Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is the next witness?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like to call the first applicant, Mr Glen Vilakazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Vilakazi come up to the witness stand please.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 51 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us to administer the oath?

MR SIBEKO: Please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT TO APPLICANT

CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Glen Vilakazi?

GLEN VILAKAZI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Vilakazi, you are an applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know the reason of your application?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I do know them.

MR SIBEKO: Now in front of me here I've got your application with your particulars. Such form has the questions which were sent over to you for your completion and response.

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Now why have you applied for amnesty?

MR VILAKAZI: I am applying for amnesty because I was a person who took part in all the incidents that happened in the community.

MR SIBEKO: Your involvement in the activities or in the events that occurred at the time in the community, are you in a position to say exactly what did you do which necessitates your request for amnesty?

MR VILAKAZI: I would begin by explaining. First of all we were oppressed by this violence that took place in our community. From there the community at large called upon a meeting.

At that meeting that's where we discussed things like what is it that we could put in place this violence or avoid this violence. The community responded by saying maybe it would be best for us to donate some money so that we could be able buy some weapons in defence, and we mobilised that.

After we donated some money it was moved that we elect seven people and call them a Committee of Seven and those are the people who will administer these funds to ensure that they serve the purpose. I was one of the Committee of Seven, one member of the Committee of Seven.

After the money was donated we were given the money and we were mandated to go and buy the weapons to defend ourselves. The seven of us indeed did that. I myself ...(intervention)

MR SIBEKO: Before you proceed Sir, there are facts that you have got to clarify.

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: You said you had a problem, that is in your community, which community are you talking about?

MR VILAKAZI: It's the community where I resided.

MR SIBEKO: And what would be that section?

MR VILAKAZI: It's called Lusaka-A.

MR SIBEKO: I would presume that is the new name for the section but at the time of the violence what was it called?

MR VILAKAZI: At the time it was known as Thabanzimbi Area.

MR SIBEKO: Now you further testified that when you encountered such problems, that is you experienced this violence, the community decided, in fact you convened a meeting, that is the community met. Now what period are we talking about, when was this because we heard the first witness saying the violence started at about 1990, now what we'd like to know is exactly when did you in your community, that is Thabanzimbi, encounter such a problem?

MR VILAKAZI: I don't have a clear recollection of all the events, especially the times but I know for a fact that there was a time of violence where violence was rife in this area and I would not like to say this was the particular time and yet it was not but it was around that time of violence when this happened.

MR SIBEKO: Then proceed Sir.

MR VILAKAZI: After this money was donated and we were elected, the seven of us, we went out in search of the weapons to defend ourselves.

Myself I secured a place first before the rest, in other words before the other six where I in fact identified a place where we could buy or purchase these weapons to defend ourselves.

When I got there we discovered that we did not have sufficient funds to buy even one weapon because we only had R800,00. I went back to give the report to the committee and told them that I've already identified a place and they must not bother identifying another place, but we are sitting here with a problem of insufficient funds because we only have R800,00 and they promised that if we could R1 200,00 they would be able to give us weapons.

Fortunately we were meeting every Sunday at a certain school for meetings. The following meeting we reported to the community that we have identified a place of buying weapons but then we have a problem of funds. The only problem we have is money, the money we have is not enough.

They had to donate again on that meeting and we were able to purchase only two firearms. Indeed I was given that money to go purchase such weapons. I did that and I brought them back. I reported the matter to the committee and we also gave the report to the community as well, that we've already got two firearms. The community itself could see that we did not have enough weapons especially that the violence was so rife and the area was so wide. With only two firearms it was not practical for us to defend ourselves and therefore it was seen that more funds were to be contributed, especially that firearms were so expensive. It was only practical for the community to keep donating or contributing funds towards the purchase of more firearms. To be able to buy more firearms and more ammunition we had to keep contributing.

MR SIBEKO: After the money was collected or was contributed by the public, did you as the committee, in fact all seven of you who were elected for such a structure, go out an look for the weapons, all of you? Is that what you are saying?

MR VILAKAZI: Firstly we agreed that it was said that we should all go, the seven of us but because I was the one who first identified the place I told the committee members to rest because I've already identified a place.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed.

MR VILAKAZI: After we gave the report back to the community that we've already identified a place and this is how much we need and the, it was now into the community's hands to decide as to how much will be contributed. But indeed they contributed and we kept buying, adding to what we had until we had enough firearms or weapons to defend our section where we resided.

After we secured that much they boys emerged who told us that they will be the ones using these firearms. They came with a certain person who was, whom they referred to as their leader by the name Mfinos. I know him as Mfinos. He was identified as their leader or rather they identified him as their leader.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Vilakazi, can you spell that name, Mfinos?

MR VILAKAZI: I think it's M-F-I-N-O-S.

MR SIBEKO: Go ahead.

MR VILAKAZI: Okay. This Mfinos was the leader now of this group of young men using these firearms and us as a community, we were people who would sort of administer the whole thing and take the messages from the community and convey it to the young men and we called them our soldiers.

We would always convey messages from one side to the other. So in other words we were the mediators. Each time there was some misunderstanding, we would make it a point that we convey it to the other side and the soldiers will explain and we convey the message to the other side, the community that is.

That went on in that fashion and we kept defending, or the community was alert. We realised that if we had a problem that was beyond our power we would invite other sections to help and the same was happening with other sections, we will also be invited to help in case they had problems that were beyond their handling.

One particular year it so happened, it was a New Year's Eve, the Committee of Seven and others of, other members of the communities, we agreed that the crickets(?) should not be purchased because they project the same sound as the firearms so we realised that we should stop that. The parents must not buy an crickets, the firecrackers should not be purchased because they project the same sound as the firearms. So we encouraged parents not to buy such.

We told our soldiers, our young men to keep alert in every corner that was possible that the enemies would gain entrance from or entry from.

And Mfinos killed a particular person around that particular time. When we received the message that Mfinos has already killed somebody he told us now, Mfinos that is, that those people were robbing and they had now to act and Mfinos found himself killing the person and that was the particular he furnished to us. We asked as to which firearm he used and he was not in a position to draw the gun and show us. This was according to our policy.

If people used the firearms that were not licensed, those firearms should then be confiscated by the community and we therefore decided that Mfinos was not the right person with moral standards to lead these young men and we decided to confiscate his firearm and release him. In fact to fire him and not any longer be a leader.

We then called all the young men, the soldiers and we informed them about the decision we made or rather took with regards to Mfinos. Now they were in a position now to elect another commander or a leader who will lead them accordingly and with moral standards, and Mosa Msimango was elected as one to replace Mfinos.

We told or rather instructed the young men to administer the guns and ensure that they were used in a rightful way. We told Mosa that we don't want to see the soldier shooting indiscriminately and shooting for no apparent reason and we don't want to see the firearms mingling around in the community, and we would like them to be administered in a proper way, the firearms that is.

Each time we convened for meetings as a community and things that did not go well with the community were brought to our attention, we would make sure that we attend to the problem and address the problem.

And we told them as well, the soldiers, that some parents are complaining that the funds were not used in a proper way or the firearms were not used in the proper way and we would also convey to the parents what the soldiers' responses were with regards to the particular issue. So this is how we used to work and we always commanded or sort of led the young men to work in a certain manner that was acceptable.

We realised that we should also invite the thugs as well to come and join us in this fight and we could realise that Inkatha will not have much power to attack us if we were that much in number but sometimes it would happen, until a certain period when we took the matter to the community to decide about this and the community decided that maybe this should address in a way that whoever has killed should be killed as well. We took that report back to the soldiers, that this is what the community has suggested so you are the best people to do this. So it became our slogan that whoever has killed will be killed as well.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, when all this happened were you in a position to sit down, strategise and organise yourselves as the community? That is when the attacks were launched, directed to your section, did you have any time to sit down and strategise properly?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I would say but we did not have enough time to come together and discuss what we were going to do next. We would bring the soldiers along - let me just say also that most of the things happened during our absence whilst we were at work and we would indicate to the soldiers that they are the ones who would have to take care of the situation should anything happen.

I'm simply saying that we did not have time to sit down, we were not trained. We were forced by circumstances to do what we did.

MR SIBEKO: Now at the time when you were elected to be part of the Committee that you have referred to, were you already part of any political organisation?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I was a member of the ANC, the African National Congress.

MR SIBEKO: Furthermore, at the time when such meetings were convened, the two meetings that you referred to, who actually convened those meetings?

MR VILAKAZI: People used to convene meetings, people such as SANCO, the chairperson who was Dan. Vusi was part of that structure and Dingaan Tshabala, but the Chairperson was Dan.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, there is something that I want clarified here. You say you used to take the problems encountered by the community and discuss those problems what you call your soldiers. Now where exactly did you take your instructions or your orders? That is you as the Committee of Seven.

MR VILAKAZI: Everything that was happening in our section would be presented to the community and it would be the committee or the community in return that would tell us what to do and take this to the soldiers.

MR SIBEKO: Now other than what you have already told us about, are there any other specific incidences that you would want to be indemnified on or where you apply for amnesty, other than what you have told us about?

MR VILAKAZI: All in all there are certain incidents that happened without our orders or instructions but we get instructions, or should I say report back after those incidents had happened and we would relate this to the community after we were reported to by the people concerned.

MR SIBEKO: Were you at any stage part of those who were patrolling or guarding the section, as you say the soldiers, were you at any stage part of the soldiers?

MR VILAKAZI: No, I was not part of the soldiers.

MR SIBEKO: Now the other thing is, at the time you accepted the responsibility of taking the money and buying arms and ammunition, you were aware that those are deadly instruments and they would be used in such a way that people might be injured or might die, you nevertheless accepted the responsibility. Why Sir?

MR VILAKAZI: I did not have any choice because had I not accepted I would not be here today maybe.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to assume that you never at any stage fired any shot directed towards anybody at any stage?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've just got one or two questions.

Sir, we've heard from the previous witness that there was a set plan to take firearms from police, to attack police and get firearms from them, rob them of their firearms basically. Do you know anything of this? That's my first question, and secondly were you involved in any of these actions? ...(end of tape)

MR VILAKAZI: ... we never had such a thing, we never had such a plan in our section. I don't know about other sections. We never had such a plan in our section and I was not involved in that.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV SANDI: Mr Vilakazi, are you able to recall the number of firearms you were able to collect?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I would be in the position to recall. We had 21 firearms but we did not buy them all at once, we bought them as and when we had money.

ADV SANDI: Just to go back to this question Advocate Steenkamp has just asked you, did you say you were not aware of any plan to the effect that firearms could be confiscated from police? You were not aware of such a plan, did I understand you correctly?

MR VILAKAZI: I am saying in my section we did not have such a plan, we heard about that in other sections but we were not part of that.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Vilakazi. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Vilakazi, the youth, the soldiers, did they attend any of these community meetings?

MR VILAKAZI: No, they did not attend the meetings. It would sometimes happen that you may have one soldier at the meeting, they were not stopped from attending, they were not barred from attending the meetings.

ADV GCABASHE: Then did you have regular meetings with the soldiers, weekly meetings, daily meetings, can you just clarify that?

MR VILAKAZI: We used to have a meeting on Sundays, a community meeting and we would later on have another meeting with the soldiers wherein we reported back to the soldiers about what transpired at the community meeting.

ADV GCABASHE: So essentially you met the soldiers every Sunday, one a week, every Sunday after the community meeting?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, we used to meet with the soldiers and they would also report back on what transpired on their part and we would take this back to the community.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you able to recall any other incident apart from the one involving Mfinos, where you know specifically of somebody who got killed?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, there are incidents, I think two of them that I still remember, things or incidents that happened.

An information that came to us through our soldiers, Lucky Mkwanazi was killed. The person who killed Lucky, we later learnt that he too was killed.

The second one was when Baab was killed, a man by the name of Baab was killed. We later on learnt that the person who killed Baab was also killed. These are the incidents that I still remember very well.

We ...

ADV GCABASHE: The interpreter didn't quite finish the sentence. I was listening to your - essentially you are saying that the reason that you didn't investigate the Lucky and the Baab killings was because your own soldiers had also been killed by the other side, did I hear you correctly?

MR VILAKAZI: No, I am not saying that, what I am saying is that after a person has been killed it would be upon us to investigate as to how the person died but it was now difficult for us to pursue that investigation because the person who has killed has himself been killed and therefore it became difficult for us to pursue such an investigation because the soldiers, our soldiers did not come up with the truth as to who was involved. We only learnt about this now that we are applying for amnesty. This is when we got to know this information.

ADV GCABASHE: Now in relation to Lucky and Baab's killing, you are saying that these were killed with firearms that were purchased by you as commanders, this is the link between yourself and this incident am I right?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, but I would say Baab is the one person who was killed by a firearm that we bought. I am not sure about Lucky's death. I don't know what was used to kill him.

ADV GCABASHE: But the person who killed Lucky was one of your soldiers, one of the members of your local soldiers?

MR VILAKAZI: No, he was not our soldier, the person who killed Lucky. The one person who killed Baab was the one who was our soldier.

ADV GCABASHE: Now correct me if I'm wrong. You are essentially saying that you are applying for amnesty for two broad things, just correct me if I'm not correct, one for obtaining the firearms that were used in your community, is that right?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And then secondly for facilitating the use of those firearms in the protection of the community?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Now Mr Vilakazi, the violence that you have referred to, was that between yourselves - you said you are an ANC members, was it the violence between the people that supported the ANC and people that supported the IFP?

MR VILAKAZI: Ourselves as residents in that community, we would wake up to the gunshots and learn that people have died and on trying to follow this we would see police dropping of Inkatha followers wearing red headbands. And these IFP people were shooting such that everyone of us would try to run for cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the 21 firearms that you had obtained, what sort of firearms was that, was it AK47s, big guns?

MR VILAKAZI: All of them were AK47s.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your application on page 53, in answer to question 9(b) you say that the SDUs who were supplied with the above weapons were involved in killing and injuring people and then you say that, of course as you said earlier to us, that you were not yourself directly involved in the killing, you confirm that, is that right?

MR VILAKAZI: Would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm referring to page 53 in our papers actually, it's part of your application form and I'm specifically referring to the answer to question number 9(b) where it says that the SDUs who were supplied with the weapons, the AK47s that you referred to in the application as well, were involved in killing and injuring people. Do you see that you confirm that that is correct?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, I would say I cannot deny the fact that some people died and some got injured. There was a lot of fighting at the time and therefore it was likely that people could die and people could be injured following our purchase of these firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: And the point is that given your position on the Committee of Seven, given the role that you played, you accept full responsibility for what had happened, is that correct?

MR VILAKAZI: I do not quite follow the question, I don't know. Would you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: I say that given the position that you held as a member of the Committee of Seven and the role that you played in that connection, you accept full responsibility for what took place?

MR VILAKAZI: I am here asking for amnesty because my reasoning is that had it not been for my part in trying to procure firearms, some people may not have died.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then I understand you correctly. I was just confirming that I understand you correctly.

Mr Sibeko, have you got any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Only one aspect, Mr Chairman.

Sir, we spoke about you going out and buying arms, are you in a position to tell this Committee as to where and from whom did you buy such arms?

MR VILAKAZI: We bought these firearms at Polla Park and John whom I used to call Sbali is the person from whom we bought these firearms.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know where this John got these arms?

MR VILAKAZI: I would not bear any knowledge of that because there were so many people from Mozambique residing at Polla Park and we therefore had this belief that these guns must have smuggled from Mozambique.

MR SIBEKO: Would you be in a position to say whether this John also came from Maputo or ...?

MR VILAKAZI: I cannot vouch to that because we had this belief that anybody who spoke Shangaan (Tshisonga) comes from Mozambique, but we also have local Shangaan speaking ...

MR SIBEKO: Thanks Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

ADV GCABASHE: But just to follow up on that, you paid them in full for the firearms, they didn't give them to you for nothing, you paid them for these firearms?

MR VILAKAZI: Yes, that is correct, we gave them all the money because they would not take credit.

ADV GCABASHE: And then with ANC stocks, did you get any stocks from the ANC, from MK cadres who were coming back?

MR VILAKAZI: I don't about other sections but in our section no, we did not get anything.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Chairman.

Mr Vilakazi, this John who was selling arms, were you able to find out as to whether he was selling arms to the opposite side as well, the IFP? Were they also buying arms from him?

MR VILAKAZI: I would not bear knowledge to that effect but all I know is that he would be so thrilled if you came with some money to purchase some firearms. It didn't matter to him what happened to you on your way back. I don't think it mattered to him who purchased the firearms, he was just concerned about getting the money.

ADV SANDI: Would you be able to say whether the police knew that people like John were selling arms in the course of this conflict?

MR VILAKAZI: Insofar as the police were concerned, I would not say they knew because there was no relationship, they were not helping us in any way at that time. Maybe they knew, maybe not. I have no knowledge.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, are you done?

MR SIBEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Do you want Mr Vilakazi to be excused?

MR SIBEKO: It is so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Then he is excused and you can call the next applicant.

WITNESS EXCUSED