ON RESUMPTION
MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, can we just go through a few personal details ...(intervention)
ADV SIGODI: We must first swear him in. Please give us your full names.
STEMBISO RODNEY TEMBE: (sworn states)
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be allowed just a minute to obtain another bundle for myself? The person who was sitting next to me took my bundle with her. Thanks.
EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, how old are you?
MR TEMBE: I'm 36 years old.
MS DE KLERK: ...(indistinct)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MR TEMBE: Please repeat the question.
MS DE KLERK: Where are you currently residing?
MR TEMBE: At Umlazi, 315.
MS DE KLERK: Do you have any children?
MR TEMBE: Yes.
MS DE KLERK: How many?
MR TEMBE: Two children. No sorry, one child.
MS DE KLERK: Are you married?
MR TEMBE: No.
MS DE KLERK: Where were you living before you went to prison?
MR TEMBE: At AmaWoti.
MS DE KLERK: How long did you live there?
MR TEMBE: I had residing there for a long time. At the time I was residing in town, but my home is at AmaWoti.
MS DE KLERK: Why were you residing at the flat in town?
MR TEMBE: It was because of the political situation at AmaWoti.
MS DE KLERK: At the time when you were living in AmaWoti, did you belong to a political party?
MR TEMBE: Yes.
MS DE KLERK: What was the name of particular political party?
MR TEMBE: At that time it was the UDF Alliance. The UDF was closely aligned to the ANC and I fell out of favour with the ANC because of the fighting that was going on, so I left that organisation and joined the PAC when I started living in town.
MS DE KLERK: Why did you join the PAC?
MR TEMBE: It was because of their policies regarding the struggle.
MS DE KLERK: What were their policies regarding the struggle?
MR TEMBE: It was the restoration of Africa to Africans, because it belonged to them.
MS DE KLERK: And did you agree with the political philosophy of the PAC?
MR TEMBE: Yes, I did.
MS DE KLERK: Did you have any reservations about any of the PAC's philosophies, or did you agree with everything?
MR TEMBE: I agreed with everything.
MS DE KLERK: How did you become a member of the PAC?
MR TEMBE: After political organisations were unbanned, I decided to leave the ANC because I was no longer in agreement with their policies, as well as for the fact that there was ongoing fighting with the IFP, therefore I decided to join the PAC.
MS DE KLERK: What was your role in the PAC?
MR TEMBE: I was a supporter.
MS DE KLERK: So were you not a member of the PAC?
MR TEMBE: Yes, I was a member.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive a card, a membership card?
MR TEMBE: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you receive the card, which year round about?
MR TEMBE: I think it was in 1990, when organisations were unbanned.
MS DE KLERK: You've mentioned that there was political instability in the area in which you lived prior to your moving to Durban, were many people killed there?
MR TEMBE: Yes, it was a war between the two political organisations and it was not clear why they had to fight amongst themselves when the oppressor was content and had nothing to do with their fight.
MS DE KLERK: Okay. You've heard Mr Sithole's evidence about the incident on the 9th of October 1990, is that correct?
MR TEMBE: Yes.
MS DE KLERK: Can you tell us, on the evening of the 8th of October, where were you on that evening?
MR TEMBE: I was at my flat, from there I went to the beach where everyone had assembled.
MS DE KLERK: How did you know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpretation is coming through and I've put my apparatus on maximum, but it's very soft. I don't know whether you experience the same. Thank you, you can continue in the meantime.
INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.
MS DE KLERK: I asked you where were you on the night of the 8th of October, the evening preceding the incident on the 9th of October.
MR TEMBE: I was at my flat and from there I went to the beachfront and that was not very far because I lived on West Street.
MS DE KLERK: How did you know that you had to go to the beachfront?
MR TEMBE: The incident had previously been discussed amongst comrades, so that I knew that it would take place on the 9th.
MS DE KLERK: No, my question is, how did you know that you were supposed to meet other people at the beachfront.
MR TEMBE: We already knew that the incident was going to take place on the 9th, that is the stabbing of white people, so Howmore and other comrades had already explained that we would all meet in the beachfront where other comrades from Mduzuma would be assembled.
MS DE KLERK: What happened when you met at the beachfront?
MR TEMBE: What I can say is that some comrades were playing soccer and some were sitting around because there was nothing new to discuss.
MS DE KLERK: What were you doing?
