MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr S.A. Oosthuizen.
MR POLSEN: Mr Chairman, might I just say one thing, we have been referred to Exhibit D by I think my learned friend, Mr Du Plessis.
These documents have not formally been admitted as part of these proceedings. I believe everybody now has copies of it. Perhaps I should just inform everybody where it comes from. We found a part of the record on Internet which is not contained in the Bundles before you and we made these extracts from that, and I must emphasise that these are only extracts which I at the time when I made them, thought to be relevant. It is not the complete record, but other than that, if everybody is satisfied to accept those extracts, then of course it might be admitted, but it hasn't been formally admitted.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to make use of it as part of the evidence or to refer to it during the argument?
MR POLSEN: I was going to yes, Mr Chairman, but it has already been referred to by my learned friend, Mr Du Plessis.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR POLSEN: And it hasn't got any status before you at the moment, really.
CHAIRPERSON: Well now, shall we designate it as an Exhibit? This document will be received as Exhibit D.
MR POLSEN: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.
STEFANUS ADRIAAN OOSTHUIZEN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Rossouw on record on behalf of Mr Oosthuizen.
Mr Chairman, you will find the application of Mr Oosthuizen, on pages 92 in Bundle 7 and onwards.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, you have a copy of your amnesty application before you?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You apply for amnesty in this incident for an accomplice in this incident.
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Have you read the previous pages or would you like to make any amendments?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I would just like to make an amendment in terms of the identity number. The 9 thereof should be a 5 Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You refer to the last 9?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The last 9 where?
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, the identity number of the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, yes thank you.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, can I take you to page 103, it is an annexure to your amnesty application. Under paragraph 7(a) you set out the general background, is that correct?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You confirm this?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, I do.
MR ROSSOUW: And paragraph 8(a) and (b)?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And then as part of your amnesty application, you had been referred to the evidence of Gen Van der Merwe in the Cronje 5 incident and with regards to the broad background in that situation, do you want this to be incorporated into your amnesty application?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, this is in Bundle 2(A), pages 58 - 117.
Mr Oosthuizen, you have also been referred and you have knowledge of the submission of Gen Van der Merwe to the TRC, and you wish that to be incorporated as part of your background of your application?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, you will find this in Bundle 2(I), pages 1 - 29. Mr Oosthuizen, you had been referred to the evidence of Mr Vlok in the Khotso House incident and the evidence that was rendered there, about the onslaught of communism and the combating thereof by the Security Forces?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And you would like your amnesty application to be read in conjunction with that? Mr Chairman, you will find this evidence on pages 41 - 57.
CHAIRPERSON: Just give me that again.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, this is the evidence of Min Vlok, pages 41 - page 87 on the first day hearing of the Khotso House record. I have a copy thereof available with me, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, then you were referred to the evidence of Brigadier Cronje in the Cronje 5 hearing, with regards to the general background of the Cronje 5, and you would like this to be read with your application?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, this you will find in Bundle 2(A), pages 123 - 180.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, you were also referred to the decision of the Amnesty Committee with regards to the Cronje 5, and specifically the background, that was a summary of the evidence to which we have referred to now.
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And more specifically you request that the part of the judgement of the Amnesty Committee by read along with your amnesty application?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, at the incident where Mr Piet Ntuli died in this bomb explosion, could you just tell the Committee, at that stage you were with the Special Investigation Team in KwaNdebele, what did you do there and what was the purpose of your investigation there?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I was part of an investigation group that was established at Police Headquarters. The investigation team were all Detectives. We were led by Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk, and we had to report to Gen Bert Wandrag at that stage.
We worked throughout the country and at all places in the country where there were unrest, this is where we concentrated. We were assisting the local Investigation Teams with their investigations. We worked with the uniform unit, Unit 19, that is today known as a Stabilising Unit, Internal Stability Unit, at that stage they did not have that name.
We became aware of unrests in KwaNdebele, but we never paid any attention to it, up to a stage when Gen Wandrag gave instruction that this Investigation Team along with Unit 19, had to visit that area and us as an Investigation Team, had the instruction to investigate approximately 300 murders and emanating from the unrest, the Unit 19 members acted in a more visible policing aspect.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, who was at the Head of this Investigative Unit in KwaNdebele?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: It was Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you please tell the Committee briefly where your basis was, where did you launch your investigations from?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: We worked from a house where we lived, it served as a house and office, in the Waterworks camp in Siyabuswa.
