ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: We'll now start with the next matter which is in fact our last matter on the roll, that is the application of Thandankosi Petros Sosibo. I'd ask the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My name is Ms Padiachey and I represent the applicant. The applicant will only be giving evidence today.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Padiachey.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I'm Ms Judy Reddy, appearing on behalf of the victims, namely Bongani Clephas Cele and Peaceland Lubanyana, who both will be testifying this evening.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Reddy. Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. I am Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
THANDANKOSI PETROS SOSIBO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Padiachey?
EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Thanks Mr Chairperson.
Mr Sosibo, do you confirm having made an application for amnesty on the 1st of May 1996?
MR SOSIBO: That is so.
MS PADIACHEY: And do you also confirm having made an affidavit which is on page 4 and 5 of the bundle?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, I show you this application together with your affidavit, do you confirm the contents of it?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I do.
MS PADIACHEY: And do you confirm that the information that you have made in this affidavit is true and correct?
MR SOSIBO: Yes.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, could you perhaps inform the Committee whether you've made this application yourself or did someone help you?
MR SOSIBO: I was by myself.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Sosibo. Mr Sosibo, it is alleged and it is proved that you are presently out of prison on a charge of murder and that you were sentenced to 15 years imprisonment on the 11th of November 1987, is that correct?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct.
MS PADIACHEY: And how long thereafter have you come out of prison?
MR SOSIBO: I was released in 1998.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, in this charge that you were convicted of - and you have subsequent to this conviction entered an application for amnesty, could you perhaps inform the Committee why you have done this?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I can explain. The reason for the death of Mr Armstrong Cele was that there were many instances where he was discovered to be a member of the IFP. He was killed for the reason that he was one of the people who had harassed the community. He was implicated in the death of Nkosinathi Cele and he was also implicated in the damaging of my house, the intention of which was to kill me. For that reason I was convinced that he was an IFP member.
When Nkosinathi Cele was killed I was not really certain, I do not have enough proof of whether he was an IFP member or whether he worked for the police. I say this because he was present when Themba Cele was shot by the police.
And when he was implicated with Wellington Sabelo, who was a member of the KwaZulu legislature, I did not see him at my home but I saw him passing in a vehicle in which he was with Mr Wellington Sabelo and they were pointing at my home. I then realised that he was an IFP member. He also came to home leaving a message that he wanted to kill me after the death of Nkosinathi Cele.
CHAIRPERSON: At that time what was your political affiliation?
MR SOSIBO: I was a member of the UDF.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, at this stage when you were with the UDF, what was your position?
MR SOSIBO: I was the commander of the UDF in M-Section in Umlazi.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you. And are you presently affiliated to which organisation?
MR SOSIBO: After my release from prison I contacted ANC members and informed them that I was going to abstain from politics for a while.
MS PADIACHEY: Now Mr Sosibo, you've brought this application for amnesty despite having been convicted for a charge of murder, can you perhaps inform the Committee why now you want to inform the Truth and Reconciliation Commission what the truth is about this incident that occurred.
MR SOSIBO: Briefly, the reason for appearing here is that although I have served my sentence, but I would be happy and I would appreciate to meet the family of Armstrong Cele, to apologise to them and explain the reason for his death, so that they also know the reasons behind his death because I am sure they never received full information as to the motive for killing him. I wanted to appear here so that I could explain the reasons for his death as well as apologise to them.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, at the time of this murder of Mr Cele, what was your instructions or what was your motive related to the murder?
MR SOSIBO: Our motive was that at that time it was clear that if we did not kill him we were going to lose many more UDF members in the area, because at the time the UDF was in the minority and IFP was the dominant party.
MS PADIACHEY: And Mr Sosibo, at this time would you say that your actions were unlawful, taking into account the unrest and the political situation of the country?
MR SOSIBO: Please repeat that question.
CHAIRPERSON: I think, Ms Padiachey, he's admitted to the killing, we can accept that it's unlawful. Whether he thinks it was justified in the circumstances, that's another thing but we can accept that it was unlawful. After all, he was convicted.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Sosibo, you have alleged that you have served a sentence for this murder and that you've now brought this application to inform the family the truth regarding the murder of Mr Cele, and you have informed us that he had to have been killed because you were losing UDF members, is that correct?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct.
MS PADIACHEY: Would it also be correct to say that you sympathise with the family of the deceased and that you are remorseful for your actions?
MR SOSIBO: I am hurting very much for that offence because we were are in a different situation in the new South Africa today. I apologise deeply to the Cele family for what happened.
MS PADIACHEY: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if we could just briefly get a description of the actual killing, Ms Padiachey.
What role did you play in the actual killing of Mr Cele, Mr Sosibo?
MR SOSIBO: The role that I played was to douse him with petrol in his vehicle. I also put a tyre around his neck.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this - were you acting alone or was there a huge crowd there or was it you and a couple of others?
MR SOSIBO: I would say at the time I was not alone, I was in the company of other people. I would say there were maybe eight but there were other members of the community who did not participate in the actual killing.
CHAIRPERSON: And was the killing the result of a pre-planned ambush, or did it just happen by chance because you came across Mr Cele? What was the situation there?
MR SOSIBO: It was planned.
CHAIRPERSON: And we believe from the papers as well and from Ms Reddy saying that she also appears for another victim besides the Cele family, that somebody else was injured, what do you say about that?
MR SOSIBO: I can say I do have knowledge to the effect that somebody else was injured at that time but that person was not injured by myself. That is why I did not put in, or submit an application.
CHAIRPERSON: That was Mr Lubanyana.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, that was Mr Lubanyana.
CHAIRPERSON: Now from the papers it would appear that the vehicle in which Mr Cele was, was a truck carrying liquor, is that right?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct. He used to sell alcohol, liquor in the township and he would deliver these at different taverns. That was what we knew him to be doing, but after a while we discovered that he was involved in other covert operations in collusion with the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you poured petrol over this truck and that ultimately resulted in the truck being burnt out and ...
