CHRISTOFFEL JOHANNES DU PREEZ SMIT: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Smit, your application appears on page 26 to 31 of bundle 11 and you apply for amnesty for your involvement in the Silent Valley incident. Chairperson, you might find in your Exhibit I that there are two first pages. The reason for that is for some reason the computer refused to print on the first one and we didn't pick it up until after the papers were reproduced and it simply refers to the numbering of the paragraphs.
Mr Smit in your affidavit, Exhibit I you've requested the Committee to consider various submissions and evidence which has been made in the past with regard to your application?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You have also given your personal background and particulars with regard to your career and so forth until page 5, is that correct?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: I would just like to pause with you, at the time of the incident in 1983 you were a Lieutenant?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: And later you were promoted to branch commander of Zeerust?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes.
MR VISSER: And later you were promoted again?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: Could you tell the Committee to what?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I was the provincial commander of internal security with the former security branch.
MR VISSER: As with the other witnesses who have given evidence here and I assume that you were present when Mr Crause gave evidence this morning?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: With regard to the rest of your affidavit up until page 21 your evidence is in essence the same as what he said and the same as what appears in his affidavit and you reconcile yourself with that?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you also confirm what appears in your affidavit in this regard?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: You also apologise for your weak recollection in paragraph 66 and so forth on page 22 and then we come to the Silent Valley incident on page 23. From paragraph 70 onwards could you inform us regarding what you remember about this incident as well as your share in this incident?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: On 4th May 1983 I was still a lieutenant, I went with the then Captain Crause to Derdepoort in an official vehicle, we had information that certain PAC operatives wanted to infiltrate. On the way there Colonel Crause heard a message over the radio that there was a person at Derdepoort border post who wanted to see him. We went to the border post and Crause and Venter spoke to the man, I was not present during the discussion. After the discussion, Colonel Crause told me that the man had told him that two trained MK members were on the other side of the border and that they were going to infiltrate the R.S.A. that night. Colonel Crause then contacted the regional headquarters with regard to the matter.
MR VISSER: Is that Colonel Steyn?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes, he was the commander at that stage.
I moved around on the roads in the vicinity with the idea of establishing the infiltration route of the PAC's then contacted Brigadier Loots and he gave me an order to look for a suitable place for a roadblock.
MR VISSER: Not for an ambush?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No, for a roadblock. I then identified a place which was the road coming from Derdepoort which had a T-junction where it joined another road, very close to the T-junction there was a gate about which there has been evidence?
MR VISSER: Yes and this gate was just after a bend in the road?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That's correct. I informed Brigadier Loots about this and that evening we gathered at that place. General Steyn gave the instruction that the men would be arrested and in co-operation with him we established a plan as to how the arrest would take place. He and Commissioner Truter then left thereafter.
MR VISSER: The members who were present you have listed in paragraph 78 and if you refer to all the members it was Steyn, Loots, Crause, Venter, Van Zyl, Marais, Jan Truter and W C Smith as well as yourself?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes, there may have been other people there who I cannot recall.
MR VISSER: Well one of the persons was Captain Wehrmann.
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And Wehrmann has passed away?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Continue with 79?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: After General Steyn had departed we did a practice run as has been testified to earlier. It was obvious that people would be injured especially if hand grenades were to be used to assault us. After a discussion among the officers who were present on the scene along with Brigadier Loots who was then in command it was decided that we would eliminate the people, we would shoot them dead when they stopped at the roadblock. All the persons who were on the eastern side of the road moved over to the western side of the road. The only shelter which was available at that stage for them and this was a gravel road and as the road was formed there was a small embankment and that was the only shelter which people could take and they lay on or behind that embankment.
MR VISSER: In other words you would agree with the set up which Brigadier Loots gave this morning as to why he decided to change the plan and disobey the order to arrest?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct. As the vehicle approached us we became aware thereof and the vehicle slowed down at the T-junction, went round the bend and stopped at the gate. We immediately opened fire on the vehicle, I fired shots myself, I cannot say how many shots were fired. This lasted for a few seconds after which the gunshots ended. We were approximately two metres away from the vehicle and if a hand grenade had been thrown out it would definitely have either killed or injured us.
After the fire had ceased we went to inspect the vehicle and I saw the hand grenade on the lap of the left passenger. After that we left the vehicle so that it could be cleared by demolitions experts.
MR VISSER: You spoke of hand grenades, could you please refer to paragraph 88. Where were these hand grenades?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: The hand grenade which I saw was on the passenger, on the left hand side of the bakkie. After the bodies had been removed I also saw pistols on the persons who had been seated in the middle and on the left. There were no weapons to be found on the driver of the bakkie.
After the scene had been cleared and by that we mean that bodies had been removed from the vehicle and that the vehicle had been made safe by the experts. The bodies were taken to the mortuary.
MR VISSER: Can you tell us something about the removal of the bodies, with which vehicles were they transported, can you remember?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No, I can't recall.
