CHAIRPERSON: The Committee comprising of myself and Judge de Jager and Madlala, - we are hearing the matter of the Madlala brothers, Jabulani Madlala and Falake Professor Madlala. Who's appearing for the applicant?
MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name's Dehal, Roshan Dehal. I represent both the applicants, Chair, that you have referred to. It seems to be agreed that we will begin with the applicant, Mr Tom Jabulani Madlala and then deal with the application of Falake Madlala.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll do that. Who is appearing for the objectors, if any?
MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my name is Raven Harkoo. I appear for the family of the victims. I have discussed this matter with them. I do not particularly have any objections to the application apart from disclosure and perhaps the opportunity of the applicant to apologise to them.
CHAIRPERSON: You will give us the names, you will write out the names of the people that you're appearing for and hand it in at some stage, so that it will form part of the record?
MR HARKOO: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON: How many victims are there that you are representing?
MR HARKOO: There are 13 victims in all of whom five are present today.
CHAIRPERSON: And you're appearing for the five?
MR HARKOO: For the five, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Yes, are we ready to proceed?
You may call your first - you may call the applicant.
MR DEHAL: Chairperson I think it's just for the Evidence Leader to place his details on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Does he have any details to place on record?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. Thank you.
MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you. Mr Chairperson, just before we begin, perhaps I should just clarify that in the course of the last two days, despite the difficulties of our time - sorry, despite the time constraints in consulting with Tom Madlala, we've endeavoured to formulate a statement which is at the moment ready and attempts are being made to have it faxed here to these offices. It has not arrived as yet, so as to expedite the matter, I have decided to proceed with the application as it is. As and when that statement arrives, I will use it. Forgive me that indulgence.
CHAIRPERSON: That's quite alright, you may do so.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: What about the second applicant? You have a statement of his, you're not calling any further statements from him?
MR DEHAL: Yes, I have a statement. His is on its way. It should be here in the next hour.
CHAIRPERSON: That's the second applicant?
MR DEHAL: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MR DEHAL: May the applicant be sworn in?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.
TOM JABULANI MADLALA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL: Mr Madlala, is it correct that you made an application for amnesty which is contained in this bundle, marked pages 8 to 22? Sorry, I'll show it to you. Here it is.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Have a look at these pages, pages 1 to 7. Is this application on pages 1 to 7 in your handwriting?
MR MADLALA: Yes, that's correct.
MR DEHAL: Do you confirm the correctness of the contents of this application?
MR MADLALA: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: Now on the first page, page 1 in paragraph 7 (a) you say that you were a member of the African National Congress, in (b) you say that you acted as a Chairperson of the Youth League under the United Democratic Front, is that correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And on page 2, under paragraph 9(a), you say that as a - sorry, leading the UDF Youth League, you were responsible for the death of IFP members, do you see that?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And you say that this incident took place on the 25th of March 1990 at a place called Umtwalumi in the Umzinto area near the Caesar Bantu Beer Hall, correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And in paragraph 9 (iv) at the bottom of page 2 of the bundle, you set out the nature and particulars as follows
"There was a dispute in the area between IFP member who were led by chiefs and councillors of the area, you called them Umtwalumi tribe and the UDF, the Umtwalumi Youth League, which was formed by yourself."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say that
"The ANC was in exile at the time and chiefs were opposing any formation of an organisation associated with it. Those chiefs were Chief Bhekizizwe and Luthuli and Chief Khalakuba Kawula."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: On page 3 of the bundle in paragraph 10 (b) you say that
"As a result of this on-going conflict, many people were killed on both sides and houses were burnt."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly tell us, he's applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of who in particular and on what dates, because we'll have to give that in our decision.
MR DEHAL: That is contained, Mr de Jager, in the next paragraph on page 3, 9(c) where he gives out the names as Mr Jabuliswe Thabethe, Mr Nana Shinga, Mr Thulani Gumede and others and by others, if you look at the pages, I don't know whether you have this in your bundle, but the first two pages which are not enumerated, preceding page 1, you will find that there are sixteen persons names there, it's for all sixteen.
JUDGE DE JAGER: For all sixteen named as victims in the summary by the analyst?
MR DEHAL: Correct. May I just confirm this? Bear with me.
JUDGE DE JAGER: I presume he wouldn't know the names of all the persons killed at that occasion, but he's applying for all the deaths that occurred on that date at that place during an attack they launched.
MR DEHAL: That is correct and in addition, may I just say that it was incorrect for me to presume that the first two pages preceding the application at page enumerated 1, details all the victims, it does not, in fact on the contrary this is a page that details the names of some of the comrades who participated within the ranks of the ANC under the wing of this applicant and also some of these people were killed well after the applicant came to be arrested and not on the applicant's instructions, so perhaps I could take instructions on that later and clarify it.
CHAIRPERSON: I think that what is clear is that he may not know all the people that were killed, because he wasn't the only man, he was part of a group of people that carried out a general attack and some of his colleagues were responsible for some of the deaths and so on. I understand that because he gave the order and because he led the people, that he's assuming responsibility for their acts.
MR DEHAL: Absolutely correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now that being so, I think that at some stage, you will get him to tell us people whom he personally was involved in attacking, injuring or killing, point one and that he takes responsibility for the deaths of the others who's names, if they are made available to him, he may confirm.
MR DEHAL: Thank you very much. Mr Chairperson, I think that these two questions are somewhat exhaustively dealt with in the proposed statement I talk of. Unfortunately it's not here. Thank you. May I proceed?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Madlala, I now take you to page 3 of your application. We were dealing with paragraphs 9(c). You've detailed the names of some persons and you say: "and others". That is something we will deal with later, okay?
MR MADLALA: Okay.
MR DEHAL: Now in paragraph 10(a), you say - sorry on page 3 at the bottom
"The political objective was to create political tolerance and liberating your people from the laws of apartheid."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And on page 4 in paragraph 10(b) you say under justification for these acts, omissions or offences
"There is no justification for loss of life and damage to property."
You however feel that:
"Had the chiefs in the area allowed organisations like the African National Congress, the situation could have been kept under control. Political intolerance displayed by chiefs and Inkatha Freedom Party sparked the unnecessary violence."
MR MADLALA: Yes, that is correct.
MR DEHAL: I then take you to page 5 of the bundle, paragraph 11 (b) wherein you deal with the particulars of orders, approvals given and obtained. You say the following
"I, Tom J Madlala, selected a group of 26 strong men from the UDF, Umtwalumi Youth League, gave them the weapons and ammunition and also gave them the order to protect our people, by shooting to kill our attackers."
MR MADLALA: That is correct, I said so.
MR DEHAL: You then deal with ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of weapons did you give them?
MR MADLALA: There were various weapons, firearms, assegais, bush knives and ordinary knives.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Then you deal with your having been charged in the Umzinto Magistrates Court, held at the Scottburgh Courts and ...(indistinct) under case number H 269/90 with ten counts of murder and one count of arson. You say that you were convicted, you were found guilty of four counts of murder, you were sentenced on the 8th of August 1991 to 15 years imprisonment. Is that correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Is it correct that you are presently held in custody serving this very sentence of 15 years at Westville Prison presently?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask for clarification, is he able to say whether the 15 years was 15 years in respect of each of the four counts to run concurrently, or was 15 years the total of the sentence for the four counts?
MR MADLALA: It is 15 years for each count, but they ran concurrently.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Madlala, I now take you to page 8 to 22 of the bundle. This is a letter that you sent to the TRC Amnesty Committee in which you detailed relatively exhaustively the events of the 25th March 1990 being the date on which these incidents for which you seek amnesty occurred. Do you see that?
MR MADLALA: Yes, I wrote the letter.
MR DEHAL: So this is your handwriting, is it?
MR MADLALA: Yes, it is.
MR DEHAL: Do you confirm, for the purposes of this record, the correctness of the contents of that letter in its entirety, as being correct?
MR MADLALA: Yes, I do.
MR DEHAL: If I may take you to page 13 of this letter - sorry, forgive me, firstly to page 9 of the letter, from line 8 downwards, do you see you say that you appeared before Mr van Aarde Esq on a charge of attempted murder of Mr Gabenga Mzelemu who was the leader and also the number warlord of Inkatha Freedom Party. The trial was adjourned until the 25th of May. Later that case was withdrawn against all the comrades on the 26th of July 1990. Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And then you say you were subsequently arrested by officer van den Berg who conveyed you to the Meshlomanyama police station, whereafter you were held incommunicado, for 90 days?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You were held as a political detainee, without any rights to see your family. You deal with that on page 11, 12, you were not entitled to see a lawyer, you in fact had no visitation rights. On page 12 you record that your attorneys were Mr Rosh Dehal, that's myself, Mr Marcus Gumede and Ms Indira Kooverjee or Dehal Incorporated. Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: But that you could not get any visits from any of them either?
MR MADLALA: Yes. The attorneys only managed to visit me after three weeks.
MR DEHAL: Yes, you deal with that at the bottom of page 12 and page 13 and then if I take you to page 13, at the middle of that page, actually let's begin at the top. You say
"At Scottburgh Magistrates Court, South Coast, you were indicted for the charge of public violence and that public violence was commuted, you say, to a charge of 10 counts of murder and one count of arson. All those charges were related to the incident that took place at Umtwalumi in the district of Umzinto near Caesar Bantu Beer Hall on the 25th of March 1990 in which 13 IFP people were shot, stabbed and hacked to death by you and the members of the UDF Umtwalumi Youth League."
Do you see that?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: So are you seeking amnesty for the deaths of these 13 IFP people who were so stabbed and hacked to death?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: And as I understand it, in this paragraph you are saying that whilst you personally acted in so causing their deaths, there were others who assisted you under your instructions within the rank of the UDF Youth League in that area.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he also convicted on the charges of public violence and arson?
MR MADLALA: The charges were both withdrawn.
MR DEHAL: Then in the next paragraph on page 13, you say that on the 24th of March 1990, now this is the date immediately preceding the day on which the incidents for which you seek amnesty took place, you say
"On that day the 24th March 1990, the Mawaka and Umgageni villages had been a stronghold of the ANC. Our people were attacked and killed. The women were raped. Sorry - the women were raped and I think then you said the attacked, according to eye witnesses and victims was conducted by Inkatha members, or well-known people of the Umtwalumi tribe. Among them were Headman Umkopane Radebe, the Warlord Ungandu Luthuli, Mr Zonkezintho Shinga, Warlord Sipo Ngwane, Warlord Roy Blackenberg and others with their support."
Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: On page 14 of this letter, you continue at the top to say that
"These IFP members and warlords acted with the support of the KwaZulu police, ZP, and the SAP of Hibberdene and Port Shepstone police station."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say five of your people, by your people I presume you mean the UDF Youth League?
MR MADLALA: Yes.
MR DEHAL: You say five of your people had been gunned down. You then detail their names, Comrade Pholakele Dolly Ndwane 19 years old, Comrade Khulubone Mcame 30 years old, Comrade Kubu Kuebe Mzelemu 31 years old, Comrade Keshla Mkhize 27 years old and Comrade Zamfana Radebe. These were all murdered, others were wounded, including women, men and children.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did all this take place on the 24th of March?
MR MADLALA: That's correct.
MR DEHAL: You then continue to say in the next paragraph on page 14, that's the second paragraph, that you were absent in the area that day. In that attack three IFP people were also killed by the UDF comrades in self-defence. Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then you deal again with the 25th March, that's the date on which the incidents for which you seek amnesty occurred, sorry 25th March 1990. You say
"On 25th March 1990, Mawakha police warner by me personally of an imminent attack..."
CHAIRPERSON: That's supposed to be warned, I think.
MR DEHAL: Sorry, is that warned?
CHAIRPERSON: Warned.
MR DEHAL: Thank you very much.
"The police warned by me personally of an imminent attack on residents by Inkatha Freedom Party, IFP members and supporters and her hit squad. No deterrent action was taken."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say you found yourself as a leader of the UDF Umtwalumi Youth League, under pressure to make the special arrangements for arming your people to protect your innocent people. You were under pressure to protect your people which means that you were forced to shoot to kill on occasions and you also gave the instructions to all your comrades to do the same. It is unfortunate that 13 people belonging to the IFP were killed by you and your comrades. Is that correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Who exerted this pressure on you?
MR MADLALA: It was the attack that was launched by the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't any particular person who exerted pressure on you, it was the event?
MR MADLALA: It's not that I was pressurised by a particular person, but it was the situation that took place in the area.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. On page 15 you then continue in the second paragraph, to deal with the day following the incident of the 25th March. You say
"On the 26th March 1990 at Mawakwe, Inkatha supporters with a group of strong armed SAP invaded Mawakwe and Umgangeni which resulted in the loss of at least five lives of your people. Comrades Mrs Nthombilesi Gambushe, Comrades Miss Bonakele Majola, Mr Nkanaza Mzelemu, Comrade Mrs Malunga with her five month old baby on her back and Comrade Miss Pungzile Gambushe, were seriously wounded, lost her unborn baby, she was hospitalised for months at Port Shepstone Hospital and that 12 more houses were burnt down in that incident of the 26th March."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You then set out that on the 29th of March 1990, two days later, on the third day following, you and others narrowly survived death. You were accompanied by others, that's three comrades, on the way to Durban. That's Comrade Mzongile A Madlala, Comrade Miss Nanake Shanga, Comrade Mr Fikane R Madlala and yourself, Tom Madlala, when you were kidnapped by the three members of IFP Third Force and then you go on to page 16. You say
"Madlala and Mr Raymond Fikane Madlala were shot and wounded and you were rushed to Port Shepstone Hospital, under a strong armed policemen escort."
You say one man was killed instead, but no arrests have been made.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The Madlala you mention there is not the person who is the second applicant, Falake Professor Madlala?
MR MADLALA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: That's not the same person.
MR MADLALA: No, it's not the same person, but he's also present here.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that. I'm talking about being involved at that time. Whether he was present with you or not. Yes, carry on.
MR DEHAL: So the second applicant was not involved in this incident. Correct?
MR MADLALA: No.
MR DEHAL: You then say in the next paragraph on page 16
"The main suspect."
That's the second paragraph, sorry.
"The main suspect was the IFP leader, Mr Mbabana Sengani."
Is that Sengani?
MR MADLALA: Sengani, yes.
MR DEHAL
"But the police refused to arrest him just because he is an IFP leader."
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say you personally made a sworn statement and implicated Mr Sengani, but despite this, no one was arrested by the South African Police.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You then continue to say that the residents were all totally evicted from their homes, their goods confiscated, their houses forcefully occupied by IFP supporters, that not a single former resident was restored to his or her home, but despite this, no arrests have been made.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now this incident, this paragraph, when you say the residents were all totally all evicted, is that relating - is it a general statement you are making or is it an event that occurred on that day when you missed or you escaped being killed, 29th of March?
MR MADLALA: It's something that started on the 10th of February 1990 up until the 26th of March.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)
MR MADLALA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Carry on.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Then I see that you skip a few months and you go to the 8th of August 91, at the bottom, page 16 on the last paragraph. You say that on the 8th of August 1991, you were tried, convicted and sentenced to 15 years imprisonment for four counts of murdering the IFP people. You were sentenced by Justice Andrew Wilson at Scottburgh Supreme Court, a Circuit Court.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Then again you generalise. On page 17 you deal generally with the background of the issue and you say
"There was a dispute in the area between IFP members who were led by chiefs, Chief Luthuli, Chief Galaku, Gwelaluko from Mkwawula and Councillors of the area on the one side and the UDF Youth League,"
... which was formed and led by yourself on the other, consisting also on your side of the ANC who was then in exile at the time, of course represented locally by yourself through the UDF. You say the chiefs were opposing any formation of an organisation associated with them. By "with them" I presume you mean with the ANC?
MR MADLALA: With the ANC, yes, of course. That is correct.
MR DEHAL: You say arising generally from this general dispute between the two sides, many people were killed on both sides. Some went missing and houses and kraals were burnt. The UDF Front was operating with the ANC approval.
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Now if I may just stop there and go a little backward. If I may take you to the occasion when first you became politicised. Do you recall when that occurred?
MR MADLALA: I first became involved in politics in 1986.
MR DEHAL: Can you tell this Committee briefly how that arose? Which organisation did you support and how did you become a member of it and whether it was still in exile, etc?
MR MADLALA: I supported and joined the UDF but the organisation that existed in my area was the IFP and it was through the IFP that I learned about the ANC, although it was difficult at that time to identify ANC members and supporters. The IFP would let it be known that there were people they were fighting against, people who were imprisoned, that was when I became interested in knowing who these people are and where they are. That is how I gained knowledge about the ANC, but my first involvement and active role started in 1989.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Madlala, I see that you say on pages 20 - sorry on page 21, 22, that these are 62 persons whom you could recall being a list of known names of the UDF people whose houses were burnt down at Umtwalumi by the IFP people.
MR MADLALA: Yes, I compiled that list.
MR DEHAL: And I see you say to the TRC on the side of page 22 that if they wanted more information on this, they should contact myself at my offices.
MR MADLALA: Yes.
MR DEHAL: Is it correct that - sorry, firstly may I ask you, will you please detail how it came about that I, as your lawyer of this area during that time, came to have a record of these people who died, dealing with their funerals etc within the ranks of the UDF in the course of that struggle?
MR MADLALA: I was associated with Mr Dehal because I knew him to be a lawyer for Human Rights. I then approached Mr Dehal after certain comrades had been detained without trial, after a police raid in Umtwalumi. I then approached Mr Dehal at his offices to seek assistance because we did not have money but we requested legal assistance. That's how I got to know him.
MR DEHAL: Just go a little slower, okay. Carry on.
MR MADLALA: From that time onwards, he would represent comrades who were detained and he will also represent those people who would be murdered and he would also contribute to their funerals and also contribute towards bail fees for those who were detained. That is how we became associated and we are still associated up to this day.
MR DEHAL: Is it correct that there are records available of at least these 62 people who belonged to the Youth League of the UDF under your wing, under your instructions, with you as the leader of the that Youth League of the UDF, who suffered prejudice at the level that you have recorded on pages 21 and 22?
MR MADLALA: Yes, the records and the statements are with the attorney, Mr Dehal. After their houses were burnt down, we hired a bus.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't he give evidence about this before the Human Rights Commission and the Reparations Committee of the TRC and send in details?
MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr de Jager, I'm not aware of that. I know that this applicant has had on-going difficulties in having his applications heard and various presentations brought before different forums and perhaps he can answer that question.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, because this concerns the victims that should be referred to the Reparations Committee and it's not connected with the Amnesty as it were.
MR DEHAL: I agree. It seems as though it was not done. Can we just ask him, if you don't mind? Mr Madlala, have you given evidence before the TRC's Reparations Committee relating to the victims especially these 62 victims?
MR MADLALA: Yes, on the 10th of July 1996, I contacted the TRC through the Social Workers in prison. The statement takers from the TRC came to me on the 10th of July and I made a statement about ANC victims and I also made a statement about IFP victims, particularly those who were killed by comrades that I was aware of. I also made a statement about the victims who had died, ANC victims as well as people whose houses were burnt down. On the 19th of November 1998 a Commissioner from the Reparations Committee, came to me. He had forms which they could fill, that is for the people whose statements had been approved by the TRC. I then made arrangements for those people to converge at Hibberdene to fill those forms. That is what has happened with regards to the people on this list. Unfortunately I sent messages to IFP victims, but I got no response, but I have heard since that some people did go to fill out the forms. Likewise with ANC victims, those people who did not turn up to fill in the forms and I was informed that they were intimidated by the Chief who warned them not to involve themselves with me or the TRC, so those people have been unable to fill in those reparation forms. That is all I know.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell me, you may or may not, are you able to tell me during what period these people whose houses were destroyed or burnt down, whose names appear on this list, whether that occurred - during what period was that?
MR MADLALA: This first started on the 10th of February. Also on the 11th of February and it stopped for a while. It restarted on the 16th of March and on the 24th and the 25th as well as the 16th of March. I was then arrested in April, so I do not know what happened thereafter.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR DEHAL: And all of this in the year 1990, is it?
MR MADLALA: Yes, that is correct.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Madlala, I now take you to pages 23 to 25 of the bundle. Is that an affidavit that you deposed to, I see that the copy that we have is not signed, but will you confirm that this is your affidavit which deals with this incident briefly, the background of your political activity, the issues between the IFP and the UDF and do you confirm the correctness thereof?
MR MADLALA: Yes, I made the statement, although it is a shortened version because Mr Cele said I would give more details when I appear before the Committee.
MR DEHAL: And of course the statement which you've signed, is the handwritten statement contained on pages 26 to 32 of the bundle, which has now been typed, being the one we've just referred to. Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I am indebted to you for the indulgence. My assistant has just walked in. This statement is at hand. May I cause copies to be handed over?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: This document will go in as Exhibit A.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Madlala, I know that you have not seen the statement. I have not either, but this is a statement compiled on your instructions to Ms Mohammed from my offices. Can we go through the statement briefly?
CHAIRPERSON: If you can avoid repeating what has already been covered fully so far, I'll be pleased.
MR DEHAL: Thank you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I perhaps suggest that during the tea adjournment, you go through and he could only confirm it? You need not read it out again, we've heard his evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Unless there is something here which is not in the previous statement.
MR DEHAL: I agree with that. I see it's almost 11 o'clock. Can we take that short adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment and resume at 11.15.
MR DEHAL: Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
TOM JABULANI MADLALA: (s.u.o)
EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL: (Cont)
Mr Madlala, do you confirm that during the short recess you were taken through this statement, Exhibit A, and you confirm the correctness thereof, save for the word evening in paragraph 18? What do you want to alter that to? You said the same evening is incorrect. Do you want to say: "The same day"? Is that it?
MR MADLALA: I did not understand it clearly because the incident happened during the day, so the word evening poses a problem.
MR DEHAL: So if I altered that to read the same day, meaning the 25th of March, would that be okay with you?
MR MADLALA: Yes, I would agree with that. 25th of March, during the day, not in the evening.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members, may I then ask that Exhibit A, paragraph 18 be amended to read "The same day (25th March 1990)"?
CHAIRPERSON: That amendment will be made.
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir. So Mr Madlala, apart from that, do you confirm the correctness of Exhibit A on all 22 paragraphs?
MR MADLALA: Yes, that is correct.
MR DEHAL: May I take you to paragraph 13? If you recall, just before the short adjournment, in answer to the Chair's question, you talked of the period as having commenced on the 10th of February, do you recall that?
MR MADLALA: I would like to clear up something. We should rather start in January and not February.
CHAIRPERSON: What started in January?
MR MADLALA: That was the beginning of the IFP attack launched on my home on the 1st and 2nd of January as well as on the 7th, as well as a meeting that I held with IFP leaders on the 8th of January, so that everyone would be in the picture of what happened. I would like to be given an opportunity to talk about this incident briefly, particularly for the benefit of the victims.
MR DEHAL: Yes, I don't mind that, but do you mind just looking at paragraph 10 before you do so? On page 2 of Exhibit A, you deal there with the 1st of January 1990, do you see that?
MR MADLALA: Yes.
MR DEHAL: Yes, you were wanting to say something?
MR MADLALA: Let us look at paragraph 9.
MR DEHAL: Yes, carry on.
MR MADLALA: What happened was the Umtwalumi Youth League was formed in 1986, but it operated underground and was not known to many people. There was a complaint launched with the chief, that there were people heard in the evenings, singing, but the community didn't know who those people were. In 1989 the chief gave his approval to the youth at ...(indistinct) to meet and discuss what political party they were supporting, whether the UDF or IFP. That meeting was to be held on the 29th of September 1989 at my home.. My home was the stronghold of the IFP. Everything was done there at home.
CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear him correctly that his home was the stronghold of the IFP?
MR DEHAL: Prior to his becoming a UDF ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously), indeed.
MR MADLALA: Yes my home. That meeting on the 26th was not successful because people did not pitch up. It was then postponed to December, 30th. Before this date the youth would approach me and wanted to know if they should attend the meeting, so I encouraged them to do so and informed them that the meeting will no longer be held at my home but at a certain mountain in ...(indistinct). So the meeting was held and a lot of young people arrived. I chaired that meeting and I first explained to them about the IFP, about the UDF and about Cosatu and about ...(indistinct). I then challenged the youth present, asking them: "How long are we going to operate underground? Why don't we operate openly?" As the meeting was still in progress the Chief came, he was with my father who was his Induna. They were also with the Councillor Mr Zuma. The Chief stopped the car a distance away and sent my father to come to us. When my father arrived, he informed us that the Chief requested minutes of this meeting for him to know whether the youth supported the IFP or the UDF. A dispute arose between myself and my father because the meeting was not formal, it was just a mass meeting, therefore the Chief would not be in a position to obtain any minutes. My brother, Madambe, also had a dispute, an altercation with my father, but to avoid further conflict, I promised my father that I would hand over the minutes for him to give to the Chief. My father then returned to the car. That is when Umtwalumi Youth League was formed. The Executive Committee was also elected on the very same day.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt at this stage? For purposes of my record, what was the name of the Chief to whom your father was the Induna.
MR MADLALA: Chief Bhekizizwe ...(intervention
CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that?
MR MADLALA: B-H-E-K-I-Z-I-Z-W-E Narvad Luthuli.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the second name?
MR MADLALA: The second name is Narvad.
INTERPRETER: He says Narvad.
CHAIRPERSON: The second name was?
MR MADLALA: N-A-R-V-A-D.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MADLALA: The surname is Luthuli.
MR DEHAL: Mr Madlala, having set the background, can I take you to the 10th of February? Is that fine?
MR MADLALA: Let me just finish off about that, about the 30th of December.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, only if it's necessary, because a lot of the background has been covered. Greater detail may not advance the case very much further. It might make very interesting reading, but for the purposes of the present application, ...(intervention)
MR DEHAL: I agree.
CHAIRPERSON: Make the points that you wish to emphasise.
MR DEHAL: I agree. Mr Madlala, that background's been adequately set. Do you mind if we proceed to the 10th of February? If I may take you to paragraph 13 of Exhibit A.
MR MADLALA: Okay.
MR DEHAL: You say that on the 10th of February, 48 houses in the Umtwalumi area were burnt by the IFP. You saw that the police were present, but they did nothing to prevent this. The Comrades and the IFP once more clashed. Two IFP members were killed. You killed one of them but no charges were proffered against you. Now, do you know the person you killed?
MR MADLALA: No, I do not.
MR DEHAL: Why not?
MR MADLALA: What happened from the 1st of January was that the IFP would collect people from other areas, areas like Lindelane or ...(indistinct) at Emapondwene and people from Chief Kawula's area, so that most of the people who were killed were not known to me. I did not know them. For instance, on the 1st of January I shot somebody at my home. I did not know who that person was. He was another gentleman from kwaMakhutha, therefore when we clashed with the IFP, it would be - we were fighting against people we did not know because they were not from the area. This did not happen just on these two occasions but there were many others where unknown persons would attack us, some of them speaking Xhosa.
ME DEHAL: I take you to paragraph 14, which deals with the following day, the 11th of February. You say here that the IFP once more attacked the area, more houses were burnt, a fight once more ensued between the IFP and the Comrades. You personally shot and killed two IFP members. You were not arrested for this incident. Later that night several comrades were abducted and killed by the IFP. Now, this person that you shot and killed was an IFP member, sorry two of those persons. Do you know who they are, or can you not tell for the same reasons, for the reasons adduced relative to the incident on the 10th of February?
MR MADLALA: I do not know with regards to the people who died on the 10th but I did not know the people who died on the 11th either.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. You then say that on the 13th of February, in paragraph 15 of Exhibit A
"The police raided the area and arrested 16 comrades. They were charged with public violence."
You were arrested later together with other comrades and you were charged with public violence and one count of attempted murder.
"During this time, Mr Dehal (that's myself and other legal representatives from my office) represented UDF members. After several court appearances, the charges of public violence and attempted murder were withdrawn."
Is that correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But you have already told us that before, why should he repeat it, that those charges were withdrawn?
MR DEHAL: Correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Carry on.
MR DEHAL: Thereafter you deal with the 24th of March and the 25th of March which we have now lawfully dealt with. In fact you dealt with that exhaustively when you dealt with the exhibits in the bundle, correct?
MR MADLALA: That's correct.
MR DEHAL: The second applicant, Falake Madlala, is he your younger brother?
MR MADLALA: Yes, he is.
MR DEHAL: And is it correct that he fell under the wing - under your command under the wing of the UDF Youth League and acted under your instructions?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Sorry, just one additional aspect. If you look at page 51 of the bundle, there is a victim known as Mzelemu, who claims to be your uncle and who says that on the 3rd of February 1990, his house was attacked by you, the applicant and a number of other people unknown to him.
MR MADLALA: Page?
MR DEHAL: 51.
MR MADLALA: I know that person, he is my uncle.
MR DEHAL: Now you've not applied for amnesty for this incident. Do you know of this incident? Were you involved in this incident?
MR MADLALA: I did not apply for amnesty for that incident because I did not take part in that incident, I was away at the time.
MR DEHAL: I understand from your instructions that you had a mass democratic movement, UDF/ANC aligned meeting on the morning of that day when your uncle was attacked. You'd chaired that meeting and you were away from the area. Correct?
MR MADLALA: That is correct.
MR DEHAL: Do you know whether the second applicant, Falake, was involved in this incident relating to the attack on your uncle?
MR MADLALA: As far as I know, he was not present. I was informed that he arrived later when my uncle had already been attacked.
MR DEHAL: Yes. Now if I may just take you back to lastly the 25th, the day on which the incidents occurred for which you are seeking amnesty, can you briefly detail how it occurred that these people whose deaths occurred, came to be attacked by you and the comrades under you? What gave rise to the problem?
MR MADLALA: I would begin on the 24th.
MR DEHAL: No, I think we've dealt with the 24th. We've gone through your letter on that.
MR MADLALA: Okay.
MR DEHAL: And those details are fairly sufficient. We've also dealt with the 25th and the number of persons that died and the clash between the chiefs and yourselves. Just to get to the point of saying precisely how on the 25th, from that morning, what happened and how it happened.
MR MADLALA: Okay. On that day we left our camp which was a farm because by that time most houses had been burnt. There was a problem that some of our comrades were missing after being attacked. I had sent Martials to go and check if it was safe to return to our camp and we were informed that it was safe, so we returned. On our way, I instructed them to go check along the way if there were dead bodies along the way seeing that there were people missing. The first person we came across was Dolly Ngwane. She was around 14 years of age.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Dehal I think that you've led evidence that this was part of this on-going war. If you look at the bundle, even the Attorney-General of the province at that stage, accepted that these murders were associated with a political objective. Nobody has attacked it so far, so I - unless somebody would dispute that, I think as far as I'm concerned, I'm satisfied that these were deeds associated with a political objective so I don't think whether you should labour it any more, unless if we've got problems we'll ask questions about it.
MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, Mr de Jager, in fact I support and endorse those sentiments. The only reservation, the reason that necessitated this testimony is that the Evidence Leader drew to my attention that the victims would like to hear in the own words of the applicant how it happened, so I think it's sufficiently covered actually. Thank you. Mr Madlala, that would conclude your application for amnesty and if there's something you haven't dealt with on any given point, on any aspect that you now seek to address on which we haven't dealt with, then you can deal with those, but I think we've dealt with all the aspects, haven't we?
MR MADLALA: Yes.
MR DEHAL: Thank you. That is the evidence. Sorry.
MR MADLALA: Maybe for the benefit of the victims, would it not be proper to go through the 25th in detail?
MR DEHAL: Well, we've dealt with it as per your letter which has sufficient details for the present. I think if you are cross-examined or questioned by the Evidence Leader for specific details, perhaps at that occasion we can deal with it.
MR MADLALA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Counsel for the objectors, the dependants, he is present, he may wish to ask questions and you can then give the answers at that stage, if he requires the answers to those questions. Alright?
MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir. So that concludes the evidence for this applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR DEHAL: Thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo.
MR HARKOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: I just want one point of clarification. Mr Madlala, you'll accept that your attack on these persons on the 25th, was basically an attack that was against IFP members, but you were not aware precisely who those persons were at that point in time. Is that correct?
MR MADLALA: When we attacked, we directed the attacks to the IFP members, but we didn't have a list of names as to who, but we were attacking IFP members and we knew very well that there wasn't a single person who wasn't IFP.
MR HARKOO: Yes. At the same time, it may very well have been that those members were in fact not necessarily perpetrators of violence. While they may have supported the IFP, they may have been members of the IFP, but those persons, the deceased or those that were injured in that attack, were not necessarily perpetrators of violence, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: You mean violence the previous day?
MR HARKOO: Violence the previous day ...
CHAIRPERSON: Or on previous occasions?
MR HARKOO: Or on previous occasions.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question? On the 25th when you attacked people whom you knew to be IFP, was it because of their involvement on the attack on the UDF the previous day, or was it because of their previous attacks on members of the UDF on other occasions?
MR MADLALA: Let me just clarify there as to what happened. In the morning I got a report from the martials. I was told that IFP was getting ready to attack us. I reported this matter to the police, who came to fetch the bodies and police said they didn't have manpower. There were people who were armed and they were ready to attack and I said to the comrades: "We mustn't wait for them to come and attack us, we must go first." To say that we were just guessing and that we attacked the wrong people, I'm saying even though some of them didn't attack us, but most people who were there were IFP members and they were the attackers.
MR HARKOO: Thank you. That is all. Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR MADLALA: And another thing also that I want to clarify here. We're not talking about violence which took place in the middle of the night, we're talking about the violence that took place during the day. This happened during the day, not in the night.
CHAIRPERSON: On both sides there were women and children who were attacked, is that correct?
MR MADLALA: It was common knowedge that IFP attacks indiscriminate and also they were burning down houses. We did the same on the 25th.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand. No further questions?
MR HARKOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you have?
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: What are you by occupation?
MR MADLALA: I was working in a factory.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of work?
MR MADLALA: I was a machine operator in that firm.
CHAIRPERSON: Machine for making what?
MR MADLALA: To make the springs which are used in beds and lounge suites.
CHAIRPERSON: What level of education have you had?
MR MADLALA: I am still studying, but I do have matric.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you married and do you have children?
MR MADLALA: I do have a fiancee and children as well. One and the other one passed away.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the relationship between you and your father now?
MR MADLALA: We love each other very well. I don't think we will ever be in conflict.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Just hold on.
MR SIBANYONI: As an ANC leader, I'm just asking for the benefit of the Panel which is sitting in one of these matters, did you assist any of the people at Westville to complete their application forms?
MR MADLALA: We had a meeting, leadership of the ANC and IFP. We applied, most of them did so. I am still the Chairperson of the ANC in prison and I did so.
MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of the applicants which you completed the forms in your handwriting?
MR MADLALA: I think three of them because my attorney requested me to help him.
MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of them who are present during this week here?
MR MADLALA: No. I do have a problem because we experienced problems in Westville, we as members of ANC whenever we were putting our applications and if you check in the bundle, you'll see where I wrote and I was complaining and what I realise is that IFP members who lodged their applications, they were attended to, those applications, quicker than ANC members and I realised that and I wasn't happy. I called Cape Town on the 10th of January.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that concludes the evidence for this applicant. May I just mention that, as can be seen from the crowd at the back, contained in that crowd are a number of persons who are potential witnesses who would support this applicant's testimony but lest the contrary deduction be drawn, given the nature of the cross-examination and the discussion I've had with my learned colleague who represents the victims, there seems little point in me calling those witnesses. For the reasons of expediency, I'd rather not. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. You're calling the second applicant?
MR DEHAL: I am. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Please do.
