MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, the only other applicant that I'm going to represent is Mr Nkosi and we will only be ready to proceed with him tomorrow morning. I need to consult with him today. I haven't had an opportunity to consult with him yet.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, are you in a position to commence with one of your remaining clients?
MR MOHLABA: ...(no audible reply)
CHAIRPERSON: Well we're going to treat this whole lot as one - I mean we've heard all about, we can't start splitting out the evidence we've already heard. Mr Toka has given evidence concerning it, so their application is, I mean each application is a separate application but this is a hearing in respect of the eight applicants here. The only one that was treated separately was the very first applicant that we heard on Monday, because the incident that he was involved in was peculiar to him and him alone.
MR MOHLABA: That is correct, we are indeed ready to proceed and we would however want to ask for a short adjournment just to sort out the logistic as to who is getting called first.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, we'll have a short adjournment for five or ten minutes and then you can let us know.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair. I wish to call Mr Legodi, Reginald Noah Legodi who is the 7th applicant. Mr Legodi would want to testify in Sotho.
INTERPRETER: What Sotho is that, North or South Sotho?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, the interpreter has asked what Sotho, Northern or Southern. Northern Sotho?
REGINALD NOAH LEGODI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair. Mr Legodi will be applying for amnesty for the grenade attack at Ndala's place, that's malicious damage to property, and also for a grenade attack at Mphahlele's place, another malicious damage to property and he will also apply for amnesty for escape from lawful custody. CHAIRPERSON: The first two items he's applying for, wouldn't that involve an attempted murder? Wasn't that the purpose of the using of the hand-grenade?
MR MOHLABA: It appears not to be the case.
CHAIRPERSON: I think probably what would be ...(intervention)
MR MOHLABA: It would appear I believe in ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He applies for attempted murder on his documentation, so I think if the Commission is of the view that there was an attempted murder and is also at the end of the day of the view that there should be amnesty granted, then it's been asked for, for attempted murder. We will listen to the evidence and see whether there is an attempted murder there as well.
I also might add that usually, certainly what my approach has been is that if people apply for amnesty in respect of lets say, murder and there is the use of a bomb, that that would also include the unlawful possession of an explosive device.
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair, certainly that is the case.
Mr Legodi, you were borne in Pretoria during 1966, is that correct?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: What is your present occupation?
MR LEGODI: I'm a sergeant in the South African National Defence Force.
MR MOHLABA: Were you during the period April 1988 and May 1988, a member of a political organisation and if that is the case, tell us the name of such organisation.
MR LEGODI: I'm a member of the ANC and their military wing, that is MK.
MR MOHLABA: Do you remember when you joined the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR LEGODI: Yes, I think about 1988, if I'm not mistaken. Around March of that year.
MR MOHLABA: Can you tell this Commission of the manner in which you came to join this organisation, that is how were you recruited into the organisation and ...(intervention)
MR LEGODI: It was through James Gasi, together with Rodney Toka.
MR MOHLABA: And after you had joined, did you undergo any training as a member of the MK and if you underwent the training can you explain the nature of the training given to you and where was the training conducted?
MR LEGODI: I received the first training which was about how to use the pistols and other weapons. After that we were trained in the handling of grenades. We received that training around Mamelodi.
MR MOHLABA: In your application form that is on paragraph 7 - I refer the Committee to page 44 of the paginated bundle, you have mentioned that you were a commissar of a unit, what is the name of this unit and who did it consist of?
MR LEGODI: The name of the unit was Maqidindaba and the members of the unit were myself, Reuben Kgotsa and James Gasi.
MR MOHLABA: On or about the 15th of April 1988, were you responsible as a commander of this unit?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And do you remember an incident on the 15th of April 1988, where there was a grenade attack at Mphahlele's residence?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to this Committee how was this attack planned and carried out?
MR LEGODI: It was myself and Reuben Kgotsa. We made surveillance at that particular house for several days. After that we informed Mr Rodney Toka, together with the late, that is Mainstay Mapoina(?). After some few days they gave us an order to go ahead with the attack.
MR MOHLABA: You mentioned that you kept the property under surveillance and then reported to Mr Toka. Can you tell the Committee what you reported, what you said to Mr Toka?
MR LEGODI: We told them that there was a police who was staying in Tsakane. That is another section in Mamelodi. It was not far from the section where I stayed. We made a suggestion that that policeman should be attacked.
Rodney Toka said he will give us the feedback at a later stage. Thereafter he gave us an information that we should go ahead with the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was there any reason why you suggested that that particular policeman should be attacked? Was it because he was a policeman or was there any other particular reason?
MR LEGODI: The first reason was because he was a policeman, because of the situation at that time the police were not wanted within the township. That is why we decided that he should be attacked.
MR MOHLABA: And do you know the names of this policeman, other than the surname?
MR LEGODI: If I remember well I knew his name after but I think it's Ronald Muthelezi or Buthelezi.
MR MOHLABA: Can you proceed and explain to the Commission what happened after you go the go-ahead to attack him.
MR LEGODI: After we were given that order we sat down to plan about what to use and the road we should take. We made a decision that we should take an AK47 and a hand-grenade, and one AK47. We went to that particular house.
MR MOHLABA: Who was in your company?
MR LEGODI: It was myself and Reuben Kgotsa.
MR MOHLABA: Are you referring to Thapelo Reuben Kgotsa who is the 4th applicant in this matter?
MR LEGODI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Can you proceed and tell the full details as to what happened on that day in question.
MR LEGODI: We went to that house. I had a hand-grenade and Kgotsa was having an AK47. We went to that particular house. We passed that house and we came back again. We observed the situation in that house, then I told Reuben to go a little bit down to protect me then I'll do the attack. Then I threw the hand-grenade in that house, then it exploded.
MR MOHLABA: Do you know if anybody was injured in that attack?
MR LEGODI: Nobody was injured in that particular attack, it was only malicious damage to property.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you intend to kill Ronald Buthelezi the policeman, your target then or did you just intend to damage the property there when you threw that hand-grenade?
MR LEGODI: We were intending to kill.
CHAIRPERSON: This house, could you describe it, was it a one-roomed house, two, three, four, what sort of house was it?
MR LEGODI: It was a one-roomed house.
MR MOHLABA: Were you aware whether ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MR MOHLABA: Were you aware whether Buthelezi was staying alone in that one-roomed house or whether he had a family?
MR LEGODI: I'm not sure as to whether he was staying with some members of the family but I knew that he was staying there, he was renting that house. If I'm not wrong he came from - I believe he came from Venda.
MR MOHLABA: And this hand-grenade which was thrown to this property, was it aimed at this one-roomed house?
MR LEGODI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And the damage, was it only focused or concentrated on that house, on that one-roomed house or are you not aware?
MR LEGODI: If I remember well the windows at the next-door house were damaged.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Legodi, when you say you threw the hand-grenade, did you throw it through the window or against the wall of the house or on the roof, what was the position?
MR LEGODI: The way we planned we wanted to throw it through the window but it happened that it fell on the wall.
CHAIRPERSON: So you missed the window? You threw it with the intention to hit it but you missed the window.
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: So in carrying out this attack you were intending to eliminate this police officer, is it your case that he was viewed as a stumbling block to the realisation of the political objectives of your movement?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Legodi, was the intended victim present at that time?
MR LEGODI: I'm not able to say that he was there but in terms of our surveillance he was supposed to be in the house.
CHAIRPERSON: If he is following his usual habits he should have been there but you weren't sure whether or not he was there. Were there lights on? What time of the day was it, was it night-time?
MR LEGODI: It was at night, approximately 11 o'clock at night.
CHAIRPERSON: Were the lights on inside or were the lights off?
MR LEGODI: The lights were off.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you keep the room under surveillance for any part of that evening or for the whole evening or didn't you watch the house during the evening?
MR LEGODI: We started surveillance the day before the, or the week before the attack.
MR MOHLABA: Before throwing this hand-grenade on this date in question, did you make a surveillance to that area to establish whether he was there or not?
MR LEGODI: According to our agreement Reuben was supposed to go there and make surveillance later, then we met later to make an appointment.
MR MOHLABA: Did you establish from Reuben whether he went there before an attack was carried out?
MR LEGODI: Yes, he went.
CHAIRPERSON: There's just one point that I can't quite understand, Mr Legodi. You said that you kept the house under surveillance for about a week and yet you don't know whether the intended victim was staying in the house with his family or not. Did you see any other people in the house during that week, other than the intended victim?
MR LEGODI: We established that there were people staying in the main house, not in that one-roomed house which was separate from the main house.
CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you were concerned the separate one-roomed house was occupied solely by the intended victim, Buthelezi?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And in carrying out your attack you ensured that the people in the main house do not get injured, did you try and ensure that?
MR LEGODI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And during the time of - at the moment of this attack or during that period, you were heading this unit consisting of yourself and the other two comrades, is that correct?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And can you explain to the Committee whether you at one stage handed over your duties as a commander of the unit to somebody else?
MR LEGODI: I handed my powers to Reuben Kgotsa because in many instances I was not present, I was at work. I did that because when our senior commanders, that is Toka and company, when they come they would meet him and give him the feedback.
MR MOHLABA: Let us now move over Mr Legodi ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: How far from the window were you standing when you threw this hand-grenade?
