CHAIRPERSON: If I could at this stage kindly ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Dehal, Roshan Dehal from a firm Dehal Incorporated in Durban, I represent the applicant, Mr Majola, in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.
MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the name is Mr Panday. I represent the victim's family, that of Thomsile Bongwa(?)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Panday.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, my name is Thabile Thabethe, I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Mr Dehal, is Mr Majola going to be giving evidence?
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that's correct, he will testify. I propose doing it in the following manner, I'll probably get him to confirm aspects of the bundle that's now before us and read a statement in, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal. I'll swear the applicant in.
SIFISO CEDRIC MAJOLA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dehal?
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Chairman, as - sorry, firstly, I have formulated a statement duly typed and signed by the applicant, Mr Majola, I caused copies to be handed over, I understand that all the Members and legal representatives are now in possession of a copy.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you have a copy.
MR PANDAY: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Can we then receive this statement, this typed statement that's just been handed in and we'll call it Exhibit A.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, just one clarifying comment before we begin, Mr Sifiso Cedric Majola indicates that his name Majola is not correct, he's in fact known as Sbisi as would be evident from the affidavit within the bundle, page 18, Sbisi, S-b-i-s-i. It was an affidavit that was taken from him some time ago. That the name, Majola is incorrect. It so happened that certain complainants in the earlier criminal trial of his, incorrectly referred to him as Majola, he was incorrectly so indicted and apparently inasmuch as he took issue with the surname, it stuck since then.
CHAIRPERSON: And then I take it he is in prison under the name Majola, rather than Sbisi.
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, no, what happened is that when he got to prison he actually entered prison under the name Majola, but took issue with that at the prison and managed to rectify it. He's now got in his pocket a prison little book in which his name is recorded as Sifiso Cedric Sbisi. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I think then, Mr Sbisi, we'll call you by your name, not by your false name. So we'll refer to the applicant as Mr Sbisi.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I then just ask that Exhibit A be amended. You will notice that it's signed on the last page as Majola Sbisi, a signature that has been forced upon him by the prison authorities and during his trial, so that the name Majola be extracted from the heading and from the tramlines and the name Sbisi to be replaced therewith.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I take it there's no objection to that amendment.
MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, those amendments will therefore be made and wherever the name Majola appears in any of the documentation, be it in the bundle or in this exhibit, we will delete reference to Majola and substitute it with Sbisi.
MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?
EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.
Mr Sbisi, I have a single copy of the bundle, if I may just place it here before us, between us. Do you confirm the pages 1 to 10, interpreted on pages 11 to 17, as being your application for amnesty?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: Do you confirm - sorry, firstly, were you assisted in the formulation, in the completion of this amnesty application?
MR SBISI: No, nobody assisted me.
MR DEHAL: May I draw your attention to paragraph (b) on page 11 of the interpreted aspect, where you say
"I was the ANC Committee Member in Estcourt"
Do you see that? Do you confirm that?
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 7B?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do see it.
MR DEHAL: And on page 12, paragraph 9(a)(iv), is it correct that what you have recorded therein is correct, namely your ANC involvement and how you became to be arrested with murder, attempted murder etc?
MR SBISI: Please repeat that.
MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I'm having some difficulty with the channel for the interpretation.
CHAIRPERSON: It should be on channel 2, Mr Dehal.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, I'm indebted to you.
Okay, then I take you to page 13, you'll see at the bottom of paragraph 10(a) you say that you are an ANC - sorry, you used to teach persons in the ANC doctrines etc., and everyone that was close to the ANC.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And that on the next page you say that the object for which you were part of the ANC and so taught it’s doctrines, was to free the country of apartheid as a crime.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And rather than reading all of it into the record, (b) therefore details three paragraphs which records your justification regarding these acts and omissions or offences, as having an associated political objective. Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes.
MR DEHAL: More importantly I take you now to pages 18 of the bundle to pages 20, do you confirm that this is an affidavit of yours and that the contents thereof are indeed correct? And more importantly that this affidavit deals with the various counts for which you seek amnesty.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now in addition to that affidavit you have caused to be prepared through your lawyers, a further document which you have before you, Exhibit A, will you please read that into the record, but please read it slowly because of the interpretation.
MR SBISI
"I am an adult male. I was born and brought up at Hammarsdale and subsequently on moved to Estcourt. I was employed as a barman at the Drakensberg Sun from 1987 up to '92. As from '90, I used to listen to the Radio Zulu. I heard about the different leaders and the ANC policies."
MR DEHAL: Is it correct that then you indicated your mental desire to join the party, the ANC, because you had agreed with the ANC's doctrines?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You then say that you began to attend political ANC meetings in Estcourt - that means in paragraph 3, that you embraced the ideals of the ANC and its armed wing of MK. Do you see that and do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes, that is correct.
MR DEHAL: Did you understand the MK as being the armed wing of the ANC, otherwise known as Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You then add that during the year 1990, a person by the name of Mapandla Dlamini, came to your home and he educated you further about the policies of the ANC.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: I take you now to paragraph 4. Do you see that there you say that during 1991 there were many marches held in the area, that these marches were dominated by the Inkatha Freedom Party, that a meeting was called with the Chief in the Bhekuzulu(?) area and that at the meeting the Chief's assistant, a person whose name you had forgotten, indicated that they did not want any people wearing ANC T-shirts, they were adamant that the area belonged to the Inkatha Freedom Party. At the meeting the Chief's assistant also indicated that you and the others with you must take your weapons and go to the Wembezi area and kill all the people that belonged to the ANC. Do you see that and do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting. What was the name of the Chief of Bhekuzulu area?
MR SBISI: Mr M J Radebe.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.
I then take you to paragraph 5 of your affidavit. There you say that when you and the others questioned the Chief as to why you should kill people, he indicated that you should help the other IFP people as they are resident in the IFP area, correct?
MR SBISI: We questioned the Chief as to why he allowed that situation to prevail in the area because he was non ...(indistinct).
MR DEHAL: Yes, and then in the next paragraph you deal with that aspect of question, you say that you also indicated that all those who did not agree with the IFP in the Bhekuzulu area, must move out from the area together with their parents and family, that they did not want any members who did not belong to the IFP, to live in the Bhekuzulu area. That evening there was a march by the youth of the IFP, you refused to join the march, you together with your friends ran away and refused to join the march. Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And then you go to paragraph 7 where you say, at that stage as you had not participated in the march, your house was burnt.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Was your house burnt down or was it partially burnt?
MR SBISI: It was one bedroom that was burnt, so it was just burnt partially.
