ON RESUMPTION: CHAIRPERSON: We now come to the applications of Mr Nyamezele Ndingane and Mr Lulamile Steven Baleka. The Committee remains the same, Judges Wilson, Miller and Motata. The applicant's legal adviser, will he please put himself on record?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Thabile Thabethe, Evidence Leader, TRC. Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the first applicant will be Lulamile Steven Baleka, he will be the first one to testify and he's Xhosa speaking, also may he be sworn in Chairperson?
LULAMILE STEVEN BALEKA: (sworn states)
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, is it correct that you were born on the 12th of February 1956 in Port Elizabeth?
MR BALEKA: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far did you go at school?
MR BALEKA: Standard eight.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC and who recruited you into PAC?
MR BALEKA: I join PAC in 1971. I was recruited by Comrade Bonakele Filita.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And when did you become a member of APLA?
MR BALEKA: I joined APLA in 1991.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join APLA?
MR BALEKA: In the Transkei, in Lusikisiki, in the Transkei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Under whose command were you in Lusikisiki?
MR BALEKA: Under Ace's command.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, just before we come to the incident, is it correct that you also have some previous convictions?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee briefly about your previous convictions?
MR BALEKA: Sir, from the time when I joined PAC in 1971, I was used as a courier. The organisations at that time were banned and at the same time we were trying to be disciplined PAC members following the policy of the PAC, but at that time there was no work, the work was scarce and there were things that we did, even though the PAC was giving us the correct guidance to follow its policy but we did some things on the side and the previous convictions were caused by the time that we were - by the situation that we were under.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Baleka, can we come then to this incident? Can you tell the Committee about your unit, members of your unit and who was the Commander of your unit and to whom the Commander was reporting?
JUDGE MOTATA: Before you answer that question, where did you join the PAC? Where, in which town?
MR BALEKA: The Pan Africanist Congress, I joined it in Port Elizabeth in New Brighton area under Comrade Bonakele Filita.
JUDGE MOTATA: Do you remember the month when you joined the PACE here in Port Elizabeth?
MR BALEKA: If I'm not mistaken, it was the first month of the year, that is January in 1971.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then, Mr Baleka, tell the Committee as I indicated about the structure of your unit, who was the Commander and to whom the Commander was reporting?
MR BALEKA: I was a Commander of my unit and it composed of six members and I was reporting to Comrade Mzukisi Nazo, that is his pseudonym and I found out later that he is Xhumiso Nongcuba, that is the person I was report to.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson if the Committee will remember, Xhumiso Nongcuba passed away in a car accident, I think it was 1996. He's the one who was involved in the St James incident, Heidelberg Tavern and also Golf Club. He has been mentioned in many of the APLA cases.
Can you then proceed about the composition of ...
MR BALEKA: Members - it was comrade Samora, his real name is Nyamesa Tengane, the one sitting next to me and there was also Comrade Ngruma, that is also his pseudonym, his real name is Joey Mshweshwe and Comrade Tongongara, his real name is Stanley Mtetejana and there was also Comrade Gadafe, his real name is Waga Gebengana, Comrade Mabutwa, those were members of my unit and I was the Commander of that unit.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell about your target? How did you come to the conclusion that Nedbank is the target and who came up with the idea and how it was planned that the mission would be carried out.
MR BALEKA
"In November 1993 I was contacted by my Commander, Comrade Mzukisi Nazo whose real name is Xhumiso Nongcuba. When he contacted me, he told me about the target in Uitenhage. He gave me details and I found out that target he was referring to was the Nedbank in Caledon Street. He gave me instructions that I was the one who was appointed to go and reconnoitre the place in Uitenhage.
The following day I went to Uitenhage. I arrived at about ten to eight in Uitenhage in the morning. I saw the target as I was given directions by Comrade Mzukisi Nazo. I was sitting across the street, I was hanging around across the street under the trees next to the target.
After eight o'clock on the corner next to Bradlows Furnishers, a white lady appeared on that corner. She then went near to the door of Nedbank. She opened her handbag, took out the keys, opened the bank and then she went in and then she closed the door after she went in. After a few minutes another lady also came. She knocked at the door of the bank and then the door was opened from inside. She went in and then she also closed the door. At about ten past eight again another person came. That person also knocked and the door was opened and then it was closed after that person went in. I noticed that every time when a person comes I thought that those people were the staff members of the bank and each and every one of them would knock from the outside and then the door would be opened from the inside and then the person would go in and the door will be closed.
I counted these people and I found out they were about fourteen, all of them, until the bank was opened at about nine o'clock and again I think a guy, who was a security guard wearing navy trousers and a powder blue shirt, also went in and then he opened the bank for the public, that was nine o'clock. I noted that the bank was opened and people went in with bags of money, others with suitcases, so I realised that the bank was opened for its services.
I hung around until six people went inside. After those people went in, I also followed and went inside the bank to observe the situation inside. What I noticed inside the bank, is that when you are outside, you cannot see inside because of the curtains of the bank, so when I went inside I realised that there were a lot of tellers inside the bank, more than ten tellers and there were people that were already inside that were being served by the staff. I noticed that money from the bag was taken out and they were put in the drawers of the tellers, so I realised that there was something under those tellers, maybe they were drawers or money savers. I then realised again that when you are inside you can see clearly on the outside, so I observed what was happening inside until my turn to go to the teller, that was a white young lady. I took out two R50 notes asking for small change. This lady gave me this change, the one rands, two rands. She put that money in Nedbank plastic bags. I took this change from her. I then left the target. I went back to Port Elizabeth.
When I arrived in Port Elizabeth, I consulted my Commander, Comrade Mzukisi Nazo. I reported my findings concerning the reconnaissance to him. After reporting to my Commander, my Commander also said that the situation was like I was telling him in that bank. He wanted to know from me as I went there to reconnoitre the place, he wanted to know how we were going to execute the mission there. I told him according to my reconnaissance that I saw, I think that six people will be okay to go and execute the mission on the target and again, we had to use small firearms on that target because the position of the target, it is situated in a very busy place and there are a lot of passers by and a lot of tourists around, so when my Commander asked me why I thought that using small firearms would be okay, I gave him that reason, that that target is situated in a busy place, so if we were going to use the rifles, those rifles would not be okay because we can be able to shoot the small firearms. I also told him that I noted that one person came. That person opened with a key. So I told him that two people had to be there and take that person with them inside and then four of us would go inside.
There was an auto machine next to the bank, so four people, four members of the unit can be able to operate inside and give this lady an order to open the safe to take the money from the drawers, or whatever it is, that was under the counters and then there should be one person that would stand at the doorway so that those two that are outside would let people in, those that are knocking at the door, the bank staff, they would let them in, one by one and inside there was to be a person who would take those people that were going inside, he was going to guard them as they were lying down. Again there should be one person who would open the safe and one of us had to carry a bag that we put the money in.
So that is what I told him about the way that we could do this job. So the Comrade appointed me as a Commander for this operation and then he said that he would give me further instructions. He was then satisfied with the plan that I was giving him because I had reconnoitred the place.
In December I was contacted by my Commander Mzukisi Nazo, he was together with five people and amongst these five, Comrade Samora was there, Myame Zelutingane, the one sitting next to me, Comrade Ngruma, his real name is Joey Mshweshwe, Tongongara, Stanley Mtetejana, Gadafe, Waga and Comrade Mabutwa. My Commander introduced these five people to me as a unit that was going to do this job with me. He said to me: "Commander, here is the unit that you are going to work with." He told the members of this unit that this is Comrade Eric Ngomezulu, that is my pseudonym. He told them that I was going to be the Commander. He said that they would get instructions from me, or details from me. I saluted my comrades. I asked them their pseudonyms and they told me. They left after that. So there was another soldier. He told me that and that was Comrade Ngruma. He said that he had anarchy, so I told this Comrade that he must come and see me the following day at seven at the safe house.
So the following morning at seven, Comrade Ngruma came and then we both went to Uitenhage. I then showed him where the target was. We remained in that same position that I was in the previous month, when I was doing the reconnaissance, I showed him the target and I told him that we were going to do the operation there, so we were there to reconnoitre the place. At about five past eight in that same corner next to Caledon Street, that white lady, the same white lady appeared on that corner. She went towards the door. She took out the key from her handbag. She opened the door and then she went inside. The members of staff came in one by one as it happened the previous month. One would come, knock at the door, the door would be opened from inside and that person would go in and the door would be closed. Another one would do the same thing. Knock at the door, open the door and the door would be closed again. This went on until the bank was opened. I gave Mabutwa a fifty rand note, sorry Comrade Ngruma, to go inside to reconnoitre the place inside. He went in. After a minute he came back and from there we took a taxi, we went back to Port Elizabeth.
When we arrived in Port Elizabeth he told me what he saw inside and I realised that what he observed was what I observed the previous month, that is in November when I was there. I then told him that there was going to be an operation there and he was going to be Second in Command of the operation. He would get further instructions from me.
First week of January, I went back again to Uitenhage. I consulted Ngruma and I went back to Uitenhage. I went to that same position and I observed the same thing that I saw in December and this time I didn't bother to go in, I was satisfied that the process is still the same. I went back to Port Elizabeth. I reported to my Commander that I did the reconnaissance and I'm satisfied, he can just give me a date to go and do the job. The Commander then gave me a date, the 21st of January. The 20th of January I went to get some registration number plates. When I came back, I organised some bags and I got three post office mail bags, the big ones. I consulted Ngruma that at seven that day he must bring the members of the unit and he must prepare them. I contact another comrade that I knew who is a taxi driver. I asked him that the following day on the 21st whether he can take me to Uitenhage in the morning at seven o'clock, he would be paid for that trip before we leave for Uitenhage. This comrade agreed, his name is Richard Mgebe. He agreed that he would take me to Uitenhage.
Later that day, Comrade Mzukisi Nazo came with a bag and I noticed that this was a heavy bag. He gave me this bag. He said: "Commander, these are your tools, or the weapons that you are going to use, that you required". I took this bag, put it in a room. He said that everything was in my hands now, he would get a report from me. He gave me permission to go and execute the operation. He left after that.
Ngruma, at about seven, came with other unit members, Comrade Samora, Tongongara, Gadafe and Mabutwa. I told them that, I told why I called them there, I told them that there was going to be an operation tomorrow, the following day in the morning before nine o'clock. I told them about the plan so that each and every one would have a responsibility to take in the target the following morning. As I have already said, I appointed Ngruma as the Second in Command of the operation and Ngruma, I told them that when that lady was approaching the bank, I would order her to open the doors of the bank. After doing that, I would tell the lady to co-operate with you. I appointed Ngruma to be in command of the operation inside the target. Ngruma was going to work with Comrade Samora. I gave Samora those post office mail bags so that when Ngruma was ordering this lady to open the safes or the drawers, Ngruma would be collecting money from those safes or from those drawers. That was going to happen after I ordered the lady to open the door of the bank and co-operate with them and to do what she was told to do. Comrade Gadafe, I gave him a position at the door. I was going to position myself outside to control the staff members, thirteen or fourteen staff members, those that were knocking at the door. I would let them in and then Comrade Gadafe was going to be the one who was going to be inside at the door and Tongongara would tell the staff members to lie down and then Tongongara would guard them and Gadafe would go back to his position at the door to observe what was happening outside. At that time I would be outside with Comrade Mabutwa. There was an auto bank, a machine, they would pretend as if they were drawing money in that auto machine bank, so that each and everyone that was coming, he would lead them inside.
So I told them about their positions and I told them about the whole plan in executing this mission. Everybody understood what was going to happen the following day. I took out this bag with weapons, I told them to take the weapons to check that they were in working order, so they indeed did so. Comrade Samora took a 9mm parabellum and each one chose a firearm to used the following day.
The following day, the 21st of January, a powder blue kombi stopped in front of the safe house, Comrade Richard Mgebe was the driver of the kombi. He went in, he told us that he was there as we had requested him to come. I took out the set of number plates and I gave them to Comrade Samora and the stickers. These registration numbers were Uitenhage registration numbers, so I told them to stick them on top of those of that taxi. He indeed did that and then he came back at about twenty-five past seven and told us that he had finished doing that. Everybody took his firearm and we took those post office bags. We then got inside the kombi, we went to Uitenhage.
We arrived in Uitenhage at about five past eight or so. I showed the driver where to stop the car, where to park the car. The unit got out of the car with Ngruma. He was going to show them where to wait. I then gave the driver final instructions in the kombi, instructions that he must not panic because what we were there to do will take five to ten minutes, so he must not worry, he must not panic, he must just wait for us there and he was going to be well-secured. I went in the direction of the target. I was carrying a grey striped jacket. Under this jacket there was a revolver, a 3.8 revolver, a silver revolver.
When I arrived next to the target, this lady had just arrived. I knew her, I knew that she was the one who was opening the bank. I went to this lady, I asked her what time was the bank going to open. She said at nine and at the time when I was asking this lady, I had already - my firearm was ready, it was under this jacket that I was carrying. I ordered this lady to open the bank, I am there to repossess money, she must not be scared or afraid, nothing was going to happen to her, she must think of her life and the life of her kids. This lady looked at me, she opened the bank, my unit members then were coming as I'd instructed them, or as I had instructed the one who was Second in Command. I told the person who was Second in Command that they know what to do inside and this lady was co-operating so she must be treated well. They went in and they closed. I positioned myself next to the auto machine, together with Comrade Mabutwa.
After few minutes or at about ten past eight, a Volkswagen beetle, a blue Volkswagen beetle stopped in front of the door of the target. A lady got out, a white lady got out of that car, that beetle. She went to the door. She knocked at the door. When she was knocking at the door, the beetle then left . The driver was a young white man, so he drove the beetle and then he left. I shifted my position. I went next to the lady that was standing at the door of the bank. I told her to push the door, it was opened, to go it. The door was opened. I pointed at this lady with a firearm. She then pushed the door and she went in. I went back to my position next to the auto machine, where we were pretending as if we were drawing money, we were withdrawing money, so that the passers-by cannot be suspicious.
A Moslem guy came, I also know that guy because of the reconnaissance that I did. I know that he was one of the staff members. I ordered Mabutwa to go and lead this guy inside. He followed him and he pointed him with a pistol when he was next to the door. He told him to go inside. When Mabutwa was going back to his position, I noticed that he was in a hurry and he said that he was late and he said things were bad. I thought that there was something that was happening from behind. I looked at the glass of the bank and I realised that on my back there were two white policemen who were coming towards the bank. They had their firearms in their hands. I looked at Gadafe at the door and I realised, I thought that Gadafe was able to see what was happening, even though we could not see inside the bank, but Gadafe was able to see outside, so I thought I should give him a signal and follow Mabutwa after giving out that signal. I was going to Mabutwa's direction and then I said that the bank would open at nine o'clock, so I was giving a signal to Mabutwa to lock the door from the inside. I followed Comrade Mabutwa.
When I got to the corner I was wearing a cap, so I took off that cap and the sunglasses and the jacket that I was carrying and the firearm, my firearm, I put my firearm in a plastic and I hid all those things under the stairs so that I can be able to rush back and see where the enemy was, so that we can be able to free our unit that was inside. When I was coming back, Comrade Samora appeared and Comrade Gadafe. They said to me: "Commander Ngruma gave us an order to come and tell you that he has withdrawn and he has two hostages with him." At the time when they were telling me this, I thought I should go and take my parcels where I had hidden them.
When we were talking, we noticed that there was a van on the other side of the street, the police van and those police were suspicious, they were looking at us but they could not cross the street to come to our direction, so they went up, they drove up the street. Luckily a taxi stopped next to us in front of us. I thought that we should leave my parcels there, we should get into this taxi because this van can come back, so we got into this taxi, we went back to Port Elizabeth.
When we arrived in Port Elizabeth, there was a blue towel where we arrived and I realised that my unit members were already there. When I went in, the unit was there. I wanted to know from Nongcuba where the hostages were. He said that they left them in kwaNdwese. I asked whether they had touched them in any way. He said no, nothing was done to them. I asked whether anybody was shot or any firearms were used. He told me a misfiring happened accidentally when they were boarding a taxi together with the hostages, with that get-away car a misfiring happened. Tongongara shot at the sliding door of the kombi when the hostages were getting in the taxi. So I wanted to see this place and he said that Richard Mgebe, the taxi driver, took the former President Nelson Mandela sticker and then he put it where the bullet had struck the kombi. I wanted to know from the Second in Command about the money, where was the money. He told me that: "Commander, I decided to use my own discretion, when I saw the enemy I left everything there. Then we decided to leave the place."
I congratulated the comrades because the unit was safe, all of them were there. I asked Comrade Mabutwa how he got there. Comrade Mabutwa said he took cover and then when he saw the unit going out of the bank with the hostages, he took another taxi to follow this one and then when the hostages got out in kwaNdwese, he instructed the taxi driver to pass them, so when other members of the unit arrived, Mabutwa was already there. So I congratulated them because all the members were safe and they handled the hostage issue very well because nobody was injured and they did not do anything to them and that was the order that I was given.
So I collected the firearms. I told them to lie low and they would get further instructions from me. I took the firearms from them and then we parted. I consulted my Commander, Comrade Mzukisi Nazo. I gave him a report about the operation as he had given me the order. He also said that as long as the unit is safe and as long as there's nobody injured or nobody was killed and the hostages were not harmed, it was okay. So I handed the firearms over to him. He then said that I would get further instructions from him."
MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you arrested finally?
MR BALEKA
"On the 14th of February the enemy came, the enemy took me to the headquarters in Louis Le Grange square. They asked me about this operation and I told them that I did not know anything about this operation and they said that they had information that I was one of the people who executed this operation, so that is how I was charged.
After some time I realised, or I saw Comrade Samora, or I met Comrade Samora in Uitenhage. He also told me that he was arrested in connection with this operation. I was surprised, or I was shocked. I wanted to know from him whether he had accepted responsibility for this operation. He said yes, he accepted responsibility because they were threatening him, the police were threatening him. I asked him what he had told them and he told me what he said to them. He said that he had made statement and he pointed out - he went to the target to do some point-outs. I told him it's okay as long as he did not mention that he was doing this for the organisation. After some time I saw the Comrade, that was the taxi driver Richard Mgebe, he was already there - he was also there as the accused, so there were three of us now. During the trial it was discovered that Richard Mgebe was the one who was giving evidence against us in Court. I was then sentenced for 15 years for this operation. Comrade Samora was sentenced for 13 years."
MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to the other members of the unit?
MR BALEKA: When I was there, I heard that these comrades that were with me, that were also members of this unit, they passed away, but they died in different places due to different reasons, so I am not really sure of what happened. I heard that some of them were shot etc, but I heard that they died.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson and Honourable Members.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination?
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Baleka you've indicated in your evidence that you joined the PAC, more specifically the P.E. branch in New Brighton in January 1971, is that correct?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETHE: On page 126 of the bundle, there is a letter written by Vuamisa, do you know about it? Do you know him? 126.
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, I know him.
MS THABETHE: Does he know you personally? Have you ever dealt with him?
MR BALEKA: He is the Regional Chairman of the Pan Africanist Congress.
MS THABETHE: Does he know you?
MR BALEKA: Yes.
MS THABETHE: Does he know you very well, would you say?
MR BALEKA: ; Yes, I can say he knows me very well.
MS THABETHE: Can you explain then why in this letter he says both you and Mr Ndingane have been attacked to the New Brighton Branch since 1990, not in 1971 as you have indicated?
MR BALEKA: The organisation, the PAC, was banned at that time and political organisations were "unbanned" in 1990, so I'm sure he wrote this in that sense.
MS THABETHE: No, my question is, wouldn't he know that you started being a member, you've been a member since 1971, as a person who knows you very well?
MR BALEKA: As I've already said, yes, I joined in 1971. The organisation at the time was banned and as he also states, that I'm a member of the PAC under the Chairmanship of the PE branch since 1990. The organisations at the time were banned. Maybe he is the one who can explain it better why he put it this way, otherwise Comrade Filita is the person who recruited me to join the PAC.
MS THABETHE: I won't take this issue any further, I'll move on. I've realised from your record of previous convictions that you've committed quite a number of robberies and thefts and would it be appropriate for me to say that you have quite an extensive experience with regard to robberies, looking at your previous convictions? Would it be appropriate for me to say so? For the record, a copy of the previous convictions is on page 54 of the bundle.
MR BALEKA: I cannot dispute that. As I have said here before that I do have some previous records. I used to work as a courier. The organisation was banned. Yes, there are some other things that I was involved in though the organisation itself was guiding me when it comes to discipline and the rules of the organisation, but to further the objectives of my organisation because we did not have money, I had to help myself too in order to be able to do what I am instructed to do.
JUDGE MILLER: Are you suggesting that all these crimes you did was because you were a member of the PAC? Is that what you're suggesting?
MR BALEKA: No.
JUDGE MILLER: Well what are you suggesting then?
MR BALEKA: As I said Chairperson, some of the offences here I would do some other things that were not related to the organisation.
JUDGE MILLER: I couldn't understand your answer. You said that because the PAC didn't have any money, you had to do these crimes to help yourself. You seem to link the doing of these crimes here to you being a member of the PAC and yet when one looks at these crimes, most of them are little petty type crimes, snatching bags, pinching a jacket from a shop worth R6-50, taking handbags, that sort of thing. Theft of R6, theft, grabbed out of somebody's hand R4. Are you saying you did that because you weren't getting money from the PAC?
MR BALEKA: Chairperson as I've explained before that some of the crimes were not related to the organisation. Yes, the PAC had given me a mandate but because of the conditions that we were living under, unemployment rate was high and I also had to do something, do things that I was requested to do by the organisation, but that doesn't mean that I was instructed to do that. I would do those for personal reasons.
JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, because you gave the impression that you seemed to link up your joining of the PAC to the dates that your previous convictions start in 1971. You mention that you were a courier and that because the PAC didn't have money, you had to do these, now you say you're doing them for your own benefit. Ms Thabethe.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if I understand precisely what you're saying. I have the same problem as my colleague here. Is the position that you didn't have any other job? You worked as a courier for the PAC, but you had no employment, no source of income?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: The PAC couldn't afford to pay you, so you stole money to keep going on, or you stole goods to sell so you could keep existing?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you never have employment?
MR BALEKA: The reason for me to be unemployed, it was during the times of unrest and at my home we had a cafe, a shop, that is the reason for me to be unemployed. I never worked.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Baleka, I'm just trying to understand something here and I hope you'll assist me. in 1971, okay you were born in 1956, correct?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETHE: So in 1971 you would have been 15 years old, correct?
MR BALEKA: That is correct.
MS THABETHE: 16?
CHAIRPERSON: If it's arithmetic, ja it depends on what time of the year, but 1956 - he said he joined in the January, it's 15.
MS THABETHE: Approximately 15/16 years. And your first previous conviction in these records is in 1971 in March. Now, my question is, I'm having difficulties trying to understand the political context of the robbery you committed in 1994. When I have sight of so many previous convictions that you've had, some of them which are robberies and my question to you is, first of all the PAC office seems to be suggesting that you were a member since 1990, you are suggesting that you have been a member since 1971 and since you have such experience in criminal activities, to put it plainly, how does one know that this robbery wasn't part of your criminal activities that you have been engaged in before? What makes this robbery different from the other criminal activities you've been performing? Can you respond to that?
MR BALEKA: First of all, this could set an example that the organisation had sent a legal representative to stand for me here during this amnesty application after applying because I knew that the organisation is fully aware of this operation that the incident was politically motivated and they also said that I would get guidance from time to time from the organisation though I would be involved in my own personal activities in crime because of the conditions that we were living under but with this case the organisation is fully aware.
CHAIRPERSON: Looking at the previous convictions, they bear no relationship whatsoever to the present offence, do they? The robbery is a robbery of R10.
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, if I may respond. It doesn't - it's not similar to the offence in question but ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: They're all petty theft.
MS THABETHE: But Mr Chair, the applicant does have experience in thefts.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS THABETHE: You say what's the difference? I say there's a vast difference between theft of a pair of shoes worth R30 and setting up a robbery of a bank with six armed people.
MS THABETHE: But Mr Chair, I was going to argue that even if the offences can be different, the fact remains it's criminal activities and the applicant was involved in a number of criminal activities, petty as they are. It doesn't remove the fact that they are criminal activities.
Which is my question, how would we know this one is not a criminal activity as the other ones, petty as they are?
JUDGE MILLER: Any further questions? I think he answered by saying he's had the organisation appointing a lawyer for him and they know about it.
MS THABETHE: Just to respond, Mr Baleka, in as much as there is a lawyer who is representing you, there have been other cases where people have claimed to be acting on behalf of the PAC and they haven't and they were still represented by the same lawyer. Secondly with regard to the fact that you are saying the PAC knows about this operation, that's not true. They know, they have confirmed that you were a member, but they have not confirmed the operation. Do you want to respond or can I move on?
MR BALEKA: Who are those people who are saying that they are not aware about this, of this operation, because I still maintain that the organisation is fully aware of this operation.
MS THABETHE: First of all, just to refresh your memory Mr Baleka, all the people who were involved in this operation are unfortunately deceased, so we couldn't ask them anything to confirm your incident. Mzukisi Nazo is also deceased and we couldn't ask him anything. We asked your office as a result and this is the letter we got, which does not confirm the operation you were involved in. Do you want to respond?
MR BALEKA: ; First of all, if these unit members, the fact that these unit members are not present, it's not for my own doing, but what I am saying is that the operation itself is known by the organisation and I was instructed by my Commander and the fact that Mzukisi Nazo is no more, this is not because of my own doing. I received instructions for the operation.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
JUDGE MILLER: You say, page twenty-eight, that Comrade Joey was shot dead in an operation in 1996. Stanley was also shot dead in 1995, Mabutwa was killed in an operation in Uitenhage at Pick 'n Pay in 1996, is that correct?
MR BALEKA: Yes, Chairperson, that's what I heard that about the dates.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but you're talking about them being shot in operations. What are those, PAC/APLA operations?
Why do you use the word operations here?
MR BALEKA: That is the information that I heard and at that time we had a new government, there was no reason for people to continue the operations.
JUDGE MILLER: That's why I want to know, why do you use the word "operations" here? It's your statement.
MR BALEKA: It's because we were so used to using this terminology.
JUDGE MILLER: When did APLA cease it's armed conflict? Was it not before the 21st of January 1994?
MR BALEKA: That is correct, Chairperson.
JUDGE MILLER: So now you're saying that you got an order from your Commander in P E to conduct an operation the same week, or within a week after APLA had ceased it's operations? Was he flagrantly ignoring the national, the whole organisation, for you to carry out an operation so shortly after the stopping of the participation in the armed conflict?
MR BALEKA: Chairperson, I always depended on an order. I have to execute the order, I cannot complain.
JUDGE MILLER: You see, one could understand it if you were a unit stuck out somewhere and there was a lack of communication, but here you are in Port Elizabeth, one of the strongholds of the organisation, with a noted Commander and you say he gives an order for you to conduct an operation after the cease fire, after the ceasing of the conflict and then when you report back to him, he says don't worry, he's going to give you further instructions in the future. Why should he do that when APLA had ceased to operate?
CHAIRPERSON: When did they cease to operate?
JUDGE MILLER: 14th of February.
MR BALEKA: Chairperson, I just followed an order because I was given a mandate to go and reconnoitre since 1993 and I was told on the very first week of January ...(intervention)
JUDGE MILLER: Yes. No you've told us the history of it, but you said also that Nazo came on the 20th of January the night before and gave you the guns and said go ahead and do this.
MR BALEKA: I was just given an order Chairperson and I executed the operation. I knew nothing about the cease of the arms struggle. I was just given the order. The operation that was already prepared the previous year in November.
JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever hear that there was a ceasefire?
MR BALEKA: No, I only got that information after some time.
JUDGE MILLER: After you were arrested? After your arrest?
MR BALEKA: After that operation Sir.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes. So you're saying that everybody involved in the operation, your Commander, all you other comrades save for you and your co-applicant, they're all now deceased?
MR BALEKA: Yes, that's what I heard Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was Michael Kashimba?
MR BALEKA: He is the comrade who is running the affairs of the organisation in Port Elizabeth branch.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he still there?
MR BALEKA: I never heard anything about his death, but I hope that he is still alive.
CHAIRPERSON: Because I see in your letter that you've been referred to, or your answer to requests, you say that he will confirm your membership and that you committed the offence to further the political objectives of the party.
MR BALEKA: I said so, Chairperson, since I thought that he was in the leadership.
CHAIRPERSON: And you also referred to someone Sepo Kundo.
MR BALEKA: That is correct, Chairperson. When I was referring to Sepo Kundo, it is when the Amnesty Committee wanted to get information about Mzukisi Nazo, my Commander. I made mention of Sepo Kundo, the one that you're talking about because of the fact that I wanted to contact the Amnesty Office concerning that because I wanted to say Kuma, instead of Kundo.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: It's one o'clock now, should we take the adjournment now?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, we can take it now.
CHAIRPERSON: Quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