MR SOSIBO: I did douse Mr Cele with petrol after Mr Lubanyana was asked to leave the vehicle. because it was not our intention to injure or harm Mr Lubanyana, and he was innocent.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Yes, Mr Chairperson.
Which political organisation did you belong to in 1986?
MR SOSIBO: The UDF.
MS REDDY: Do you carry a membership card to support this submission of yours?
MR SOSIBO: I did have it at that time.
MS REDDY: Where is it now?
MR SOSIBO: Because of the situation at the time my home was damaged. I think it was burnt along with my home.
MR MALAN: May I just find out.
Which organisation were you a member of, which part of the UDF?
MR SOSIBO: I was in the Youth League.
MR MALAN: There was no Youth League in 1986, ANC was still banned, it was overseas. The UDF operated, ANC didn't operate. The UDF didn't have a Youth League, it some 6-or-800-or-1000 organisations affiliated to it. Were you a member of SOYCO or a member of COSAS or a member of the Council of Churches?
CHAIRPERSON: The membership of UDF was not individuals but rather organisations, it was an umbrella movement for a number of organisations and the individuals who belonged to it were members of the various organisation. So the UDF didn't issue membership to individuals but to organisations.
MR SOSIBO: I was in UDF under Miyole and we worked closely with the Council of Churches.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) ... who worked with you?
MR SOSIBO: It was Miyole.
ADV SANDI: What is the name in full? Isn't that an abbreviation of some name?
MR SOSIBO: No, I did not know the full name.
ADV SANDI: Does it stand for anything?
MR MALAN: You were never a member of COSAS?
MR SOSIBO: I would not know.
MR MALAN: You were never a member of COSAS?
MR SOSIBO: No.
MR MALAN: And you say you're not a member of the African National Congress and you're not active.
MR SOSIBO: That's correct.
MR MALAN: May I just point you to - sorry for the interruption, Ms Reddy.
May I point to page 6 of the bundle, there seems to be an unsigned statement by Djokweni, saying that you were a member of COSAS in 1986, continuing to say in the next paragraph that since your release from prison you committed to the African National Congress. So that's wrong?
MR SOSIBO: To respond to that, it could be that the person who made the statement was senior to me with regards to positions, therefore he might have known better than I do. It could be that the organisation was under COSAS, but what I know is that I was a member of this Miyole organisation which operated in the Umlazi district.
MR MALAN: Do you know Djokweni?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I know Mrs Djokweni.
MR MALAN: Did you ask him to confirm your membership? Do you know how this letter got to us?
MR SOSIBO: She's a person I worked with closely with regard to the political situation at Umlazi. On my return from prison I contacted her again. We had political discussions and we made some decisions.
MR MALAN: And you did say that after your release you told the ANC you would not be participating in politics. That was your evidence-in-chief.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I did explain to some members of the ANC. There are some people who still regard me as a member of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: So from your answers it would seem that this letter on page 6 is totally incorrect.
MR SOSIBO: It could be true because the author of this statement could have been writing based on her knowledge because she was more senior in the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but we don't know what was in her mind, but from what you've told us, first of all you said you weren't a member of COSAS and then you said that when you got out of prison you pointedly said that you're not going to be active with the ANC. Now this letter says the opposite, so it must be wrong. Whatever her intentions were when she wrote it, it's not correct.
MR SOSIBO: That is why I'm explaining that this person was senior to me with regards to my COSAS membership. I was a member of the UDF. She had better knowledge of the umbrella body under which Miyole operated. As a senior person she must have had that knowledge that the organisation was under COSAS.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
So besides this documentary affidavit that you submitted together with the amnesty bundle, there is no other written proof that you belonged to any political organisation. Would that be correct?
MR SOSIBO: I think that is so.
MS REDDY: So you would agree with me if I said we, the Members sitting on this Committee, would find it very difficult to believe you. And I say this because at your trial you said you were nowhere on the scene, and you went further to make a mockery of the justice system by bringing in an alibi to confirm same. So we just could be in the same kind of position what we are faced here with today.
MR SOSIBO: No, I would dispute that. The reason why I denied being present at the scene in court was because there was a lot of discrimination in court at the time. Therefore, I was not inclined to admit that I was present at the scene. It was not my intention that I die from being sentenced to death. I had preferred to die maybe from gunshot wounds rather than to be sentenced to death.
MS REDDY: But you would agree with me if I said this affidavit that you submitted is not correct because it's in ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you referring to page 6?
MS REDDY: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That's not an affidavit, it's just a statement.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, if you look on page 7, it is signed by the deponent.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but not before a Commissioner of Oaths.
MS REDDY: That's appreciated, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so it's just a statement, not an affidavit, it's not a sworn statement.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: And it's not from him, it's from Mrs ...(intervention)
MS REDDY: Yes, I do understand that, Commissioner.
How long were you a member of that group that you said you belonged to, prior to the killing in question?
MR SOSIBO: I think I joined the UDF in 1985. Mr Themba Cele was killed in 1986.
MS REDDY: I take you to page 4 of our bundle, para 3, the line where it says, and I quote
"We thought he was IFP or walked with the apartheid regime, police."
You say you thought, what intelligence investigation did you do to find out whether your opinion was correct?
MR SOSIBO: There are no tangible steps that we took or maybe some proof or recorded proof that he was a member of the IFP, but it was his actions that convinced me that he was an IFP member.
MS REDDY: What actions, Mr Sosibo?
MR SOSIBO: What I can state clearly was that when comrade Nkosinathi Cele was killed, he was implicated to an extent that when the comrade was lying dead he kicked the body. I also saw him on another occasion with Mr Wellington Sabelo who was a member of the KwaZulu legislature and they were pointing towards my home.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it not alleged that Nkosinathi Cele had tried to rob Mr Cele or something of that nature?