MR DEHAL: You then continue to say that the IFP members then began chasing other people who did not support their march and their cause, there was a lot of violence in the area, this was now a continuous problem during '90, 1991 and 1992, and was daily a matter of life and death a question of political survival. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then you continue in paragraph 8 to say that during 1992 there was an election and you and others began canvassing for the elections, you assisted in putting up ANC posters in the Bhekuzulu area. It is at this stage that members of the IFP realised that you were an ardent ANC supporter. Do you see that and do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say that these people then accused you that you had returned from Hammarsdale to Estcourt to campaign for the ANC. You and others then formed your own group of ANC supporters. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You continue to say that you together with Sipho Mandla Dlamini, were chosen by the youth as the leaders of the group, you were all then accepted as part of the SDU Self Defence Unit, responsible for the protection of the members being attacked and killed by the enemy. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Now who was the Commander of this SDU Unit?
MR SBISI: I was the Commander.
MR DEHAL: And did you give instructions for the various operations to be carried out?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Then you continue to paragraph 9 where you say, at that stage the violence was increasingly rife in the area, IFP members were attacking homes and people belonging to the ANC. Despite reports made to the police, the police were not helping. It was then decided that you and others will take the law into your own hands, as the people were making reports of violence to the police but the police were not interested. It was clear to you and others that the police were siding with the IFP and were against you and others in the ANC. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then in paragraph 10 you say that sometimes during 1992, the police brought in a special unit to assist with the violence in the area, that this unit however was once again supporting the IFP and were against the members of the ANC, especially the youth, who were continuously being arrested, harassed, by members of this special unit as well. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then in the next paragraph you deal with one of your counts for which you seek amnesty against that background. You say that on or about - actually that should be on or about, the 25th December 1993, you together with a few other members of the ANC, namely S Dlamini, were seated in a bottle store.
At this stage you said you must add that Jabulani Radebe who was the Chief Assistant during 1993, he was an active supporter of the IFP, was seated at the bar. Jabulani Radebe's son came into the bar with a spear and a home-made firearm. The comrades who were sitting with you caught hold of Jabulani Radebe's son and disarmed him of the home-made firearm. They assaulted him and stabbed him with his own spear.
Mr Radebe's son ran away. Jabulani Radebe however, arrived at the scene, he helped to get his son to hospital, you and the others then decided to attack him as well, as he was a prominent member and had a stronghold of the people who stood for Inkatha Freedom. They crowded ...(indistinct), chased Jabulani Radebe, who then ran into Dladla's kraal. You then spoke to Dladla and insisted that he must hand over Radebe to you. At that stage you and the others seized Radebe and took him into Bhekuzulu School. Do you agree with all of that?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Dehal. This Mr Jabulani Radebe that you're talking about here, you say he was the Assistant to the Chief, M J Radebe, is that right? Or is it the same person?
MR DEHAL: As I understand it, Mr Chairperson, an Assistant, yes. Unless I'm incorrect, perhaps I should ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What was the relationship between the Chief, M J Radebe and Jabulani Radebe, who you're describing here?
MR SBISI: They shared the same surname and the other one was the assistant to the Chief, he was the Induna to the Chief.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dehal?
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Sbisi, you then confirm that paragraph and all of those as correct, do you? The paragraph that we've just read up to here, that's paragraph 11.
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: You then continue in paragraph 12, to say that at the school you forced Radebe to drink petrol. Sipho Mandla placed a tyre around Mr Radebe's neck and you filled a tyre with petrol as well, you then ignited the petrol, you and the others then all dispersed from the scene, this incident having occurred between 9 to 9pm. Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: In paragraph 13 you say that the next morning you got up and went to the scene at about 4a.m., you saw the tyre but you did not see the charred body. You heard on the radio thereafter that a man known as Beku Zulu was burnt and was taken to hospital with critical burn wounds. Since that date you were afraid ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think you said a man known as Bhekuzulu, a man in Bhekuzulu was killed.
MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, sorry, I apologise.
A man in Bhekuzulu was burnt and was taken to hospital with critical burn wounds. Since that date you were scared and began hiding from the police. Do you remember that, confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: In the next paragraph you say that you are very sorry about what happened to Mr Radebe, however this incident you say occurred at the time when the violence was rife between the ANC and Inkatha members and this country was in a state of war and you were all forced to protect yourselves. Mr Radebe was an active representative of the Inkatha people and it is for this reason that this action was taken against him. He was seen as a legitimate target by the ANC, by the people and yourself. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: In paragraph 15 you say that one - sorry, on the 23rd - sorry, that should be "on", I apologise, on the 23rd January 1994, all the comrades in the area became aware that the eldest son of Emily Nkadene Mbongwa, was an active IFP member. He was responsible for the deaths of many ANC members. He was identified as a legitimate target by the Self Defence Units - sorry, that should be "Self", and the ANC. By this time the comrades in the area had accumulated a few firearms. "We had formed ourselves into an SDU Unit and regarded ourselves as MK Unit within South Africa". Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes.
MR DEHAL: Now if I may just pause there. You had not received specific MK training, did you?
MR SBISI: I did not receive training externally but I did get training internally.
MR DEHAL: And you being a Commander of the SDU Unit, was pursuant to training in that regard.
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And as I understand what you have said here, you regarded your SDU Unit as a wing of MK within the country, armed to protect the people. Is that correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Sorry, and the training that you say you received within the country as an MK member, what type of training was that?
MR SBISI: With regards to the training, we were trained by a certain person in the use of firearms.
MR DEHAL: And were you educated politically as to what are legitimate targets, how to ...(indistinct) upon informers, the attitude of the ANC on necklacing and aspects of that sort?
MR SBISI: We were not informed on targets, but we were trained in the use of firearms such as AK47s.
MR DEHAL: Were you required to source out and identify and deal with targets on your own according to your own discretion as Commander of the SDU Unit?
MR SBISI: Yes, it was at our discretion as elected persons in the Bhekuzulu area.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but Mr Majola, Mr Sbisi, sorry, you said that you were considered or you at least considered yourselves to be an MK Unit operating in that area and you as the SDU considered yourself to be an MK Unit, did you receive any political education about the policies of the ANC, what they are, what the ANC stands for, what it is striving for, how to conduct themselves etc., did you get any training in that regard?
MR SBISI: No, what we did learn was from the media, the newspapers and the radio.
CHAIRPERSON: So how then would you determine what was a legitimate target and what was not a legitimate target? Was for instance, robbing a bottle store a legitimate target?
MR SBISI: No, it wouldn't be legitimate.
CHAIRPERSON: And what about robbing a bottle store that was owned by an IFP person, would that be a legitimate target?
