Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: We will now be dealing with the next application, that is the application of Mr Khanyile. I would just at this stage like to ask the legal representative kindly to place themselves on record.

MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Ms Padiachey and I represent the applicant. I will be calling the applicant only.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Padiachey.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am Raven Harkoo, I represent the victims, Sgt Nxumalo and Sgt Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Harkoo.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. I am Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC. I'm also representing the implicated persons in this matter, they've asked me to assist them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.

FRANK BIGBOY KHANYILE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Padiachey?

EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, do you recall making an application for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: And is that the application that was made on the 8th of May 1997?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, I show you the application for amnesty, which is pages 1 to page 7, do you confirm having made this application?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: And Mr Khanyile, I see that you've also made an affidavit. Do you confirm the contents of this affidavit, which is pages 8 and 9 of the bundle?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: Do you confirm that this affidavit is true and correct and that you have not been influenced in making this affidavit?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Khanyile. Mr Khanyile, I refer you to this application that you've brought for amnesty and specifically with regards to the incident that you've referred to that occurred in October 1991, at a satellite station in Greytown. Do you recall this incident?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, can you perhaps inform the Committee your political affiliations at this time.

MR KHANYILE: I was a UDF supporter. In 1990 there was an ANC branch that was launched so I joined it.

MS PADIACHEY: And what position did you hold in this ANC branch?

MR KHANYILE: I was the Chairperson of the Youth League, ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this in Greytown, Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, in Greytown.

MS PADIACHEY: And Mr Khanyile, at this time who was the Chairperson of the ANC branch for Greytown?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Solomon Mzolo. He's now deceased.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, I refer you to the incident that occurred in the Selagahle township of Greytown, and at the firing at the police station. Can you perhaps inform the Committee why this incident had occurred.

MR KHANYILE: There was ongoing conflict between the ANC and the IFP in Greytown. This continued, but it was discovered that the police aligned themselves to one side, that is the IFP.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, do you have proof or is it an allegation that the police was aligned to the IFP in Greytown at this time?

MR KHANYILE: We did have proof of that because when we were attacked by the IFP, they would be present but they would not be arrested.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, you have noted that there has been ongoing violence in Greytown at this stage, did you or any of your other comrades at this time do anything to assist or to hinder the violence in this area at this time?

MR KHANYILE: What we used to do was to protect our community which was dominated by the ANC.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, you've made this application for amnesty, has there been a criminal charge emanating from this application?

MR KHANYILE: No, I was never prosecuted, except for a firearm that was found in my possession and was confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, were you prosecuted for that, Mr Khanyile, and were you convicted and sentenced?

MR KHANYILE: I did appear in court for that offence but I was acquitted. It had been found at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Ms Padiachey, if I could just as a question.

You said that you discovered that the police were aligning themselves with the IFP, what police are you talking about Mr Khanyile, are you talking about the South African Police or KwaZulu Police, or both?

MR KHANYILE: It was the SAP, but there were others who were reserves and belonged to the KwaZulu Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Padiachey, you may continue.

MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, you've indicated that you've been acquitted of possession of a firearm, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MS PADIACHEY: And during the course of making this application for amnesty, were you aware that there was no charges against you in this matter?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the attack on the police station.

MR KHANYILE: Please repeat your question.

MS PADIACHEY: Are you aware Mr Khanyile, that there have been no charges against you on the attack on the police station?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I am.

MS PADIACHEY: And Mr Khanyile, why in fact did you make your application for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: The reason why I submitted that application it's because of the situation from the area that I come from, also for the reason that I am remorseful for the act because it happened in the course of the political conflict between those two organisations.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I ask, is it not also because of the fact that there was a call from leadership that you do make application, that everybody makes application if they had anything to tell?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I was coming to that, that even in the media and everywhere else the leaders were calling for anyone who had committed a political offence, to come forward because it could be that you may be prosecuted later. That is what occurred to me, that I may also be later prosecuted in the Greytown area for that offence.

MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Khanyile. So would it be correct to say that you made this application of your own free will?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, I refer you to the attack on the police substation, that is the South African Police sub-station in Greytown in October 1991. Were you - it is said from your affidavit that you were part of this incident, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MS PADIACHEY: And that you have shown remorse to the families, or you would like to inform the Committee that you in fact are seeking reconciliation with regards to this incident that has occurred. Is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us about the attack, who took part and how it went.

MR KHANYILE: During the fights that we had with the IFP, the police would be with the IFP and they would not even arrest them. At some point our Chairperson was attacked five times at his home.

After a while the Chairperson called a meeting of the youth and it was attended by boys only. He asked us if we are aware of the attacks that are being launched by the IFP, in collusion with the police because the IFP were never arrested and their cases were never followed up. The Chairperson then informed us that we should protect ourselves. And the police would be with the IFP and they would shoot at people in broad daylight.

After the meeting he called me and informed me that I should go keep guard because my home was close to the IFP stronghold, so he instructed me to go keep guard or go and keep watch over there. He said we should go and intimidate them or try to alarm them by going and shooting in their area because there had been information received to the effect that they came from that area to attack us. On another day we organised that we would go there and then shoot in their direction.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, when you and these other people had accompanied you to shoot at the substation in Greytown, what was your aim and what was your motive of going to shoot there, apart from explaining to them or trying to show them that you were still strong?

MR KHANYILE: We were following an instruction from the Chairperson that we should towards their direction, shoot at them to show them that the ANC are alive and well in the area. In that way they would be intimidated and they perhaps would stop their campaign of attacking us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, sorry to interrupt. Who selected that particular police station as a target?

MR KHANYILE: It was the Chairperson, Mr Mzolo.

CHAIRPERSON: He mentioned that there should be shooting at the police station?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, he said we should go shoot at that police station because information had come that the IFP warlords or some of the attackers came from the police station. Because that police station did not work as it should as an ordinary police station.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with?

MR KHANYILE: We were armed with AK47 rifles. I was carrying an HMC.

CHAIRPERSON: HMC, that's a hand machine-gun?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, when you attacked this police station and you had in your possession an HMC machine-gun, did you in fact shoot with this gun towards the police station?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I did.

MS PADIACHEY: Are you aware of anyone being injured at this police station, whilst you were shooting?

MR KHANYILE: I did not know at the time, I only learnt of it after a few days, that somebody had been injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Padiachey, just while we're on this.

So you went outside the police station and just shot at the building or did you go inside the police station and shoot at the people behind the charge desk, what was the situation, Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: The police station was next to the road, there was a house also nearby, that is where we were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just shot from the outside, you shot at the police station building?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, we were outside in a house that we were hiding in and we were directing our shots towards a police vehicle that approached at that time, and also towards the building itself.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, this police station that you were firing at, was it a building made of bricks or was it made of, was it a caravan, a substation?

MR KHANYILE: It was made of something that looked like masonite.

CHAIRPERSON: A prefab building.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I would say so.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, when you had fired at this police station, were shots being returned back to you?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, as we were firing we heard gunshots coming from the police station but then at the time we were fleeing. I did not know who was firing, whether it was the people who were in the vehicle or whether it was the people inside the building.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this during the daylight or was it night-time?

MR KHANYILE: It was at night.

MS PADIACHEY: And Mr Khanyile, when it was at night, how long do you think the shooting happened, how long did it occur, how long did it last?

MR KHANYILE: It was about 10pm, but we did not take long, it couldn't have been more than five minutes. Because we were on the alert that maybe some policeman could emerge from the building and start shooting at us.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know any of those policemen personally, that may have been there or not or was it just an attack on a police station, or were you having any particular policemen in mind?

MR KHANYILE: Actually we had not intended the attack on a specific person but we were just shooting at the police because they also used to shoot at people in broad daylight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Padiachey.

Sorry, how large was your group that went to attack? How many - you say "we"?

MR KHANYILE: I think there were about four or five of us.

MR MALAN: Sorry, you gave the names of Buthelezi, Khune, Mgadi and Mzila and yourself, that's five.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR KHANYILE: It was not all of us who were armed with a firearm, one person was not armed with such. If I'm not mistaken.