MR SOSIBO: That was a statement made by the police and it was a way for them to protect themselves after they had shot Nkosinathi Cele.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so are you saying that there wasn't any robbery, it's just a false allegation?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I regard it as untrue that Nkosinathi Cele had attempted to rob Mr Cele, because they knew one another, because they shared the same surname.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you see what I'm trying to get at is if Nkosinathi Cele - and I'm not saying he did, I don't know anything about it, but if Nkosinathi tried to rob Mr Cele and Mr Cele in that incident shot and killed him, or he was shot and killed during the attempted robbery, then that wouldn't necessarily mean that Mr Cele, your ultimate victim, was IFP, it was just a person involved in a robbery incident. And the fact that they're both Celes doesn't mean that they're not going to rob each other, because we know that one Cele killed another Cele. So if one can kill one, then another one can rob one, surely.
MR SOSIBO: Yes. As I have just explained, that could have been just a way of the police protecting themselves after they had shot Nkosinathi. Nkosinathi was a UDF member and there was no instruction or policy to the effect that UDF members should commit robberies. But when Mr Cele kicked Nkosinathi's body he did give us an impression that he might have been working with the IFP or the police.
We were not yet sure to which side he belonged, but after that incident, Mr Themba Cele continued with his actions. It became clear that he was a member of the IFP when he came to my home, that the one person that was still outstanding to be killed was me and after my death he would have fulfilled his ambition. When he came to my home he was in the company of other IFP members.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Did you know a Mr Nkosinathi Cele(?)
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I knew him very well.
MS REDDY: Did you share a close relationship?
MR SOSIBO: He was a comrade but he resided in a different section. But we did have contact because of the position that he held in the UDF.
MS REDDY: If I were to call him your close friend, would that be correct?
MR SOSIBO: I would not dispute it because if you are referring to a friend, yes that is somebody who is also your comrade because a comrade is somebody who is close to you, you work with closely.
MS REDDY: How long did you know him?
MR SOSIBO: If I'm not mistaken I had known him for about five to six years.
MS REDDY: You say Mr Cele, the deceased, came to your house several time when you were in Johannesburg, is that correct?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct.
MS REDDY: Okay. I put it to that Bongani Cele who is the brother of the deceased and the victim, Lubanyana, will state to this Committee that the deceased never came to your house, in fact the deceased didn't know you. What is your response thereto?
MR SOSIBO: If they were to say that I am not going to deny or agree with them because then they are trying to inform us that they were always with him, present wherever he went.
MS REDDY: You speak about individuals coming to your house and damaging your house, in your affidavit, page 4, para 3, line 5. Can you tell us the relevance as to that statement?
CHAIRPERSON: That statement says Mr Sosibo
"My home was then attacked several times and at one stage it was attacked in my presence."
MR SOSIBO: Please repeat that.
MR MALAN: I think the question is really, you talk about the attacks on your home but you're not saying in your statement that Mr Cele was involved in these attacks. So the question is, why do you tell us about the attacks?
MR SOSIBO: I mentioned to the person who was taking the statement, that the reason for my home to be damaged and burnt and shot at was because I saw Mr Themba Cele pointing at my home as he passed in a vehicle, but at that time I did not connect that with anything. But after a few minutes that they had passed my house, people came to attack my home. That is why I say Mr Themba Cele played a role or was implicated in the damaging that was done to my home.
MR MALAN: Sorry, I'm not sure that I understand you. You didn't say that Cele passed your home, you say he came to your home while you were in Johannesburg. Are you now saying he also came to your home when you were there, or passed your home when you were present at home? Did you see Mr Cele at your home?
MR SOSIBO: I did see him passing, he was in a vehicle. When my home was attacked I did not see him, but when I saw a car passing and there were IFP people inside the vehicle, he was with them and after a short while IFP supporters came and destroyed my home.
MR MALAN: Are you saying Mr Cele was in this car?
MR SOSIBO: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Did you see him?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I did.
MR MALAN: Where was he sitting?
MR SOSIBO: He was seated at the back.
MR MALAN: Did they just drive past or did he stop or how did you manage to see him? If a car drives by, that you recognise him at the back?
MR SOSIBO: From where I was you can see a vehicle approaching and at the time, because the situation was bad, we were alert of vehicles that approached or that came past. And when it passed it was watched closely because it approached driving very slowly passing my home. And as I stood there I was standing next to a parked vehicle and as I looked at this vehicle, I identified Mr Themba Cele and Mr Wellington Sabelo. They were in the company of other people whom I did not know.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Are you telling me that pointing to your house makes the deceased responsible for the attack?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, that is what occurred to me, it was him and the people he was with.
MS REDDY: But besides that you don't have any direct proof thereto?
CHAIRPERSON: He did say that - just tell me if I'm correct, Mr Sosibo, that you said that Mr Cele actually came to your house one day with some other people and threatened that he was going to kill you.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, that is what I'm trying to explain to Ms Reddy. That after he had pointed at my home and also for the reason that he had come to my home and said this to my mother and he would threaten her, him together with the people he was with, that they were going to kill me wherever they found me.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you say that threat was made to your mother?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, they would threaten my mother because she was the person who was almost always at home.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Petros, you're application for amnesty is not properly filled out, a lot of questions have been left unanswered. Can you give us a reason for that?
MR MALAN: What you specifically referring to? Won't you be specific.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, it's his application for amnesty, Form 1. If you look into the bundle, it's page 1.
CHAIRPERSON: For instance like names of victims?
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, it's a lot of substantial answers that goes to the heart(?) of this application. Like, was he a member of any organisation and so forth.
CHAIRPERSON: Basically what Ms Reddy's asking you, if you take a look at your application, Mr Sosibo, pages 1, 2 and 3, really all that is said in that particular application form is your name and address etc, that you belonged to the UDF, that you murdered
"Murder a black man. Killed someone. Also one got a serious injury and also a car was burnt down, private car."