MR TEMBE: I was just sitting around and talking to other comrades, motivating each other and also talking generally, because as I mentioned before we already knew what was going to take place the next day.
MS DE KLERK: Okay. Can you tell us briefly what happened the next day, what role did you play the next day?
MR TEMBE: On the evening of the 8th I went to my flat to get something to eat and returned. The following morning we all left and proceeded to the shop where we obtained knives and thereafter we went out and attacked white people. When they went into the shop I was standing outside, Howmore came out of the shop and handed a knife to me. I had the knife, after which I heard some gunshots and thereafter I fled.
CHAIRPERSON: Howmore handed you the knife, and what did you do then?
MR TEMBE: When Howmore started stabbing the first person a gunshot rang off and at that sound I fled, so I did not do anything, I did not stab anybody.
MS DE KLERK: I want to refer you to page 45 of the bundle, that is a statement which you submitted in support of your application for amnesty. Please refer to paragraph 4, in the middle of paragraph 4. You said there
"I can only remember Ntlantla, who was the bodyguard of the PAC President, Mr Makwetu, and who chaired the meeting. He is also dead."
Is this part of the statement correct?
MR TEMBE: Ntlantla did not chair the meeting, a mistake was committed there. He is a member of APLA and he was Mr Makwetu's bodyguard. He did arrive whilst we were at the beach, but I do not know what time he left. And he did not chair any meeting either.
MS DE KLERK: So why have you put in your statement that he chaired the meeting?
MR TEMBE: It could be that the person who took the statement did not understand me correctly.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you tell him about Mr Ntlantla?
MR TEMBE: The person enquired as to who in the higher echelons of the PAC was present that night, and I responded "I saw Ntlantla, who was Mr Makwetu's bodyguard", not that he chaired the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So he was present on the beach?
MR TEMBE: Yes, he did arrive, but I do not know when he left because I do not remember seeing him the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he aware of what was going to happen the following day?
MR TEMBE: All the comrades knew about it, and he had also come there to check on us, so I assumed that he was aware. Because this was a topic that was generally discussed amongst us, that we should launch an attack against white people.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you say he came to check on you?
MR TEMBE: He was there to check if we are there present at the beach, but I think he left at some point because I did not see him the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Proceed please.
MS DE KLERK: You also go on further by stating that this meeting had nothing to do with what happened the next day and in brackets it's got
(Committal of the offence, but we were discussing some other issues of the organisation)
Why did you state that?
MR TEMBE: As I said before, everyone was aware that we were going to take the violence to white people on the 9th, so that on the 8th we were not discussing what we were going to do the following day, we were just discussing general issues affecting the PAC. There was no need to discuss the matter further because we already knew that we are going to take the violence to the white people and let them feel what we feel on the knife.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. But was there a meeting on the 8th, a separate meeting, not discussing the attack, the planned attack for the 9th? Was there another PAC meeting on the preceding day, the 8th?
MR TEMBE: It was not a formal meeting, it was just that we were together in preparation for the attack that we were going to launch the following day, we were not discussing details about the attack because at the time everyone knew what was going to happen the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he present at that meeting the previous day, Mr Ntlantla?
MR TEMBE: You mean on the 8th?
CHAIRPERSON: On the 8th.
MR TEMBE: Yes he did arrive on the 8th, I saw him, but I did not see him the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but was he present at the meeting on the 8th or did you only see him at the beachfront? - while they were playing soccer there and he came to check on you.
MR TEMBE: We may be misunderstanding each other, there was no meeting held at the beachfront, we had just met there, gathered there for the action that we were going to take the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Now where did you gather on the 8th? Was there any gathering on the 8th which Mr Ntlantla attended?
MR TEMBE: We met at the beachfront, which was not to say we held a meeting, it was just being there together so that we all leave for the mission the following day.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you've stated here that this meeting on the 8th had nothing to do with the planning of the attack the following day, it was a gathering which was chaired by Mr Ntlantla. Was there such a meeting or wasn't there such a meeting?
MR TEMBE: It was not a formal meeting, we had just gathered for the following day. That is where I saw Ntlantla. But as Mr Sithole had mentioned earlier, they might have held a meeting at his home but at the beachfront we already were aware of what was going to happen the following day. People were just sitting around, playing soccer.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.
MS DE KLERK: In paragraph 5 of your statement you say that
"When we were at the corners of West Street and Point Road we noticed certain white people in civilian clothes, assaulting some black street hawkers with sjambocks."
When you speak about this incident, when was this incident and who are you referring to when you say "we"?
MR TEMBE: This does not refer to the 9th, this is something that took place generally along the beachfront and it still happens up to this day that street hawkers would be assaulted by white people and they would be assaulted because white people claimed the beachfront belonged to them.
CHAIRPERSON: On that day - did you see white people on that particular day, the 9th of October before the attack? Did you see white people sjambocking hawkers on that particular day?
MR TEMBE: No, not on that day.
MS DE KLERK: So why then did you mention it in your statement?
MR TEMBE: Perhaps the person who took the statement did not understand me, he asked me what led to this incident and I explained about my background, where I came from. For instance ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: As far as this misunderstanding is concerned, the person who took the statement, who was it?
MR TEMBE: A certain gentleman ...(intervention)
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may assist, it's our Investigator Joshua Skumbuzo Cele, TRC Investigator.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?
MS MTANGA: An Investigator, Joshua Skumbuzo Cele.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he Zulu-speaking?
MS MTANGA: He's Zulu-speaking, based here in Durban.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you later go to a police station or a police officer who attested to this statement, Inspector Cele?
MR TEMBE: No, he came to my home and took a statement and asked me to sign the statement, which I did, and I related the incident to him and he would write down.
CHAIRPERSON: And this statement was sworn to on the 11th of January, this is about two months ago.
MR TEMBE: Yes, it may be around that time because he found me at home at about nine in the morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Another thing, can you read English?
MR TEMBE: Yes, but my understanding is not that good.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you read this statement before you signed it?
MR TEMBE: No, he just informed me that he had noted down what I had related to him and he requested me to sign the statement.
CHAIRPERSON: And was that before the Commissioner of Oaths, Inspector Cele?
MR TEMBE: It's one and the same person.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS DE KLERK: So when you say that this incident, seeing white people sjambocking black street hawkers, then you say that
"This annoyed us and we intervened."
What do you mean there when you say that?
MR TEMBE: I was referring to the fact that this was one of the incidents and factors that annoyed and aggrieved us. When this gentleman came to my home, he enquired as to what led to the incident and I related the story that black women were assaulted, black hawkers were assaulted by white people along the beach and this was a usual occurrence and it did affect us. That is what I was explaining.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever intervene in such an assault? Come between the two people, the aggressor and the victim being assaulted? Did you intervene and try to prevent the assault?
MR TEMBE: No, I did not intervene, but that was one of the reasons why I joined the PAC, because they stood up for the rights of black people and I believed that they were the organisation that was going to liberate us.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you present seeing these people assaulting the hawkers? Standing by there?
MR TEMBE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did that happen?
MR TEMBE: Along the beachfront.
CHAIRPERSON: When did it happen?
MR TEMBE: As a person who resided nearby, I used to see this happening. It was a usual occurrence and it hurt me when I witnessed such things.
CHAIRPERSON: Well could you tell us, did you witness such an incident the day before, 10 days before the attack on the 9th?
MR TEMBE: I am not in a position to specify that, but if you were to go to the beachfront and enquire from the hawkers there as to the assaults that they suffer at the hands of white people, they would also be able to tell you. Because there is that belief amongst white people that the hawkers do not belong there, they are there to bring disorder to the beachfront.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, are you referring to white civilians or are you referring to white municipal policemen when you talk about these assaults on hawkers?
MR TEMBE: I am referring to white people in general.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Ms de Klerk.
MS DE KLERK: Mr Tembe, please take a look at page 29 of the bundle, paragraph 7(a). Can you please read the question there and your answer to that question.
MR TEMBE
"If you are an officer or were an officer or held a position or was a member or a supporter of a political organisation, institution or a liberation movement, please supply the name."
The response was a mistake because my first application was misplaced, so this I did in a hurry and I responded by "no", because I am a member of the PAC.
MS DE KLERK: And the second paragraph, paragraph (b), what was that question asked and what was your response thereto?
MR TEMBE
"State the role you played in that political organisation, institution or liberation movement of which you were a member and give the membership number if applicable."
And the response was -
"I was a member of the PAC."
At the time I had forgotten my membership number, so I did not write that down, but it should be recorded with the PAC offices, my number should be there.
MS DE KLERK: So is it correct that these two paragraphs that you've just read to me, you've made a mistake there, you've misread the question and you've incorrectly answered it?
MR TEMBE: Yes, there was a mistake because I am a member of the PAC.
MS DE KLERK: Can we proceed now. How did you feel about the incident of the stabbing on the 9th of October?
MR TEMBE: I was happy about it because I always believed that the violence should be taken to white people and it clearly demonstrated that we were sending a message to white people because assaulting one was representative of assaulting the rest.
MS DE KLERK: So by assaulting these white people, what did you hope to achieve? You as a member of the PAC.
MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, the government of this country was only interested in white people and by assaulting them we were going to expose the government to them to illustrate to them that they are not protected under that government. And in that fashion it would pave the way for the building and the forming of the new democratic government that would take the needs and interests of everyone to heart.
MS DE KLERK: Do you believe that this objective was achieved?
MR TEMBE: Yes, I believe so because right now we are under a democratic government that protects the rights of everyone.
MS DE KLERK: And at your trial, is it correct that Adv Phoswa also represented you?
MR TEMBE: Yes, he did.
MS DE KLERK: And is it correct that the PAC also paid for your legal representation?
MR TEMBE: That's correct.
MS DE KLERK: How do you feel now about the incident on the 9th of October?
MR TEMBE: I would say if the political situation at the time was similar to what we experience today, the incident would not have taken place. And I would also like to extend my regret to those who were injured and lost their loved ones, but the incident was a result of the political situation at the time.
MS DE KLERK: Is it correct that you received a 12 year imprisonment sentence with regard to the role that you played in this offence?
MR TEMBE: That is correct.
MS DE KLERK: And is it correct that you were released in November 1999?
MR TEMBE: That is correct.
MS DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DE KLERK
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Tembe, your representative asked you how did you know about the meeting that was to take place on the 8th of October, who told you about that meeting? About the gathering.
MR TEMBE: I would say the incident had been discussed previously, that on this particular day we would embark on this mission, so on the 8th it was Howmore who informed me that we should meet at the beachfront, but that time I was aware that we were going to meet because I used to interact with other comrades.
MS MTANGA: As a member of the PAC at that time, were you aware of any structure that - or was there a structure that you belonged to, or a branch of the PAC that you were in contact with?
MR TEMBE: I was a member of the Durban branch.
MS MTANGA: Was there a person who sort of assumed the position of leadership in your group or in that branch, whom you would regard as a leader at that time?
MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, there was a PAC branch, there were leaders but that was just a regional office.
MS MTANGA: Whereabout was this office in town?
MR TEMBE: I do not recall the street name, but it was in the same block as the AZAPO and NACTO officers.
MS MTANGA: In which area in town?
MR TEMBE: It was in the centre of town.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Chairperson of that branch?
MR TEMBE: In the PAC we normally call ourselves Africans, that is why I do not know their names. There were different who chaired meetings.
CHAIRPERSON: Well give us the names of the different people you're talking about.
MR TEMBE: For instance Ntlantla, sometimes Eunice. There was no person who had the responsibility of chairing the meetings, but it was different people and most of them I did not know their names because we normally call one another Africans.
MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Tembe, my understanding of the evidence of Mr Sithole is that the planning and the discussions about the operation that was to be taken on the 9th of October, was discussed in their informal group which was led Howmore Ngcobo. Now what I'm trying to understand from you is, you've indicated that you were based in town and you were not part of the discussions that took place at Sithole's house at Nduzuma. Now I need to know, in your meetings when did this discussion take place and who came up with the idea that this operation should take place on the 9th of October? Prior to you meeting on the 8th of October that is.
MR TEMBE: Howmore usually visited me and he would also sometimes spend nights at my home, so we usually held discussions and we would also distribute pamphlets with Howmore. As Mr Sithole has already mentioned, I was not at Nduzuma on that evening but at the time I already knew about the date because I had been told.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) asking you whether you were at the meeting, we're accepting that you weren't at the meeting where Mr Sithole was, at Mr Sithole's house, she's asking you who planned or who informed you of the plan to act on - to carry out this operation on the 9th? Was there a meeting at your house, where was the gathering, who told you about the operation on the 9th?
MR TEMBE: It was Howmore who first approached me with that idea that we should take the violence to white people, to illustrate our anger.
MS MTANGA: Mr Sithole indicated that apart from their group that came from Nduzuma, there were people who came from town, and it appears you were amongst them, are you able to tell us how many people came from town who were there on the 8th, who gathered with the group from the township on the 8th of October?
MR TEMBE: I would say that I left my flat, went to look for them at the beachfront and I did not find them at first. I thereafter went to check my friends at some point and I also returned to the beachfront later and I found them there. The Africans that resided in town that I saw, was Welcome.
MS MTANGA: Are you able to estimate how many people were there in total at the meeting, and who were present the following morning?
MR TEMBE: I think there were less than 20 people.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we know about 12 to 15 came from Mr Sithole's area, how many of your friends staying in town, attended the gathering on the beachfront on the morning before the attack?
MR TEMBE: As I've mentioned, I found them already at the beach. That is on the second occasion when I went to look for them.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes no, I understand that, but can't you tell us how many of those people you found there came from your area, or don't you know?
MR TEMBE: I do not know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: If you don't know, just tell us you don't know.
MR TEMBE: I do not know.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MTANGA: Mr Tembe, the reason that I'm asking you this question is I'm trying to understand. The evidence we have before us here is that this incident was planned way ahead of the date of the 9th of October, it was planned and it was well-known that on the 9th the attack will go on, and now I'm trying to understand how many people were told of this insensitive matter that was going to happen and how were they told. And in your case I'm finding it difficult because in Mr Sithole's case there was a meeting, a formal meeting where this was planned, and yet you are unable to say exactly how these instructions came to you that there was to be an operation on the 9th of October.
MR TEMBE: As I mentioned before, I was close to Howmore, we would meet and discuss and distribute pamphlets together. Many people were aware of the planned operation because we informed other Africans about the impeding attack. That was the retaliation on white people. But I'm not in a position to say how many people knew about the operation, but we did inform other comrades about it.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: I'm a bit concerned about the dispute arising as to a possible misunderstanding of the person who took down the affidavit. Affidavits are very important documents and I'll be very worried if somebody in the employ of the TRC, wouldn't take great care in preparing an affidavit, because that could lead to injustices being done. So if this Investigator is present I'd like him to explain to us whether there was a misunderstanding and how this misunderstanding came abut. I don't know if you could find out whether he could assist us please.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I think Mr Cele is available in the office, I have seen him this morning. Maybe if the Committee could allow a short adjournment for me to ask him to come here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Tembe, it's still not quite clear to me, how many of the people that were gathered at this open space at the beachfront, how many of them did you actually know, apart from Howmore?
MR TEMBE: It was two comrades who were staying in another flat behind the Wheel building.
ADV BOSMAN: Do you remember their names?
MR TEMBE: No, because we usually referred to each other as amaAfrika. I know one, Welcome. He was staying in a flat as well.
ADV BOSMAN: Do you know how they knew about going to the beach on that morning?
MR TEMBE: I think I knew because these were the things we usually discussed about. I think they knew about the date on the 9th, that we were supposed to go and assault whites.
ADV BOSMAN: But do you have any idea of how it came about that they knew?
MR TEMBE: I think Howmore told them.
ADV BOSMAN: And then when you went to the shop to obtain the knives, why did you remain outside, why did you not go in with the rest of the group?
MR TEMBE: They entered the shop in a big number, my intention was to go inside the shop, but then I met Howmore coming out from the shop and then I stopped there. He gave me a knife. Immediately after he gave me the knife, he started assaulting. At the same time a gunfire was shot and at that moment I was prepared to fight as well, I don't want to lie.
ADV BOSMAN: At what stage were you told that you were going to get the knives at the shop, and by whom?
MR TEMBE: It was not easy for us to be armed by firearms because we wanted to attack whites and firearms were going to make a noise and we were going to injure other people unintentionally, therefore we decided on knives.
ADV BOSMAN: No, that I understand. What I want to know is, how long before you went to the shop did you know that you were going to the shop to get the knives, and who told you that you were going to the shop to get knives?
MR TEMBE: I didn't take that decision, at that moment I thought we were just looking, not that we were going to take the knives at that moment. I thought that maybe we were going around looking for the knives, so that we could do this incident later in the day, but then it didn't happen that way. As they were entering the shop I thought maybe they were just looking for the knives, not that they were going to obtain them, 'cause I was thinking of another shop which is at the corner of Point Road, not that particular one. Therefore I would say I personally didn't know that at that moment they were going to fetch knives or who were going to fetch the knives.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you bring a knife from your home, it's nearby?
MR TEMBE: I would say at that moment I wasn't cooking in my flat, I didn't even have a knife at that time because I was buying take-aways and also it wasn't going to be easy for me to bring a knife for myself only. I thought maybe we were going to take the decision there as Africans. I personally thought of another shop which was at the corner of Point Road.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
ADV SIGODI: One thing that I'd like you to explain to me is, what was so significant about the 9th, why did you choose - do you know why you chose the 9th of October specifically for this attack?
MR TEMBE: I think there was a significant reason for us to choose the 9th, but I don't quite remember why, but I think it had to do with the oppression we were suffering. I think something happened on the 9th, of which I don't remember, therefore we decided that maybe we should also attack on the 9th.
ADV SIGODI: Because in the statement made by the victim, Ms Pearce, to the HRV, that is at page 40, that statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, referring to that statement, could we mark it Exhibit A.
ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.
In the middle paragraph, I think it's in the middle paragraph-
"Apparently what happened is that he gathered a lot of youths the night before the incident and he promised them food and a place to stay for the evening, but what was said during the trial was that there was a shop owner who was in the area, that had been told of the incident months before and he had circled it on his calendar and he knew that it was going to happen because this man had told him that they were going to do this. And he mentions that it was this Mr Ngcobo and I assume, Howmore Ngcobo, who was responsible for this. The youths at that time that carried out the attack with Mr Ngcobo, apparently had no knowledge of what they were going to do."
Do you know how long before this 9th this incident had been planned? For how long had this incident been planned?
MR TEMBE: As I've already mentioned, it had occurred for quite a long time before the incident itself.
ADV SIGODI: Hop long?
MR TEMBE: Maybe four months or five months, I'm not certain. Because this was something we used to discuss about, it's not something that we just decided on it and did it then. Like I've mentioned that Howmore was my friend and comrade, he used to come and stay over at my place.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know about the incident where Barend Strydom killed black people?
MR TEMBE: Yes, I do know.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know when that incident occurred?
MR TEMBE: I'm not certain but I think it was in 1988/'89, in Pretoria.
ADV SIGODI: And how soon after this incident did this planning of taking the violence to the white people take place? What was the time lapse between that incident and this one?
MR TEMBE: Our planning was not only about what Barend Strydom has done, but it went back a long way from the beginning when white settlers came to our country and took over our land and oppressed us. They destroyed everything ...(intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Ja, we know that, but it was mentioned by applicant number 1, that the incident by Barend Strydom also had an impact on this. I want to know from you what was the time difference between the Barend Strydom incident and this incident. What was the time lapse. Can you remember? Can you say or can you not say?
MR TEMBE: I wouldn't be able to give an estimation on the time lapse there because at that time my mind was not just on Barend Strydom, it was on our plan. I wouldn't be able to say when Barend Strydom killed people and when we took the decision to take the violence to whites. It's not like it was a retaliation, no.
ADV SIGODI: Alright, we'll leave that. Now you said whilst you were at the beach you did not discuss what you were going to do the following day because you already knew what was going to take place. Now the first applicant mentioned that there were prayers which were being held and the prayers were to strengthen you and to give you courage to be able to do what you were going to do the following day. Do you know anything about these prayers taking place?
MR TEMBE: Yes, he is telling the truth, we were praying, but not that in our prayer we mentioned that tomorrow we're going to wake up and we're going to do step one and two, we were there because we knew that the following day we were going to attack whites.
ADV SIGODI: Then what were you praying for?
MR TEMBE: We were praying for protection, that we as soldiers we should be protected and be protected by God. It was not a meeting.
ADV SIGODI: For God to protect you against what? What were you praying for, protection against what?
MR TEMBE: We prayed for God's protection because we wanted to win the war between whites and Africans.
ADV SIGODI: Okay, I won't take that matter any further. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Subject to what the evidence may be about the translation and if you want to return on that, you'll be able to recall him on that, if we're calling the Investigator, but apart from that I think he could be excused as a witness now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Any other witnesses you wish to call?
MS DE KLERK: No Mr Chairperson, not at this time.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any evidence?
MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Cele here perhaps?
MS MTANGA: I will have to go and find out, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes perhaps then we'll have to adjourn for five minutes so that you could find out, so that we can finish this one and start with the next one.
MS MTANGA: Yes, I will do so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We're adjourning for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: The application of Mr Sithole and Mr Tembe will now stand down. We'll decide whether the other witness will be available.
MATTER STANDS DOWN
