CHAIRPERSON: ... as far as I can recollect, yesterday we made it quite clear that these proceedings will commence at nine thirty. I therefore would appreciate an explanation from the legal representatives of the various applicants, who are in involved in the KwaNdebele incident, why they were not here when we came in as a Committee.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, Visser on record. Chairperson, by half past nine we didn't notice any of the Committee Members here, or just slightly before half past nine and we assumed, obviously incorrectly, that there may be a hitch with the starting time and we thought that we would go and grab a quick cup of coffee. Now this hasn't happened before, this is an exception Chairperson, and I will take the blame for that.
I don't appear for applicants in this matter, but we got to discuss certain interesting things and we just didn't watch the time go by. And certainly on behalf of all my colleagues and myself, we do apologise. But you know it doesn't happen, it hasn't happened before and certainly it won't happen again. Will you be lenient on us this time, Chairperson, and accept this apology?
CHAIRPERSON: I hear what you are saying, Mr Visser, but you are not involved in these applications, in respect of the KwaNdebele incident. I would like to hear the legal representatives involved in respect of the KwaNdebele incident.
MR MEINTJIES: Chairperson, appearing on behalf of Mr van Jaarsveld. I can only confirm what Mr Visser has submitted to you just now and tender my sincere apologies for what happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw?
MR ROSSOUW: Madam Chairman, I was also part of the discussion that was explain to you by Mr Visser.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MR ROSSOUW: ... my documents in order to proceed slightly before half past nine, and the Committee was not there. I also assume ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: No, the Committee was here at half past nine. We can't stand outside and wait for you until you come again.
MR ROSSOUW: Madam Chair, my sincere apologies. I confirm what was explained by Mr Visser.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Polsen?
MR POLSEN: Madam Chair, I was here very early this morning and I had my documents ready and I perhaps laboured under the misapprehension that there was some delay, and I confirm what was said by Mr Visser, I was part of the discussion. I'm sorry, I tender my apologies, it will not happen again.
CHAIRPERSON: I must on behalf of my Committee state that we take a very dim view on this kind of conduct. We expect counsel to conduct themselves with the necessary decorum. We hope this kind of a conduct will not be repeated again.
Since you were not here, I had initially started by saying that our Chair will not be here today, thus necessitating a change of guard. The Panel that will now sit to hear all outstanding applications set down on the roll comprises myself, Advocate de Jager and Mr Ilan Lax.
Ms Lockhat, are we in a position to commence with the KwaNdebele matter?
MS LOCKHAT: Indeed we are, Chairperson. We call on Mr A C Kendall.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, just before Mr Kendall commences, may we just place on record - Visser on record, Chairperson, that we are not involved in the KwaNdebele 9, nor are we involved in the next matter which I understand to be the Cele matter that we are aware of.
We would like to be excused, but obviously we would not like to cause an inconvenience should matters run quicker than we anticipated. We will be involved in the Motasi matter on behalf of General Stemmet, who is an implicated person. So we're peripherally involve there and we would like to attend that hearing.
What I would like to put to you Chairperson, is that perhaps if you would excuse us until this afternoon so that we can come around again this afternoon to establish how far matters have progressed and perhaps sit in this afternoon. We will certainly be back tomorrow morning at the latest, because we have no indication or idea as to how long these matters will last. Unless you have reason to believe that these matters will last an hour or so, well then we'll stay, because we certainly don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I have my own estimate on how long the KwaNdebele 9 is likely to run, but that's my personal view. I am really at the hands of the people who will be presenting evidence and putting questions after each applicant has presented his evidence-in-chief.
So in such circumstances one is unable to really say how long an application will last. We would like to appeal, whilst talking about this issue, to the legal representatives concerned to please place the evidence that is relevant and material to the issues on whether amnesty should be granted or not to an applicant concerned.
The way we have read the KwaNdebele 9, it is a matter that is capable of being concluded within a few hours time, but then that is not for us as a Committee to decide. We will be controlled by the evidence that will be placed before us. We don't want to be understood to be suggesting to counsel that they should conduct their client's applications in a manner that will ultimately result in them not doing justice to their clients' instructions.
However, an indication has been made by Ms Lockhat, our Evidence Leader, that it is very unlikely that the Thibedi matter will be capable of being proceeded with at all today. We had thought this would be a matter that would proceed today. We are told that Mr P J C Loots will not be available today, will only be available tomorrow. He also is involved in the incident regarding the killing of Richard and Irene Motasi, in which Mr Visser you have an interest as an implicated party.