MR ROSSOUW: With regards to the general political situation in KwaNdebele, the incidents of murders were being investigated by you. During your investigation, did you have information where Minister Piet Ntuli was involved with murders and other unrest related incidents?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson, with our arrival we did not have a good background as to where these murders had emanated from. We learnt quickly that it was politically orientated.
We received statements from people who confirmed under oath that Mr Piet Ntuli was involved with certain murders and other intimidations as well as assaults and as Colonel Kendall had said, he was involved with illegal arms as well as stolen vehicles.
Although we did not concentrate thereon, at a stage we got as far that we had certainty, reasonable certainty where Mr Piet Ntuli was involved with, and we could prove it, although we did not, could not get the witnesses to give evidence, because they had been exposed to intimidation.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, my next question is with the witnesses that you had had, could you charge him successfully?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: There was no possibility that we could bring the matter before Court, because it was an absolute, there was violent intimidation in the area and some of our witnesses had after we had taken statements from them, they had disappeared.
We suspect that they fled because we could not contact them again. Therefore Chairperson, we could not bring the matter before Court.
MR ROSSOUW: Is it correct that some of these people's houses and businesses were burnt down?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, KwaNdebele at that stage looked like a place of war, there were several houses and businesses that were burnt down to the ground.
MR ROSSOUW: Against this background, you mention on page 105 that you were approached by Captain Hechter to assist himself and members of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch. What led to this and where did this happen?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I could say that there was a position of trust between myself, Deon Gouws, Jacques Hechter and Brigadier Jack Cronje.
At that stage, we were dealing with this investigations in KwaNdebele, therefore we had first hand experience as to what Piet Ntuli was involved in and Hechter approached me at a stage, or Gouws and myself, and told us that an operation was to be launched.
Piet Ntuli was identified that he had to be eliminated. I cannot say today where this meeting had taken place or where this decision was conveyed, whether it was in Pretoria or in Siyabuswa itself.
MR ROSSOUW: Let's ask you the following question, when you became aware that such a plan had existed, was it your impression that the plan had been authorised at a higher level?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I had accepted that if such an instruction had come, it would have come from a higher level than Jacques Hechter or Jack Cronje, but I cannot today say who or at what level such a decision was taken.
MR ROSSOUW: During these procedures evidence was heard that a decision was taken at a high, a very high level that had identified this target, you had no knowledge thereof?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: No, I did not and I was not part of any discussion.
MR ROSSOUW: Were you aware that Mr Ntuli was identified as a target, did you accept that it was necessary and why?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I had absolutely accepted that it was necessary, firstly because I knew that the Security Branch would have done their homework, and on the other hand, I knew exactly or I had reasonable knowledge what Piet Ntuli was involved with.
The only solution would have been, because the intimidation at that area was at such a stage that we could not take him into custody.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, let us proceed to the day of the operation. Can you tell the Committee what had happened there?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I must just mention that a certain vague incidents, or parts. I can recall the particular day when Brigadier Jack Cronje and Captain Jacques Hechter were at the camp and office, at the Waterworks camp where we had stayed. I can recall that they were in discussion with Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk.
I did not participate in the discussion, I don't know what was discussed there. I cannot recall. But later during that day, on an open field opposite the government offices, we were together. If Deon Gouws and I drove with them to this open field, I am not certain thereof, but we did have a braai there.
If I can recall correctly, I was aware that a bomb would be placed under Piet Ntuli's vehicle. Mr Jaap van Jaarsveld was also present. I would just like to correct myself, Mr Jaap van Jaarsveld was present as well.
MR ROSSOUW: Excuse me Mr Oosthuizen, did you know where the bomb came from?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I don't know where the bomb was manufactured or where it came from. That was handled by Jacques Hechter, but during the braai it became known that it was a bomb that was custom made for a Cressida and that it would be placed under the vehicle if the opportunity had arisen.
I can also recall that Mr Chris Kendall at some stage arrived there. I can recall that Mr Jaap van Jaarsveld and myself remained with the vehicle in the open field, that Deon Gouws, Jacques Hechter, Mr Kendall and Brigadier Jack Cronje went into the government grounds.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you please explain this set-up, this complex and the open field that you have mentioned, what does it look like there?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: The open field is not too far from Siyabuswa Police station, one could see the Police station, it was right opposite the gate where the vehicles would exit from the government grounds. I cannot say today whether there was a high wall or a high fence around the government grounds.