... and that's all that is said, nothing else. There's no mention about Mr Cele and Mr Lubanyana or IFP or anything like that. And Ms Reddy's asking you, when you filled in this application form, why didn't you answer all the answers, some of which are very easy, like "What's the name of the victim?" You knew it was Mr Cele, why didn't you put it in. That sort of thing. That's the question asked by Ms Reddy.
MR SOSIBO: The reason for that was that I was expecting to be summoned before the Commission and answer questions myself as well as for the family of Mr Cele to be present, that they would hear of these answers from me.
CHAIRPERSON: So sorry, while we're here, I just want to get this clear. What are you applying for amnesty for, in respect of what are you applying? You've told us you're applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Cele, what about the injured person, Mr Lubanyana?
MR SOSIBO: I would say I would not be able to apply with regards to Mr Lubanyana, because I am only recounting on what I did, I cannot recount on what other people did.
CHAIRPERSON: But you were charged in the court of the attempted murder of Nkosinathi Peaceland Lubanyana, you were charged with that. Is that correct? I see here, page 9.
MR SOSIBO: What I was informed of in court was that I was being charged with the murder of Mr Themba Cele. I was not charged with attempting to murder Mr Lubanyana because if I remember correctly, Mr Lubanyana went to the police station in ChiChi in 1986, to an identity parade and he did not identify me.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm just reading from the judgment, Mr Sosibo. Let me tell you what is here.
MR SOSIBO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You were accused number three at the trial, according to page 8. If you take a look, charge one is the murder of Mr Cele, charge two is the attempted murder of Lubanyana. Now turn to page 22, it says
"Accused number three was GUILTY on count one (that is the murder of Mr Cele) and we find accused numbers 3, 4, 5 and 6 NOT GUILTY on count 2."
So you were charged with the attempted murder but found not guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Lubanyana. Is that correct? So you were only convicted of the murder of Mr Cele.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I was found guilty for murdering Mr Cele. I was not found guilty for the attempted murder on Mr Lubanyana. And the person in whose incident I played a role, was Mr Cele.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
One of the questions that was left unanswered in your application form is "Did you achieve your political objective?" Could you possibly answer that now?
MR SOSIBO: With regards to that I would say the death of Mr Cele would lead to a decrease of our members being killed, people such as myself as well, because had he not been killed I or other comrades would have died or would have been killed.
MS REDDY: But wasn't there quite a few members that belonged to the alleged IFP as you put it, to which the deceased also belonged to? And wouldn't it be correct if I said they could have come after you if it was not Mr Cele?
MR SOSIBO: On considering the situation that prevailed in our area our area was engulfed in violence, there may have been other IFP people living in the area, but this they did not publicise. Normally in N-Section you would not go public about your political status because it was dominated by the IFP.
It is possible that some members may have carried out their operations in other sections except to where they resided. That is why I think Mr Themba Cele was able to come to our own section and do and carry out whatever activities on behalf of the IFP.
MS REDDY: So are you telling me that Mr Cele was the only IFP member in your section?
MR SOSIBO: No, Mr Cele did not reside in our section, he came from another section which is not close to ours. I am trying to explain that he did this in public to us as UDF members. When he went to my home to inform them that he was going to kill me, he was doing that in public.
MR MALAN: Can you tell us why he said he would be killing you? He wasn't living in your area, why would he come several times telling mother he's going to kill you? Did he ever give a reason?
MR SOSIBO: At that time I was still young. The IFP would come to people's home and remove males from that home. Mr Cele would come to my home and inform my mother that "If your son continues to be a UDF member, we are going to kill him." It became clear to me that the reason why I was going to be killed was because of my membership to the UDF.
MR MALAN: But he didn't reside in your area, he didn't have any business there, he didn't live even close to you, but he takes the pains of getting there a number of occasions while you're in Johannesburg, simply to tell your mother that if he finds out that you're a UDF, he will kill you. Is that what you're saying?
MR SOSIBO: That is what I'm explaining.
MR MALAN: Why would he seek you out in a township where he has no interest, where he doesn't live?
MR SOSIBO: As I explained before, I am from N-Section at Umlazi but we were not attacked by people from that section, it would be people from other sections, from Section 17 which are not close to my section. Those are the people who would come to our own section to attack us and those were IFP members.
MR MALAN: Was N-Section UDF dominated?
MR SOSIBO: No, it was not dominated by the UDF, it was dominated by the IFP who would come to attack the comrades at N-Section.
MR MALAN: I thought you said that the IFP in N-Section wouldn't attack comrades in N-Section, only IFP comes from other sections to attack UDF in N-Section.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, that is what I said.
MR MALAN: And the information is that Cele came all by himself on several occasions, spoke to your mother and said that he was going to kill you if he finds out that you're UDF.
MR SOSIBO: He was not alone, he would be in the company of some people. Because as I also explained about the vehicle that he was in, he was also in the company of some people. So when they came to my home, he would not be alone. The reason why he was known or became known to my mother, was because he used to sell liquor and therefore it was easy for him to be identified.
MR MALAN: Was he selling liquor to your mother?
MR SOSIBO: No, he did not do so.
MR MALAN: To you?
MR SOSIBO: No, I do not drink alcohol.
MR MALAN: Now to who did he sell liquor? I mean what's the relevance of him selling liquor?
MR SOSIBO: He would be selling to the community in my section as well as in a section next to ours.
ADV SANDI: So how did he sell this liquor, would he go out to deliver the liquor to these people or would the prospective buyers come to his house to buy?
CHAIRPERSON: Or would he just drive around the streets in his lorry full of liquor and stop and sell it from his truck?
MR SOSIBO: He would sometimes alight from his vehicle when he went on his deliveries. In that way it was easy for people to get to know him.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Mr Sosibo, I still didn't get a positive response to the question I asked. You just said to this Committee now that IFP members from other sections, belonging to the Umlazi district, would come to your district and attack you and my question in substance was, if it was not Mr Cele because he was now dead and you killed him because he was attacking your people in your section, it would have been another IFP member. So the problem was not cured, if it was not Mr Cele, it will be another IFP member from another district or wherever. That was the question that I needed you to respond to.