MR MALAN: And that was Mgadi, according to your statement.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Yes, thank you.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Khanyile, your attack on the police station and taking into account the violence in the Greytown at this stage, would you say that your attack was intentional and that you wanted to perhaps see that someone would be injured at that stage?

MR KHANYILE: It was not our intention to injure or to kill someone specifically, but it was to intimidate them and to make them aware that they ANC are alive and well. But somebody could have been injured because we were shooting in that direction.

MS PADIACHEY: Or someone could have died, you accepted that?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it could have happened because that person would have been hit by a bullet, but it would not have been an intentional, our intention to go out and kill a specific person.

MR MALAN: Yes, thank you.

MS PADIACHEY: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Padiachey. Mr Harkoo, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Yes, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Khanyile, you've mentioned that the attack was on the police station and that you were not sure whether the return of the shooting had come from the police vehicle or from people in the building.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR HARKOO: You were aware that there were people in the building at that time, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: There were people who resided at the police station, because there had been information to the effect that the police were harbouring IFP youths in there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you went there Mr Khanyile, were the lights on, were there lights on or was it dark, as if it was either empty or if there were people inside, they were asleep?

MR KHANYILE: Some areas were lit and some were dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Khanyile, just to clarify the issue. This satellite police station, is it true that it was basically a full-fledged police station that was operating?

MR KHANYILE: I would not say that it was fully operational because for instance you could not lay charges there, they will tell you to go to town. They were there just to watch and guard over what was happening, that is the violence between the ANC and the IFP.

MR HARKOO: Yes, but there was a charge office there, isn't that so?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, there was.

MR HARKOO: And there were admin offices there as well, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I would say there were offices and there were people working in those offices and there were holding cells as well.

MR HARKOO: Yes, there were holding cells and there were also barracks where some of the policemen stay overnight, isn't that correct as well?

MR KHANYILE: I only learnt of the barracks now recently, but there would be police at the time. I do not know whether they slept there overnight or not.

MR HARKOO: You see, I'm trying to establish Mr Khanyile, precisely when this attack that you are referring to took place. My instructions are that in October '91, this police station was not completed at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, by that Mr Harkoo, what do you mean? It was there but they were still working on it or it was uninhabitable because it hadn't reached the stage of completion to be habitable? Do you have any detail on that or not?

MR HARKOO: My instructions Mr Chairman, is that the station was virtually completed but it was not operational. There was a bit finer finishes to be still done, like painting and so on, but it was not operational.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What do you say to that, Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: I would not be in a position to really dispute that because I did not keep guard over what was happening, every detail that was happening in the police station. But there was a policeman at that station because there was a Sgt Mzolo who used to be there. When you came to the office to lay a charge, he would direct you to town. They also had a police flag. There were several offices and they had a dog unit as well. So I'm not in a position to dispute or admit to what he is saying.

MR HARKOO: Yes, you see my instructions Mr Khanyile, is that shortly thereafter, this particular police station was - although it was referred to as a satellite station, was in fact a full-fledged and operational police station. That was sometime in '92. Will that be correct?

MR KHANYILE: I am not in a position to say whether that is correct or not, but what I recall was that that police station had been set up to try and take action about the violence that was prevalent in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Harkoo, if I may just intervene.

When did the attack take place?

MR KHANYILE: In 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember the date?

MR KHANYILE: I do not remember the date but it was after the May 5 incident where there was a huge war between the ANC and the IFP in Greytown. On that day there was war and this attack was carried out in 1991. That is what I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't know - just looking at the file Mr Harkoo, just on this point, I see there's a Sgt Zwane who says that it took place on the 28th of October 1991 and then I see in another - that's on page 15, and then I see on another, somewhere else it says that "During April 1992 there was an attack on a police station but no-one was injured."

That might have been a different attack. That's page 17, also by Zwane.

MR HARKOO: Yes, Mr Chairman. I think for the record, the name is Harkoo, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Harkoo. Sorry, Mr Harkoo. Yes, but the applicant says he's not sure but he says it was in 1991.