We have also been advised in chambers, and I thought this would have been canvassed by Ms Lockhat with the necessary parties involved, that Mr du Plessis still has to give an indication on the availability of Mr Ras, who is an important applicant in the incident involving the killing of Richard and Irene Motasi.
MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, may I perhaps comment on these two incidents. I spoke to Ms Lockhat this morning about the situation. General Ras in the process of being examined and there is a good possibility that he will have to undergo a heart bypass operation tomorrow or Thursday. We will know during the course of today, and then I will be able to inform you.
I don't know if it would be prudent, well in my submission it won't be, but I'm in your hands pertaining to the Motasi matter, if one should go ahead with Colonel Loots' evidence without General Ras being present or if the application should be postponed. I will be able to give you an indication during the day.
And then I've had a discussion with Ms Lockhat and Mr Thibede this morning about the Thibede application. Colonel Loots lives in the Klein Karoo and we had to give him notice to come up when matters would be finalised. I indicated to Ms Lockhat that he will be here during the course of tomorrow, but I'm not 100% sure if he is going to be available at 10 o'clock. I asked her if it would be possible to deal with the Thibedi matter on Thursday, when I know Colonel Loots will be available. And it was discussed with Mr Thibedi and he gave an indication that he would be able to attend the hearing on Thursday, as I understood him, Thursday morning.
I don't want to do Ms Lockhat's work, but I suggested to her that the best possibility in my view would be to hold the Motasi matter over and I will let you know during the day what the position is, and that one then proceeds with the Kruschev matter after the KwaNdebele 9 matter. The Thibede matter in my estimate would not take longer than, I think a half an hour.
CHAIRPERSON: I think then to come back to your pertinent problem, Mr Visser, we would not be in a position to indicate to you when the Motasi matter will be commencing, until we have heard from Mr du Plessis during the course of the day.
I would suggest that you make contact with Ms Lockhat after lunch. Will that be the right time, Mr du Plessis?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I think so. I have sent Mr Britz's clerk to phone again now to try and determine if we have new information today. This morning 7 o'clock I spoke to Mr Britz and he couldn't give me an indication if there was a final decision on General Ras, but after lunch time that would be fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Visser, would you then get in touch with Ms Lockhat, who will be a position to give an indication of whether the matter will be proceeding or not?
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. My attorney and I have already told each other that we'll come here at 2 o'clock in any event, to find out what the situation is. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused.
MR VISSER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to commence with the KwaNdebele 9 incident? Mr Polsen, I believe your client will be the one to commence giving evidence?
MR POLSEN: Yes, that's correct, Madam Chair. My position however is that now that we have a new Member of the Committee, I'm faced with the question as to whether I should lead the evidence with I led in the Ntuli matter once again, for the benefit of the new Member of the Committee. Otherwise I had thought that I could merely refer to that evidence, ask that it be incorporated also in this application with regard to this particular incident. Perhaps this is the correct time then to give you the background once again on the situation in KwaNdebele. If you would give me some guidance on that, otherwise I can make the application a lot shorter.
CHAIRPERSON: May I just confer with the Members of my Committee. Mr Polsen, we would prefer that you do not refer to the evidence that you've already given when your client was giving evidence in the Ntuli matter. In any event, one of the Members of my Committee who was not here when we sat to hear the Ntuli matter, will definitely not be prejudiced because that information is contained in the application of Mr Kendall, the same information is contained in this. So he has read and he understands issues of background. You don't need to go through that.
MR POLSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, may I ask that Mr Kendall be sworn in please?
ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL KENDALL: (sworn states)
ADV DE JAGER: Will you please give us your full names.
MR KENDALL: Abraham Christoffel Kendall.
MR POLSEN: May I proceed, Madam Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Polsen.
MR POLSEN: The application is found in bundle 5, Madam Chair, and the first three - the application as we now know was filed on the 12th of December 1996. It was supplemented in terms of an agreement by the Attorney-General with the Committee and once again there was a further supplementary application. So the first three items consist of the entire application. The particular incident which we are dealing with is found on page 7. It is a hand-written 7 and says
"Murder 9 youths, Vlaklaagte, KwaNdebele - June 1986"
I will commence leading that evidence, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR POLSEN: I will also at this stage get confirmation.
Colonel, you have read the evidence and you have also partially heard the evidence of General van der Merwe.
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR POLSEN: Would you like for that evidence to be incorporated into this application of yours?
MR KENDALL: Yes, that's correct.
MR POLSEN: Can we return to the issue of the KwaNdebele 9. Your position was that you were the manager of the Security Branch, or the Head of the Security Branch, stationed at Bronkhorstspruit during June 1986?
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR POLSEN: Now during June 1986, with regard to the KwaNdebele matter, do you have it in mind, do you know what it is about?
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR POLSEN: On that day you received a telephone call, is that correct?
MR KENDALL: Yes, that's correct.
MR POLSEN: From whom was this telephone call?
MR KENDALL: From Brigadier Jack Cronje.
MR POLSEN: What was the order which you received?
MR KENDALL: I was informed that I was to attempt to determine whether or not there were any black youths in the area of the Bundu Inn Hotel in KwaNdebele.
MR POLSEN: The Bundu Inn is a hotel which belonged to the Shabangu’s, is that correct?
MR KENDALL: Yes, that's correct.
MR POLSEN: And it was situation on the way to Marble Hall from Bronkhorstspruit.
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR POLSEN: How far is that?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, it was in the Nitsi area, but it was transferred to the KwaNdebele area, the land there.
MR POLSEN: Approximately how far from Bronkhorstspruit?
MR KENDALL: Approximately 80 kilometres.
MR POLSEN: Very well. What did you do after you received the order from Brigadier Cronje?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, by means of a contact at the hotel a black woman, Happy Shabangu, I determined that there were a number of black youths that had been noticed it the area of the hotel. I can no longer recall whether she mentioned that they were on the premises or outside the premises.
MR POLSEN: And this discussion that you had with Brigadier Cronje, what was the purpose of the order which was given?
MR KENDALL: If I still recall correctly, Brigadier Cronje told me that these were persons who were under way abroad for military training.
MR POLSEN: And you had to determine whether or not they were in the area?
MR KENDALL: Yes, that's correct.
MR POLSEN: And did you make any telephone calls or did you go there to carry out your order?
MR KENDALL: I personally spoke to Happy Shabangu regarding the matter or the persons who may have possibly been there.
MR POLSEN: And what was the information that you received back?
MR KENDALL: She did confirm that there were some strange black youths in the area.
MR POLSEN: What did you do after that?
MR KENDALL: I conveyed this information to Brigadier Cronje. I can't recall whether this took place personally or telephonically. Brigadier Cronje then informed me that he would send a black member, Joe Mamasela, to the Bundu Inn so that I could introduce him to the people at the hotel.
MR POLSEN: Did you at that stage already know Mamasela, had you already met him?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR POLSEN: Where did you meet him?
MR KENDALL: I knew about Joe. I'd often seen him in the Compol building, in the branch of Northern Transvaal, so I knew who he was, but I never had any personal contact with him, nor did I work with him.
MR POLSEN: Who was Joe Mamasela?
MR KENDALL: As far as I knew Joe Mamasela was an Askari who had been transferred from Vlakplaas to Division Northern Transvaal.
MR POLSEN: And then I assume that you carried out your order to introduce Joe Mamasela, or at least to take him to the Bundu Inn?
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR POLSEN: And when did this take place?
MR KENDALL: I can't recall whether I myself took Mamasela to the Bundu Inn or whether I met him there at the hotel. I can recall that I sat with him in Happy Shabangu’s office, but how he arrived there, whether or not I took him or whether he personally arrived there, I can't recall, but I did introduce him to Happy Shabangu.
MR POLSEN: And after you introduced him to her, what did you discuss in Mrs Shabangu’s office?
MR KENDALL: I can't recall what was discussed. If I had to think back I would have made the introductions and I believe that I departed after that. I had nothing further to do with the matter because Mamasela, or in terms of what Mamasela's purpose was at the hotel.
MR POLSEN: Did you know what his purpose there was?
MR KENDALL: I knew that he was there to collect information regarding the 9 black youths who had been noticed in the area.
MR POLSEN: Did you have any knowledge about what his orders were with regard to the 9 black youths?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR POLSEN: Did you discuss it with him?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR POLSEN: After you had introduced him at the Bundu Inn to Mrs Shabangu, what did you do?