MR SOSIBO: What I would like to explain before the Committee is that when Mr Cele was identified as one of the IFP people, we regarded as one of the people who attacked us. I am not saying were he not absent or were he absent we would not have been attacked. I am saying that if such people had attacked us or had done what he did, the same decision could have been taken against them.
That is after he was implicated in the death of Nkosinathi Cele, as well him being implicated in the attack on my home after he had come there several times to intimidate them, telling them that I am going to be killed. That necessitated that I think about what steps should be taken against Mr Cele.
MS REDDY: Okay, I'm going to move on but I'm not really ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Just before you move on, just a last question.
Why did you not tell us in your statement that Mr Cele said to your mother that he was going to kill you? You simply said that he enquired about you in your absence.
MR SOSIBO: The reason I didn't mention that I thought that if I had said he came to my house and since he was a member of IFP and I wasn't one, I thought the Committee was going to be interested in knowing why I took the actions that I took, like what I've said today. I thought I was going to be asked about that.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MR MALAN: That doesn't really satisfy me, but just let me get then to another question on the same score. In that same paragraph you never tell us that he was IFP, you said
"I thought he was IFP or if not IFP, worked with the police."
You weren't even sure, according to your affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: That's the very first line of paragraph 3 of that statement.
MR SOSIBO: I was certain about his political affiliation after he had told my mother that he was going to kill me and also after he went past my home. But I thought that I was going to explain everything before this Committee like I'm explaining today.
MS REDDY: Like I was saying, I'm actually going to move on but I was not really satisfied with the response to my earlier question, and let me just continue. The deceased was robbed two times prior to his killing, are you aware of that?
MR SOSIBO: I didn't quite follow your questions, you said ...
CHAIRPERSON: The question was that the deceased, Mr Cele, was robbed twice before he was killed, do you know anything about that.
MR SOSIBO: I don't know anything about that because he was not my neighbour, therefore I wouldn't know what happened to his bottle store.
MS REDDY: I refer you to page 5 ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Sorry, did you say you wouldn't know what happened to his bottle store? Which bottle store?
MR SOSIBO: I know that he was selling liquor but that he had a bottle store I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what Ms Reddy put to you is that Mr Cele was robbed twice before he was killed, do you know anything about it? Nothing about a bottle store or whatever. I mean if I'm a bottle store owner and I get robbed, it doesn't mean I'm getting robbed of liquor, somebody can rob me of my watch or my money.
MR SOSIBO: As I've already explained, I said I don't know if he was robbed or shoes or necklaces or a watch, I am not close and I was never close to him, therefore I don't know anything about it.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
I refer you to page 5, first paragraph where you say -
"I feel he was just betrayed as he was a leader in the ANC comrades."
What do you mean when you say "betrayed"?
CHAIRPERSON: With this you're talking about Nkosinathi here? Is that right? ... talking about Nkosinathi. I know it's a bit confusing because they both had the surname Cele, but he's saying
"I feel he was betrayed as he was a leader of the ANC in M-Section"
... he's talking about Nkosinathi Cele who he says the deceased, Mr Cele, kicked the body after he had been killed. So he's not talking about the deceased here, he's talking about his friend.
MS REDDY: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I do understand that, but I'm just a bit concerned when he says the word "betrayed". I'm talking about Mr Nkosinathi Cele, when he says he was betrayed. I was just want to know if the applicant can just tell us a little bit of what he means by betrayed because it's his statement that he made in his affidavit.
MR SOSIBO: When Nkosinathi Cele was shot in a school ground, Mr Cele the deceased, was there with the police and after he had been shot dead, Mr Themba Cele went to his body while his body was lying there and he kicked it and he was there with the police.
CHAIRPERSON: But what Ms Reddy's getting at is, if you take a look at page 5 Mr Sosibo, right on the top line you use the word "betrayed", now she wants to know why did you use that word "betrayed" because betrayed is normally a word used when two people who are loyal to each other and the one person then acts against his so-called comrade, that is a betrayal. When you get two enemies doing bad things to each other it's not really a betrayal. That's all she's asking. Did you use that word "betrayed", and if you did, why?
MR SOSIBO: We usually use the name betrayal when we say someone had sold someone out or to other people, I used the word betrayal because I was referring to Themba Cele, that he had sold him to the police, not that he had shot at him but the police had shot at him because Themba had already sold him to the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: You also say in line 2 that
"The attack on Mr Cele was our own initiatives"
Could you just explain to me what initiatives you're referring us to.
MR SOSIBO: Yes. We initiated this on our own as members of the UDF, because IFP were not going to tell us to go and attack him. We, members of the UDF, we decided that we should kill him after what he did to us.
MS REDDY: Who instructed you?
CHAIRPERSON: He said it was his own "We decided", he hasn't said - ask him if anyone instructed first.
MS REDDY: He says he - Mr Chairperson, he said "we", so I'm just asking whether it was ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Were you instructed at all by anyone? How did you get to the decision?
MR SOSIBO: I was the one who came with the suggestion after I realised Themba Cele's action. And as a commander at the time, I saw it a reason I should discuss this matter with other members of the UDF. We held a meeting, I called various members of UDF and we discussed about this. After the discussion we called a general meeting when supporters also came, UDF supporters, and they also had knowledge about Themba Cele's action after they had seen and some of them after they had heard about his actions. The community or supporters of UDF saw it that he wasn't a peaceful person because he was hunting UDF members, that's why we came to that decision.
MS REDDY: I understand when you said you actually didn't confess at your trial that you were responsible for the death of the deceased together with other members of your comrades, can you just tell me why you went further to bring an alibi to confirm your lie as such?