MR HARKOO: I'm trying to establish, Mr Chairman, precisely when the attack took place. The reason being is that there appears to have been - well my instructions are that there were in fact two attacks, one some time in October 1991, where my clients, the victims, were in fact injured at that attack and one ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The April one where no-one was injured.

MR HARKOO: ... and the April one where no-one was injured. And also in '91 there were no arrests and at that point in time the station was not operational.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

You've heard that Mr Khanyile, apparently there were two attacks or at least two attacks that we know of on that police station, according to Mr Harkoo's instructions. One was in October '91 and one was in April '92. You don't know when you attacked whether you injured anybody or not. Mr Harkoo wants to establish exactly which attack you were involved in. How do you know that you were involved in the attack in which two people were injured, as you say in your application? Perhaps that might lead us to it.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR KHANYILE: I was involved in the 1991 attack. I heard about the attack in 1992, because I was still the Chairperson of the Youth League at that time. But that 1992 incident is a separate incident that I was not involved in. The one that I was involved where I shot, was in 1991.

MR MALAN: May I just interrupt a moment. Mr Khanyile, will you have a look at page 2 of the bundle, which is your application which you confirmed. You look at 9(a)(ii). When you applied you said you think the date was '92, April or March. Isn't that more probable if you say the station was operational and you went there, there was a police flag and you could go there, there was a charge office, there were administration offices? Are you sure it was '91, couldn't it have been '92, as you originally told us?

MR KHANYILE: What I remember clearly, the incident that I was involved in is the one on which two persons were injured. It may be that I'm mistaking the date because of the time that has elapsed, but when I was involved in that attack two people were injured. It could be that I made a mistake when I wrote down the date but if the victims who were injured remember it as 1991, it must be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it seems from the record - sorry, Mr Malan, from the record, page 20 which is a notification from the Greytown Police, that the October 91 incident in which Sgts Nxumalo and Zwane were injured. So think that's quite clear. Because they were injured in the October 1991 incident.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR HARKOO: That is true, Mr Chairman, except that the remainder of the facts that I've looked at from the papers and from what has been said, appears to be consistent with the '92 attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on Mr Harkoo, ask questions on it.

MR HARKOO: Mr Khanyile, whilst we're there on that issue of the date of the attack, you also mentioned on page 5 of the bundle that at that point in time, that the incident occurred around March or April 1992. So it was the second time that you've mentioned that. Is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I will reiterate that I may have made a mistake because at the time that I made this application I was not in a state of good health, but the incident involving the two people who were injured had everything to do with me, I was involved in that incident. Maybe the 1992 that is recorded in the form is a mistake.

MR HARKOO: Okay. When did you hear of the two persons being injured? When did you get to know that there were two persons injured in the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Maybe on the following day. It was the following day in the afternoon. I heard that they were injured but they did not die.

MR HARKOO: You see when you were asked by Members of the Chair your reasons for your application, you mentioned that among other things, that you were remorseful and it was a call from leadership but also that you were concerned that you may be prosecuted. Is it not true that your main reason for your application is that you are concerned that you may be prosecuted now?

MR KHANYILE: There are many reasons that I can state before this Committee, but I will not touch on that because they do not link to my application. But as I said before, the leaders made that call to all the branches, that everyone who was involved in the violence of the past should come out and seek amnesty. They also explained that if you did not apply for amnesty, you could be in trouble if it is found out that you were involved in an offence.

Also I wanted to reconcile with the people who were injured on that day. I would like to meet them, reconcile, so that we can get on with our lives. And also be granted an opportunity to apologise to them, more so for the reason that they did not know who had committed that offence. I decided that I should come out because even where I come from I'm still not in a safe situation. That is why I also decided that I should come out in the open before maybe somebody else points a finger at me.

This is why I took this opportunity to come out in the open because the situation in Greytown was very bad. There were people who were killed in Greytown on the 5th of May, by the police, and no-one was arrested for that incident.

Even up to these days the police are not doing their job properly as they should. I would like to work with the police hand-in-hand to eradicate crime. That is the major reason why I am here. Being prosecuted is just one other reason that is not major, but I am here because I took part in the struggle and I should come out in the open. And this has been troubling me because I do not even go to church anymore because I know of these acts.

