses, we regarded them as houses belonging to residents that were forcibly removed out of the location. When everything became stable, when these police came in, we left for Khumalo Street. We have a section that was the Basotho Section, we have a place that we made our own shooting range, others went to this shooting range and they observed what was happening up ahead. The duty that I used to do, also carrying a firearm, was that when the 21 Battalion or the SDU members were hungry, I would be informed. The ladies in the township would inform me where the battalion, the SDU members would get food. Each parent would allow that we would come and eat at her house, so I would tell them that at a certain street in such and such a section at this time, we would go and eat there. We had our messengers who would bring such information to me, so I told them that so and so that you tell these guys to go and eat at a certain place. As we retreated we left our guns there, because the situation was not yet stable, it was quite tense, the reason being that as you passed Khumalo and trying to get to the Basotho Section, a bullet was just passed by. We never thought that we must be all of us as the 21 Battalion or others from Lusaka. Everybody knew where to go and eat. Others arrived. Some of us could not arrive because along the route there was this explosion that I never heard before, I thought Tokoza was up in flames. We decided that we forget about the food until the situation became stable. We found a big hole at the hostel, it was a confusion. I had this AK, I shot at these people who were still around, these people from Khumalo were up at the end of the street. There are shops along that street and there was these trucks, people were watching at what happened, there was this one casspir, so called Mamba, there were a lot of people from both sides. Those in the street were not shooting, but there was just exchange of fire, others were inside the hostel, so they managed to get there but I could not because I ran out of ammunition. So I came to the shooting range and I used a thoroughfare, got into one house and I asked this woman to hide this gun for me. She agreed. I asked her if she does not have a spade or a hammer so that I could go and assist, as I didn't have ammunition. This AK was just like a knopkierie. I would not carry such a knopkierie, because if the police would come across, we will be in trouble. This woman gave me a five pounds hammer. I took it along. My aim was to get to this hostel and break the wall, we wanted to put the hostel down to the ground. I never reached my aim. I came to a certain place. There were some whites, because seemingly one of the photographers who was white was killed. There were two of them. The other one was carrying this white photographer and summoned for the casspir to take this person. Bafana Boloyi was also killed and a lot of them who stayed in Gobe Section, I forget their names now, such people passed away. That is when we retreated, because the soldiers also appeared at the scene, because soldiers would not ask and would shoot at you on sight, so we retreated. That is what I did on that day, I shot at the hostel and in the township before we left for the hostel, so I'm seeking amnesty if there was somebody who got injured whilst I was shooting, that is what I did.
MR SIBEKO: Now, you have a few incidences which you have - some of the applicants have already testified about. If I'm not mistaken it's Mandela, Mandela Section, 1994, and you were also involved in that incident?
MR KHOZA: That is correct, I did participate at Mandela.
MR SIBEKO: You also apply for amnesty for your participation there?
MR KHOZA: That is correct, I seek amnesty on that score.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
ADV SANDI: Mr Khoza, what did you do at the Mandela Section?
MR KHOZA: At Mandela Section, what happened on that day, or what I did on that day, as I said, we divide ourselves in three groups when we go and launch an attack. Others would tell that the two-way radio, through it we got a message that we must go and assist them. When there are covering groups and we had an assault group, we had two covering groups, I was in the first covering group, meaning I was assisting those who were going to launch the attack itself, so we were on guard that nobody would get us unawares, maybe the police or the enemy from behind, so we'll be facing the enemy, or anybody would come across us, so we are just assisting these people to launch the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?
ADV GCABASHE: Just give me one or two of your comrades' names who were with you, people who have given evidence on this incident?
MR KHOZA: Those comrades who were present was Moosa Msimango, Kenneth Mabizela was there on that day, Steven Ngubane, those are the people I can recall at the moment who were present on that day.
ADV GCABASHE: Steve Ngubane is Sipho Ngubane, thank you.
MR KHOZA: That is correct.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Khoza, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for lunch.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