MR LEGODI: It may be approximately 10 metres.
ADV DE JAGER: And you missed the window?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
Can we now move over to the attack at Ndala's place that was during May 1998, is that correct?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And this attack was also carried out by your unit, that is the unit known as Maqidindaba, is that correct?
MR MOHLABA: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And who was heading this unit at the time of this attack?
MR LEGODI: At the time it was Reuben Kgotsa.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain with full details how this attack was planned and carried out?
MR LEGODI: It's Kgotsa who recommended for this attack because it was alleged that Mr Ndala was an informer. There was a certain policeman named, Mr Hlongwane if I'm not mistaken, who used to frequent the place.
Then we saw that we're going to have a problem. He used to arrive during the day. We sat down and discussed about this issue and then informed our seniors.
MR MOHLABA: Yes, proceed and explain what happened next.
MR LEGODI: After that we received an approval that we should go ahead and we attacked the house. But the way we attacked this house was not that we wanted to kill, we wanted to throw the hand-grenade outside because we wanted to scare them off and show them that we are observing them and that we had a problem about that policeman who is Hlongwane, that we wanted to attack him.
We did not have the right opportunity to attack Mr Hlongwane who was the policeman. If I remember well windows were damaged.
MR MOHLABA: Who carried out this attack, can you explain?
MR LEGODI: Reuben threw the hand-grenade. I was at the corner trying to disturb anybody who may come near us.
MR MOHLABA: And who supplied you with the arms to carry out this attack?
MR LEGODI: They came from Rodney Toka.
MR MOHLABA: Are you aware whether any person was injured in this attack?
MR LEGODI: If I remember well nobody was injured in that attack.
MR MOHLABA: You have explained to this Commission that there was information about the Ndala's or somebody at Ndala's family who was selling out to the Security Forces, how did this information come to you, can you remember?
MR LEGODI: I did not say he was an informer, I'm saying we were suspecting, we had a suspicion that he was an informer and that is why we threw the hand-grenade outside the house, just near the house, because it was just a warning.
MR MOHLABA: And thereafter you learnt or had this suspicion, you went back to your commanders explained to them that we are suspecting that these people or this person is selling out, and they did what they did and came back to you and authorised you to carry out the attack, is that correct?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Were you advised of the step they took to verify the information or were you not privy to such information by virtue of you being an operative as opposed to a commander?
MR LEGODI: We did not know how they operated, we would only gather information and hand it over to them. We did not know who they would go about making a decision.
MR MOHLABA: And if a decision is taken by your commanders and orders are handed down to you to carry out an attack, did you have an option to refuse or were you compelled to carry out such orders?
MR LEGODI: An order is an order, you must only comply or suggest something which may be considered.
ADV DE JAGER: What would happen to you if you would say, no I'm not prepared to kill somebody, I won't obey this order?
MR LEGODI: May you please repeat your question?
ADV DE JAGER: What would happen to you if you were to tell your commander, no I'm not prepared to kill somebody, I'm not prepared to murder Mr X, I won't carry out the order, what would they do to you?
MR LEGODI: I don't know, I didn't know what they would do but I knew that I took a decision to join MK and therefore I've got to execute orders from the MK instructions.
ADV DE JAGER: But that was voluntarily, you need not obey the order, you obeyed it because you wanted to obey it.
MR LEGODI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you received - in your training, were you not told of the consequences of failure to obey orders and what discipline was expected of you as an operative?
MR LEGODI: Yes, it was part of our basic training.
CHAIRPERSON: So what did they say to you, what would be the punishment if you disobeyed the orders, if there was any punishment at all?
MR LEGODI: They would take a decision. I would not say they would do 1, 2, 3, I would not know what they would do.
CHAIRPERSON: It would depend on the circumstances?
MR LEGODI: I think so.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
Were you ever arrested and tried in respect of these two attacks?
MR LEGODI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: And it was heard in the earlier evidence that you are part of the people who escaped from the Modderbee Prison before the trial commenced, is that correct?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: So you also apply for an amnesty in respect of escaping from lawful custody and leaving the country unlawfully?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry.
Have you applied for indemnity?
MR LEGODI: Yes, I did.
ADV DE JAGER: In respect of these two offences of throwing the hand-grenade and the escaping?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: And were you granted indemnity?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, that will conclude the evidence of Mr Legodi.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Molefe, do you have any questions to put to the applicant?
MR MOLEFE: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokone?
MR MOKONE: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOKONE
CHAIRPERSON: Is Ms Monyane here? Ms Monyane, do you have any questions to put?
MS MONYANE: ...(inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Monyane does not have a microphone in front of her, and just for the record she indicates that she has no questions to put.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MONYANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer?
MR DREYER: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER
MR MAPOMA: Mr Joubert?
MR JOUBERT: No questions, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I do have a few, thank you.
Mr Legodi, did you personally know Mr Ndala?
MR LEGODI: Yes, I did.
MS MTANGA: For how long had you known him before the incident?
MR LEGODI: I was not staying far from his place, I think it's the 2nd, the 3rd street from where he was staying.
MS MTANGA: Did you know Mr Hlongwana, the policeman that used to visit him?
MR LEGODI: Yes, I do.
MS MTANGA: For how long had you known Mr Hlongwana before the incident?
MR LEGODI: Who?
MS MTANGA: Mr Hlongwana. How long had you known Mr Hlongwana before this attack on Mr Ndala?
MR LEGODI: Approximately 2 to 3 years.
MS MTANGA: In your opinion would you say Mr Ndala knew of your political activities in your unit?
MR LEGODI: May you please clarify your question, I don't understand.
CHAIRPERSON: The question being asked by Ms Mtanga is, do you know whether Mr Ndala knew of your political activism in that you were a member of this unit, that you were a member of MK?
MR LEGODI: No, he did not know.
MS MTANGA: ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
MS MTANGA: Do you know what information he was suspected to be passing on to the policeman? You said he was suspected of being, of informing, that means you attacked his house acting on suspicion and what I want to know is, what information were you suspecting him to be passing on?
MR LEGODI: I won't be able to specify what kind of information he was passing through but I knew that Mr Hlongwane was a policeman and he used to frequent his house.
Secondly, the way they met, they did not meet once but they used to meet many times.
MS MTANGA: Are you able to tell this Committee whether Mr Hlongwane and Ndala were friends or suddenly they became friends and then you were suspicious of that friendship?
MR LEGODI: Even if they were friends at that time, anybody who was associating himself with the police it would happen that he was an informer or something like that.
MS MTANGA: Were you aware, Mr Legodi, that one of the girls or a woman brought up by Mr Ndala was involved in MK activities and she was in fact in Lusaka at the time of the attack?
MR LEGODI: I'm aware of that and that is why we suspected that he was one of the informers. We knew that one who was staying at Ndala's place, one of the daughters who were staying at Ndala's place is in Lusaka.
MS MTANGA: Was Mr Hlongwane the policeman, known to your unit or generally in the community to be prying on information or activities of the politically active people in the community?
MR LEGODI: He was well-known by the community.
MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Mohlaba, do you have any re-examination?
MR MOHLABA: None, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Jager, do you have any questions?
ADV DE JAGER: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, do you have any questions?
ADV SANDI: Just one, Chair.
Mr Legodi, can you tell us more about this Mr Hlongwane you've just mentioned. You say he was a policeman, where was he stationed?
MR LEGODI: He was a member of the special branch stationed at Compol Building in Pretorius Street in Pretoria, next to Home Affairs offices.
ADV SANDI: Was Mr Ndala involved in any organisation?
MR LEGODI: According to my information he was not a member of any political organisation.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I just didn't hear. Mr Legodi, after your escape, did you leave the country?
MR LEGODI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from questions put by Mr Sandi?
MR MOHLABA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, I just want to place on record that Mr Ndala is not opposing this application.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. I take it there is no further questions.
Mr Legodi, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
MR LEGODI: Thank you, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wonder if I could not be, I wanted leave to call my next witness tomorrow.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get some perspective here. We discussed it earlier but of the applicants that are left there are three, are there, Mr Kgotsa, Mr Kgase and Nkosi.
MR MOHLABA: I'm calling two more applicants and I believe that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Then Mr Molefe might be calling the one more. We will be calling one more, that's three. Yes, and then there may or may not be any further evidence.
ADV DE JAGER: In connection with what incidents are the other two applicants?
MR MOHLABA: The other two applicants are linked to the very applicant. One of them is linked to, it's a co-applicant in respect of the two attacks which Mr Legodi was testifying about and he's involved in a third incident wherein Mr Legodi was involved, where the remaining applicant is involved.
ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) evidence before 4 o'clock?
MR MOHLABA: Certainly we can, as long as I can be awarded a small break because I thought that we could run with Mr Legodi the ...
CHAIRPERSON: I think seeing that it's already quarter to four and there looks like a good prospect that we'll probably finish the evidence sometime during the course of tomorrow, that we'll adjourn now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Would 9 o'clock be suitable? And then if we do conclude the evidence then as I said earlier at the start of the hearings, we'll just have oral arguments straight off after the conclusion of evidence.
We will start tomorrow's proceedings with addresses on this question of whether or not the witness, Mr Pitsi should be compelled to disclose the names of a person or persons who divulged certain information to him.
We'll then adjourn now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning at this venue, thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