MR VISSER: So if there is evidence later to the effect that the bodies were loaded onto a bakkie and were removed as such from the scene you would accept this as the correct evidence?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: And you also referred to a Sitchaba publication which we knew was a publication of Dawn and this is attached to Brigadier Loots' affidavit?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: And you also became aware of that after the time?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you investigate the weapons which were found on the bodies?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No.
MR VISSER: Did you give any orders or did you receive any orders to take weapons to the scene to plant on these persons?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No.
MR VISSER: Did you yourself plant a weapon on anyone of these persons?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No.
MR VISSER: You informed me about an incident regarding a telephone call with regard to Russian firearms which you received later when you were the divisional commander?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct, that was at Potchefstroom.
MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee who the person was who contacted you and what the content of that discussion was?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I was transferred from Zeerust to Potchefstroom and Hans Wehrmann was appointed of the commander of the security branch at Zeerust.
MR VISSER: Please go a little bit slower?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I beg your pardon.
MR LAX: Please repeat the person who became your successor?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Captain Hans Wehrmann, the deceased Hans Wehrmann.
MR VISSER: If I'm not mistaken W-e-h-r-m-a-n-n.
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: While I was in Potchefstroom I received a telephone call from him and he informed me that there were three AKs in a safe in the security branch in Zeerust. I contacted the particular division at head office and they sent somebody to retrieve the weapons from there.
MR VISSER: Why do you refer us to those three AKs?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Because AKs have been mentioned in previous evidence which has been delivered here and also because the name of the deceased, Hans Wehrmann has emerged.
MR VISSER: And you are simply stating that there may be a connection?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes.
MR VISSER: You say in paragraph 91 that the bodies were later identified, those are the bodies of the two passengers, by means of fingerprints?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Yes that is correct.
MR VISSER: Were you aware that Moatshe had been an informer in the Western Transvaal?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you do so, you made reference to a telephone call having been received from Mr Wehrmann about the AK47.
MR VISSER: About 3 AK47s?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, about 3 AK47s. Then you left the matter there so we are still in the dark as to in what context this is being referred to, whether Mr Smit is saying you went to Potchefstroom, collected the 3 AK47s, that the 3 AK47s at all material times under his care whilst he was ...[intervention]
MR VISSER: No, no, Madame Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR VISSER: In the interest of full disclosure what Du Preez Smit is saying is that as far as AKs in the Western Transvaal are concerned, what he can offer as evidence is that he received a telephone call from Wehrmann, that's his evidence, who asked him "what do we do with the 3 AK47s here in the gun room at Zeerust?" Smit then arranged with the quartermaster I think it was in Pretoria for those AKs to be transported to Pretoria to be destroyed. Now he is not taking it any further than that, he can't put it as high as saying that Wehrmann knew anything about the AKs at the Silent Valley incident, he doesn't put it that high, all that he says is that there might be a connection. Wehrmann was there and there was mention of AK47s. We can't take it any further but we thought that in the interest of full disclosure we'll tell you about it.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think how it assists us?
MR VISSER: Well, it may not, but still it's something he told me and I thought I should convey it to you.
MR LAX: May I just interpose for one second? You're telling us about this phone call. What did Wehrmann say to you when he phoned you? Did he say this was presumably now that he'd become commander of the unit in your place once you'd been moved to Potch? What did he say, did he say - well just tell us?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I can't remember his precise words, it could have been that he had an inspection but he saw the weapons there, he said that he had the AKs there and wanted to know what to do with it. I told him to leave it in my hands and that I would arrange for these weapons to be retrieved.
MR LAX: It seems to me from the way you've testified that he discovered these AK47s and he wanted to know what to do with them while having an inspection? It seems not an unfair assumption that he probably didn't know about the existence before because if he didn't he wouldn't have bothered to phone you?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I can't respond to that but I must mention that we did have AKs and that we did undertake shooting exercises with these weapons, we were trained in the use of AKs so if this was the first time that he discovered the AKs there it's impossible for me to answer.
ADV DE JAGER: But when you were at Zeerust the AKs were there?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Weren't there AK47s everywhere and the police were using them in order to make some of the operations look like they were operations of the ANC? Isn't that common cause Mr Visser, that's the evidence that we have heard throughout our hearings ever since I've been here that's the evidence that one can now accept without having to introduce this but you are conducting the matter, we don't want to interfere. That concludes your evidence in chief is it not?
MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much Mr Visser.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions to put to Mr Smit?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, just one or two.
Mr Smit you've heard that Colonel Venter gave evidence that Moatshe had been an informer. Is it possible that Colonel Venter at that stage could have been under the impression that Moatshe was an informer?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: He may have been under that impression.
MR DU PLESSIS: Very well and then I'd like to ask you there has been evidence regarding the one AK47 that was found with one of the passengers of the vehicle. As I understand your evidence you were not aware thereof?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No, I was not aware of it.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Just a few questions Chairperson.
Is it correct that you went with Mr Crause, you were in the car when you received the radio transmission that there was someone at the border to meet with Crause. Did Crause inform you what that conversation entailed?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I only heard over the radio that someone said that there was a person at the border post who wanted to speak to him. I was not present with their meeting. Afterwards Captain Crause told me that this person had informed them that there were two trained MK members who were going to infiltrate the R.S.A.
MS LOCKAT: Just your impression, I forgot that the radio was - that you could actually hear it. Did you form an impression that maybe this Moatshe was an informer of Crause's?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I couldn't draw that inference, Chairperson.
MS LOCKAT: So was the conversation very brief or long did they basically speak for?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: The radio report was simply that there was a man at the border post who wished to speak to him and that was all.
MS LOCKAT: And when you got to the border post you were not in the same vicinity as them, where were you at the time?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I was not present during the discussion.
MS LOCKAT: So where were you at the time?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I departed as I've already testified and continued with my other duties.
MS LOCKAT: You were under the impression that these operatives were basically going to be arrested, is that correct?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MS LOCKAT: Is it normal procedure for persons to arm themselves with extra weapons to plant this on people that were going to be arrested?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Not as far as I am aware but it may have been so.
MS LOCKAT: Tell me when Loots informed you that the operation - were you part of the discussion as to the elimination of the operatives?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MS LOCKAT: What was your opinion, did you think it was a good idea?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MS LOCKAT: Why did you think so?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Because the vicinity did not lend itself to an arrest. As I have explained the section that was available to us was minimal.
CHAIRPERSON: But on that point you chose the spot?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Chairperson, yes that's correct, it was the best place that I could find given the circumstances and the time at my disposal.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you chose that spot did you know where the time of choosing that spot that it would present difficulties?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Not for the arrest Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You only realised that it would or not for the arrest you said?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So if you had effected an arrest the spot would have been appropriate, is that what you're saying?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: At that stage I thought that it would be appropriate.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it normal practice for your unit to have a practice run when you were to effect an arrest on insurgents?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Chairperson there were inexperienced persons and I think that the purpose was to prepare them for such a situation if they had not yet encountered such a situation previously.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes so it wasn't normal practice?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKAT: You were aware that General Steyn was in charge of this operation?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not so, which operation are you referring to?
MS LOCKAT: To the arrest, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MS LOCKAT: Is that correct?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is so.
MS LOCKAT: At the stage it was planned to eliminate these people. Did it occur to you to inform General Steyn?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Chairperson, Brigadier Loots was for all practical purposes in command there and we would only have followed his instructions and executed whichever orders he gave.
MS LOCKAT: Was it only according to your knowledge the one AK that was found at the scene of the incident?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: I have no knowledge of the AK which was found on the scene.
MS LOCKAT: And Mr Wehrmann, is that correct, that's his name?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Wehrmann.
MS LOCKAT: When he informed you about these three additional weapons that were found did he tell you which incident, what did he tell you?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: He simply informed me that there was three AKs in the safe and we then arranged or I arranged for these AKs to be removed.
MS LOCKAT: Did you think that these AKs were found at the scene of the incident there?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When were you informed by Mr Wehrmann?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: It would have been approximately during the early 90's, perhaps '92, '93.
ADV DE JAGER: It almost seven to ten years after the incident?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MS LOCKAT: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, procedurally I should allow you to re-examine but maybe it's better to do so if after the members of my Committee have been accorded an opportunity to put questions to Mr Smit?
MR VISSER: Yes absolutely Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Lax?
MR LAX: Just one issue Chairperson. Senior Superintendent, you said something about AK47s being used for practice or for you to be in a position to know how to handle them. Those would have been properly issued AK47s I would imagine, would that be correct?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Chairperson yes, it was supposed to be that way but there could have been cases where there were AKs present which had not been formerly or officially issued.
MR LAX: You see we've heard evidence in many many hearings during the course of the whole Commission's existence of numerous members of the police who - and other instances - who kept their own firearms of Soviet origin for a whole range of purposes. They even kept home-made firearms, sometimes they'd want to plant them on people, sometimes they'd want to use them to make an incident look like it was carried out in a counter-intelligence sort of way, in other words to provide a false flag operation, if we could put it in that sense and so what I'm asking you in a sense is, is the distinction between bona fide training with such weapons which you would have borne knowledge of such weapons, and the different kind of use of such weapons where people using them for what may have been an unofficially sanctioned purposes but which were tolerated in a sense, do you bear any knowledge of that?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct.
MR LAX: And you've already testified that to the best of your knowledge there was no such practice on that day of this incident?
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax. Mr De Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Smit?
ADV DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser do you have any re-examination?
MR VISSER: None thank you Chairperson, except that I again neglected to refer you to the fact that also this witness made an affidavit, bundle 2I, page 133. It doesn't say much but I should have drawn your attention. Thank you Chairperson, may the witness be excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Smit you are excused.
MR DU PREEZ SMIT: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