CHAIRPERSON: This is fairly - I mean if you go to court and you say "I deny I did it", the alibi is probably the most common of all the defences. If you say "I wasn't there", then obviously the State's going to ask "Well where were you?" - "Well I was at my granny's house watching TV" or whatever it is. I mean that's not - he brought up his alibi obviously to substantiate his lie that he wasn't there.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I actually appreciate that, but I just wanted to show the extent of his disrespect for the justice system and I'm going to go further in my question and you'd actually find out why I'm actually ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
MR SOSIBO: If I can comment on that statement. As the Judge has just explained this to you, one can commit a crime now and if I'm arrested or if that person is arrested, that person can - if that person denies that, that person can "I was with my friends" and I can also collaborate with my friends and ask them to agree with me and some of my friends can agree to do that on my behalf.
MR MALAN: And you can collaborate with your friend to confirm that you're now a member of the ANC, active, committed and that you're a member of COSAS.
MR SOSIBO: That will depend on the attorneys of the organisation. If the attorney can be able to lie before the court, they can do that, but what I know is that attorneys don't do that. And usually you use attorneys, organisational attorneys.
MR MALAN: Okay, no, I asked for that. I didn't really want an answer.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: Thank you.
Do you agree that only a short space of time elapsed from the time Nkosinathi was fatally wounded by the police in the line of duty, and the time that Themba Cele was actually killed?
CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying the space of time between the death?
MS REDDY: Ja, I just want him to actually ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What was the space of time, do you know Mr Sosibo? From the time that Nkosinathi was killed and the time that Mr Cele was killed, what was the difference in time?
MR SOSIBO: I wouldn't be able to remember with certainty but what I can recall is that Themba Cele was killed on the 7th of August 1986, but I have a problem remembering when Nkosinathi Cele was killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was it the day before, was it on the same day, was it a month before, was it two years before? If you could just give us some indication of the approximate time. What would you estimate, how long after Nkosinathi died did Themba Cele die?
MR SOSIBO: I will have a problem in estimating the time because I don't remember really. This happened in the '80s and now it's the '90s, it's a long time, I don't remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: I appreciate what you're actually telling me, but I'm just going to assist you on that aspect by telling you it was on the 20th of June 1986 when your friend, Nkosinathi was actually killed and I would also submit that it was more-or-less a short space from the time he was killed and Mr Cele was actually killed. Why I'm actually telling you this is because it would seem very probable that the motive of killing the deceased was purely to avenge the death of one of your comrades, namely Nkosinathi Cele.
And further I'd submit that like you said in your evidence, that you shared a very close relationship with the deceased, that is Nkosinathi Cele, and it was a long time relationship, more-or-less five years if I'm correct, it's being very probable that that was a motive for the killing of the deceased, that is Mr Themba Cele, and not one of a political background.
MR SOSIBO: I would like to tell you that quite a number of comrades died and they were killed by members of IFP. I'm not going to say the killing of Mr Themba Cele was caused by the killing of Nkosinathi Cele. I wouldn't say that we were retaliating or it was a revenge, but the main reason was that he was found before or he was seen as someone who was supporting IFP ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think you've told us. What you're doing is you're not agreeing with what's been put to you by Ms Reddy and you stand by your previous statement that he was perceived as IFP. We don't have to hear it all over again.
MR MALAN: I just want to ask you a question. You say at the bottom of page 4 of the bundle in that statement, that you don't believe the story of the alleged robbery. Now it has been put to you that there was a robbery and the police - well that at least is my deduction, that the police shot Nkosinathi after a robbery or attempted robbery on Themba Cele. Why don't you believe it?
MR SOSIBO: The reason I do not believe this is because it was not our policy as members of the UDF to rob people and also most comrades of the UDF were disciplined.
MR MALAN: Surely it's not the policy of any church to commit a crime but many of their members commit crimes, how can you say that Nkosinathi would not have robbed him? I don't want to know what the UDF policy is, why would Nkosinathi not have robbed him?
MR SOSIBO: As I have already explained that since it was not the policy of the UDF. Nkosinathi was the leader of the UDF at the time and I am certain that he cannot rob someone. That is why I'm certain that he didn't do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: Thank you, Mr Applicant for your evidence. No further questions, Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, any questions you'd like to ask?
MS THABETHE: I was just checking my notes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You haven't had time to do it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: I think most of the things have been covered, that's why I'm sort of checking.
I want to ask you about the meeting. You had indicated in your evidence that you called a meeting. Besides what you have given us, that Mr Cele the deceased, used to come to your place and demand that if you don't stop being a member of UDF you are going to die, what other reasons were put forward in the meeting that led to a decision that he should be killed? If there were any other reasons.
MR SOSIBO: There are not any other reasons except for those that I have already mentioned here.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Padiachey, do you have any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Mr Chairperson, just a few questions to clarify certain issues.
Mr Sosibo, you indicated that you have been a UDF member and that you've joined somewhere around 1986, that is correct is it?
MR SOSIBO: I joined it in 1985.
MS PADIACHEY: And at this time of you joining the UDF, would you say that you were active in the struggle?
MR SOSIBO: Yes.
MS PADIACHEY: You've also indicated Mr Sosibo, that the UDF was the minority in the Umlazi township and that the IFP were the majority.
MR SOSIBO: Yes, it is true.
MS PADIACHEY: Would it then be correct to say that you together with other UDF members, were fearing the IFP members?
MR SOSIBO: I wouldn't say that we feared it and also I wouldn't say that we didn't fear it, what I can say is that IFP was the majority and also the atrocities they committed on us were more.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Sosibo, your motive for killing Mr Themba Cele, was that because of the incident of him having killed Nkosinathi Cele, or was it the incident that related to he having made threats on your life?
MR SOSIBO: It is not because he had threatened to kill me, but it was because of quite a number of reasons, the murder of Nkosinathi Cele and him coming to my home and threatening that he was going to kill me and also he came with IFP members.