We were in such a position that if we saw Piet Ntuli's vehicle, we would have identified it.
MR ROSSOUW: The members whom you identified went into the grounds, did you know what they were to do there, that they would place the bomb?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I was aware of that.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you know who would place the bomb?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I knew Jacques Hechter would place the bomb under the vehicle because I could understand that he was informed as to how to mount this bomb.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you continue, what was your further role in this incident?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I waited outside with Mr Van Jaarsveld at the vehicle. The members returned, Jacques Hechter explained that there was a device that would activate the bomb.
I said that I would handle the device.
MR ROSSOUW: But you have heard in the statement of Mr Kendall that you and Mr Van Jaarsveld had an argument as to who would detonate the device?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Can I explain in this manner, I don't think that there was a reason as to who would activate the bomb, but there were two devices and both would have had the same effect, Gouws had one and I had one.
The one would have served as a backup if the technological equipment did not work. I offered to activate the bomb.
MR ROSSOUW: Is there any reason why you offered to activate the device?
ADV DE JAGER: Did you activate it?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, I did Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And together with this, you devised certain plans as to where and when the bomb would be activated?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: We were informed that after the activation took place, there would be a ten second delay built therein, and we knew that if he was driving at 30 or 40 kilometres per hour, I can't recall what we said then, but when one waits, if the car would disappear behind Siyabuswa Police station, and then 10 seconds thereafter, he would be in an area where there were no houses on both sides of the road, and that was part of the planning.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you tell the Committee about the execution of the explosion? How did you observe it?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: The vehicle disappeared behind Siyabuswa Police station, the button was pressed and the vehicle disappeared around a corner in this quiet area that we had in mind, and the bomb exploded.
I cannot tell you Mr Chairperson, whether I drove passed there directly or either directly thereafter or at some stage, I drove passed the wreckage. I can also not tell you whether I went back to Pretoria that evening or whether I slept in Siyabuswa.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well, after this operation, can you give the Committee an indication whether there was a depletion in the unrest in KwaNdebele, did it have an influence?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, there was definitely a change. It could be largely attributed to the shock that went through the community as well as the uncertainty as to who was responsible for the bomb.
Not long thereafter, we were withdrawn from the area and the investigation had continued. We had to leave the investigation in the hands of Brigadier Lerm who was involved with the KwaNdebele Police at that stage.
MR ROSSOUW: Then on page 107 you deal with the political objective behind this operation. You refer to the political background in KwaNdebele at that stage, and you also refer to the application of Colonel Kendall, which you have also studied. Do you confirm that?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Do you confirm that aspect of your application?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, I do.
MR ROSSOUW: And then with regard to the necessity of the operation, onto page 108, do you confirm that?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, I do.
MR ROSSOUW: During this operation, is it correct that you were under the command of Captain Cronje, or Brigadier Cronje?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And you executed his orders?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: And those of Captain Hechter?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did I understand him to have referred to one Gen Wandrag?
MR ROSSOUW: Indeed Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, in what respect was this reference made? What position did he hold within your Unit?
What position did Gen Wandrag hold in your Unit?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Gen Wandrag was Head of the Unrest Counter Insurgency Unit at Head Office in Pretoria. All the Unrest Units resided below him and he was also in control of Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk, under whose control I was.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Would I be correct in saying that the chain of command would be, would report to Mr Van Wyk and Mr Van Wyk would report to Gen Wandrag?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct as far as it concerned the investigations, the investigations on ground level.
We were an Investigative Unit or a Special Investigative Unit which was allocated to the Unrest Units, which were uniform branches to launch investigations, and that is how we arrived in KwaNdebele.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And you would have been, Gen Wandrag would have been the person to have given you instructions to participate in any operation whilst you were in KwaNdebele, is it not so?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I can't agree with that Chairperson.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why not?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: He was in charge of the uniform division, and we were part of the uniform division at that stage, with regard to unrest.
But the order came from him to investigate the murders in KwaNdebele, but the report back while the investigations were under way, was not directly to him. I would rather not make any statements regarding that, in terms of who Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk reported to. I would rather not say anything, because we were never involved with that.
However, I was never aware of his knowledge or his involvement in the Ntuli matter. If that would be of assistance to you.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It is of assistance, and it causes me problems. I am sure it will be taken up by Mr Rossouw in due course.
CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will take an adjournment and resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
STEFANUS ADRIAAN OOSTHUIZEN: (still under oath)
ADV DE JAGER: My honourable colleague has already fixed your attention on that, your applicant did not fall under the command in the line of command, he did not fall below Brigadier Jack Cronje, why did he receive orders from him?
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: (continued) As it pleases you Chairperson. Mr Oosthuizen, you have heard the Committee's question, you received your orders from Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter, could you tell the Committee in relation to this, what co-operation existed between the Investigative Team and the Security Branch which operated in that area?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, it was so in the light of the fact that we worked in that area, and that we conducted investigations there, that there was narrow liaison between us and the Security Branch of the Northern Transvaal and more specifically with Jacques Hechter and Brigadier Jack Cronje.
We had to consult certain things by their orders and handled certain matters, so there was very close liaison between our Investigative Team and the Security Branch of the Northern Transvaal. With regard to the execution of this elimination of Piet Ntuli, we fell directly below Jacques Hechter and Brigadier Jack Cronje.
In so far as it regarded the execution of that operation, as well as the exchange of information beforehand and afterwards.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you not have to obtain permission from your Commander to serve below the command of another Commander?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, at that stage and under those circumstances in the country, it happened frequently that there would be an overlapping between Units as far as it concerned work and the execution of investigations, and more specifically with regard to this case, I accept - I don't know which discussions took place between Cronje and Van Wyk. I accepted that they had approached me and Gouws and that there was a confidential system among us and that this took place upon a need to know basis, also with regard to my Commander.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But did you speak to Mr Van Wyk to find out if this had been cleared with him?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why did you not, in your evidence, let me remind you, you have stated that Captain Hechter approached you in a position of trust?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct. There was a narrow position of confidence between the two of us, and because at that stage, we had already worked for quite some time, on the same problem, he gave me the order as well as to Gouws, to assist them with this action and also to provide support should anything happen, which could possibly - we were to support them should something go wrong.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When he approached you, he obviously made no suggestion that he had obtain authority for you to assist him from your immediate superior? Your evidence also does not suggest that?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, it was so within the Police and with regard to that case, it was so that if a member of the Force or a junior member of the Force such as I was at that stage, I was obliged to carry out the orders of any Officer and especially with regard to these members that I worked with, if he was my senior.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When that person was not the person to whom you reported? I would find that very strange?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Actually it was so that we also reported to him with regard to many aspects of what happened, and people that were involved, as well as the information that we could gather from that area, with special significance for the political aspect to the matter.
We reported to Jacques Hechter and Brigadier Cronje.
CHAIRPERSON: Could it have ever occurred to you not to carry out the orders of Hechter? Could that have been possible?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, would you repeat the question please?
CHAIRPERSON: Could it ever have been possible for you to turn around and tell Mr Hechter that you are not carrying out his orders?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I did not see it in that light, I also did not consider it. I accepted that he was my senior and that Brigadier Jack Cronje was my senior, and that they were competent to issue such orders.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, perhaps just at this point, we know that Brigadier Cronje was a Brigadier, what was your rank?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I was a Warrant Officer.
MR ROSSOUW: So you were a junior officer, a subordinate officer?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Could you tell the Committee, you have said that you did not consider it, but would there have been any consequences for you if you were to disobey a senior officer and not carry out his orders?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That would mean contempt of order.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Oosthuizen, you have also referred to the co-operation in KwaNdebele between your Investigative Unit and the Security Branch there. Did your team have access to the information of the Security Police, was information ever exchanged, did you cooperate in these investigations and were you also given orders to study certain aspects with regard to the investigation?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct, we were in that position and we also did so. With regard to KwaNdebele, we would study Security reports, we were also give orders from time to time, to look at ... (tape ends) ... and to convey this to the Security Branch of the Northern Transvaal.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was your immediate superior?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he aware of the fact that you were accepting and carrying out orders given by Hechter or Cronje?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Not as far as I know.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I be correct in saying that you never were given any orders by Brigadier Cronje, particularly in this instance, you only were given orders by Captain Hechter and not Brigadier Cronje?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Captain Hechter did inform me that his orders came from Brigadier Cronje. And also on the day of the action against Ntuli, Brigadier Jack Cronje acted as the Commander of this operation, and the decision making resided exclusively with him regarding who would do what. That is as far as I know.