MR KENDALL: I must have departed, but with regard to any further connections between me and Mamasela and Shabangu, I can't place anything there.
MR POLSEN: Did you go back to Bronkhorstspruit?
MR KENDALL: I assume that I went back either to Bronkhorstspruit or to Siyabuswa, the capital of KwaNdebele.
MR POLSEN: What was the next matter that you knew about?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, I can recall that it wasn't very long after that that - the morgue was very close to my office in Bronkhorstspruit, and the district physician came to tell me one morning that there was a horrible bunch of corpses from KwaNdebele and that I was to come and look while he was conducting the autopsies. I can only remember that van Niekerk also had clinics in KwaNdebele and that he was informed about the political situation in KwaNdebele. And if one considers the time period in which these things took place, I would believe that van Niekerk believed that the Mbogoto and the Security Police were co-operating because I can remember him telling me as we were going to the morgue, don't you think that your Mbogoto has gone just a little too far?
MR POLSEN: Very well, that is what he thought, but you arrived there and what did you find there?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, I can recall that he opened two drawers for me and I saw two of the bodies and at that stage I also thought that these were corpses that had come in as a result of the unrest in KwaNdebele.
MR POLSEN: Did you recognise any of the bodies?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR POLSEN: Did you then, with regard to the information which you received at the morgue, ever visit the scene or make an attempt to determine from where these bodies had come?
MR KENDALL: I did not visit the scene. As has already emanated from the evidence here there were Special Investigative Units and I was not any further involved in the investigations.
MR POLSEN: So you were not involved with the rest of the matter at all?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR POLSEN: May I just place this matter into a time context, was this before the Ntuli matter took place?
MR KENDALL: I'm not certain, but I would assume that this was before the Ntuli incident, because I see in the evidence you state that it was in June, and if my memory does not fail me the Ntuli matter took place on the 29th of July 1986.
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, then it must have taken place before the Ntuli incident.
MR POLSEN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR POLSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kendall, in your application you've also indicated in paragraph 9, that the incident happened on the 15th of July 1986. What worries me is that you did not approximate, you seem to have indicated the date if we check 1.7.
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, I'm not quite certain from where you have obtained the date of the 15th of July.
CHAIRPERSON: Your application, 1.7, paragraph 9.A.2. 9.A.I read with 9.A.II and also page 1.2, again with regard to a response under paragraph 9.A.I and II.
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, initially I made this affidavit with the Special Investigative Unit of the Attorney-General. This application which I have before me is a supplementary application which I made to Mr Polsen. I did not consult this application again, and if the date of 15th July 1986 is given as the date upon which these events took place, I would believe that that is the date upon which the incident took place, the day upon which these 9 persons were murdered. However, I have not looked at this initial application of mine for quite some time. I don't think that I even have it in my possession still.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think it's important for us to ascertain the date, for obvious reasons. Can you give an indication of how soon after you had been telephoned by Brigadier Cronje did this incident happen?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, it took place quite some time ago and this is the first time that I was confronted by the investigative unit for my involvement in the matter and I can't remember the time period that elapsed between these events.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you not even able to give us an estimate whether it was immediately, after a few hours that you had been telephoned by Brigadier Cronje, that you were able to lay the information, you informed by Happy Shabangu about the presence of these suspicious looking people and that on the same day Mamasela was then brought to you to be introduced to Happy Shabangu? These are matters of detail that would assist this Committee particularly in regard to the evidence that we already have that has been tendered by Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter.
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, I assume that I would immediately have attended to the matter, however with regard to the time periods I immediately attended to this matter in order to determine, and after I had determined that there were black youths from Happy Shabangu, I would immediately have conveyed this to Brigadier Cronje. I believe that the incidents followed very closely upon one another. If it had been two or three days, then I believe that that would have been a long time.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, I think that will assist us and I'm sure Mr du Plessis will be greatly interested in that aspect of your evidence. Does that conclude your evidence-in-chief, Mr Polsen.
MR POLSEN: Yes, that does.
MR DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, may I proceed first?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would appear that you are the only one who is sitting on that side of the table, so we will allow you to proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you.
Mr Kendall, you did not know who these youths were, you didn't see them or know exactly who they were?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR DU PLESSIS: You also did not know how many there were?
MR KENDALL: No, I didn't know.