MR SBISI: If that person was an IFP member and responsible for killing ANC members, then it would be legitimate to rob that person's shop.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Dehal.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Sbisi, may I just take you back just for that purpose, to paragraph 3 here. Do you recall saying that you began political ANC meetings in Estcourt and that you embraced the ideals of the ANC and its armed wing, MK, and that during 1990 this person known as Mpamandla Dlamini came to your home and he educated you further about the policies of the ANC? Do you recall that?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: And here in paragraph 15 you are dealing with an incident on the 23rd of January 1994, when you were already a Commander of the SDU Unit and MK as you understood it, which is well after all this education of yours at the instance of Dlamini, correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Okay, then in paragraph 15 you continue to say
"It was planned at a meeting of ours that six persons will go to the Mbongwa house and kill the eldest son by shooting him. The six people who were to have gone were Manku Radebe, Nozwe Ndumo, Lendelani and three other youths. Two AK47s were used (sorry) issued to these people and some of them were to carry petrol bombs. The people left at about 8p.m. They returned at 10p.m. to say that they had killed the son of Mbongwa. The operation was considered a success."
Do you remember that and do you confirm this?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do confirm that.
MR DEHAL: Did you issue these two AK47s?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Did you issue the petrol bombs?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then in paragraph 16 you say
"I heard the next day to my great surprise, that a young girl died at the home and that the house was badly burnt. I then checked the firearms and noted that one firearm was fully loaded and the second firearm had two used cartridges. I then enquired as to what happened, when I was assured that Mbongwa's son was killed. I subsequently tried to hide away from the police. I was arrested in January 1994. In this incident, although I was responsible for the planning of the incident, the obtaining of the firearms and for handing over the firearms for the incident, I certainly did not go to the house."
You then say -
"I do however take full political responsibility for the act, as I had authorised the killing of Mbongwa's eldest son."
Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Dehal, if I may just ask a question here, arising out of this paragraph.
Is there any reason Mr Sbisi, why you yourself didn't go on the operation? Taking into account the fact that you had received training in the use of firearms etc., why didn't you form part of the operative unit that carried out the attack?
MR SBISI: The reason was that we used to work in different groups and shifts in protecting the community. On that night I was on patrol, therefore I had to rest the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Dehal?
MR DEHAL: I know I'm skipping the paragraphs, but may I take you to paragraph 19. Do you see that paragraph there? Is it not correct that you say that you are however adamant that you did not attend the scene on the night of the burning, of the killing, that is that night of the 23rd January 1994, on that night you were standing guard at the Bhekuzulu area to avoid any attack by the Inkatha people, and to acquire a restful night's sleep? That's because you were on guard the night before as well, correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR MALAN: May I interrupt there. I don't understand this paragraph, specifically because you also had it in pen there. How does one stand guard during the night and sleep at the same time? Why did you add that in there?
CHAIRPERSON: Were you sleeping on guard duty?
MR SBISI: We used to work in shifts. If somebody had been on night duty, the following day it would be somebody else.
MR MALAN: Yes, but you could have gone on this operation, it would have taken you two hours there and back, if we look at the time it took the rest of the group, and you could have slept the rest of the night. Why did you not go along, just tell us briefly, don't look at this paragraph now, tell us why did you not go along. Were you sleeping, were you standing guard, or is there another reason?
MR SBISI: I stayed behind with other comrades keeping guard because the IFP used to attack from all angles.
MR MALAN: Now can you explain the portion referring to a "restful night's sleep".
MR SBISI: As I explained before, our policy was to work in shifts, so yes, I should have been resting on that night but because I was concerned for the safety of our comrades and the community I did not.
MR MALAN: So you did not sleep that night, is that what you're telling us?
MR SBISI: Yes, I did not.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
I take you back to paragraph 16 where we stopped. Do you see that? You continue to say that you heard the next day to your great surprise, that a young girl died at the home and that the house was badly burnt ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think he's - you've finished paragraph 16, yes.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Start with 17.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
Paragraph 17 at the bottom you say people in the area knew of you because you were one of the active ANC leaders in the area, and then you continue on paragraph 18, to say that however, you are sorry about the death of the young child, Pumzile Mbongwa, she was not the intended target. With regard to the damage to Mrs Mbongwa's property as well you do apologise.
All this occurred you say, at a time when violence was rife and there was serious ongoing fighting between members of the Inkatha Freedom Party and the ANC. You say the only reason this home was targeted was because the eldest son was an active and ardent IFP supporter and was involved in violence against the ANC, causing the deaths of several ANC members and damage to property. He was identified as a legitimate target. Do you confirm that?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: You then go on to say in paragraph 20, you once again apologise for your acts or all your acts, at that stage many people died, including lots of ANC people, you however had lost a secure job which you had with the Drakensberg Sun, correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: In paragraph 21 you then deal with the other incident for which you seek amnesty and you say the following
"I was involved in another incident for which I seek amnesty, when one Kamanati Sithole was shot and killed."
This incident you say occurred in September 1993. "Mr Sithole and Mr Jabulani Radebe worked together in propagating violence by the IFP against the members of the ANC."
You together with approximately four of five youths went out looking for Mr Sithole, you all found him at his house, you knocked at the window, Mr Sithole opened the curtain, all of you were armed with AK47s, you all then shot through the window. Your intentions generally were to kill Kamanati. You heard the next morning that he was seriously injured and he was taken to hospital by ambulance. You say you were not charged for this offence, but you wish to make full disclosure of this and apply for amnesty. That you all regarded Mr Sithole as a legitimate target and that you acted as SDU members and as the untrained internal wing of the MK. Correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: By untrained here you mean not trained outside the country, is that correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You end up by saying that you apologise for all your acts and the injuries, deaths or damage to property. You would not have so acted had the country not been in the thick of such heavy daily violence and murders. With all of you getting no help from the police or any other source you were forced to defend yourselves, you are deeply remorseful and wish to reconcile with all those who were affected and their family members. Is that correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now just before we finish, Mr Sbisi, this affidavit which you confirmed earlier, which is contained within the bundle, pages 18, 19 and 20, can you please tell this Committee how it came about that you made this affidavit. When was it made and who took this from you?
MR SBISI: I arrived here on Friday from Johannesburg Prison, a certain lady arrived and informed me that I was requested to appear before the TRC, that she had arrived to take a statement from me. She asked me several questions to which I responded and after that she left. And she informed me that she would fax a letter to the prison authorities as to when my date of appearance before the TRC would be.