MR ROSSOUW: Sorry Mr Chairman, can I just - one further aspect in this regard. Mr Oosthuizen, we know that at that stage there was a state of emergency in the country, could you tell the Committee whether within the Security Forces, let us first refer to the Police and the various units which existed, was there a rigid line of command or would there be more co-operation exactly in light of the security situation and the co-operation, or would there necessarily have been more co-operation between the various units?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is absolutely the case. Because everything was about a mutual goal, with regard to the investigation and the management of the security situation in the country, I remember many cases in which we as junior members of the Investigative Unit served under the command of wherever we were busy with an investigation. We would serve directly under the command and the orders of who was in control there.
Especially in cases where Brigadier Daantjie van Wyk could not always be available, because he was not always present.
ADV DE JAGER: You answered the question of the Chairperson that you did not receive any other orders than I think he asked whether Daantjie van Wyk gave any orders in this regard? I have not phrased this question very clearly - your answer was that you did not receive orders from anybody else than Jack Cronje or Daantjie van Wyk.
I can't remember the question very well, but I think you may have misunderstood the question. Did you not with regard to the killing of Ntuli, on any other level, did you ever receive orders from Hechter and Cronje?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Over and above the Piet Ntuli incident, I also received orders from Cronje and Hechter with regard to which persons we needed to gather information about, and also about obtaining information about certain areas and studying documents.
It was not the only instance where I received orders from Jack Cronje.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: This was the only instance where you received an order to participate in the elimination of a person and the orders that you received seems to suggest that they were in relation to some investigative work. In this case it was an operation that involved an elimination of a person. You have never received such orders from any of the two persons you have mentioned, before, this was the first time, is that not so?
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, before my client answers the question, can I just for perhaps caution sake, state that the applicant is also applying for the KwaNdebele 9 incident. We are not aware which of the two was first, whether it was Piet Ntuli or KwaNdebele 9. We are not entirely clear about that ourselves, so I am just worried that he is going to give an answer and referring to the dates, it might be correct or incorrect.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I thought that the dates were common cause Mr Rossouw, that the Piet Ntuli matter happened before the KwaNdebele 9 matter?
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, unfortunately my clients had to rely on the evidence, we were not provided with the evidence of these two incidents, given by Brigadier Cronje and we were uncertain about that.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, but I think in order to safeguard your clients' interest, it will be probably in his interest not to respond then not to the comment from the Chair, if he is not clear on that aspect. I thought it was common cause that this incident occurred before the KwaNdebele 9?
May I just clear something whilst we are busy with Mr Oosthuizen. When did you become aware of Captain Hechter's intention to eliminate Mr Ntuli, are you in a position to give us an indication?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, my memory fails me in that regard, whether it was a day or two before the incident that he informed me that Mr Ntuli had been identified and that there was a plan to do something about him.
At that stage, whether it happened in KwaNdebele or in his office in the Northern Transvaal, in Pretoria, is uncertain to me. At that stage I did not know how he had planned it.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you are unable to tell us where you were informed of his intention to eliminate Mr Ntuli and when?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson, my memory fails me. There were too many things, I cannot recall it. But I was informed about it beforehand.
I received the order that I should offer assistance.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Why did you not discuss this particular instructions with Mr Van Wyk?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I accepted that the entire matter was to be kept secret.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Including from your own Brigadier who had seconded you to KwaNdebele?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson. It wasn't strange to me, because it was a high profile matter and it was conveyed to me confidentially as well as the issue or the order which was issued to me confidentially, it wasn't strange to me that I should keep this from my immediate Commander.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was any suggestion made by Captain Hechter that it had to be kept secret, even from your own Commander?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: It was definitely put to me that it was a secret. My memory fails me whether specific mention was made of Brigadier Van Wyk.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR POLSEN: Mr Chairperson, I've got three questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.
MR POLSEN: Mr Oosthuizen - let me rephrase my question.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you please move a little closer to the microphone, it is difficult to hear you.
MR POLSEN: When you and the other persons had a meeting, could you tell me once again who was involved in that meeting, a day or two before the incident?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: I cannot remember that Mr Chairman.
MR POLSEN: Was Mr Kendall present?
MR OOSTHUIZEN: That is unlikely.
MR POLSEN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR POLSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything to be cleared up under further re-examination?
MR ROSSOUW: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