MS PADIACHEY: So would you say that you were scared and that you feared him?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I was scared of him, I thought that he was going to send IFP members to kill me as it had happened when they tried even though they were unsuccessful.
MS PADIACHEY: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan, any questions?
MR MALAN: You refer to your absence when you were in Johannesburg, when were you in Johannesburg and what for, what reason?
MR SOSIBO: ...(no English interpretation)
MR MALAN: Sorry, we're not getting any interpretation.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if we can just get the interpretation please.
INTERPRETER: I went to Johannesburg ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on Mr Sosibo.
MR SOSIBO: ... and I came back to Durban because it was about time coming home.
MR MALAN: Please listen to my question. When did you go to Johannesburg, what date, what month, for how long and when did you come back?
MR SOSIBO: I went in 1985 and I came back in 1986. I used to go to Johannesburg and come back - I usually went to Johannesburg and came back, but I never stayed there for quite a long time but when I came back for good it was in 1986.
ADV SANDI: Just on this. Sorry, Mr Malan. Sorry, just on this, maybe you'll be asking him a question on something else.
Did you have any special reason for going to Johannesburg?
MR SOSIBO: I was visiting my relative.
MR MALAN: So you went to Johannesburg in '95, you came back in '86. And it was while you were in Johannesburg that he enquired about you at your home with your mother?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, during that time.
MR MALAN: And it was then that he threatened that he would be killing you if he found you to be a UDF member.
MR SOSIBO: Yes.
MR MALAN: So since 1986 you've been back, you were back at Umlazi township?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I came back.
MR MALAN: And the incident of the killing of Themba Cele was only in November 1987, is that correct?
MR SOSIBO: I don't quite understand when you're referring to his death in 1987.
MS THABETHE: August 1986.
CHAIRPERSON: It was the 7th of August 1986, according to the indictment.
MR MALAN: Sorry, I looked at your application where you gave a different here, the date of the incident. Then my apologies, August '96.
CHAIRPERSON: '86.
MR MALAN: August '86. When did you return from Johannesburg, can you remember the month?
MR SOSIBO: It is difficult for me to remember which month, but I do remember the year.
MR MALAN: Were you coming back to your home during '85 and '86 from Johannesburg with intervals or did you permanently stay up in Johannesburg?
MR SOSIBO: As I've already mentioned that I will go to Johannesburg and come back to Durban frequently.
MR MALAN: Then if you can just look at page 3, if you can just explain to me. The top of page 3 of the bundle you are asked whether you have benefited financially or otherwise and this is filled in
"Yes, I have benefit. (a) Financial"
CHAIRPERSON: And then "If so, give details"
"I not got the money"
MR MALAN: It looks here as if you're telling us you were to be paid for the job but you were not eventually paid. What did you mean with this?
MR SOSIBO: This is a shock to me, I don't have any idea that I was going to be paid. I think this is an old statement.
MR MALAN: Yes, it is an old statement, it dates the 1st of May 1996, and it was put to you that it's your form, that you filled it out and you said you were giving us only limited information because you thought that you would be called to the Committee to give a full explanation and answer all the questions. So you had to give us very limited information in your understanding, which indeed you did, but you say
"Yes, I have benefit. (a) Financial"
And then (b), "Tell us about the benefits"
You say -
"I not got the money"
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sosibo, you wrote this, what Mr Malan wants to know is, what does it mean, what did you intend to convey by writing these words.
MR SOSIBO: If I can explain there, I think I was mistaken. People who were promised money in order to come and testify in court against me, they were given money by the police, not me.
MR MALAN: The question is, is this what you wanted to tell us when you wrote this? Did you want to convey to us when you were asked
"State the political objective sought to be achieved"
You said -
"United Democratic Front"
You're asked about the justification in 10(b), you say nothing. You're asked in (c) whether you received any benefit, you say -
"Yes, I have benefit. (a) Financial.
And then (d) you're asked -
"Explain the nature and extent of such benefits"
And then you continue to say -
"I not get the money"
Now, are you telling us that you wanted us to understand from this that people who testified in court against you were paid to testify against you?
MR SOSIBO: I am certain that I was never promised money and I was never given money. I think the reason I put that thing there is because I knew that people who came and testified in my case, they were promised money and they were given money.
CHAIRPERSON: Well it's not uncommon for witnesses to get witness fees and their expenses paid, it happens quite often without it being suspicious.
MR MALAN: Sorry, that wasn't a question. Then the last reference again to page 4 at the bottom, you make the statement
"I do not see a Cele robbing another Cele"
What do you mean with that? Simply because they had the same surname they wouldn't rob each other?
MR SOSIBO: Themba Cele would usually relate to Nkosinathi Cele's father, therefore they were not enemies with the family. I couldn't see Nkosinathi Cele robbing Themba Cele.
MR MALAN: Now if they were related and on good terms with the families, Themba being related to Nkosinathi's father, why can you see that Themba would have kicked the body of Nkosinathi? If they were on good terms, why would he have kicked the body of Nkosinathi Cele?
MR SOSIBO: We as comrades at the time we didn't see any need or we didn't even want to wait for Themba Cele to go to Nkosinathi Cele's father and apologise about what he did because he was working with the police and the police was always working together with the IFP. And when they killed Nkosinathi Cele, we realised that there was no relationship and what he did, kicking Nkosinathi Cele's body, was terrible in front of the people.
MR MALAN: Did you see it?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I did.
MR MALAN: Then it appears that they weren't on that good a relationship, why would - is it not possible that Nkosinathi could have robbed him? If he would have kicked him, why would Nkosinathi not have robbed him? It doesn't look to me as if they had that great a relationship.
MR SOSIBO: This shocked us as comrades knowing Nkosinathi Cele very well and also, the fact that he did so confirmed that he was an IFP member. And Nkosinathi never told us that they was friction between him and Themba.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sandi, any questions?
ADV SANDI: One question.
On the 20th of June 1986, that is the day Nkosinathi Cele was shot and killed by the police, do you know if there was a group that was involved with him in confronting Mr Themba Cele?
MR SOSIBO: You mean during his death?
ADV SANDI: Yes, on that day.
CHAIRPERSON: The 20th of June when Nkosinathi died, the question was, at that occasion was Mr Themba Cele confronted by a group of people?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I will say so. After Nkosinathi had been shot, Themba Cele was confronted by a certain group which was present there because that's when the group realised that Themba Cele was working together with the police.
ADV SANDI: Yes. As far as you know, did the same group throw stones at Mr Themba Cele when they were confronting him, did they throw stones at him?
MR SOSIBO: After they've spoken to Mr Themba Cele I went and tried to save the body, Nkosinathi Cele's body, therefore I didn't see what happened.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if the same group threw stones at the police when they came with Mr Themba Cele?
MR SOSIBO: Yes, I heard about it.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if anyone from that group was charged with robbery or attempting to rob Mr Themba Cele?
MR SOSIBO: No, I have no idea about that.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Just two very quick questions. When did you leave school, Mr Sosibo?
MR SOSIBO: If I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1984.
CHAIRPERSON: And after you left school did you study at any college or other institution?
MR SOSIBO: No, I didn't.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Any questions arising Ms Padiachey?
MS PADIACHEY: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: No, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sosibo, that concludes your evidence but it doesn't conclude this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll have to adjourn now, it's half past five, we've kept the people long over the time, for which we apologise and we thank them for staying on. What would be a convenient time to start tomorrow morning?
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, if I may submit, 9a.m.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you be here Ms Padiachey?
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Chairperson, I might have a problem, I do have a matter in court tomorrow.
CHAIRPERSON: We can't delay it, it's Friday, we've got to finish. There's no ways we can wait for the court in Durban to finish before we start, unless we finish now. We can't pick up a part-heard, I can assure you it's far more inconvenient for us to arrange a part-heard than for any court to arrange a part-heard, because we've got to get these Committees back together and we all go our different ways. So there's no ways we can wait for you to come back from court in Durban.
MS THABETHE: Unless we continue now, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We'll take a five minutes break and then if you can - I'm sorry about this, but there's no ways we can not continue tomorrow, it's impossible.
MS REDDY: If I may just submit, Mr Chairperson, can't you actually get some other associate from your place of employment to do the civil case tomorrow? Because it is late and everybody is quite tired and I respectfully submit that it's not asking too much at this stage, bearing in consideration the circumstances we're placed in. It's been a long day.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Chairperson, if I could just add, Ms Meersing from our offices is involved in a High Court matter and there's just me, the other person in the office and the Article Clerk is on course. That's the difficulty I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Because there's no ways we can - you see we've also only got a limited use of this hall tomorrow, we're told that in the afternoon the people need to sort it out for some function they're having here over the weekend, so we can't wait until the afternoon and we certainly can't pick up a part-heard, especially a part-heard of this nature when we're so close to finishing and the reason is because somebody wants to go to court the next day. It's not good enough.
MR MALAN: I think it just needs to be placed on record that this matter was originally set down for tomorrow and brought back to today so that we do not pick up the problem of a part-heard. When the instructions were initially given, it was on the basis of a Friday hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what we'll do now is we'll take a short five minute break and we'll either continue, unless Ms Padiachey can in that time make some arrangement about her tomorrow obligations. But one this is we must finish this, we would hate to pick up a part-heard in this matter.
MS REDDY: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I appreciate what you've actually said but I also made prior arrangements to be present in Durban at six but if we have to really go on, then I have to actually cancel.
CHAIRPERSON: Well let's have this short adjournment, see what can be arranged, either to continue or to continue tomorrow but if we do continue tomorrow, that it be at 9 o'clock.
MS REDDY: Most definitely, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and not to wait for an indefinite time but nine. We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: During the short adjournment very little was achieved actually because Ms Padiachey was not able to communicate with her office in Durban and therefore is not in a position to know what is happening with her matter in the - is it the Magistrate's Court, in the District Court. We've discussed the matter. This hearing of Mr Sosibo was set down initially for the 3rd of December, which is tomorrow and then it was only just through arrangements because we anticipated that we might only be able to have the use of this hall for a portion of the day tomorrow, not the whole day, that an arrangement was made earlier in the week to bring it forward until today because we were loathe to commence it tomorrow morning when it was set down, as that might have led to picking up a part-heard matter and that is why it was set down today rather than tomorrow. So it's absolutely imperative that we continue it tomorrow because if we do pick up a part-heard, as I alluded to earlier, it causes a huge inconvenience for the Commission, not only to get all the same lawyers back together on a particular date but also to get the Members of the Panel back together on a certain date because we don't sit together at every hearing, we split up and we keep changing Panels.
So Ms Padiachey, I'm afraid you'll have to make some arrangement about tomorrow to be here at 9 o'clock. We anticipate that this matter would be finished during the course of the morning even if it means delaying your case in Durban until after lunch.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just to indicate, I'm at the attorney in Pietermaritzburg, so I don't think that would be much inconvenience.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay, that might make it even easier to arrange, to continue your matter there in the court as soon as we've finished here. We can even start earlier than 9 o'clock if you wish, I don't know.
MS PADIACHEY: If I could please perhaps be given an indulgence to perhaps try and adjourn the matter that is set down for half past eight tomorrow morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS PADIACHEY: So I will try and be here by 9 o'clock.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Then we'll adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow and I'd just once again like to thank the people for working overtime tonight, I apologise for any inconvenience caused thereby.
So we'll then adjourn until nine tomorrow, when we'll continue.
So Mr Sosibo, if you can please be back here before 9 o'clock tomorrow. And Ms Reddy as well, with any witnesses, would you please be here by nine so we can start then and then release Ms Padiachey as soon as possible?
MS REDDY: As the Committee pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll then adjourn until 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