Sometimes I meet one of these persons and I talk to them and in the meanwhile they do not know that I am responsible for that attack on them. These are just the reasons that prompted me to come forward and state my role in the violence that was prevalent in 1992 in Greytown.

This is not a court of law, so I cannot state a lot of reasons why I come forward for amnesty. Three months ago I was nearly killed in Greytown for the reason that somebody alleged that I was a member of the UDM. So I know that I committed this crime and I should come forward and state my case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo.

MR HARKOO: Whilst I appreciate the other reasons, it is also important that this Committee hears exactly what happened. Now what I want to ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Mr Harkoo, may I just ask. Do you have any opposition to the application? You haven't given us an indication. Is the application being opposed?

MR HARKOO: My instructions, Members of the Chair, is that my clients would want to establish the extent to which the applicant is being truthful about the facts and then they would elect whether or not to give evidence in this matter.

MR MALAN: The reason why I'm asking this is, we have rather extensive information in the bundle, he has now extensively given information again, repeating and adding to what transpired and I don't want us unnecessarily to cover ground that will not have a bearing on the outcome of this application. If you would try to restrict then to what really is relevant, I'll appreciate it.

MR HARKOO: As you so please. I will just put now to the applicant what my clients have indicated to me.

Mr Khanyile, my instructions are that there were in fact only ...(indistinct) people at this satellite station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get that, there was a cough. Two people or three people?

MR HARKOO: Sorry, I said three people. That was the two persons who were guarding the station at the time and the driver a police vehicle that came to fetch him and that at no stage did anybody fire back at those that attacked the station. What do you have to say to that?

MR KHANYILE: With regards to the number of the people at the police station, I do not bear knowledge thereto because I did not go inside. But I was just following the instructions from my commander, that is to go there, shoot at the police station for the purpose of intimidating them so that they do not continue with their campaign.

MR MALAN: And the second part of the question, of the statement for your comment, that there was no shooting back at you?

MR KHANYILE: I did hear shots and it was coming from the direction of the police station. There are houses that were close to the police station, but there was a sound of gunshots that came from the station, from the police station. That was the reason why we also started to flee. I cannot say if they were the ones who were actually doing the shooting, maybe there were other people in the vicinity of that police station, who could have been firing at us. But I did hear somebody returning fire in our direction.

MR HARKOO: Mr Khanyile, my instructions are also that there was nobody arrested in connection with this incident, what do you have to say to that?

MR MALAN: I think that's common cause, Mr Harkoo.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anyone arrested or not?

MR KHANYILE: No, no-one was arrested.

MR HARKOO: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, on behalf of the implicated persons.

Mr Khanyile, as I've indicated that I've got some instructions from implicated persons and some questions that I've been instructed to ask you. My first question is, you've indicated that Mr Mzolo instructed you, who was the Chairperson, my question is, did you relate well, were you in good terms with Mr Mzolo?

MR KHANYILE: We were on good terms with Mr Mzolo, but that finished in 1993 or 1994. It could be that you heard that from somebody who may have seen things differently, but at that time we were on good terms. And I'm aware of when that changed, our good relationship changed and why it happened.

MS THABETHE: Yes because my instructions are that you were not in good terms, but you've clarified that so I'll move on.

MR KHANYILE: They were just using that information because up to his death, people were saying that we are not on good terms. There are many issues relating to Mr Mzolo and the organisations that I do not want to get into. What I would like to concentrate on is the incident that happened at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would also appreciate that but we're not stopping you from asking questions. The question was, at the time you were - the answer is, at the time you were on good terms with Mr Mzolo, that changed later.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that was just before his death.

MS THABETHE: Let me move on. My other instructions are that you were not a well-known member of the ANC and also you were someone who was very much involved in criminal activities and you were in and out of jail. Would you like to comment on that?

MR KHANYILE: I will put it clearly that such talk does not trouble me because that is what they always say and I'm aware who the individuals ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but there's been that allegation, what do you say to it? That you were often in trouble with the law and you were in and out of jail and you were involved in criminal activities.