MR DEHAL: And you did not have a lawyer assisting you at the time, correct? It was just a matter between you and the TRC lady.
MR SBISI: Yes, it was just the two of us.
CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't sign - did you sign anything or did she just ask questions and record them, what was the situation? I don't see any, although it's called an affidavit, I don't see any signatures, I don't know if this is just merely a typed copy of some other document. Did you sign anything, Mr Sbisi, this last Friday, on the 22nd?
MR SBISI: I did sign some three or four pages.
MR DEHAL: In any case you confirm ...(intervention)
MR SBISI: It was P21 documents that were hand-written.
CHAIRPERSON: So this is probably just a typed version of some hand-written statement.
MR DEHAL: You confirmed already however, that this affidavit is correct, isn't that so? Anyway, I now take you to - sorry, may I just find ...(intervention)
MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just to interject. My learned colleague's question confirming whether the affidavit is on page 18, 19 and 20 is correct. I think he was waiting answer from the ...
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Panday.
Mr Sbisi, do you confirm the contents of the affidavit which you recently signed, the one, the typed copy which appears on pages 18, 19 and 20 of the bundle? Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit to be correct?
MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to interject, but at the beginning of his evidence he confirmed this as correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I think this is just what Mr Panday was asking.
Is that correct?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now finally, you are presently in prison, having been sentenced to an effective 30 year imprisonment for the four counts which are contained on page 21, being the indictment, being attempted murder, murder, attempted murder and arson, for the acts for which you now sought amnesty, correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: That is the evidence, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry just before I ask Mr Panday, Mr Sbisi, with regard to that last answer of yours, that you apply for amnesty in respect of all the offences for which you were convicted, which appear in the indictment, is there any reason why you didn't mention those other matters in your application form? You mention Jabulani Radebe or Hadebe - is it Hadebe or Radebe, Radebe, but you don't mention Pumzile and ...(intervention)
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, if you look at page 13 of the bundle, under ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned page 12 has got Dlamini ...(intervention)
MR DEHAL: ... he says Radebe and Pumzile Mbongwa.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I suppose so. It's just that it's not very clear.
MR DEHAL: Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, no, there's nothing in that. Mr Panday?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Sbisi, before we go into your evidence, you mention that a person from the TRC approached you and questioned you on certain aspects, is that correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: Did you understand her on all of the aspects that she questioned you?
MR SBISI: Yes, I did understand because she spoke my language.
MR PANDAY: And had you had an attorney present, would your response have been any different from the answers you gave her?
MR SBISI: I regarded her as somebody I could trust, therefore I responded to her questions truthfully.
MR PANDAY: Right. Now Mr Sbisi, do you maintain that with regards to the incident on the Mbongwa family you were not present on the day of the attack?
MR SBISI: Yes, I do maintain that. When the house was attacked I was not present.
MR PANDAY: Right. Mr Sbisi, I'm going to refer you to page 28 of the bundle of documents and I'm going to quote from the judgment.
CHAIRPERSON: This, Mr Sbisi, is the judgment from your trial.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall the witness, Emily Mbongwa? That was the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa.
MR SBISI: Yes, I do.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall the judge regarded her as an outstanding witness?
MR SBISI: I do not recall the judge saying she was an outstanding witness, but he did say that he was not going to believe anything that I said.
MR PANDAY: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: I can confirm that in the judgment the judge said Emily Mbongwa was an outstanding witness. This appears on page 28.
MR PANDAY: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?
Now Mr Sbisi, do you recall when you were arrested, on what day you were arrested?
MR SBISI: I do recall the date on which I was arrested, but when I explained it in court the investigator disputed the date and gave a fresh date which was accepted by the court.
MR PANDAY: And what date did the investigator give of your arrest?
MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to be unfair, but my learned colleague, I thought the drift of his cross-examination was that in the event of him, that's in the event of Sbisi having now confirmed what the TRC lady had taken down in pages 18 to 20, and him having had no difficulties with talking to her, now seeking to deal with certain aspects from the earlier transcript. The one doesn't follow from the other firstly and secondly, the difficulty I have is that I have omitted to deal with this, I apologise, with the trial. My instructions were that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think let's hear what the questions are, I don't know what they're leading to. I don't think they're unfair or anything like that, Mr Dehal, he's merely asking straightforward questions, I can't see it being unfair. You may carry on Mr Panday.
MR DEHAL: No, sorry, Mr Chairperson, the contention was not that it's unfair, I was just placing on record that I have omitted an aspect, to deal with the transcript.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you'll be given a time to re-examine at the end, you can get into that at that time.
MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Do you recall the day that you were arrested on, what day were you arrested, Mr Sbisi?
MR SBISI: No, I do not recall, but I think it was on the 26th of January 1994.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa, the girl that was killed by mistake, as you allege, if I had to put it to you that she identified you as being one of the people that attacked the Mbongwa residence, what would be your response to that?
MR SBISI: I maintain what I said in court, that that is not true.
MR PANDAY: So you maintain that you were not present on the day in question, is that correct?
MR SBISI: Yes, I was not present at the scene, but I have knowledge with regards to the planning.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, is it also correct in your evidence-in-chief, after there was doubt with regards to paragraph ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about evidence-in-chief here?
MR PANDAY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Not at the trial.
MR PANDAY: Yes. Do you recall when there was doubt with regards to paragraph 19 of the affidavit that was handed in as Exhibit A, you rectified the affidavit by saying that you were keeping guard duty on the day of the attack, is that correct?
MR SBISI: That is correct, I remained behind keeping guard.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I'm going to take you back now to pages 18, 19 and 20 of the bundle of documents. Now bearing in mind that you (1), confirmed the contents of this to be true, (2), you trusted the official from the TRC who put certain questions to you regarding your incidents, I'm now going to ask you the following question, or rather refer you to the following paragraph. In explaining ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you can just home in on it for us.
MR PANDAY: If Mr Chairman will just bear with me, I will direct Mr Chairman.
In explaining as to why you did not attend the attack on the Mbongwa residence, you state the following in your affidavit - it's on page 19, the second paragraph, the fifth line. You distinctly say -
"I did not attend because I was sleeping after being on guard duty the last night."
Right. Now Mr Sbisi, would you now agree that that is in contradiction with paragraph 19 of the affidavit you handed in as Exhibit A, where you explain that you were in actual fact keeping guard duty?
MR SBISI: As I've already explained, we had a policy or working in shifts. On that night I was supposed to be sleeping, but because there had been many instances of people being attacked and killed, therefore I was fearful that something like that would happen to me as well, therefore I found it difficult to sleep because the situation was very serious at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: So then this is wrong, what's in this statement because here you say
"I did not attend because I was sleeping"
... and now you're saying you had difficulty in sleeping. I think just let's - sorry, Mr Panday.
Did you go out and guard that night? Patrol?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What time did you go out and patrol?
MR SBISI: Around half past eight because the people who had gone out on the attack had left at eight.
CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you get back from your guard duty or patrol?
MR SBISI: We used to patrol only the area that we resided or slept in. I would say that I was back by nine.
CHAIRPERSON: By nine. So you went out for about half an hour, a short time?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you go to sleep that night? - more-or-less. What I mean "go to sleep" I mean not get into bed and lie awake but when you actually fell asleep, what time would that have been more-or-less?
MR SBISI: I cannot specify the time because I forced to wake up for the people who had gone out to launch the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you stay awake until they came home?
MR SBISI: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, you first mentioned to us that you were first sleeping, that is why you did not go on the attack, then you mentioned to us that you could not sleep and you started to patrol, and you followed this by saying that you waited for the people to return about the attack. Now you are the leader of the MK in the area, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: I think at least of the SDU, they regarded themselves as MK, whether they were or actually not, I don't know, but we'll call it SDU.
MR PANDAY: SDU. Is that correct, you were the leader of the SDU?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: Now how many people knew of the eldest son of the Mbongwa family? Who could identify him?
CHAIRPERSON: You mean of the group that left?
MR PANDAY: Of the group that left.
MR SBISI: They all knew him.
MR PANDAY: And how did information come, according to your paragraph, that he was an active IFP member?
MR SBISI: Please repeat that question.
MR PANDAY: How did you get information about the eldest son of the Mbongwa family being an active member.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the IFP. You said that he was regarded as a legitimate target because he was an active member of the IFP, and I think you also said responsible for the deaths of many people. Now what Mr Panday wants to know is where did you get that information, how did you know that that was in fact what the position was.
MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR SBISI: I did have such information because I would see him on the marches. Even on the day when we were chased, he was the person chasing me. Secondly, he was involved in the death of Sipho Ngwenya, Sibusiso Ngwenya. That person was my brother-in-law and when they went to his home they were looking for me and could not get hold of me on that day and abducted him and attacked him. Fortunately he survived that attack and he could identify the people who had attacked him, when he was in hospital.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, how old was the eldest son of the Mbongwa family?
CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a name besides Mbongwa? Perhaps you can ask.
MR PANDAY: We're going to find that out as well, Mr Chairman.
If you could answer Mr Chairman's question first. What was the name of this eldest son of the Mbongwa family?
MR SBISI: I just knew him by that name, Mbongwa.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, you were the Commander of the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we had one more question to be answered.
How old was he? If you don't know his exact age, how old would you estimate him to be?
MR SBISI: I can estimate, I would say he was about 24/25.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I'm going to refer you once again to the bundle of documents and on page 22 and where the place it refers to Count 3: attempted murder, these were the following people that you were accused of attempting to have murdered - (1) was Emily Nsendi Mbongwa, right? I think that is common cause that it is the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa, right, and that is the lady that gave evidence against you in the trial. (2), the second person is Sifiso Mbongwa, that is another child of the Mbongwa family. (3), Bongiwe Mbongwa, Minilise Mbongwa and Kubelani Mbongwa. These are all children of the Mbongwa family. Now my instructions are from the father who is present at this hearing, that during the period of this attack on the Mbongwa family the ages of the children were from 19, that being Pumzile, that was the eldest child, the daughter, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: 19 years of age?
MR PANDAY: 19 years, that's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR PANDAY: ... Sifiso Mbongwa that was 15 years of age at the time of the attack, Minilise Mbongwa and Kubelani Mbongwa, these were all children that were younger than Sifiso Mbongwa. Now how is it that you identify a son in the Mbongwa family as being 24, when the eldest child was only 19 and that was a female?
CHAIRPERSON: And then the second eldest was 15 and that was ...
MR PANDAY: Sifiso.
CHAIRPERSON: Sifiso.
MR PANDAY: ... Mbongwa. That was at the time of the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying is that the oldest age, according to your instructions is that ...(intervention)
MR PANDAY: Is 19.
CHAIRPERSON: ... and the son ...(intervention)
MR PANDAY: No, it's 19, Pumzile, that was the daughter.
CHAIRPERSON: No, but that's not a son, the target was the son.
MR PANDAY: The target was a son, 15.
CHAIRPERSON: The oldest son was 15.
MR PANDAY: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that, Mr Sbisi?
This is at the time in question, is that right?
MR PANDAY: This is at the time of the incident, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MR SBISI: Actually I cannot specify and be certain of his age but because of his height that is how I came to that estimate age of 24/25.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, how old are you?
MR SBISI: I'm 32.
MR PANDAY: And at the time of the attack on the Mbongwa family?
CHAIRPERSON: I think we can take five years away and ...(intervention)
MR SBISI: I have forgotten.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you have been about 27? If you say you're 32 now and this happened in 1994, depending on when your birthday is, you'd be roundabout 27 years of age, would that be correct? In 1994. His birth date is the 6th of July 1968, so we can work that out.
Is that your birth date, Mr Sbisi, 6th July 1968?
MR SBISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Now Mr Sbisi, you mentioned that he killed ANC members, this 15 year old boy, that was the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, did he do this by himself or was he accompanied by others?
MR SBISI: He was in the company of others.
MR PANDAY: Do you know the names of the others?
MR SBISI: I can specify the names of those who were mentioned in the community, one person was Mr Jabulani Radebe's son as well as Masojay(?) Radebe.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, how old were these two people that you mentioned now?
CHAIRPERSON: At that time.
MR PANDAY: At the time of the attack.
MR SBISI: I do not really know, but they were about the same height as myself but I cannot specify their ages.
MR PANDAY: Well how old do you think they were?
MR SBISI: I cannot estimate that because I have just done the same with the Mbongwa boy and make a mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Sbisi, would you say they were young men or were they old, 70 years old, 50 years old, or were they in their primes, strong, fit, young?
MR SBISI: They were young men.
MR PANDAY: You see Mr Sbisi, that's the problem we're having, you were the Commander of the SDU that existed in the area and if you read page 19 again, on paragraph 19, three lines from the bottom of that paragraph you say that
"Nobody above myself ever gave instructions to commit such acts, it was purely decided by members mentioned above who were physically involved and worried."
Now you tell us in one breath that you were the person responsible for all these attacks and you could only give the decision, but yet you as a member or the person in charge, can't identify all these people properly, how is it that you place the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, whose name you do not know, as being an IFP, active IFP member?
MR DEHAL: Sorry, only whose first name he does not know, he knew him as Mbongwa.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he knew him as Mbongwa.
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, if you'll bear with me, that is the point.
CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on, perhaps just rephrase it.
MR PANDAY: You being the head of this organisation, in charge of the organisation, you did not know the full details of people that you were going to attack, but yet you want to protect your members, now how is it just for this incident on the Mbongwa family, you assume it to be the eldest son and not know his full details, but yet for the Radebe family you can identify all of the parties by their first, middle and last names? Why is there a discrepancy here with the Mbongwa family and the Radebe family?
MR SBISI: Prior to the violence I did not know the Mbongwa son well, but with regards to the others, I knew them in the community prior to the violence and also for the fact that they were also in may age group.
MR PANDAY: You say they were also in your age group, so was the Mbongwa son not in your age group?
MR SBISI: I would not say he was because I was usually in the company of my peers, but I would not be in a position to describe him fully. I first knew him when I saw him in instances when we were attacked and secondly, when the community itself starting complaining of him.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, when was the first attack made by the Mbongwa son, when did he first start attacking people, the Mbongwa son, what year?
MR SBISI: It was in 1992.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Panday, just before you proceed I just want to get clarity on your instructions. You've referred to the Mbongwa family as they appear on page 3 of the indictment, Charge 3 of the indictment, were there any other sons who weren't attempted murder victims in the sense that they might not have been at home that day and they were some place else?
MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman, this is the only victims that we're referring to, these are the family members, there are no other family members.
Those are my instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: So that's the entire family?
MR PANDAY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I just wanted to clear that up.
MR PANDAY: You mentioned in 1992, do you recall the month of 1992?
MR SBISI: I do not recall the month.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, is it correct that you apply for amnesty in respect of three incidents, namely the Radebe necklacing, the Pumzile, the murder of Pumzile and you mentioned one other incident with regards to Kamanati Sithole? Now were these the only incidents that took place in this area?
MR SBISI: No.
MR PANDAY: Were there many more incidents?
CHAIRPERSON: I think - you're talking about incidents committed by the ANC/SDU?
MR PANDAY: If I may just rephrase the question to him.
Mr Sbisi, in the area you lived were there lots of incidents of violence?
MR SBISI: Yes, there were many incidents of violence because there are many instances that I can specify where our members were killed as well as instances IFP members were also killed. In some instances the members from the two political organisations would sometimes meet and engage in fights that were ...(indistinct) sanctioned by the organisation.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, were you involved in more than the three incidents mentioned here?
MR SBISI: I only took part in the incidents that I enumerated in my application.
MR PANDAY: Now you see Mr Sbisi, that's another issue to consider, you were the head of the Self Defence Unit that was formed to protect your members, now how is it being the head you only were involved in three incidents and not the many incidents that took place? Because you had to make the decisions, you had to give the orders, now what head were you really? Was someone else higher than you or were you the main person to speak to?
CHAIRPERSON: Or was your SDU Unit only involved in three incidents?
MR SBISI: As I mentioned before there were incidents that took place without being sanctioned by us.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Panday, if I might just interject while on this.
Those six people that you sent off to the Mbongwa house to attack it that night, you've mentioned three of them as being youths and you've mentioned the names of three, were those people ever trained?
MR SBISI: The Bhekuzulu area was a stronghold of the IFP, most people go to learn about the ANC after we had distributed pamphlets, election pamphlets, that was when most people got to know about the ANC and what they stood for.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but my question was, those people that went on the operation to the Mbongwa house, that went off with the guns and the petrol bombs, were they trained people, had they received any military or paramilitary training, or were they just loose cannons?
MR SBISI: They were not trained.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, just on the point, you as the Commander who had to protect the people sent untrained people to attack an alleged IFP activist, now didn't you doubt that this operation is going to fail?
MR SBISI: I sent those people for the reason that I realised their commitment and their courage in the struggle that we were in.
MR PANDAY: Now you accept the possibility that they would have attacked the wrong family, seeing that they were untrained.
MR SBISI: No, I would not accept that because the people we used were from the area, they were residents in that same area, so they knew the area well.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I may stand to be corrected, you mentioned that you first took notice of the Mbongwa son during a march, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: He said he first noticed him during the attacks, yes.
And I think he was one of the persons who chased you at that march, yes. So it must be I think, just by deduction.
MR PANDAY: Now the Mbongwa child, the son, do you recall the year that he first chased you?
MR SBISI: I do recall the year, not the month.
MR PANDAY: What year was that?
MR SBISI: It was in 1992.
MR PANDAY: And he would have been approximately 13 to 14 years back then, if this is the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, is that correct, who was 15 at the time of the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it's a question of arithmetic, we don't have to get everything ...(indistinct) on the evidence.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, it is the belief of the family - firstly, it is my instructions that the son was not a political activist, two, he was only 15 years of age at the time, who was very much involved in school, and it is my further instructions that he's currently in school and he's approximately 19 years of age to date, and they cannot accept your version that the killing or the attempted killing of the son which went wrong, was as a result of a political motive. More importantly, you are adamant to the fact that you were not present at this attack, now the only question that comes to mind thereafter is how you were linked to the murder of this child, the daughter, Pumzile Mbongwa. Now it doesn't take someone with an exorbitant amount of intelligence to establish that the only possible way that you could have been linked to this attack is by virtue of the fact that someone had to identify you as being at the scene, and this is very evidence in the judgment that was delivered, on page 27, five lines from the bottom of that page, where the judgment is quoted as saying the following ...(intervention)
MR DEHAL: Sorry, perhaps at this stage there have been three questions so far in that long question. If in fairness the witness can just answer the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It is getting a bit lengthy, perhaps ...(intervention)
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I haven't directed the question.
CHAIRPERSON: He's actually put forward a prosthesis here, saying that - what Mr Panday is saying, Mr Sbisi, is that he is wondering how you at your trial were connected with the death of Pumzile Mbongwa and he is suggesting that the only reason he can think of why you were implicated at the trial and why you were convicted was because you were actually seen to be participating yourself in the attack, and now he's referring to page 27 in the judgment.
You may now refer to that.
MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Sbisi, you've heard what the Chairman has just said to you and more importantly, this identification is substantiated by the judgment on page 27, where the judge says or summarises the evidence of the mother -
"At the window she saw the accused with the firearm"
And now Mr Sbisi, the doubt that one now has in your evidence of even to the point of disclosure, is that you firstly deny that, thereafter you hand in a supplementary affidavit or an affidavit rather, marked Exhibit A, which contradicts your affidavit on page 19, or the paragraph that is on page 19. Now Mr Sbisi, it is my respectful submission that you are not disclosing to this Committee as to your whereabouts on the day of the 23rd of January, the day when Pumzile Mbongwa was killed. Do you have any comment on that?
MR SBISI: Yes, I can comment. On that day and on that year we were fugitives because our homes had been burnt, we had been chased out of our homes, we were at that point using somebody else's house as a base where we slept, where we hid and it was not easy for IFP members to access that place for them to kill our members.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, you said you hid at this house, so is it correct that people did not know where you were?
CHAIRPERSON: I mean unless he was hiding all alone, he was with other people.
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the point one wants to confirm is ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: The authorities or the IFP people?
MR PANDAY: If Mr Chairman will allow me to extract an answer from the applicant, then that would be substantiated by a following question.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, you mentioned just a while ago that you were in hiding and you were fugitives, so did anyone know where to find you?
MR SBISI: It was not easy for people to know because we used different houses at different points. At that point we were on the run from the police who were on a campaign to arrest and harass ANC members, which they did not do to the IFP, and for that reason it was not easy for people to find out where we lived because we were on the run from the police and also from our attackers.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, when there was a contradiction in your affidavits as to you falling asleep and then being unable to sleep, you mentioned you went to guard, now why should you have that worry to guard if people cannot find you, it was not easy for them to find you?
MR SBISI: On that day we were using the Ngcobo household as a base, the attackers knew that most of the comrades used that house as a base because we had to stay together. It was not easy for them to move from that area, from their area to attack us there, we would normally be able to stop them along the way and they would flee back to their own area.
MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, that's just it, you contradict yourself once again, first it was not easy for them to find you, you were able to hide from the attackers and the police and now you say the attackers knew that the house was used as a base ...(intervention)
MR DEHAL: No, that's not what he said.
MR MALAN: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR PANDAY: I understand it ...
MR DEHAL: Sorry, he did not say that this is the house that the attackers knew he was in, he said the attackers knew where ANC personnel and people had taken refuge in ..(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That he was there. But Mr Panday, I don't know if you're getting anywhere because - are you now going to argue that - well we know your version, your version is that he was on the scene, but if people are on the run and are hiding and shifting from one place to another, it certainly not unreasonable to have a guard to check ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR PANDAY: I concede, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: In fact, if I was on the run doing that I would think it would be negligent just to sit inside and not know what's going on outside.
MR PANDAY: I concede, Mr Chairman, thank you. In the light of that there's nothing further, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair. Before I address the questions I just want clarification, I don't know whether I should ask the applicant or through the legal representation, it's about the incident which is on Annexure A, of Sithole, paragraph 21.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: Of Sithole, Kamanati.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I think ...(intervention)
MS THABETHE: Paragraph 21.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: My difficulty, Mr Chair, is that it's the first time we hear about this incident, it was not mentioned anywhere in the applicant's application. So I'm faced with a very difficult situation because the Act requires us to notify the victims and also I'm not sure about the cut-off date as well, whether that can be encompassed since it wasn't there in the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand those difficulties. Mr Dehal?
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, those appear to be reasonable difficulties, I unfortunately have no answer for that ....(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think that was when I - remember when I was asking that this is very brief, in fact it's correct, there's no mention of Sithole.
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, you will recall the difficulty I had is that Ms Kooverjee yesterday consulted ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we're no blaming anybody, Mr Dehal, we just want to - you see the situation is we can't consider applications for amnesty that weren't made within the time limit, I know that we do give leeway that is somebody applies for the murder of somebody and he hasn't applied for being in possession of a firearm and he used an illegal firearm to shoot the person, then sometimes they include it, but when they came in with a completely new incident of a serious nature such as a murder that hasn't been mentioned before, then there's legal difficulties, it's not a question of us not wanting to or that it's a question of us not being able to hear it. So that is the first difficulty, and then the second difficulty is, we know that - well we don't know when it was, the cut-off dates as you know is 10th of May 1994, I don't know when it's alleged that this murder took place. It would seem ...(intervention)
MS THABETHE: December.
CHAIRPERSON: ... that it took place before his arrest, yes, so that's not a problem. But our difficulty is, are we seized with it, can we be seized with it?
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I need to look at these documents more fully, unfortunately I did not study them as detailed ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can adjourn until tomorrow. I see it's quite late now, but are there any other difficulties that need to be addressed now instead of being raised tomorrow morning, that you have, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: No, it was just that, Mr Chair, otherwise I was going to be very short with my cross-examination.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well perhaps you can be very short. Should we finish it?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
On page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 2, you indicate Mr Majola, that - Mr Sbisi, that you were involved in the planning of attacking Mr Mbongwa, where did the planning take place?
MR SBISI: We were at the Ndumo house.
MS THABETHE: How many were you when you planned this?
MR SBISI: If I'm not mistaken we were eight or nine.
MS THABETHE: Were you all SDU members?
MR SBISI: Some of us were and some were not.
MS THABETHE: Now what exactly did you decide during your planning, how were you going to attack Mr Mbongwa?
MR SBISI: The plan was, we had received information that the Mbongwa boy was present at home because at that haunt(?) he did not reside at his home but had fled to somebody else's house. His home was on the boundaries between these two areas. The decision was that he would be removed from the house and be killed outside.
MS THABETHE: Right. So on the night in question when the other people left, that was the plan, to take him from his home I guess ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what he said, the decision was to remove him from the house and to kill him outside.
MS THABETHE: And why wasn't this done? Why was a petrol bomb thrown inside?
MR SBISI: After I had learnt about the death of that girl when I was questioning them, they informed me that when they arrived there the lights were switched off and for that reason they threw in a petrol bomb and they started firing. Even then I was very sceptical of their act because I knew how many bullets were in the firearms that they had had in their possession and I discovered that only two bullets were used in one firearm that had been used by Zwee(?). That is why I maintain that the death of that girl was caused by Zwee whose firearm had two bullets missing on their return.
CHAIRPERSON: It would also be a weak reason as to why to throw the petrol bomb, just because the lights were out, I mean what would they have done there if the lights were on? Anyway, carry on.
MR MALAN: Sorry, but didn't you say in paragraph 16 on page 5 of your statement that only the next day after they had reported to you, did you learn that the young girl died? And that you only then checked the firearms and noted that there were two used cartridges. Here in your statement you don't say that you did it in on their return, you said you did it the following day after you got the news that Mbongwa wasn't killed, that it was his daughter(sic) killed. That's page 5 of the affidavit, paragraph 16.
CHAIRPERSON: It's of Exhibit A.
MR MALAN: Of Exhibit A, I'm sorry.
MR SBISI: Please repeat that question.
MR MALAN: You told us now in response to a question by Ms Thabethe, that when they came back you immediately checked the firearms and you found the two bullets were spent, to cartridges, and that you therefore knew it to be, I think you said Zwee, who shot. Who is Zwee, Ndumo or Mashandolo? Because you didn't mention him in this first statement, but probably Ndumo. Now I'm referring you to your statement which was signed and which was handed into us, signed today. In that statement, in paragraph 16 on page 5 you say that only after you had heard that the girl had died, did you check the firearms and you say it was the next day. Now when did you check it?
MR SBISI: I checked on the following day after receiving information that a girl had been killed.
MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when did you hear about the death of Pumzile, or of a girl being killed, the next day or that night? The night of the attack or the next morning?
MR SBISI: I heard about it on the following morning.
CHAIRPERSON: So then why did you - okay, so what did the people tell you when they came back? You said you waited for them, you waited up, you did a patrol for half an hour, eight thirty to nine and then you waited for them to return, what did they tell you when they returned then?
MR SBISI: For the reason that it was difficult for all of them to return it was only Zwee who returned. He informed me that the boy had been killed, the rest had gone to hide the firearms that had been used because the police were now all around ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understand it, and then the next morning you learnt what really happened and that a girl in fact had been killed and not the boy. Yes, thank you. Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Chair.
MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just follow up here.
Why did they go and hide the weapons? You issued them with the weapons and you issued them with the petrol bombs, why did they go and hide it, why did they not return it to you?
MR SBISI: The reason they didn't bring the guns to me it was because every time after a shooting police would come and in our area there was no electricity, it was easy for us to identify a car from a distance, therefore if you see that car coming it wasn't wise to carry those guns because they were scared that they might be searched by the police. Or even if they're coming to our base they would not bring the firearms with them because they wouldn't want the police to find the firearms with us.
MR MALAN: And why did you issue them with the petrol bombs, what were they to do with the petrol bombs?
MR SBISI: We were using petrol bombs because sometimes when we were on our way to attack we will find that whoever we were there to attack, had been ready for us and they were armed, so it was easy for us to use the petrol bomb against such incidents.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.
MS THABETHE: Thank you.
I would be correct therefore to say that the petrol bombing of Mbongwa's house was done outside the decisions that were taken during your planning ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, I think that's - he said so, I mean he said the planning was to remove him and shoot him. That's for argument, you don't have to get everything on ...(indistinct)
MS THABETHE: Okay.
My last question is, how was attacking Mr Radebe going to further the objectives of your organisation?
MR SBISI: We were trying to destabilise the IFP base because one, Mr Radebe used to bring people from outside who were IFP supporters, who were not the residents of the area, he would harbour them, IFP attackers. People we never even met before were attacking us, therefore we saw it as a reason that if we attack him we will defeat the IFP.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.
MR MALAN: May I just refer you quickly to page 18 again, Mr Sbisi, this is the affidavit or the statement that you made to the TRC Investigator you said you trusted and therefore you told us here you spoke the truth, it was a truthful statement, that's how you were interpreted. The 10th line from the bottom on page 18, you are saying that your intention was to give him opportunity to run away but that you were overpowered by the angry mob. Do you see that?
CHAIRPERSON: Are we still talking about the Radebe attack?
MR MALAN: Yes, the attempted necklacing of Radebe.
Do you see that?
MR SBISI: Yes.
MR MALAN: Is that true?
MR SBISI: Yes it is partly true. What I meant here is that these were the words I said to Mr Dladla because I wanted Mr Dladla to release Mr Radebe in my hands or to give him to me.
MR MALAN: No, you're not saying these were the words you used to Mr Dladla, you're telling the Investigator that you negotiated with the head of the family for him to be released into your hands, he was then led to the local school, and then you say it was your intention to give him an opportunity to run away and only at school yard was it agreed that he must be necklaced. That's what you're telling us there.
Now that certainly is not the same story as what you tell us in the affidavit that you signed today, where clearly it was your intention where you went you forced him to drink petrol, you poured the petrol into the tyre when he was necklaced, you set it alight. Which story is true? Do you have any comment?
MR SBISI: What I can say is that it wasn't going to be easy for me to rescue Mr Radebe, because also my aim was that he should be killed because they had killed quite a number of ANC members and the people who were responsible for that were brought in the area by Mr Radebe, therefore we saw it that he should be killed. He used to bring people from outside our area and kill us. You will meet people you don't know in the street and those people were just shooting at us. If I can put an example, when a man was killed it was because of Mr Jabulani Radebe.
MR MALAN: No, I don't think you have to go into that, that does not relate to my question. A last question, in the judgment there's a reference to some bringing of yourself before this Chief, before Radebe, by the Ntjalintjali(?) family. You denied it, the story that was Wusani Ntjalintjali said that you were brought before the Chief. I'm referring you now to page 27 of the bundle. Were you ever before the Chief?
MR SBISI: That is not true, it never happened.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination?
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, could I perhaps ask that this matter be adjourned until tomorrow, so that I can take instructions on that one aspect and then establish whether there are aspects. As presently advised there appears to be none.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that it's now nearly quarter to five, the interpreters are working overtime and we've been talking all day, I think it would be appropriate if we did and then I'd ask please to consider your submissions in this matter, that we'll just take submissions and then proceed with the next matter after that tomorrow.
So we'll adjourn till tomorrow, what 9 o'clock?
MR MALAN: Chair, with your permission, just before we adjourn, may we ask Mr Dehal to furnish us with the other affidavits in advance, so we can all read them, exchange them, so that we don't have to verbatim read them again into the record, it will save a lot of time, please.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you be able to make it by 9 o'clock or ...?
MR DEHAL: Mr Dehal, I'll be able to make it nine, on the basis that I begin with the next person that I'm ready for. The only one problem I have is that today we took instructions and dictated statements for the other persons, if I would wait for them to be typed, that might delay me a little. Unless I could arrange for them when typed ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: To be faxed?
MR DEHAL: To be faxed, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a fax facility here. Perhaps before you go Mr Dehal, if you could link up with Ms Thabethe, get the fax number so that you can then fax it, and I think there's photocopying facilities here as well, so they can then make a photocopy of the fax and I'm sure that will be sufficient for our purposes, we won't insist upon having the actual original.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Then we'll adjourn this matter for continuation tomorrow at 9 o'clock or so soon thereafter as possible, when we'll finish and then resume with the rest of the roll after that, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
