CHAIRPERSON: Before we commence, I would just like to introduce the Committee to you. On my right is Adv Chris de Jager, he is an Advocate, a senior Counsel from Pretoria and a member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Adv Ntsiki Sandi, he is also an Advocate. He is from East London in the Eastern Cape, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court, also from the Eastern Cape.
We have the applications of nine applicants to deal with this week. We have spoken to the legal representatives of the applicants and of various victims and they will be deciding exactly how these applications will be approached, whether they will be dealt with incident by incident, or whether they will all be dealt with as one application, including various incidents.
I am told that all of the applicants are not yet here, but there is an applicant who is involved in an incident, which he is the only applicant involved in. We will be starting with that one. Which application is that?
MS MTANGA: It is amnesty Peter Maluleka. Peter Maluleka from page 30 of the bundle, 30.
CHAIRPERSON: The application of Peter Maluleka, he is the only applicant involved in this particular incident, and seeing that he is here and the others aren't here yet, we will proceed with it.
I would like at this stage as well, for the representatives, perhaps - the representatives, we will do it, only involved in this particular application, to put themselves on record.
MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, I am Will Dreyer, W.J. Dreyer, Counsel from Pretoria Bar, and appearing on behalf of three of the victims involved in this particular incident, to wit Mrs Mathilda Eleanore Ferreira, Mrs Susanna Maria Kruger.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Dreyer, I don't know what is wrong with the system, but we can't hear you.
MR DREYER: I take note of that. Hopefully that has been, I apologise for that. I am W.J. Dreyer, I am Counsel from Pretoria Bar, acting on instruction from Wagener Muller Attorneys, on behalf of three of the victims involved in this incident, which I would broadly refer to as the Juicy Lucy bombing and the particular victims that I appear on behalf of, is Mrs Mathilda Eleanore Ferreira, Mrs Anna Maria Prinsloo and Mrs Alida Maria Claasen.
In principle we oppose the application of the applicant on two bases. At this stage being first of all the non-fulfilment of the requirement of full disclosure in respect of the particular incident in the, as it is taken up in the application of the particular applicants, as well as the fact that we are of the opinion that it does not relate to an act associated with a political objective. As the Court pleases, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dreyer.
MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, I appear for the Truth Commission as the Evidence Leader.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Before we proceed, I would just like to inform those present, that the proceedings will be interpreted. They will be interpreted into English, Afrikaans and which other language will be used Ms Mtanga, will it be ...
INTERPRETER: Northern Sotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Sotho?
INTERPRETER: Yes, Northern Sotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Northern Sotho. To benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices and you just pick the channel for your language, the number at the side here. These devices are present and available in the front. If you want to benefit from the interpretation, please get one of these from the gentleman in the front here, thank you.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, my name is Boka Mohlaba. I am appearing for the applicant in this matter, in particular this application of Peter Maluleka, which we are ready to proceed with.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba. Yes Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, we are ready to proceed with the application of Maluleka, may he take the oath?
PETER MALULEKA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Maluleka. Sorry Mr Mohlaba, before you start, it is very hot here today, if you wish to take off your jackets, please feel free to do so.
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Maluleka, you are the applicant in this matter and you were born on the 5th day of March 1954, can you confirm that?
MR MALULEKA: Yes sir.
MR MOHLABA: For record purposes, where were you born?
MR MALULEKA: Pretoria.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee how you started school and until where you are today?
MR MALULEKA: I started school here in Pretoria, in a place called Eersterus in 1962. I started school in Eersterus because we were living in Eersterus. We were then relocated or moved to Mamelodi in 1964, where I resumed school in 1967. I missed out on two years of schooling, because I couldn't find a suitable school in Mamelodi.
I then left school in 1973, and I started to work for a company called Siemens Telecommunications in 1974, where I worked for 11 years. I left Siemens in 1985, I started by own business as a carpenter. Presently I am the Chairperson of the Executive Committee of the Greater Pretoria Metro, and I am also the Chairperson of the ANC in the Pretoria region.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you. Mr Maluleka, you are applying for amnesty for placing a limpet mine at Church Street in Pretoria, next to Van Aswegen Store and the reason, the basis on which you apply for this amnesty is that this unlawful act was committed with a political objective.
Can you tell this Committee whether you belonged to any political organisation and the name of such organisation?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, at the time when I placed that limpet mine on the pavement in Church Street, I was a member of the African National Congress and I was also a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, which was the military wing of the African National Congress.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee how and when you joined the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR MALULEKA: I first made contact with the ANC in 1978, and I formally joined the organisation in 1985. I underwent training as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe in 1985, 1986.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you undergo your training Mr Maluleka?
MR MALULEKA: Locally here in Pretoria.
MR MOHLABA: Are you able to give more details about your training, what form of training did you undergo, how long did it endure for and if you have names of people who were training you, can you explain that to the Committee?
MR MALULEKA: What I would call the real training, that really took place in 1987, not 1986, 1987. I was trained in the use of machine guns, AK47 pistols and the use of explosives by my then Commander, who name was Odirele Mishack Maponya and my Commissar whose name was Rodney Toka who is also an applicant in this matter before this Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you just repeat that name please? Is that applicant 2, Rodney Abram Moeketsi Toka?
MR MALULEKA: Toka, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MOHLABA: Can you take the Committee through this particular act which you are applying amnesty for? When was it planned and how was it executed with very clear details of everything?
MR MALULEKA: The actual act took place on the 15th of April in 1988. Prior to that, we had several meetings that was between myself and the Commander, who was Odirele Mishack Maponya, that we were going to go into the city to do what we referred to as reconnaissance on the spot, which means that we do not have a prior identified target, which we were going to hit.
We together travelled into town. I was the driver of the car. I dropped off my Commander on the corner of Beatrix and Pretorius Streets, Church Street, excuse me, Beatrix and Church Street.
He was going to identify a target which he was going to hit himself, and I was going to do the same. I went into town, to Van der Walt Street. I was walking around there and I heard that there was an explosion on the corner of Beatrix and Pretorius Streets. I found out later that it was on the corner of Beatrix and Pretorius Streets.
I rushed back there, because to me a terrible accident might have happened, because as far as I was concerned at that time, these explosions should have taken place when we were back in Mamelodi.
CHAIRPERSON: Were the explosive devises that you were to use, were they time set, you had a timer?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, we had a timer. When I got to Pretorius Street, not Pretorius, Beatrix Street, and I couldn't get to the scene of the explosion because there were a lot of people around the area.
I then went back, out of that place and I moved down to Church Street. I must point out that going to Beatrix Street, my intention there was that like I said earlier on, a terrible accident may have happened and that there will be a lot of policemen in that area.
To me, I already had a target but because of the number of people around the area, I just couldn't do what I intended to do, which was to place the mine anywhere where there would be a concentration of police personnel.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain, when you went that morning to do reconnaissance ...
MR MALULEKA: Not in the morning, it was in the evening.
ADV DE JAGER: In the evening, did you take the explosives with you?
MR MALULEKA: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: So you intended planting the explosives that very evening?
MR MALULEKA: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: And you would have planted an explosive on a separate place and Maponya, another one near Beatrix Street, somewhere?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, wherever he chose to.
ADV DE JAGER: Right. When you went back to investigate this accident you are referring to, did you take your explosives with you?
MR MALULEKA: I had it with me.
ADV DE JAGER: So you went to the place where all these people gathered, with the explosives on you?
MR MALULEKA: Yes. I then went down Church Street and I parked the car in front of Van Aswegen. Whilst I was just there in front of Van Aswegen, a number of police personnel came up and it was very clear to me that there would be a lot of Security activity in the area.
I then placed the limpet mine next to the pavement in front of Van Aswegen Stores, and then went back home.
CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you set your timer?
MR MALULEKA: It was for 30 minutes, but I had already lost a number of minutes when I went up to where the first explosion took place.
CHAIRPERSON: I think just for record purposes Mr Maluleka, is Van Aswegen's a type of departmental store?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, it is a departmental store.
CHAIRPERSON: And at what time did you place your device, your limpet mine?
MR MALULEKA: At what time?
CHAIRPERSON: Approximately?
MR MALULEKA: It could have been around past seven o'clock because we were supposed to be in Mamelodi before eight o'clock, we thought it would be announced on the eight o'clock news bulletin.
CHAIRPERSON: Continue?
MR MALULEKA: I then placed the mine there, and left for home. It exploded and caused some damage to the Van Aswegen store and a number of shops around that vicinity and I think the Pretoria Technikon if I am not mistaken.
CHAIRPERSON: Were any people that you know of, injured or killed?
MR MALULEKA: No, there were no casualties.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer, it looks like you've got the wrong application here?
MR DREYER: Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Your victims aren't concerned with this application?
MR DREYER: (Microphone not on?
MR MOHLABA: No, I don't think it is related to what the gentleman has there. I think maybe what caused this, when we were together in one trial and we were all charged with common purpose.
ADV DE JAGER: Were you involved in the planning or the execution of any of the other incidents?
MR MALULEKA: No, not at all.
ADV DE JAGER: Like Juicy Lucy or any of the others mentioned?
MR MALULEKA: No.
ADV DE JAGER: When you left for home, what about your Commander?
MR MALULEKA: The explosive device actually exploded in his hands, and he died on the scene there.
ADV DE JAGER: But shouldn't you have met him somewhere in order to pick him up and take him home?
MR MALULEKA: I knew when this, the time that that device exploded, that some mistake could have happened and I just went back home.
MR MOHLABA: Why did you, Mr Maluleka, choose that spot, that area where you placed that device next to Van Aswegen's?
MR MALULEKA: I didn't choose it, I just happened to be at that place at that time, when I realised that there is a lot of Security presence in the area, and you know, I would rather just do away with the mine at that time.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Maluleka, this is not very clear to me. Without the presence of members of the Security Forces in that area, would you have still have placed this limpet mine in the area?
MR MALULEKA: Without them at that area, yes.
ADV SANDI: Can you explain why you would have done that?
MR MALULEKA: Like I said earlier on, I have already - because when I went up, when I was in Beatrix Street, the mine was already disarmed and I have lost some minutes on it, and it would have been dangerous for me to even go around to look for a target.
The intention when we left for town, was to identify targets and hit it at that time.
ADV SANDI: Was there any specific criteria for the identification of targets?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, there generally was a criteria which had to do with any government, which would relate to government institutions, military institutions or personnel and so forth.
That under normal circumstances, wouldn't be a target.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
ADV DE JAGER: There was no government building around there, there was no military building around there, there was no police station. The reason why you put the limpet mine there, was because of your own safety, you couldn't carry it any further?
MR MALULEKA: I just wanted to get rid of it, yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes. So did you apply your mind whether you could have killed children, other people around there?
MR MALULEKA: Although I didn't think of that at that time, but fortunately there weren't people or children in the vicinity.
Like before us now, no one was injured.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but the reason why you put it down was because you had lost time and it would have been dangerous for yourself to carry it any further?
MR MALULEKA: Not just that, in my mind at that time, it also had some political implications. I think a limpet mine, anywhere in the centre of Pretoria, as far as I was concerned then, would have made a statement.
Pretoria is the capital of our country, and activating a limpet mine in the centre of Pretoria, whether there is a valid target or not, says a lot. I mean it really undermines the security of the country.
MR MOHLABA: Let me take you to your application form in paragraph 10(a), I refer the Committee to page 32 of the paginated bundle. You stated that the political objective was to instil fear and insecurity, so as to demoralise the Security Forces, is that correct, do you confirm that?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, that is exactly what I said now.
MR MOHLABA: Do you Mr Maluleka, have anything to add in support of this application of yours?
MR MALULEKA: They say sometimes, it is very difficult in a time of peace, to reflect on what one did during times of war, but like I say, I am sitting here under different circumstances in our country, and it wasn't the onus of Van Aswegen or whichever shop in that area, that got damaged, has a right to freely operate their businesses without any intimidation or whatever, and I think this at that time, has effected them somehow and that is why I made this application to come and disclose this and to apologise to them for the discomfort that I have caused them.
MR DREYER: Were you ever arrested for committing this offence, and if so, can you give details of any sentence which was cast?
MR MALULEKA: I was arrested and stood trial for about three years, and on the day - I was found guilty, on the day on which I was supposed to be sentenced, that is when my indemnity papers came through. I was actually informed that I have been indemnified.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, that concludes the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maluleka, I just want to get this very clear, so this was the only incident that you were involved in with regard to the placing of limpet mines or bombs in this region?
MR MALULEKA: The only one.
CHAIRPERSON: And you said earlier you were not involved in the planning of any other incidents, together with the Unit or group, I don't know what word you use, that operated under the Command of Mr Maponya?
MR MALULEKA: No. The first time I met them, was when we were on trial.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us just - I don't know if you saw it yourself, but you might have read about it in the media, the extent of the damage caused by the blast at or near Van Aswegen's store.
MR MALULEKA: Can I just?
CHAIRPERSON: The extent of the damage?
MR MALULEKA: I can't exactly say, I didn't see it because - I really can't say now.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us any indication or do you know of the - what sort of mine it was, what sort of capacity did the mine itself have? How did you lug it around?
MR MALULEKA: It was a super limpet mine, because you've got two, the mini and the super, which is the big one, and it can cause a great deal of destruction.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dreyer, do you have any interest in this particular application, from your victims? We don't want just sort of gratuitous cross-examination from somebody who's got no vested interest in it?
MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, the problem that I have is that the documentation that we were furnished with, indicated that at least this applicant as well as one other applicant, was included in the schedule form as being involved in some way or the other, in the Juicy Lucy bombing.
I am at the disadvantage that at this stage, I don't know whether any one of the applicants to follow, will probably admit being involved in any way to that particular incident, but the only basis upon which I would say that at least I have some cross-examination, would be based on the fact that the Juicy Lucy bombing apparently also took place as a part and parcel of - if I may refer to it as the Maponya group activities.
I could merely direct cross-examination as to the method of planning reconnaissance and that sort of thing, if the Commission would allow me.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Dreyer, you have not been instructed on behalf of Van Aswegen, Uithou XT9, the Renault Bicycle shop, Jeka Foam or Lion Bridge.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think there would be much point really Mr Dreyer, in the sense that this applicant is not applying for amnesty for the Juicy Lucy incident. He says he's got nothing to do with it.
If it turns out in fact that he does have anything to do with it, and I am not suggesting Mr Maluleka that you do have anything to do with it, there is other procedures that can be followed.
I am sure you will get an opportunity then. We know from the papers that certain of the other applicants have definitely applied for the Juicy Lucy incident, and that would be the appropriate time to cross-examine.
MR DREYER: Yes Mr Chairman, as I indicated, the basis upon which we were ready to cross-examine, was because of the information contained in the papers so far. But I take note of the Commission's opinion.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. I just want to clear up one point, according to your evidence Mr Maluleka, it is that you came to Pretoria, to the city with Mr Maponya and it was just the two of you?
MR MALULEKA: No, there were three of us. Rodney Toka.
MS MTANGA: Rodney Toka was with you?
MR MALULEKA: Yes.
MS MTANGA: And then you were the driver?
MR MALULEKA: Yes.
MS MTANGA: Where did you drop off the other two?
MR MALULEKA: On the corner of Church and Beatrix Street.
MS MTANGA: So Toka and Maponya were involved in the Juicy Lucy incident?
MR MALULEKA: I know nothing about the Juicy Lucy incident. This has got nothing to do with, what I am saying here, has nothing to do with the Juicy Lucy. I don't even know which Juicy Lucy this is.
MS MTANGA: Oh okay. When you dropped Mr Maponya, where did the explosion occur and Mr Maponya was killed, what was the name of that street, Beatrix?
MR MALULEKA: Beatrix yes, Beatrix and Pretorius I think.
MS MTANGA: And he was with Mr Toka in that incident?
MR MALULEKA: Yes.
MS MTANGA: I just wanted to clear that, who he was with.
MR MALULEKA: Okay.
MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, I've got no questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Adv De Jager, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, was it ever the policy of your organisation, to target civil businesses like Van Aswegen's, Renault Cycling, Lion Bridge during that period?
MR MALULEKA: No, not at all.
ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't act within the policy of your organisation?
MR MALULEKA: No, like I said earlier on, I didn't identify it as a target.
ADV DE JAGER: So, then if you didn't identify it as a target, but you in fact damaged those properties, was it by accident or on purpose?
MR MALULEKA: I would say it was on purpose, because I explained earlier on that it just so happened that Van Aswegen and these other shops were in that vicinity, but like I said, activating a limpet mine in the centre of Pretoria, was really a political statement.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but was it a political statement, or was it the policy or were you instructed by anybody to damage private property in order to make a political statement?
MR MALULEKA: When it comes to the damaging of private property, I mean one could take it as those shops or whatever would be like when people are hit, you know, in cross-fire or whatever, so it wasn't intention to damage those shops.
I don't see those shops as a political target.
ADV DE JAGER: You have also told us that you have already received indemnity for these deeds?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, like I said, when I was supposed to be sentenced on that particular day and the Judge said the indemnity has gone through, and I have been indemnified.
ADV DE JAGER: So it wasn't really necessary for you to apply for amnesty, was it?
MR MALULEKA: Well, I was advised to apply for amnesty, because one never knows. I may just ignore it, and I don't know exactly what is needed.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi, do you have any questions to ask Mr Maluleka?
ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. Mr Maluleka, you say a part of the reason why you decided to place this limpet mine and leave it there, was because you had lost time. Did I understand you correctly on that?
MR MALULEKA: Yes, that was also one factor.
ADV SANDI: Without you having lost time in that situation, would you still have placed this limpet mine for propaganda purposes as you said?
MR MALULEKA: I would, if it wasn't activated, I would have gone around to seek a more suitable target.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Adv Sandi, why did you activate it Mr Maluleka?
MR MALULEKA: Like I said earlier on, I activated it on the way to the first explosion, where I thought there would be a presence of police personnel and that would be for me a legitimate target.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Maluleka, thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, do you have any questions arising out of the questions that have been put to your client, by members of the panel?
MR MOHLABA: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maluleka, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
MR MALULEKA: Thank you so much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. Mr Chairman, I want to submit on behalf of the applicant ...
CHAIRPERSON: You've got no further evidence to lead?
MR MOHLABA: I've got no further evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue?
MR MOHLABA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, I am ready to address the Committee.
I was saying Mr Chairman, that I want to submit on behalf of the applicant, that his application form meets the requirement of the Act and that he has proved political motive and political objective and I submit that there was full disclosure.
I therefore submit that he qualifies for an amnesty and that it should be granted to him. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtanga, do you have any submissions to make?
MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: No Mr Chairman, I will leave it to the Committee.
ADV DE JAGER: Would you say it amounted to a gross violation of human rights, would you say there was an attempt to take any lives or any other aspect that could put it into the category of a gross violation?
MS MTANGA: Having heard the evidence of Mr Maluleka here, my position is that he alleges that they did reconnaissance, but in the way that they put the explosions there, no reconnaissance was done in respect of that area, so they could have been negligent in this regard, with people's lives.
According to evidence, no gross human rights violation was committed. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter. I prefer to hand down written decisions, which would be done as soon as possible. That then concludes the application of Mr Maluleka.
We will now take a short adjournment, I am not - I don't know what the position is relating to the other applicants, whether they have arrived or not, but we will take a short adjournment now and if the legal representatives involved in those other applications, could get together with each other and discuss the matter as we discussed in chambers earlier.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. When we adjourned, I said that we would hopefully be commencing with the other applications after the tea adjournment. We have had further discussions with the legal representatives, and it is apparent that we will not be able to commence today.
There apparently was some misunderstanding and the applicants thought that the application had been postponed and have gone on their various ways, and none of them are here yet. There are two that might be available, but Mr Mohlaba who appears for the applicants, say that they will be leading evidence in a structured manner, commencing with the Commanders and then following it with other applicants and for this reason, we are going to be postponing this matter until tomorrow morning, but we would like, well, we will be starting tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.
We would hope to make up some of the lost time, by just extending our hours of sitting and cutting down lunch to half an hour, that sort of thing and make up the lost time throughout the course of the rest of the week.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