MR KHANYILE: What I can say is that it happens to anybody who is still growing up.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not - I was just wanting to understand, you're not denying that?

MR KHANYILE: I was once arrested but it was not that I was in and out of prison.

MS THABETHE: Also, my instructions are that the people you claim that you were with, that is Jacob Buthelezi, John Khunene, and just for the record, Myboy Mgadi, his surname is not Mgadi but Xaba, X-a-b-a, and also Mlungisi Mzila, also his surname is not Mzila, it's Madlala, M-a-d-l-a-l-a. These people deny that they were there, they were involved in this incident. What is your comment to that?

MR KHANYILE: I will put it clearly, they are lying. I would not just pick on them and implicate them falsely. I have witnesses who can attest to the fact that they were present.

MS THABETHE: How were the people who were going to attack the police station, selected?

MR KHANYILE: Comrade Mzolo instructed me to target people and I then informed Jacob Buthelezi about this. That was after the meeting at Mr Mzolo's home. After I had informed him of the people I was going to take, he directed me to people who had firearms because the ones I had picked did not have firearms. And that is how we all went there.

MS THABETHE: My last question. I've also been instructed to find out from you that if all of you were involved in this incident, why didn't you inform your co-perpetrators that you had decided to apply for amnesty? That's a question I've been asked to ask you.

MR KHANYILE: I appreciate your question. The reason for not telling them was because I assumed that as loyal comrades they had every responsibility to do so because it was broadcast all over ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Can you slow down for the interpreter because what you are saying is important.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you started talking while the translation was still on. Will you just repeat what you said.

MS THABETHE: No, I was asking him to slow down because what he's saying is important, that the interpreter is not catching up. Just for him to slow down.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr Khanyile, you said that you assumed that as loyal comrades they would apply. Carry on.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, they did not need to be told by somebody else. I would also like to emphasise that when Mr Mzolo died in 1994, I was taken to comrade, that is myself and another comrade, on a voter registration course. When I returned from Johannesburg, Jacob Buthelezi and somebody else enquired as to why I was selected to go to Johannesburg because I was alleged to have killed Mr Mzolo for that position. So from that time onwards we were no longer on good terms. Everybody in the township knows that I am not on good terms with them and people are aware of the reasons thereof. I have been labelled many things, a UDM member and an informer. I know that I am now digressing from my application, but I was implicated in the death of Mzolo falsely.

Secondly, I was also labelled an informer for the same police station. That is, I had informed on the people who attacked the police station in 1992. And now I've been labelled a UDM member. These events all indicated to me that I should come to the Truth Commission because I am being implicated falsely for crimes that I have not done. There was even a threat of war at the township because of these issues I've just stated.

MR MALAN: You know I think it's clear, Mr Khanyile, at the time of your application the UDM was not existence yet, so that's not an issue.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Ms Padiachey, do you have any re-examination?

MS PADIACHEY: No, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SANDI: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, any questions you'd like to ask?

MR MALAN: No thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Khanyile, that then concludes your evidence in this matter, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Padiachey, you indicated earlier that you were only going to call Mr Khanyile, have you changed your mind?

MS PADIACHEY: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo, do you wish to call any witnesses?

MR HARKOO: No, I do not wish to.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you wish to call any witnesses?

MS THABETHE: Just one, Mr Chair. I'm calling Jacob Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you make some arrangement for where he will be sitting. Perhaps it might be possible if Mr Harkoo could just move a bit to his right, bring up a chair and - we can get a chair from below there and then the witness that you will be calling can come and sit next to Ms Thabethe.

Ms Thabethe, which person are you calling?

MS THABETHE: I'm calling Jacob Buthelezi, he is one of the implicated persons, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

VUSIMUSI JACOB BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, what are your full names please?

MR BUTHELEZI: Vusimusi Jacob Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Buthelezi, do you know the applicant as a member of the ANC or a comrade?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You heard what he says about the fact that you were involved in the attacking of a police satellite, what is your response to that?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is not true.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say this?

MR BUTHELEZI: For the reason that I was not present when the police station was attacked.