MR DU PLESSIS: All that you knew is that these youths were on their way, are you sure that they were on their way or did they want to go for military training, or were they already under way to military training?
MR KENDALL: If I can recall correctly, Brigadier Cronje's words to me were that they were on their way abroad for military training.
MR DU PLESSIS: Who was Happy Shabangu?
MR KENDALL: Happy Shabangu was at that stage the manageress of the Bundu Inn Hotel in KwaNdebele. Her father was the owner of the hotel.
MR DU PLESSIS: Did she know that you were a member of the Security Police?
MR KENDALL: Yes.
MR DU PLESSIS: Was she one of the informers or not?
MR KENDALL: I wouldn't say that she was an informer, but she was a contact for the Security Police because I think her father - and I can't confirm this, but her father was also involved with the KwaNdebele Cabinet. I wouldn't say that he was friends with them, but he knew about the Mbogoto and because of that they were favourably inclined towards the Security Police.
MR DU PLESSIS: Would it be correct if I put the following to you, and that is that you do not know whether or not the youth that you are speaking of here today were the ultimate nine who were killed in the shooting incident?
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR DU PLESSIS: Very well. Would you agree with me that it's possible that the instruction which Brigadier Cronje gave to you, according to your evidence, may have had to do with a completely different group of youths than those who ultimately died?
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
MR DU PLESSIS: And the reason why I'm putting this to you is that neither Brigadier Cronje nor Captain Hechter gave evidence that you were involved in the identification of these specific nine. In fact their evidence was that Joe Mamasela had come to Brigadier Cronje with information that there were youths who wanted to go for military training and that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, are you putting the correct facts to Mr Kendall?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: If so, those facts appear on which page of Brigadier Cronje's evidence?
MR DU PLESSIS: May I refer you to page 764 of bundle 2(f).
CHAIRPERSON: Bundle 2(f)?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, without entering into a debate, is that not the evidence of Captain Hechter?
MR DU PLESSIS: I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying, Judge Khampepe.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that not the evidence of Captain Hechter that you are referring to?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Because if I recall, Brigadier Cronje disclaimed any knowledge about this incident. In fact the thrust of the evidence is that he was not around the office during the occurrence of this incident.
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are not putting the correct facts to Mr Kendall.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Madam Chair, you ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Would you please withdraw your question.
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I will. Thank you, Madam Chair, I am indebted to you.
Mr Kendall, let me put it to you like this. The Chairperson is entirely correct, Brigadier Cronje did not have any knowledge about the incident, I should have referred to Captain Hechter's evidence. And Captain Hechter's evidence, on page 764 states:
"This incident took place in 1986. I cannot remember the exact date and as far as my knowledge goes, Brigadier Cronje was not at the office at that stage for some reason or another.
Mamasela at that stage operated under the MK acronym. He was known as Mike and he moved around Mamelodi known as Mike. And on a particular day he came to me and said that some of the more militant youth had approached him and questioned him and asked him whether he could arrange for them to leave the country for training. I instructed him to proceed and to see if he could get together some of these people."
You do not dispute that evidence?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR DU PLESSIS: And should it appear from the evidence, and this would be the evidence of Captain Hechter, that Cronje was not in his office at the time that these events took place, I would like to put it to you that it appears that the youths who are being discussed here are probably not the youths who died in KwaNdebele.
MR KENDALL: That is possible.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg? Mr Rossouw, you are involved in this matter.
MR ROSSOUW: I'm sorry, I think I have to come to you before getting to the objectors' legal representatives.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no questions for this witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Then your turn, Mr van den Berg.
MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm not sure whether Mr Meintjies has any questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Mr Meintjies is involved in this incident. I'm sorry, Mr Meintjies.
MR MEINTJIES: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no questions for this witness.
CHAIRPERSON: I seem to have actually skipped you as if I knew you had no questions, both of you and Mr Rossouw. Mr van den Berg?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Chairperson.
The information which - did you receive any information from Shabangu regarding who these youths were and what they were doing in KwaNdebele?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson no, she simply confirmed that there were indeed persons or youths who were unknown to her, who had been noticed in the area surrounding the hotel.
MR VAN DEN BERG: So you did not receive any information from her that they were activists or that they had gone for military training or anything like that?
