CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further applicants?
MR MOPEDI: I do have one, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: How many have you got?
MR MOPEDI: It's only one for now, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: One left. Alright, I think call him before we adjourn.
MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant is Goodman Montlem Motaung. It's page 98.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear, Mr Motaung?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Won't you stand and give us your full names?
GOODMAN MONTLEM MOTAUNG: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down, Mr Motaung. Mr Mopedi?
EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Motaung, you have also got an application for amnesty and could you tell us why you are applying for amnesty?
MR MOTAUNG: The reason why I came forward to apply for amnesty is because there are incidents that I took part in.
MR MOPEDI: Can you tell us about those instances, tell us about those incidents.
MR MOTAUNG: There is an incident that I took part in in 1993, although I don't have the finer details inasfar as the dates and time is concerned. We had gone to attack after some boys were shot at Mtagane Street, attacked by the IFP members.
Now in that particular incident the commander in charge was Sipho Ngubane and Mr Msimango was the chief commander at the time. When he met Mchacho, Slovo commander that is, they discussed about the incident that transpired in Mtagane Street and then we planned to launch a counter-attack.
MR MOPEDI: If I may come in, where were you going to launch an attack?
MR MOTAUNG: This attack was to be launched or was launched at Penduka. We were attacking Penduka people in actual fact.
MR MOPEDI: Were you together with Mr Tshabalala and Mr Masoka?
MR MOTAUNG: No, that particular attack I'm referring to was in the company of Simphiwe Ndlovu, Plegase Mhambi as well. One other person who was in our company was Kambule but he is in prison.
MR MOPEDI: Right, you may proceed.
MR MOTAUNG: Sipho Ngubane met with the Thambo commander and decided on day of attack, that it should happen on - the shooting of the small boys happened on a Friday in 1993 at night, and Sipho Ngubane came back to give us the report that he had already had a meeting with the other commander and the attack will be launched on Monday.
Sunday we went to Sipho Ngubane's home to gather there as a base so we would be able to wake up early in the morning and get ready for the attack. Indeed we went to Slovo. Now Slovo and Thambo are close to each other.
We found the soldiers from Slovo and their commander Nchacha, and we divided ourselves according to streets. Some were in - one group went to Khumalo Street, Ndagane Street, Shabango Street, Dube Street and Tshabalala Street.
We were grouped to this street known as Dube Street. That is where we were deployed. We waited for the shooting to emanate from Khumalo Street. We were very much alert for the response that will follow thereafter.
Now when we arrived we were waiting for the shooting to emanate from Khumalo Street, so that when people wake up they will find out that we are already there, ready to attack them but unfortunately it did not happen for those people to wake up and come to the streets where we were. The shooting did not start at Khumalo Street.
We started knocking at their doors and when they opened the doors we would assault them using sticks. We fled to Khatlehong, Nxala section because there were soldiers who were patrolling by foot. We saw those soldiers coming towards the street and we insulted them as they tried to call us. We fled the scene and we went to Nxala section in Khatlehong.
When we got to Nxala there was a furrow we had to cross and we got in a certain house and we were provided with clothes to wear and some soldiers were already there, trying to search if there were any street patrols patrolling the streets so that we would be able to go back ...(end of tape)
... already were mingling there and Mosa Msimango was already there. He commanded us to go back to our homes, respective homes, because it was no longer safe for us to be found around this scene. Sipho Ngubane that day was the commander on duty.
MR MOPEDI: Now this house in Dube Street ...(indistinct)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
MR MOPEDI: And this house in Dube Street, did you shoot people there?
MR MOTAUNG: At that particular house, yes we did shoot. Some people died, some survived and escaped but I'm not in a position to furnish you with an estimation or a number as to how many were injured but one thing for sure, the area is predominantly IFP. That house was covered with corrugated iron on the windows.
MR MOPEDI: So the people who were possibly shot, you don't know their names, you don't know who those people were?
MR MOTAUNG: The people who were shot there, I don't really know their names, I don't even know them facially but one thing I know is that they are IFP members.
MR MOPEDI: You in particular, you specifically, you also shot people there?
MR MOTAUNG: That I won't deny because I did have a firearm that was loaded.
MR MOPEDI: Why was it necessary for you to go and shoot those people?
MR MOTAUNG: What necessitated my action to shoot those people was that firstly I was an SDU member, secondly I was in this call of defending the community. So when that incident took place at Ndagane Street, when the little boys were shot, I took it upon my shoulders that I should do something as well and take part because our small boys were shot and I felt therefore obliged to do something towards this effect.
MR MOPEDI: So when you went there to shoot, what was your intention?
MR MOTAUNG: It was to kill and injure, possibly.
MR MOPEDI: So apart from the incident that you have told us about now, are there any other incidents that you still remember?
MR MOTAUNG: Another incident that I recall is the one Bheki Tshabalala referred to, when we would search unlawful firearms and knives that would be in the possession of people and we will confiscate such and we will taken them to the Committee of Seven.
MR MOPEDI: So on that aspect you confirm what Mr Tshabalala has already told this hearing?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I strongly agree with him.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone was not on.
MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add?
MR MOTAUNG: It's the Mshayazafe incident that I would like to dwell upon now, next to Khumalo Street. But what I emphasise about that particular incident is that I was not armed, I did not have an AK47 in my possession. I did take part though together with other soldiers to sort of check if there were police and if the condition was clear.
MR MOPEDI: So when was it when you went to Khumalo, when you launched an attack at Khumalo?
MR MOTAUNG: It was a fight at Khumalo as such, it was not an attack. It was a war type of a situation and that started at about nine, at about ten/eleven in the morning. That's when that war started.
MR MOPEDI: So you did not shoot there, you only participated by helping the members of the SDU with information?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I would say so, I did not shoot on that day because I did not have a firearm with me. I will only assist in checking the conditions for them as far as police were concerned, to ensure that the area was clear of any police.
MR MOPEDI: You were also allocated an AK47, is that correct? You were also given an AK47, is that correct?
MR MOTAUNG: On that particular day I did not have an AK47.
MR MOPEDI: What I mean, during the other attacks that you have referred to earlier, you had an Ak47 that you were using?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes, indeed.
MR MOPEDI: So could you tell us where that AK47 is, what happened to it?
MR MOTAUNG: In 1993, 1994, I beg your pardon, when there was peace and stability in the location our commander Mosa took it to the stadium when they were calling for firearms to be handed over.
MR MOPEDI: So you're also asking for amnesty?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes, I am applying for amnesty.
MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Cross-examination?
ADV STEENKAMP: No cross-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
ADV SANDI: This incident at Mshayazafe, Mr Motaung, at Mshayazafe, you say you had no firearm, why were you not armed?
MR MOTAUNG: What happened that day is, there was one firearm from our section, the other was in proper, that was not functioning properly. You had to keep cocking it before you pulled the trigger, so the commander declared that firearm as not in proper function. So that particular day I did not have a firearm in my possession, due to that.
ADV SANDI: Where was your usual firearm?
MR MOTAUNG: That was the firearm I'm referring to, I'm talking about. That day the firearm was not operating smoothly, you had to keep cocking and pulling the trigger and it was a bit cumbersome to use that particular firearm that day.
ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Motaung, the Mshayazafe incident, you say it was a war, how long did it last? You've told us it started at about ten/eleven in the morning, how long did that incident go on for?
MR MOTAUNG: This war was quelled by the ISU and the soldiers. The soldiers I'm remembering were the National Peace-keeping Force and the SANDF as well were there. They helped to quell the fight but it was late by then because people had already been killed.
ADV GCABASHE: So it went on all day, over two days? Just give us an idea.
MR MOTAUNG: It went on for that day.
ADV GCABASHE: To go back to the Dube Street incident. I understood you to say that because the shooting didn't start at Khumalo Street as you had planned, you then had to knock on people's doors to alert them that you were there, for one, and then attack once they opened the doors, is that correct?
MR MOTAUNG: Yes, that's what happened.
ADV GCABASHE: I also understood you to say at the time that you were armed with other weapons, I didn't think you had firearms at the time. Just correct me, because later on you indicated that you had your AK47 and you did shoot. Just help me, how many people had firearms and how many had knives or sticks or hit people with their fists?
MR MOTAUNG: You see on that particular day, amongst the people I was with no-one had sticks or knives, the only weapons we had were AK47s.
ADV GCABASHE: How many houses did you go into, just one or a number of houses on that street?
MR MOTAUNG: As I've already explained, we went to this particular house which was covered with corrugated iron on the windows. We fled after we attacked the people in that particular house. That is when the soldiers appeared and called on us. In actual fact they disturbed us in our mission because once they appeared we had to run away and we fled towards Khatlehong.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Mopedi?
MR MOPEDI: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Motaung, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, what is the position now?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I had a request from both my learned colleagues over there, Mr Sibeko and Mr Mopedi, that they are currently not in a position to proceed merely because they were not afforded the opportunity to consult and to prepare themselves for the rest of the applicants who are present here. They have only prepared those six applicants who testified today. The suggestion is from them as well that time can be bought in if they had an opportunity to prepare and consult with the remaining applicants, which will practically and logistically also make sense I would agree, because that would also save time later on. But I am sure Mr Mopedi and Mr Sibeko can fill you in on the details. As you please, Mr Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Gentlemen, Advocate Steenkamp has sketched part of the situation to us. Is that in fact your position at this stage?
MR SIBEKO: It's correct so, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And is the understanding that you would be placed in a position should the proceedings at this stage be postponed to start preparing further applications which you haven't had the opportunity to prepare on previously?
MR SIBEKO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry, I just want to indicate for record purposes, that these applicants are coming from very far and because they are present here today, we might as well consult with them and prepare them as well.
There's also the question of dealing with the logistical arrangements regarding legal aid and transport, although that is not the real issue. The other reason is, Mr Chairman, we have the majority of applicants here present today, which are applicants from Lusaka-B as well and for that we have to thank our investigators for them to be present. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: So with the result that the legal representatives will be placed in a position to do most of the consultations in order to be able to proceed with the remaining applications once we reconvene?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is exactly what is envisaged for the whole of next week in any event. Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, under those circumstances it appears as if we have listened to the testimony of the witnesses who were originally scheduled to appear today. It appears as if there are other applicants present but in respect of whose applications the legal representatives have not had adequate opportunity to prepare and to consult. And it appears as if whatever time might become available through the matters being postponed at this stage, it could be utilised by the legal representatives to engage in preparing for the remaining applications.
Under those circumstances it appears as if it would be sensible to adjourn the hearing. There have been indications earlier that the session would not be able to continue tomorrow for the reason that the registration for voters for the elections would interfere with these proceedings, and that is was clear earlier on that we would not be able to sit in any event in this venue tomorrow and it didn't make much sense to up everything and try and secure a different venue just for the day tomorrow, simply to come back to the venue over here.
So under those circumstances we will adjourn the session until Monday, the date escapes me for the moment but coming Monday, and we will commence the hearings at 10 o'clock in this venue. So we will adjourn and Monday, the 30th of November 1998. Our staff will do whatever is necessary to enable Mr Sibeko and Mr Mopedi and whoever else representing applicants, to be able to consult with their clients and to prepare to enable us to commence and to continue hearing applications next week, with the least possible interruption.
So under those circumstances we will then adjourn until Monday at 10 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
