CHAIRPERSON: Today, being the 20th of January 1999, we will commence with the matter of Mr Xabiso Aaron Dingane, who is applying for amnesty in respect of the robbery committed in Grahamstown. Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to commence?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Honourable Chairperson and members of the Committee, we are ready to commence.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, will you please rise to take an oath?
XABISO AARON DINGANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dingane, is it correct that you were born on the 3rd of March 1958 in Port Elizabeth?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And during your arrest, you were staying at 148 Nyati Street, Motherwell?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you have two children, Nosipiwe and Sindiswa?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And they are currently staying with your mother, who is earning an old age pension?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you left school at standard 6?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you joined the PAC in 1976, under the leadership of Mr Dennis Siwisa?
MR DINGANE: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And that in 1981, you joined the Azanian National Youth Unit, which was the youth wing of the PAC?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1983, you received military training in Transkei?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, as has been indicated by the Honourable Chairperson, that you are applying for amnesty in respect of armed robbery in Mr Moss' farm in Grahamstown. Do you still recall the events of 1985, regarding this incident?
MR DINGANE: Yes, I do.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before we go to this incident Mr Dingane, am I correct to say that in that, during your arrest in that incident, you did not use your name Xabiso Aaron Dingane?
MR DINGANE: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee which name did you use?
MR DINGANE: Msimas Eric Puba.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Eric Puba?
MR DINGANE: Msimas Eric Puba.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then in your own words, tell the Committee the events which led to this incident, what actually happened? Who gave you an order to go and rob Mr Moss in Grahamstown?
MR DINGANE: Jabu Mdunge gave us the instructions. The Commander Unit at the time was Mbulelo Jacobs, who was also involved in the robbery.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you meet where you discussed this robbery?
MR DINGANE: We met at kwaZakhele, at a place called Maqanda.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What took place there at Maqanda, what happened? Tell the Committee?
MR DINGANE: We had a meeting, the Commander told us about this meeting, called us to a meeting, Commander Mbulelo.
He told us that there is a place that they had gone to check. They needed weapons and we were supposed to go to the same place and inspect or have a look at it, so that we can go and attack at a later stage.
There was a meeting thereafter. Two weeks after the meeting, we went to Grahamstown. When we arrived there, we stayed there in the township. At about half past twelve, we left for the farm. We arrived there at about between half past two and three o'clock.
We waited at the store room. We were hiding in the store room as we were waiting for the people to come and open. We were waiting for them to come and open up.
They came and opened the place. As we were still hiding there in the store room, they came to milk the cows.
As they were milking the cows, there were people who were coming to the store room to open the door of the store room. They came and fixed the machine that was in front of the store room. I grabbed these two people and I took them to the boss on the other side, where the people were milking the cows.
I had a bayonet and I told them to keep quiet. I collected the others who were also outside and I told them to come quickly. There was a meeting, I told them that we were there to convene a meeting, to discuss with the employer about a wage raise.
They came. As I was still collecting these people, Mbulelo and Mr Jacobs were with the other people. The white man, we tied the white man with a rope. We hit him with a garden spade at the back of his head.
We took him to the house. We were two, there were two of us. He was tied with a rope, with his hands tied at the back. When we got into the house, as we were coming in, we opened the door, the door was slightly open. I went, we went in. I had a bayonet. Mbulelo had a firearm.
We saw a woman in there and the woman screamed and he came to open the room and I told her to keep quiet as she was trying to open the room.
We demanded a firearm. She produced an (indistinct) rifle and a pistol, a 38 and a trunk with money, that is among the things that we were looking for.
In that process the helper ran away, escaped and ran away. The deceased tried to pursue the helper. He was, he found her outside the house and he brought her inside, back to the house.
When he brought this helper back to the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, may we be assisted. Mr Dingane is talking about the deceased having pursued the helper. Who is he referring to?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I was just going to stop him to tell us about who is the deceased?
MR DINGANE: Mbulelo Jacobs is the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you be kind enough for purposes of the record, just to refer to the deceased as Mbulelo Jacobs and not refer to him as the deceased, so that we don't have a mix up in our records.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dingane, can you also, adding to what the Chairperson has already indicated, tell us first, the Committee, how many people were involved in this robbery? It was yourself, Mbulelo Jacobs you have already mentioned, who else was involved?
MR DINGANE: It was myself, Mbulelo Jacobs, Mongezi Jacobs, Gibson Tsana. There were five of us and Msukezi was the fifth one.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then continue? What happened, he brought the woman who ran away, that is ...
MR DINGANE: Well, he brought the helper back to the house. In that milking place, we left Mbulelo in the shed. We left Mongezi and Gibson Tsana and Msukezi.
As we were busy in the house, the father of the gentleman that we had captured, came to the house. They hit him with a garden spade. He ran away and he escaped. He went to fetch the firearm, he came back again.
As we were trying to get out of the house, trying to take the car out of the store room, we saw a white man bleeding. He fired at us as we were in the car.
Mbulelo jumped and he drew his gun and he hit, he hit him on his chest and he fell. The people that were left in the shed, ran away.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, who drew the firearm?
MR DINGANE: It was Mbulelo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who did he shoot?
MR DINGANE: The father of this white man we had captured, came and went to the milking place. As we were in the house, the other comrades that were there, they hit him with a garden spade. He overpowered them, and he escaped and he went to fetch the firearm and he came back again.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, you have already told the Committee about that. We were at the stage where you said that you entered, you took a car, whilst you were inside the car, the old man was outside, bleeding and he shot at you, am I correct?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And then Mbulelo alighted from the car. what happened after Mbulelo alighted from the car?
MR DINGANE: He fired the first shot, this white man, the old man. The bullet penetrated the door of the car and Mbulelo was shot in the chest as he was trying to get out of the car.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what happened, continue?
MR DINGANE: He fell. I had a trunk with money inside. Everything that we took in that house, we left them there at the scene.
The three people who were there, had run away.
CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you removed from the house? You have mentioned the trunk, you have mentioned a few weapons. Can you specify the weapons that you removed from the house?
MR DINGANE: We took a pistol, a .38 and (indistinct) rifle, the old rifles and the trunk with money.
CHAIRPERSON: In your application you have mentioned that you took three firearms, now you are only mentioning two. Did you make a mistake in your application form?
MR DINGANE: Yes, I think that was a mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
MR DINGANE: We ran away. When I was running away, I met Msukezi next to the river, we crossed the river with Msukezi. Gibson Tsana and Mongezi, ran towards the tarred road. They were arrested in the morning because they went looking for lifts, that was in the morning.
ADV MOTATA: May I interrupt you Mr Dingane. What happened to the Toyota car, because you were in the car and Mbulelo got out of the car, what happened to the car, because now you are saying that you were running away?
Are you saying that you drove away in the car, or you got out of the car, and ran by foot? What is the position, I can't follow?
MR DINGANE: I ran on foot. I left the car.
ADV MOTATA: Because in your application you say we robbed the farm of three firearms and a car (Toyota). Did you leave the car behind?
MR DINGANE: Yes, we left the car behind.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When were you arrested Mr Dingane, at what stage were you arrested?
MR DINGANE: That was late, when we were asking for a lift to Port Elizabeth. There was a van that was parked next to the road, and the police came in that process.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, just going back to, you were arrested and you were eventually charged with this offence. If I am correct, you admitted to this offence, that you committed this offence and you told the Court what happened and that you planned this offence in a shebeen in Grahamstown.
Now you are telling the Committee that this was planned in Port Elizabeth, here in kwaZakhele and you were instructed by Jabu Mdunge. Can you tell the Committee, which is which?
MR DINGANE: At the time, we knew that there were hit-squads and we did not want to place the members of the organisation at risk, we did not want to place them at risk because we knew that our leaders were being assassinated.
We were trying to protect our leaders, that is why I put it that way in front of the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for you to mention that a discussion had taken place at a shebeen?
MR DINGANE: It is solely because I did not want to give them a clue to pursue, I did not want them to have any clue. I did not want to give them direction.
CHAIRPERSON: What direction would be given by saying you planned the robbery at a shebeen?
MR DINGANE: I did not want them to have knowledge, that this was done because we were fighting in the battle, the battle that was planned and we had some intentions to further our objectives as Africans.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you still proceeding in Mr Dingane's evidence in chief?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I still want to get more about this. What happened to the other robbers, the other people who were with you in the robbery, with the exception of Mbulelo, you have already indicated that he was shot and he died. What happened to the others?
MR DINGANE: They were arrested. All of us were arrested and we met at Le Grange in Port Elizabeth.
We attended the trial in Grahamstown. During the trial, I never appeared in court, I escaped.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where are the others now?
MR DINGANE: They are out of prison. They were sentenced, some were sentenced for 11 years and Jacobs was sentenced for 11 years, with two years suspended.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know whether they did apply for amnesty in respect of this matter?
MR DINGANE: I do not think so. The thing is, they no longer stay at the places where they used to stay.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they members of the PAC also themselves?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you have any knowledge whether they are still members of the PAC or participating in the activities of the PAC?
MR DINGANE: I haven't seen them for a long time, but I think they are still members of the PAC because Mongezi left Soweto and I heard that he was in Cape Town and the others left for Johannesburg.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, you have already indicated that you were instructed by Jabu Mdunge to commit this robbery. With the exception that you said that Jabu Mdunge was a trained cadre of PAC, what else do you want to tell this Committee that can, that would persuade them to say that what you did was politically motivated or was related to politics, that they should grant you amnesty regarding this matter?
MR DINGANE: As it is a well known fact and it is well known, concerning the situation prevailing at the time, the lives of the Africans and our land was taken in 1652, we were obliged to do something, to stand up as Africans and do something and try to claim our ancestor's land from the whites.
We had to shape our futures according to the way Africans wanted to.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to wrap up Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, Mr Dingane, I will take you that - I am looking at your record, I asked you in the previous incident, you indicated that you were once convicted of a car theft. Can you tell the Committee to whom did this car belong that you stole?
MR DINGANE: I do not know the owner of that car, whenever we take a car, we don't know anything about the owner.
MR MBANDAZAYO: You went to trial, definitely the complainant was there in court? Where was it, where did you steal the car, which place?
MR DINGANE: There is a car that we took here in Port Elizabeth, Newton Park.
The other car that we were using for a trip to Grahamstown, we got the car at Malapa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, I was still asking you about the one that you took in 1983, that you were convicted of in 1983.
MR DINGANE: We got the car at Algoa, Algoa Bay.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, just a final question, is it a coincidence that all your convictions starting from the one of, from 1969, 1983 and the recent one you are applying for amnesty, all are associated with dishonesty, is that a coincidence?
MR DINGANE: What do you mean if you mention coincidence, what do you mean?
MR MBANDAZAYO: What I am saying is that all your convictions for theft and also armed robbery, two armed robberies, are all related incidents, are almost similar incidents.
MR DINGANE: They are different incidents, they are not related. I would be convicted for car theft, not robbery. I will be charged for car theft sometimes, and robbery.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. If I may just for the record state that this applicant has already testified before this Committee, two days ago, in respect of another incident, and he was questioned at length about his political knowledge and his political affiliation.
May I request that that forms part of this record, and then it curtails my cross-examination extensively?
CHAIRPERSON: Definitely so.
MS PATEL: Then there is just one or two points, Honourable Chairperson.
You stated at court that you were under the influence of liquor when this offence was committed. Is that correct?
MR DINGANE: Yes, I made mention of that.
MS PATEL: Is it true?
MR DINGANE: I was sober, I was not under the influence of liquor.
MS PATEL: So why did you say that you were under the influence of liquor?
MR DINGANE: It is because as I have already mentioned, that at the time of this struggle, our leaders were assassinated and would be assassinated. I did not want anything that would put the organisation in danger, that would place the organisation in danger, and we knew very well that there were hit-squads and they would find a way to assassinate our leaders.
MS PATEL: But how did saying that you were under the influence of liquor, effect your concerns about the Unit?
MR DINGANE: As I am saying that I was sober, but I was just, I was misinforming them. I wanted them to believe something else, because I did not want this whole thing to effect the organisation because I know very well what was going to happen to our leaders at the time.
ADV MOTATA: Just explain to us Mr Dingane, what do you mean that you would have put the organisation in danger had you revealed your true purpose and again explain to us how would the leadership of your organisation, be jeopardised by that?
MR DINGANE: Mr Chairperson, the time was not yet ripe for us. After each and every attack, it was not yet ripe for us to claim and tell them, to claim responsibility, because if we did that, it was easy for our leaders to get killed, if we did claim the responsibility.
ADV MOTATA: But wasn't the PAC saying publicly that they are repossessing and if the leadership of PAC says it publicly that they are repossessing, how would that effect the leadership of the PAC because you would have been arrested robbing?
MR DINGANE: Will you please repeat your question sir?
ADV MOTATA: The PAC went on record that they were repossessing from the whites, land and movables and now you say when you were arrested, you did not want to divulge that you were robbing the farm because you were a PAC member, because you would have put the leadership in danger. The leader, that is the leadership of PAC.
I say since they have gone on record to say that they are repossessing, how were you going to put the PAC in danger, because that is public knowledge?
MR DINGANE: The actions that we were involved in, were underground. We were not prepared to go public about them.
I have mentioned that already, I said all this activities were activities that would be done in such a way that the government would remain in the dark as to our intentions, where we were going actually. Where we were going.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Ms Patel, you may continue.
MS PATEL: Mr Dingane, when was this Unit formed and was it a separate Unit that you testified to two days ago?
MR DINGANE: There is a Unit that was based in Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is when was the Unit that you have just testified to, formed?
MR DINGANE: It was formed in 1984.
MS PATEL: Under the command of?
MR DINGANE: It was Mbulelo.
MS PATEL: Okay. Was it early 1984, late 1984?
MR DINGANE: About in June 1984.
MS PATEL: What had you been doing in the Unit between that period and the period of this incident?
MR DINGANE: I was a soldier taking instructions from the Commander of the Unit, Mbulelo.
MS PATEL: What instructions were these?
MR DINGANE: It was to obey any order, any instruction to go to an operation.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, didn't I understand your question to be saying what did he do before he became a member of this Unit, prior to 1984?
MS PATEL: No, Honourable Chairperson, the question was, what was he doing from the period of June 1984 to this incident and his response was that he was taking instructions. I am now trying to - what was the nature of those instructions, can you be specific please?
MR DINGANE: The instructions about how to do the job if we were about to do a job, and how to do that particular job or operation.
MS PATEL: And you did for one and a half years?
MR DINGANE: I do not understand you when you say that I did that for one and a half years.
MS PATEL: You said that the Unit was formed in June of 1984. This incident occurred in December 1985, which leaves you with one and a half years?
MR DINGANE: December 1985, what happened, what do you mean? Will you please clarify that for me, I want to know what happened in December 1985.
MS PATEL: The incident to which you have just testified now, at the Moss farm for which you were arrested and subsequently convicted, occurred in December of 1985.
MR DINGANE: I did not know the date, I was not sure about the date of this incident.
MS PATEL: So my question remains, for one and a half years, all you did was prepare for operations, take instructions in terms of how to conduct an operation?
MR DINGANE: If you remember in 1985, the battle was hot. We were directing our battle to the white ruling class.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do if you did anything? Please don't tell us that we remember about, we are not here ...
MR DINGANE: We were attacking the police in the townships and the soldiers.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you attacking the police under the command of Mbulelo Jacobs?
MR DINGANE: Yes, including Mr Jabu Mdunge, he was also involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you must respond to Ms Patel's question and simply confine your responses to what has been posed to you.
What is your question Ma'am?
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel has not yet asked you a question. Wait for her to ask you a question and then respond.
MR DINGANE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: And confine your responses to her questions only.
MS PATEL: In these incidents with the police, was anybody injured?
MR DINGANE: I was shot at.
MS PATEL: You were shot at?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: And when was this?
MR DINGANE: It was in 1985.
MS PATEL: Did you operate as a Unit during these times?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: Can you try to be more specific about these run-ins with the police, where exactly did this take place and when and how many times?
MR DINGANE: We would attack police and soldiers at Soweto township during the state of emergency.
They would also fight back. I cannot really count how many times, because it was during the time when Mr Botha, President Botha had declared a state of emergency, so it was, we were at war and I cannot really count.
MS PATEL: Let me ask you this, why did it take so long from the inception of the Unit in 1984, for you to conduct your first major operation if you were an organised Unit, you say that you were trained, I am sure that Jabu was trained. Why did it take so long, instead of getting involved with running battles with the police in a disorganised fashion?
MR DINGANE: First of all, the police were there at the time. They were killing in our township and they were doing anything. We were forced to take our arms, our weapons and go and fight. That was our way of taking place in our struggle, in our armed struggle.
We wouldn't sit down and fold arms. That was a civilised manner to fight the police. We wouldn't be here today in this Truth Commission, if we did not take those steps, if that was not civilised. I believe that was a civilised manner as a person who was oppressed and who wanted to be freed.
MS PATEL: My question to you again, Mr Dingane, is why did it take one and a half years before your Unit became involved in an operation to repossess?
MR DINGANE: The reason for that, we wanted to organise weapons. We were trying by all means that we should get weapons from the farmers or we would go and buy arms in the former Transkei or Ciskei.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say you were trying by all means to obtain weapons from the farmers? Are you saying that your Unit was involved in repossessing arms from farmers from 1984 until December 1985 when you were involved in the Moss incident?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, can you just enumerate the various weapons you obtained from which operations between 1984 and November 1985?
MR DINGANE: Some of the weapons are those that I mentioned in the statements, and others, we would buy them anywhere.
CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you have mentioned no weapons. In your statement and in your viva voce evidence, you have only mentioned the two weapons you have obtained from the Moss farm.
You had earlier on said your Unit was not active in any of the operations that would have achieved the repossessive objective of the PAC from 1984 to November 1985. We are trying to understand what you mean when you now say your Unit has been involved in these operations from 1984 until the Moss incident? Can you tell us of the operations that your Unit was involved in?
MR DINGANE: We had no one to supply us with arms, we had to go and look for arms. We had to think fast before we could obtain firearms, we would go and buy them in the former Transkei or Ciskei.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, please understand my question. Your evidence is that your Unit was involved in repossessing arms from the farmers. You were a Repossession Unit.
Now you have already said that your Unit tried by all means to repossess weapons from farmers, from 1984 until November 1985. This excludes the Moss or the Grahamstown incident.
We want to know what operations your Unit was involved in because you say that you were involved in such activities. You were repossessing weapons from farms as a Unit and as a Repossession Unit.
MR DINGANE: Some of the activities are those of attacking the soldiers in the townships, and the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you not a Unit established for purposes of repossessing weapons from farmers. That is what you have testified to.
MR DINGANE: Yes, Ma'am, that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Now can you tell us what operations you undertook in that capacity between 1984 to November 1985?
MR DINGANE: We were involved mostly in the townships, shooting at the police and soldiers. If we ran short of bullets, we would go and repossess from the farmers, and come back and fight in the townships.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say you were involved in activities, which involved the police, that was not the objective for which your Unit was formed? Your evidence has been plainly that your Unit was formed to repossess weapons from farmers. How can you be involved in something that is not part of the activities of your Unit?
MR DINGANE: The situation prevailing at that time, was forcing us to do anything in the process of repossessing arms, as a Repossession Unit, we had to fight at the same time.
We wouldn't fold arms whereas our people would be dying, killed by the police and soldiers on the other hand. We wouldn't look, watch that situation where people were dying like flies.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that there were Assault Units and Repossess Units? Are you aware that we have already had, are you aware that this Committee has already been given a pregnant submission by the military wing of the PAC about the various structures and that we are aware that there was a Repossession Unit and we are aware of the objectives for which that Unit was established.
We are aware that there were Assault Units and the functions of those Units. Are you telling us that your Unit was an ill-disciplined Unit which was operating outside the objectives for which it had been formed?
MR DINGANE: It is not that it was ill-disciplined. It was disciplined, but the conditions prevailing at the time, was forcing us to do something, to take weapons and go and fight.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you obtain the weapons that you took to fight the police?
MR DINGANE: We would buy them in the former Transkei and Ciskei and we would rob other firearms from the farmers.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an instance, one instance, wherein you robbed a farmer of weapons between 1984 to November 1985?
MR DINGANE: We robbed arms at Veeplaas in Mr Smith's hotel. We got an R1 there.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you operating as a Unit when that offence was committed?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Why have you not disclosed that information to support your application for amnesty, to show that at all times, you were operating for purposes of the objectives for which your Unit had been established?
MR DINGANE: First of all, we did not get information before submitting our application forms. We were not informed that we should mention other incidents that took place in other places. We did not receive that information in jail, that we should mention things that were not in the record.
We were not provided with that correspondence, so the TRC failed dismally in that question.
CHAIRPERSON: Your legal representative asked you a question during your evidence in chief, about the offences that you had committed, and he even commented that your offences amounted to dishonesty.
Why did you not divulge that there were other offences that you had committed which were very politically related like the Smith incident?
MR DINGANE: As I have already mentioned that the TRC did not give us information that says that we should mention things that we did in the past, that did not appear in our record.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, but I am saying today, your legal representative asked you about the offences that you had committed and enumerated the offences that you had committed.
He even committed that they would seem to appear to amount to dishonesty, why did you not then disclose to him during your evidence in chief, that there were other offences which you had committed, which were politically motivated? Why did you not do that?
MR DINGANE: I do not remember hearing him saying that there is some dishonesty. Maybe I did not get that.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Patel, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with Mr Dingane.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, you will recall when you gave evidence two days ago, that you stated that you also belonged to a Unit that was formed in 1987.
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And that that Unit was also a Repossession Unit?
MR DINGANE: It was an Assault Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: It was an Assault Unit, yes. Can you explain why you had to belong to two different Units?
MR DINGANE: First of all, the Soweto township and Veeplaas is one place. They are neighbouring places.
As the Soweto Unit was under Mbulelo, there was that contact as members of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain why you had to belong to two different Units, the Assault Unit and the Repossession Unit?
MR DINGANE: After our Commander was shot, I went to the Unit at Veeplaas.
CHAIRPERSON: Which Commander are you referring to, who was shot?
MR DINGANE: Mbulelo.
CHAIRPERSON: You went to the Veeplaas Unit because your Commander had been shot, is that the reason that you are advancing?
MR DINGANE: No. I did not go there for that reason, I got instructions from my Commander that I must be in that Unit, Veeplaas Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: When were you instructed, your Commander was shot in what year, in 1984, is that not so?
MR DINGANE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And when were you then ordered by your Commander to go to the Veeplaas Unit? Immediately thereafter?
MR DINGANE: Immediately after he was shot.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Immediately thereafter? So you then became a member of the Assault Unit in 1984? Are you saying Mbulelo Jacobs was shot in 1984?
MR DINGANE: No, he was shot during the operation in 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: 1985? So you became a member of the Veeplaas Unit in 1985?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you are sure of this?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you know that you have to tell the truth to this Committee in order for your application to succeed?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Two days ago you gave evidence before this Committee that you only became a member of that Unit in 1987, do you recall that?
MR DINGANE: No, what happened was this. As this was happening in 1985, I was still a soldier when I was sent there.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't care about you being a soldier. I am saying in your evidence you stated that you became a member of the Veeplaas Unit in 1987. You couldn't have been a member of that Unit prior to 1987, because in your evidence you stated that that Unit was only established in 1987?
Yet today you say you were ordered to become a member of that Unit in 1984, shortly after your Commander had been shot.
MR DINGANE: He was shot in 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is my mistake. You were ordered to become a member of the Veeplaas Unit in 1985, yet in your evidence you state that that Unit was only formed in 1987 and you became a member thereof and a Commander for that matter, of that Unit in 1987.
MR DINGANE: You see Ma'am, it is like this, I went to stay at Veeplaas, I was sent there to stay there. As I was leaving Soweto, I escaped from the prison. That is one of the things that led me to leave Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: My simple question is, how can you be ordered to become a member of a Unit which was not in existence in 1985? If I were to take my statement further, even Mr Wanga confirmed or testified that that Unit came - don't interrupt me, I am still talking, Mr Wanga testified that that Unit in Veeplaas came into existence in 1987? Now you can respond.
MR DINGANE: In 1985, I went to Veeplaas, that Unit was not yet established. I would request Chairperson, I want to say that I am not getting a good nutrition where I am staying, if you spend something like five years in prison, you end up suffering from nervous breakdown, therefore I want to request this Committee to understand that there is a change in one's psychological set up and physical set up, the prison is effecting us.
I don't think that is a point that we can spend more time on it, because technical mistakes do happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you conceding that you lied when you said that the Unit, you became a member of that Unit in 1985? I want to understand what you are saying?
MR DINGANE: No, I went to stay at Veeplaas, the Unit was not yet in existence. Due to some, I went there for protection reason. The Unit was established in 1987.
There was a misunderstanding, the way you posed your question, there was a misunderstanding between the two of us as you were asking that question.
CHAIRPERSON: So are you in fact saying you did not become a member of that Unit in 1985?
MR DINGANE: I mean at Veeplaas.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Dingane?
ADV MOTATA: Just one, other that Mbulelo and yourself, were the other gentlemen trained as well, for instance Mongezi, Gibson and Msukezi?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: Where were they trained and when?
MR DINGANE: They were trained in the former Transkei homeland.
ADV MOTATA: Where?
MR DINGANE: At Kentani Tabolefefe.
ADV MOTATA: In which year, the same time as yourself?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: That is where you met actually, in other words?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: Where were they resident prior to your going to Grahamstown?
MR DINGANE: Gibson Tsana was residing at Grahamstown. Mongezi was in Soweto. We were residing at different places. Gibson Tsana was in Grahamstown, Mongezi in Soweto and one of them was in kwaZakhele at Maqanda Street in the squatter camp there.
ADV MOTATA: You know Mr Dingane, you mention names. I asked you about the names you gave me, Msukezi, not the other one, I just want to know those you mentioned and I mentioned them by name.
The one who is now remaining is Msukezi.
MR DINGANE: I mentioned Msukezi as I was being asked by the people, as I was asked about my co-accused, but I do not know the surname, I have forgotten the surname.
ADV MOTATA: The name suffices, where did he stay? I am not saying remember the surname, I am simply saying where did he stay?
MR DINGANE: He was residing, there is a squatter camp next to Umgababa, he was staying there.
ADV MOTATA: So were they trained in the same tactics as you were?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Just one question Chairperson, thank you. Do you know the name Matata Kitzane?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
ADV BOSMAN: Do you know the name Matata Kitzane?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Where does this name come from, whose name is it?
MR DINGANE: This is the other name that I was using when I was arrested.
ADV BOSMAN: Why were you using all these various names?
MR DINGANE: It is sometimes that it would just come, you would try not to give your name, your real name.
ADV BOSMAN: But why, you were only 11 years old when you used this name?
MR DINGANE: Yes, it is because I did not want my name to be dragged in the bad records, into the bad records in future.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call further witnesses in support of Mr Dingane's application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, just before I answer that, I have no witness to call, but I would like the Committee to give me ...
CHAIRPERSON: I will give you an opportunity to re-examine, I just wanted to know.
MR MBANDAZAYO: No witness Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No witness will be called? Can you proceed then. Do you want to be given an opportunity?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it is just one point, I want just for the sake of we are all involved in an enquiry here, just for the sake of truth, I want to come, there is just one point I want to raise with him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you want to re-examine?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Mr Dingane, you have been asked by the Committee about the Unit, you told the Committee about the Unit in Soweto, can you tell the Committee the members, all the members of that Unit, who was the members of that Unit?
MR DINGANE: Mongezi Jacobs, Mbulelo Jacobs, Gibson Tsana, Msukezi and myself.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: You are now closing your case, Mr Mbandazayo, I take it?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to address us?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to do so.
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would - I am not going to address you on this, but I would raise just a few points in order for the Committee to be able to reach a fair decision on this matter.
Chairperson, if it was in court, I would say I would leave it in your hands, that is what I am trying to say, but I would like to ...
CHAIRPERSON: You can still say that even here Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I would like to raise just a few points regarding this incident. Chairperson, the Committee has raised rightfully so that the PAC has made certain submissions with regard to the military wing, APLA and as such also myself, I am aware also of that, that is why I am saying that sometimes it puts me in a very difficult position.
It means sometimes I have to argue against those submissions, when the evidence comes here, which is of course, it cannot be the purpose of this enquiry, because all of us we are not defending anybody, we are here, involved in an enquiry, assisting the applicants to get to the root of what actually happened.
The reason that I am saying that I want to raise these points, Chairperson, I want to confirm because I have been involved in almost all of the PAC cases, that Assault and Repossession Units are totally different issues.
Most of the time, permission has to be sought if an Assault Unit is to be involved in the Repossession Unit and vice versa and authority be given to that effect.
I had a case of that nature, which that had happened in Bloemfontein. Also Chairperson, on this point which has been raised about other incidents where people are not in jail for that, that the Committee did not do its work to advise applicants to apply. Chairperson, also I want to highlight that point because most of the applicants who applied, are not in jail, they have applied for incidents which they have not yet been charged for.
One which is going to appear here, nobody knew what actually happened, like Silimela Ngesi, there was never a trace, but he applied for that incident, which was the purpose of the whole exercise. It was not to get people outside jail, but was to get the truth as to what happened in the past.
Chairperson, the last point I want to raise was with regard to the incident itself, which involved farmers.
Chairperson, it is known, also members of the Committee, that it has been the policy of the PAC and APLA that APLA, that farmers were known as one pillars, also the bastions and minions as how they put it, of apartheid.
They categorised it in the ranks of the South African Defence and South African Police, and homes of the whites were known as garrisons of apartheid.
The point I am trying to raise is that Chairperson, the farmers was a target and one would have expected that it is only an Assault Unit which will go there, because they were also being attacked.
If I may quote that farmers, as they belong to Commando structures, over and above the fact that they occupied farms, which we would have to drive them away from, as to widen our territorial base, which was aimed at eventually consolidated and liberated and repossess land.
So in that it is clear that, and almost in all the cases that one who goes there, will not only repossess, but because they have to be driven away because of the policy of the PAC, that they occupied the lands which belonged to the African people, it won't only be repossession. It was not a sin to kill them.
In most of the incidents which involved farmers, it is clear the Committee can bear me out, most of them, there was no repossession, it was just an attack on them. They were also burnt down, the farmers.
Those were the points I wanted to highlight Chairperson. As I indicated that I will leave it in your hands, this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?
ADV MOTATA: Before you do so and you see, our present case which you have left in our hands, none of what you said obtained.
For instance burning down, just getting the arms probably and escaping with the little money that would be there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that is just why I am saying that for the benefit of the Committee, I wanted to raise because I am in a predicament in some of these issues, because they seem as if there as I am involved in these hearings, they almost contradict the position which have been given to myself by the PAC, which puts me in a very difficult position now, because those were not my instructions, I have been given documents to that effect and most of the material to use, were cases of this nature.
It puts me in a very difficult position.
CHAIRPERSON: We really appreciate the issues that you have just spelt out Mr Mbandazayo. We have been given what we consider to be a very pregnant submission by both the PAC and APLA.
I must say we are greatly indebted to your apt address which has really rendered great assistance to this Committee in defining the issues.
Ms Patel?
MS PATEL IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I am most certainly ad idem with my learned friend here. It is my respectful submission that this incident for which this applicant applies, was criminally motivated.
He clearly does not meet with any of the requirements of the Act. I respectfully request that his application be denied.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel and Mr Mbandazayo, this Committee will be able to pronounce its decision tomorrow morning. Fortunately Mr Mbandazayo will still be here proceeding with the other applications set down for this week.
We don't think that it is necessary for the applicant to be here because you will be representing their interest and we will be in a position to immediately inform them of the decision of this Committee. This matter is now concluded.
WITNESS EXCUSED