MR KENDALL: No.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kendall, I think the problem that seems to be apparent to me, is that either we are dealing with a different incident altogether or there is a serious discrepancy somewhere, because Mr du Plessis has already put to you the evidence that is before this Committee, which was tendered viva voce by Captain Hechter, Brigadier Cronje was not involved in this incident, he did not know anything at all about this incident. It therefore would be inconceivable for him to have telephoned you to request you to establish the whereabouts of these youths, because according to the evidence tendered by Captain Hechter, there was no need to make any such finds because Mr Mamasela came with the information of what the activities of the youths were, what they intended to do, that they intended to undergo military training outside the country. Mr Mamasela when he approached Captain Hechter, already knew the whereabouts of the youngsters who were involved in this incident. Do you see where our difficulty is with regard to your application in relation to the KwaNdebele 9?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, yes I will concede that it could have been completely different youths who were murdered to this group that has been mentioned here. However, that I did receive an order and that I did take Mamasela, or introduce him to Happy Shabangu is so. However, the youths who were murdered at Vlaklaagte and the youths who were noticed at the Bundu Inn may have been two completely groups.
CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, do you know where the youths that you were advised of by Mr van Niekerk were, were you able to establish the house of where this incident happened?
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, this was a long time ago. I can simply recall that he told me that these were youths who had been brought from KwaNdebele to the morgue, but I can't remember whether he told me exactly where the incident had taken place.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr de Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Kendall?
ADV DE JAGER: The place Tweefontein, do you know where that is situated?
MR KENDALL: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: Is it close to the Bundu Inn?
MR KENDALL: No.
ADV DE JAGER: Vlaklaagte is also mentioned, is that close to the Bundu Inn?
MR KENDALL: No, Tweefontein and Vlaklaagte are two adjacent areas and they are approximately 30 kilometres away from the Bundu Inn.
ADV DE JAGER: Closer to Pretoria, so to speak?
MR KENDALL: Yes, close to Pretoria.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Kendall?
MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson.
Mr Kendall, I'm a little puzzled in the light of all the evidence, as to why you've actually applied for amnesty at all for this matter.
MR KENDALL: Chairperson, if I might put it like this. I was confronted by the Special Investigative Unit of the Attorney-General regarding this matter and I believe that because the name Happy Shabangu was mentioned to me, that they had information about me or that they had some form of a statement in this regard. That was the primary motivation for my application.
MR LAX: But you in your mind, would I be correct in saying there is nothing that you have done that constitutes an offence or a delict or an omission in relation to the deaths of these nine people, for which amnesty might be granted?
MR KENDALL: That is my sentiment.
CHAIRPERSON: And that would be so in respect of the incident, not necessarily the KwaNdebele 9 incident. Even if you are applying for the incident of the murder in which you were instructed by Brigadier Cronje to collect information about the whereabouts of the youths, you wouldn't have constituted any offence or a delict because all that you were required to do was to collect information, which information you did not know whether it would be used for a commission of any offence or delict.
MR KENDALL: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Polsen, for which offence or delict have you applied?
MR POLSEN: Chairperson, the idea was that there would not be any doubt, and that is how I understood it. That is why the application was originally served by means of the Attorney-General, that there would be a connection between the death of the nine in the morgue and Vlaklaagte, but it appears to be clear that this is not the case and that it could have been somebody else. And it would be that this application has been made due to over-cautiousness because there was some unclarity regarding the introduction to Shabangu, which would indicate that there may have been some idea that the persons in the morgue would be persons that had been killed by Mamasela, or rather as a result of that action ended up in the morgue.
And this would appear to be an application that was lodged through over-caution. It would not appear that any crime was committed before the actual offence and that any contribution was made by the applicant and he would not be able to state who the nine were if he does not know what the offence was that ultimately killed these nine. It would appear that this application loses its stratum.
CHAIRPERSON: Obviously when we come to argument you probably will not persist with your application.
MR POLSEN: It is likely. I would like to take instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR POLSEN: I wasn't here at the time when Brigadier Cronje and Hechter gave their evidence and I wasn't aware of whether there'd been a connection between this particular incident and the activities of my client.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely. And you have now just been presented with all these many bundles which is the evidence which was tendered at a previous hearing of Mr Hechter and Brigadier Cronje.
MR POLSEN: That is correct, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: And obviously you will now be able to take instructions and when it comes to argument you will be in a position to indicate to this Committee whether you still want to persist with your client's application.
MR POLSEN: I certainly will, thank you, Madam Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED
