MR CORNELIUS: I see we've got 25 minutes, I wish to call NJ Vermeulen, Mr Chair, thank you.
N J VERMEULEN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Vermeulen, you have prepared an application that you have handed up for amnesty for the murder of Johannes Mabotha at Penge Mine, and any other offences which might emanate from this.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: When these events took place you were a Warrant Officer in the South African Police Service and you were stationed at the Vlakplaas unit under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: At this time you received an instruction from Colonel de Kock to make certain preparations for Penge Mine, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you please just briefly tell the Committee what was the discussion with regard to the possible death and burial of Johannes Mabotha?
MR VERMEULEN: The instruction was that we had to move to Penge Mine and the training premises had to be arranged, that some of the person of C Section would move to the mine. We took some weapons along with us, machine-guns and extra explosives which would be used there, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: There was some discussion between yourself and Mr de Kock, with the possible burial of a person or the blowing up of a person?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson. Mr de Kock came there and asked if there was a place where a person could be buried and then I told him that Penge premises was not suitable for burying a person and I proposed to him that explosives be used to get rid of the body.
MR CORNELIUS: Are you a trained explosives expert?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: How did you determine the charge?
MR VERMEULEN: 25 kilograms high explosives would have the necessary result that we expected, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: So this would have destroyed any evidence, specifically the body?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: So you knew before you left Vlakplaas that your purpose was to destroy a body?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: At that stage did you know the identity of the person?
MR VERMEULEN: Not that I can recall, Chairperson. According to my recollection I did not know who the person would be until we arrived at the mine.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you know it was an Askari?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you know it was a person who had turned and had turned to his previous military comrades? - to put it like that.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Returned to his previous political organisation who were in a struggle against the then State?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Then you travelled to Penge Mine, who accompanied you?
MR VERMEULEN: Lionel Snyman accompanied me there, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And what preparations did you make at Penge Mine?
MR VERMEULEN: We passed security, we went to security and arranged that the vehicle that still had to come would be let through and we received permission to use the training premises, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: So you don't go through a security point, you just got permission?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And at the scene, what did you prepare there?
MR VERMEULEN: At the scene itself we set up the scene so that it would seem like we were busy with exercises at night.
MR CORNELIUS: ...(no audible question)
MR VERMEULEN: 2 LMG light machine-guns were placed in place and the explosives were placed in the vicinity for so long, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: It was mentioned in other applications where persons had received amnesty, that a chair was placed there.
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, there was no chair in that explosion, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: It's difficult to take a chair with you there, Chairperson.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And no hole was dug where the person was put in?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You prepared the scene and the other persons arrived there later.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: The order of the events that took place there I cannot specifically recall, I cannot place myself there because I think most of the time we were already at the hole when the others arrived there.
MR CORNELIUS: And Mabotha was not tortured or assaulted in your presence or cuffed to a pole?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you or any of the other members consume liquor before the operation was launched?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened if you did consume liquor? Was it allowed?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, it was not allowed to use any alcohol before such an operation.
MR CORNELIUS: Are you telling the Committee that an Askari who turns and goes back to his previous organisation is a danger for the Security Police during those times?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Would you have regarded him as an enemy of the then political dispensation?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And within your heart did you believe bona fide that Johannes Mabotha could be regarded as an enemy at that stage?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that if he was to be destroyed, that this would serve a purpose for the previous government?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: This was your subjective conviction?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. After you two moved down there it's common cause that the two of you climbed into a vehicle to the side of the hole and then you climbed down into the quarry.
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, I believe that we drove with our own vehicle ...(intervention)
MR CORNELIUS: Excuse me, he said that you and Lionel Snyman had already left from there. You moved to the quarry, you were in the quarry, and what happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: I'm not following you, Sir.
MR CORNELIUS: You all moved down into the quarry, all the persons who were there, Johannes Mabotha was there, everybody was there. What happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Britz and I were already preparing the charge. It was quite dark. I did not have a look at what was going on around me, I was busy with handling the explosives with Mr Britz. A shot was fired, Mr Mabotha's body came to us, we undressed the body and Mr Britz and I placed him around the explosives ...(intervention)
MR CORNELIUS: Wait a moment. Could it be that two shots were fired?
MR VERMEULEN: It's possible, I'm not sure and I will not argue against it.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you see that Johannes Mabotha was shot?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you see who shot him?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I did not, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And then you positioned him in a sitting position and after that you had undressed him.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Why?
MR VERMEULEN: Because in an explosion the clothing will not be totally destroyed and the idea was to destroy all the evidence that was there.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened to the clothes, Mr Vermeulen?
MR VERMEULEN: After the incident the clothes were burnt, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Evidence was given here that it was 25 kilograms of charge placed in between his legs.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you then clear up the premises?
MR VERMEULEN: After the cortex was wound around the body I went back to where the weapons were and Mr Britz continued with the further arrangements.
MR CORNELIUS: So he placed the detonators there and made the final arrangements for the explosion?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And after everybody had cleared away from the scene did you ...
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson, we fired some shots with a machine-gun. We all started shooting together when the explosion took place.
MR CORNELIUS: To cover up the noise?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Who detonated the explosive?
MR VERMEULEN: It was Dawid Britz, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you investigate the scene afterwards?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, not that evening.
MR CORNELIUS: When did you investigate the scene?
MR VERMEULEN: The following day we moved through there and the explosive that had remained was destroyed in the same hole, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you find any remains of the body?
MR VERMEULEN: Not that I can remember, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Wouter Mentz and Leon Flores and de Kock returned that evening to Pretoria?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And at all times you executed your orders within the scope of your duties?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: With the political motivation as you have said earlier?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive a bonus, receive any money?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I did not, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You just received your usual salary?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you just performed your duties?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any personal malice towards Mabotha?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You request amnesty from this Committee for the murder of Johannes Mabotha, conspiracy, offences with regard to the Arms and Ammunition Act, offences with regard to the Dangerous Weapons Act, as well as intimidation and defeating the ends of justice, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on behalf of de Kock.
Mr Vermeulen, you say that the man's clothes were burnt afterwards.
MR HATTINGH: Did you go through the pockets of the clothing?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Were you present when they arrived with him there at the mine?
MR VERMEULEN: I heard the vehicles coming, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Where were you then?
MR VERMEULEN: I was already making preparations at the quarry.
MR HATTINGH: Did you see whether he had any baggage with him? Except for the clothing that he wore, was there anything else that you had burnt of his?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, not that I am aware of.
MR HATTINGH: Where did you find the explosives that you had used?
MR VERMEULEN: We received it from Vlakplaas, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Was it commercial or military type of explosive?
MR VERMEULEN: It was military charge, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you have free access to such explosives?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, we received it from the weapon storage.
MR HATTINGH: But I mean at Vlakplaas, was there a lot of these explosives there?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: The terrain there, Mr Vermeulen, it is a place where they mined asbestos?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson. When we investigated the scene much later they had already started with the rehabilitation of the area by covering up the asbestos remains with a metre of soil. Was it done then already or was it not done yet?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So with regard to the asbestos remains, it was still open?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Were there hills, holes and such, was it not uneven?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, it was uneven, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So there were reasonably high embankments where the rest of, the remains of the asbestos were left?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR LAMEY: Lamey on behalf of Klopper, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Roeloff du Plessis on behalf of Mentz, Mr Chairman. A few questions.
Mr Vermeulen, can you recall if any liquor was present at the mine?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Can you recall that there was?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Can you recall how it got there?
MR VERMEULEN: It was my own personal liquor that we took along to consume after the exercise.
MR DU PLESSIS: And what was it, beer?
MR VERMEULEN: It was beer, Chairperson. There could have been hard liquor, but I only drink beer.
MR DU PLESSIS: Did anybody else bring any liquor along or do you not know?
MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot say, but I think Lionel also had his own liquor.
MR DU PLESSIS: And is it possible that Wouter Mentz also had his own liquor?
MR VERMEULEN: It is possible, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Are you saying that before the operation or before the death of Mr Mabotha, you had not consumed any liquor?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: And where were you exactly before the death of Mr Mabotha?
MR VERMEULEN: I was inside the hole with the explosives.
MR DU PLESSIS: How long were you there approximately?
MR VERMEULEN: That's difficult to say because we were putting out the wires there, we made the weapons stand there.
MR DU PLESSIS: It may have been a long while.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, it could have been a long while, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: And in the meantime the others were there where Mr Mabotha was questioned.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, they were close to the ruins, yes.
MR DU PLESSIS: So you don't know what had happened up there at the house?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: So you don't know whether Mr Mentz had consumed liquor before Mr Mabotha's death?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: And can you recall if Wouter Mentz had drunk with you afterwards?
MR VERMEULEN: I cannot recall, Chairperson, because if I have my facts correctly they immediately left after the explosion.
MR DU PLESSIS: But it is possible that he might have consumed some liquor afterwards.
MR VERMEULEN: It may be, Chairperson, but we did not drink directly after the explosion, it must have been an half an hour or so later.
MR DU PLESSIS: You were not up at the house, so therefore you cannot comment about Wouter Mentz' evidence that Mabotha was cuffed to a pole?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I cannot, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: You say there was no chair onto which he was placed before he was blown up?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Why do you think that Mr Mentz would have said that, or do you know?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Chairperson, I don't have the vaguest idea.
MR DU PLESSIS: Where does he come with this chair story?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Is it possible that at that stage he was under the influence of alcohol? Do you concede that it's a possibility?
MR VERMEULEN: I doubt it, Chairperson. It may be, but I doubt it.
MR DU PLESSIS: I have not further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CHAIRPERSON: What would Mr de Kock's attitude have been if Mr Mentz had been there under the influence of alcohol?
MR VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock wouldn't have tolerated that, Sir.
MR MARIBANA: Chair, it's Maribana for the Mabotha family.
MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, JC Maribana for the Mabotha family.
Mr Vermeulen, I just want to find out one thing here. You said that you were an expert in explosives, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR MARIBANA: And I just want to find out for how long before this incident you were being equipped with the knowledge of using explosives.
MR VERMEULEN: From 1976, Mr Chairman.
MR MARIBANA: So lastly, Mr Vermeulen, were you regularly contacted or requested by Mr de Kock or some of your colleagues to assist in exploding the bodies?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel. Sir, in your application you've stated that after you had got to Penge Mine, that de Kock and some other members of Vlakplaas came there with a black man who was then questioned by de Kock. Can you recall whether Mr de Kock came there at the same time as everybody else?
MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall, Mr de Kock came after Mr Britz' vehicle arrived, Mr Chairman.
MS PATEL: How long after, Sir?
M' VERMEULEN: I'm not sure, I can't put a time limit to that, Mr Chairman.
MS PATEL: Was it a short while or an hour, two hours?
MR VERMEULEN: I would say it was a short while.
MS PATEL: Short while, okay. And your information here that the person was questioned by Mr de Kock, were you present during that time?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I wasn't there at that stage, I was already in the hole, in the quarry.
MS PATEL: Okay. Is your evidence that as soon as Mr de Kock arrived at Penge Mine, that you then went down to the quarry?
MR VERMEULEN: Ja, that is correct.
MS PATEL: Did you have to drive to the quarry?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you give us a rough estimate of how long you were in the quarry before Mr de Kock came there with Mr Mabotha?
MR VERMEULEN: I would say about roughly an half an hour.
MS PATEL: Half an hour.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MS PATEL: Were you close enough when you were in the quarry, to witness what was going on between Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was close enough, but at that stage I wasn't attending to their stories, I was busy with the explosives.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you recall whether you heard a discussion between ...
MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't hear any discussion.
MS PATEL: So there was no talking from anybody?
MR VERMEULEN: I didn't listen. Even if there were any discussions, I wouldn't have been listening to it.
MS PATEL: So you can't tell us in what state Mr Mabotha would have been at that stage either?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
MR SIBANYONI: Just one question, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Vermeulen, Mr Britz says when he saw you at Penge Mine it was for the first time that he realised that Mabotha was going to be killed. Do you know why he says so?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know why he said
that.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You had explosives there, didn't you?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR HATTINGH: Nine thirty, Mr Chair.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, there were some hiccups, Mr Chair, which I won't go into.
CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