MS THABETHE: So why would he say you were there if you were not there?

MR BUTHELEZI: The information that the police station was going to be attacked was received by myself. I was with Johannes Nene, Mlungisi Madlala, Martin Mamabothe(?) and myself.

MS THABETHE: And what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: I mean he said he wasn't there and he only heard about it later. So what happened when?

MR MALAN: No, I thought he said - the translation said he received the information that it was to be attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR MALAN: Can I just get clarity on this.

Did you have knowledge of a pending attack before the attack was executed?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, it was Mr Khanyile who informed us about it.

MS THABETHE: What did Mr Khanyile say to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: He came to the people I've just mentioned and he said we should go and attack the police station and we refused because we were keeping guard, then he left with some people, one of them was Geneza Zungu.

MS THABETHE: Are you in good terms with the applicant?

MR BUTHELEZI: We have never quarrelled.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Ms Thabethe, if we could perhaps just clear up the one point.

When was this that you, you say Mr Khanyile came to you and said ... going to attack the police station and you refused. Can you remember the date? If you can't remember the date, can you remember the month and the year? If you can't remember the month, can you remember the year?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am not in a position to remember because the situation was such that we did not always keep in mind what was happening. There was too much happening in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MR MALAN: Just before you - sorry, Chair.

You said you were with, if I heard you correct, Khunene, Madlala and Mamabothe. I didn't get a note of Mgade's real surname.

MR BUTHELEZI: Xaba.

MR MALAN: Who is this Madlala? Oh, that's Mzila. And Mamabothe, who is Mamabothe?

MR BUTHELEZI: Dumakude.

MS THABETHE: D-u-m-a-k-u-d-e.

MR MALAN: Who is he?

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Dumakude?

MR BUTHELEZI: We were sitting at his house when Mr Khanyile arrived.

MR MALAN: And you said he went with other people, do you know who the other people are, their names of the people that then went with the applicant?

MR BUTHELEZI: He was with one person, it was Geneza Zungu.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Padiachey, are there any questions you would like to put to Mr Buthelezi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Mr Buthelezi, you've indicated that you do not know of the incident that has occurred, that the applicant has now made application for amnesty, that is correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't quite say that, he said that he wasn't involved in it. He said that he was asked to go and attack but he refused. I don't know whether he knows that there was a subsequent attack or not but he didn't take part.

MR BUTHELEZI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you later hear of an attack on a police station, after Mr Khanyile had spoken to you and you say he left with Zungu? Did you later receive a report that the police station had been attacked?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard on the following day, because in the Greytown area there was a lot of gunshots that went off during the day, so I only heard about it the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Padiachey.

MS PADIACHEY: Mr Buthelezi, this attack that you're referring to that you heard about, would this attack relate to the application that we have here before the Committee?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat that question.

MS PADIACHEY: The attack that you are referring to that occurred, that you heard about from Mr Khanyile, would that attack be the same attack that we have here before the Amnesty Hearing?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it is.

MR MALAN: I wonder, may I just ask.

Did you hear - when you hear about the attack, did you hear whether anybody was injured?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I only heard about it recently when I received a letter of notification.

MR MALAN: So you never knew that - you did never know that somebody had been wounded?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS PADIACHEY: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Harkoo?

MR HARKOO: I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, any questions. Mr Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Is it the position here that you were not as such opposed to the attack that was being proposed to you by the applicant, it is just that you were occupied at the time, you could not go? You say you were busy watching some place. What is the position?

MR BUTHELEZI: We did not intend to attack people. In fact we were not even fighting with the IFP, they would just come and attack us and they would be transported by Hippos. But we were not ones to go out and launch attacks, we were just protecting our homes.

ADV SANDI: I don't understand you, what did you understand to be the position of your organisation regarding attacks on police stations or members of the Police Force?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know about that. Maybe it was discussed amongst Chairpersons.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, were you at the time that you say that Mr Khanyile spoke to you about going to attack, a member of the Youth League of the ANC?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not in the Youth League because I was over age.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were a member of the ANC, or a supporter.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And Messrs Khunene, Xaba and Madladla, were they also members of the ANC? Were they comrades?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of them members of the Youth League?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we were old.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that in that area the ANC or UDF never at any stage launched an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we did not.

CHAIRPERSON: But we've heard today that the police station there was attacked at least twice, once by Mr Khanyile and then by some other persons unknown. Who do you think would have attacked the police station, if it wasn't ANC or UDF?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would not know because I and Mr Johannes Khunene were in his home because he had an AK47. We would be able to defend ourselves if people attacked us there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an AK47 at your disposal?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I was searched many times by the police but they never found a weapon on me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not what I'm asking, I'm asking did you have one at your disposal, not whether you were ever caught with a gun.

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And Khunene?

MR BUTHELEZI: That was the one AK47 that we trusted.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising, Ms Padiachey, from questions that have been put by Members of the Panel, that you would like to ask?

MS PADIACHEY: No, Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo, any questions arising?

MR HARKOO: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: No questions arising. Sorry, I forgot to ask, any re-examination that you'd like to put?

MS THABETHE: No re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, thank you, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, are you calling any further witnesses?

MS THABETHE: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that then the evidence in this matter. Ms Padiachey, do you have any submissions to make?

MS PADIACHEY IN ARGUMENT: Yes I do, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, it has been stated here before the hearing that Mr Khanyile was involved in an incident that occurred in October 1991. He has stated that he has brought it to the attention of the TRC Hearing, purely on the basis that he wanted to live a truthful life and he wanted to, the community to know at large about the incident that had occurred.

It has been stated by the police that an incident did occur and that they did not know who the culprits were behind the incident. I wish to state that Mr Khanyile has shown that the incident did occur and that he together with other perpetrators were involved in this incident.

I wish also to say that Mr Khanyile's actions were not based purely on gain or out of personal malice, but because of the unrest in Greytown area at this particular time and that the ANC was being fought with by the IFP, who according to Mr Khanyile, was taking sides with the South African Police and the ANC at this time particularly thought that they should take a stand.

I submit that Mr Khanyile's application should be considered and I leave it in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo.

MR HARKOO ADDRESS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I do not have any submission as such to make, apart to mention that my clients, the victims, are present should Mr Khanyile wish to address them in any form. I leave the rest in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Khanyile, you've heard that, that the two policemen who were injured in the attack are present and Mr Harkoo has indicated that if you wish to meet them, this might be a good opportunity to do so, when we're finished.

Do you have any further submissions?

MR HARKOO: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any submissions?

MS THABETHE IN ARGUMENT: Briefly, Mr Chair, thank you. I just want to put it on record as well again that the implicated persons deny their involvement in this incident. I can take this fact no further. It's also evident that subsequent to this incident there's been - or from the evidence of the applicant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because the applicant says that relationships have deteriorated to the extent of having broken down and Mr Buthelezi on the other hand says they've never had a problem.

MS THABETHE: Yes. Mr Chair, let me proceed. From the submissions of the ANC, it is evidence that it was the policy of the ANC to attack police stations because police stations were perceived as instruments of the apartheid government and they favoured the IFP. I won't dwell on that.

Mr Chair, ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, that was not the police according to the submissions in '92, it was earlier. Or do you have other information, because in terms of their submissions I think it was the policy up to 1990, but it was not the policy subsequent to 1990. Certainly not.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I don't have the submissions with me but I remember we had a matter on Monday, where a police station was attacked and I think the incident happened in 1994 and they referred to those submissions you know, so I'm not sure about the dates. But I know it was the policy of the ANC you know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I just wanted to make another point as well, that I can't imagine why a person would attack a police station for any personal gain, yes. I just wanted to add that. So I leave it in the hands of the Committee to make a decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Do you have any response, Ms Padiachey?

MS PADIACHEY: No, Mr Chairperson.

NO REPLY BY MS PADIACHEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter and hope to hand it down as soon as possible. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Khanyile.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. We're proceeding with the matter of Sosibo, which is the last matter on our roll for this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we have a five minute break, I think to stretch our legs and divorce our mind from the previous matter, so we can start with a slightly more fresh mind for the new matter. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS