CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, can we proceed with the next matter?
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, the next matter is that of Silimela Ngesi, application number 6020/97.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to commence Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, we are in a position to commence, may the applicant be sworn in Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What are your full names, can you please rise? What are your full names?
MR NGESI: Silimela Ngesi.
CHAIRPERSON: Ququmbana, is that your other name or surname?
MR NGESI: That is the surname that appears in my ID.
CHAIRPERSON: For purposes of this application and for purposes of your conviction, what are you known as Ngesi or Ququmbana?
MR NGESI: I used both. I used both Ngesi and Ququmbana. If the police were using Ngesi, I was going to use Ququmbana in my case.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
SILIMELA NGESI (QUQUMBANA): (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You have been duly sworn, you can take a seat.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ngesi, do you confirm that the affidavit which is in front of you and also which is before the Honourable members of the Committee, was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?
MR NGESI: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, and Honourable members of the Committee, just to facilitate, it is a short affidavit, I will read it into the record.
CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.
ADV MOTATA: Why shouldn't we give it a number first, because we've got a bundle and say probably B.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
The affidavit reads, I the undersigned Silimela Ngesi do hereby make an oath and say that I am the applicant in the petrol depot operation. The facts to which I depose, are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the contents state otherwise.
I was born on the 14th of June 1968 in kwaNobuhle township, Uitenhage. We are a family of five and my mother is a divorcee and a breadwinner. I left school at standard 7 in 1986 due to financial difficulties.
I have one child who is staying with my family. I joined PAC through AZANYU in 1984. In 1985, I joined the underground structure of APLA and in 1987, I left the country via Lesotho to Tanzania.
I underwent military training in Tanzania and Uganda. In Uganda I received training in infantry. I came back from Uganda to Tanzania in 1989 and I worked at the Logistics Department.
In 1992, I was deployed inside the country and I was appointed as a Unit Commander. I am currently serving 69 years in St Alberts prison for the Wesselsbron operation.
I was part of APLA Unit which attacked the petrol depot, Westbank, East London, next to the camp of the South African Defence Force in August 1993.
In respect of this operation, I received instructions from comrade Bulelani Quma, the Director of Special Operations.
We were a Special Unit which belonged to Special Operations. I was tasked to do the reconnaissance for two weeks and I was staying in Mdantsane at NU3 at that time.
After I finalised the reconnaissance, we decided to execute the mission. We were a Unit of four and I was the Commander of the Unit. It was myself, Msito, Lunga and Sbu. I was armed with R4 rifle, Msito with AK47, Lunga was the driver, unarmed, and Sbu was armed with R5 and we also had RPG7, two rocket launchers, which were to be used in the operation.
The arms came from Transkei and were sent to me by comrade Quma. We used a car to the petrol depot, and we arrived there, around 9 o'clock in the evening.
When we arrived at the target, we took the RPG7 out of the car and one rocket launcher, and I loaded it in order for Msito to shoot the target.
Msito did shoot the target, but the petrol tank did not explode and we retreated to Mdantsane. On our way to Mdantsane, at Oxford Street, East London, we met members of the South African Police and they stopped us. I ordered Lunga the driver, to stop and Msito to get out of the car and shoot.
Thereafter a shoot-out ensued in Oxford Street until they lost sight of us, and we went to Mdantsane. I do not know whether there are any policemen who were killed or injured in the ensuing shoot-out.
On my arrival at Mdantsane, I phoned the Director of Special Operations and informed him of what happened and told him that we were safe.
The following day I went to Umtata to give the return report of the operation. The purpose of the operation was to cripple the economy of the settler minority regime, which we were fighting to bring it down.
The South African Police and South African Defence Force, we regarded them as bastions and minions of the apartheid regime, and therefore a legitimate target wherever we met them during the apartheid era.
I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the petrol depot operation.
I therefore humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted. Signed by the applicant on this 20th day of January 1999.
Chairperson, that is the evidence for the applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the affidavit that has been read by your legal representative, Mr Ngesi?
MR NGESI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You do not wish to lead further evidence Mr Mbandazayo, I take it?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I am not intending to lead further evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, before I proceed, perhaps my learned friend could place on record which specific offences the applicant is making application for.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the one which he mentioned as serving 69 years for Wesselsbron operation, is a part-heard matter, we have done it in Bloemfontein where the Chairperson was Judge Wilson, we have not yet finalised it.
Then the second one is this one, the petrol depot.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the sentence in respect of the one for which he is seeking amnesty today?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, he was never arrested for this matter. He was never arrested for this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I wanted to help my learned friend, I think the application revolves around the attack at petrol depot and the ensuing shoot-out with the police. That is what he was involved in, thank you.
MS PATEL: So it is the attack on the petrol depot and the attack on the police? Is that all?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.
MS PATEL: That is what I sought clarity on, thank you. You stated Mr Ngesi, in paragraph 9 that you used a vehicle in this operation. Where did you get this vehicle from?
MR NGESI: The car was sent from Umtata. But according to what I know, I think it was taken in Queenstown to Umtata and then from Umtata to us.
It was stolen there.
MS PATEL: Sorry I didn't get the last, did you say it was a stolen vehicle?
MR NGESI: Yes.
MS PATEL: But you weren't involved in that, in the stealing of that vehicle?
MR NGESI: No, I was not involved.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: You say that the car was stolen from Umtata? Queenstown? Who gave it to you? Who brought the car to you for this operation?
MR NGESI: Lunga brought the car.
CHAIRPERSON: And the weapons that you used, where were these obtained?
MR NGESI: They were from Umtata, they were sent to me. I was in East London.
MS PATEL: Who at Umtata sent the weapons to you?
MR NGESI: It was Sidi.
CHAIRPERSON: What was his position?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the record Chairperson, I am the person who put the real name there, I am the person when the TRC wanted to investigate the matter in June, I found out that he is Sipho Bulelo Quma, they call him Sidi, he has got various names.
CHAIRPERSON: That is his code name?
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is his code name. He did not know the real name of him. He knows him as Sidi, so I was told that he was a Deputy Director of Operations, and he also confirmed it also, himself.
He was also the Deputy Director of Operations, next to Lethlapa Mpahlele was second in command.
CHAIRPERSON: I was going to find out because I know Mr Mpahlele to have been the Director of Special Operations. Was he second in command to Mr Mpahlele?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, he was a Director of Operations, Lethlapa Mpahlele.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And Sipho Quma, Director of Special Operations, so all of them, though he was a Director of Special Operations, he was also Deputy Director of Operations. All of them were falling under the Director of Operations.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for making that explicit. It was a little bit confusing.
So he is the one who provided the weapons and the vehicle that was used for this operation, is that correct Mr Ngesi?
MR NGESI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ngesi?
ADV MOTATA: None Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: May I just have a word with you Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, when you check bundle A, page 6, there is a statement which was obtained from the police and we would like to get clarity from you whether that statement is in relation to the attack on the petrol depot.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Correct Chairperson, it is in relation with that. I happened also to talk to the policemen who was ...
CHAIRPERSON: And the ensuing shoot-out that occurred?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We just wanted to find out if you have applied your mind to the fact that there might also be a possibility of charges of attempted murder and other related offences?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Which are for possession of arms and ammunition?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and malicious injury to property? Have you applied your mind in respect of those possible offences being brought against Mr Ngesi?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Chairperson, I have looked at the matter Chairperson, all the issues involved. Hence his application and also that initially we did not know, I was not even aware that this matter will be today heard.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I received this documents here, but Chairperson, as you see in the affidavit, he indicates that he is not aware whether somebody was injured or killed in the process.
We are not aware of that, so hence we said that we are applying for what happened during the ensuing shoot-out at the petrol depot, and what happened during the ensuing shoot-out.
CHAIRPERSON: Having gone through the statement, having gone through the police statement, shouldn't you probably reconsider supplementing the acts for which amnesty is being sought unless you do not agree with the statement from the police?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, we might if the Committee can give me some time and I can have a chat with the applicant and look.
CHAIRPERSON: We would recommend you do that and pay particular attention to page 6 and the fourth paragraph, which is the last paragraph, which is paragraph nine and also pay particular attention to page 7.
Just read the statement obtained from the police and apply your mind whether you should not probably include other related acts in Mr Ngesi's application.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We will afford you an opportunity to go through the statement that we have referred to and we will then reconvene after five minutes. Will that be okay?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will adjourn for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
SILIMELA NGESI (QUQUMBANA): (still under oath)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, at this stage the applicant would like to re-open his case, and lead further evidence on certain aspects of his application. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: On what basis are you making that kind of an application Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, on the basis that the applicant at the time of the incident, he was not aware that there were people injured and that property was damaged as a result of what happened on the day in question.
Now it has come to his attention that certain policemen and certain buildings were damaged during the ensuing shoot-out after the attack at the depot.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well in view of the fact that this information has recently become available to both you and the applicant and the applicant has just become aware of the statement made by the police, we will allow you to re-open your case in order to lead that kind of evidence.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ngesi, as you have already testified that after your attack at the petrol depot at Westbank in East London, you met police at Oxford Street and after you met the police, a shoot-out ensued.
Now, can you tell the Committee, is it possible that during the shoot-out, somebody was injured, was shot and injured?
MR NGESI: Yes, that is possible. That is possible because we were shooting at each other, although I didn't notice or I didn't see anybody, but that is possible.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also possible that during the shoot-out, also some of the bullets from your rifles might have hit the buildings in the street and also a motor vehicle in that street?
MR NGESI: Yes, that is also possible because our car was running away and the police were chasing us. Anything can happen, buildings might be struck. That is possible, but our aim was not to shoot the building, it was to shoot at the police.
That is possible.
MR MBANDAZAYO: A policeman by the name of Roy Robertson has made a statement to the effect that a certain policeman, Mr Oosthuizen, was injured, was shot during that ensuing shoot-out, what do you say about that?
MR NGESI: I would not dispute or deny that. It is possible that during a shoot-out somebody might injure. Our aim was to, if there was somebody who was shot, maybe to be killed, but I just heard today that somebody was injured.
They wanted to arrest us, so we were avoiding arrest. We didn't want them to arrest us. We just wanted to do what we did and then leave and go back to where we came from.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, are you also then applying for amnesty for the attempted murder and also malicious damage to property?
MR NGESI: Please repeat your question sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, in view of this latest information that an attempt was made in somebody's life and somebody was injured and also that property was damaged, buildings and motor vehicles were damaged, do you also apply for amnesty for that in light of that new information?
MR NGESI: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: On page 7 Mr Mbandazayo, there is also damage to an R5 rifle?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ngesi, also it is clear that during the shoot-out, you also shot an R5 rifle of a policeman and it was damaged as a result of that, the R5 which belonged to Sergeant Oosthuizen.
MR NGESI: I didn't know that. It is my first time to hear that, but that was expected, even though I didn't hear about it.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also apply for amnesty in respect of that incident, damage to that R5 rifle?
MR NGESI: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also Mr Ngesi apply for amnesty in respect of possession of the various weapons and ammunition that you possessed on the day as you indicated in your affidavit, that is you were carrying R4 rifle, R5, RPG7 and two rocket launchers and also an AK47?
MR NGESI: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel, do you wish to put any questions in relation to the evidence that has been led?
MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngesi, when you fired at the police, did you foresee that any of them might be injured and even be killed as a result of you shooting at them?
MR NGESI: I wanted them to die, but I didn't hear that any of them died. I didn't want them to be injured, I wanted them to die.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ngesi?
ADV MOTATA: None Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: None Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I wish to confirm Mr Mbandazayo, that Mr Ngesi has not been charged for the acts for which he is applying for amnesty? He is volunteering this information in terms of the TRC process as a disciplined MK soldier and as advised by the organisation to come forward and disclose? Sorry, as a disciplined APLA cadre, I am sorry about that. As a disciplined APLA cadre, as he was advised to do so by his organisation. Am I correct?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, you are correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo and Ms Patel, thank you very much for the assistance you have rendered to this Committee in respect of the two matters that we have heard this morning.
The Committee will adjourn now and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock. Remember there is a matter which is standing down, the Stemele and the Mali matter which is due to commence at 2 o'clock.
This Committee will be able to give its decision in respect of the two matters it has heard this morning, tomorrow morning, that is the matter of Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga as well as the matter of Mr Ngesi (Ququmbana).
Thank you very much. We will adjourn now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
