MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I call the following applicant. It is Christian Siebert Rorich.
CHRISTIAN SIEBERT RORICH: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Rorich, your amnesty application is number 5011/97, and is embodied from page 35, is that correct?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And your written application is up to page 37, and then the incident is from page 38 to 40, is that correct?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And then the political background is from page 41 up to page 48, is that correct.
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you do confirm the contents of this statement?
MR RORICH: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Rorich, during this incident, where were you stationed?
MR RORICH: I was stationed at the Security Branch in Ermelo.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you received a certain instruction, what was the instruction while you were still in Ermelo?
MR RORICH: The instruction to myself and to my colleague, van Zweel, was that we had to go to Oshoek where would receive further instruction.
MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you this instruction?
MR RORICH: My immediately commander, Colonel Deetlefs.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you in the same manner as Mr van Zweel, on page 38 you mention that
"On that day, Brigadier Cronje and de Kock arrived at our offices in Ermelo."
This is the offices of Ermelo at Oshoek border post, so Ermelo has an office at Oshoek?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And were any instructions given to you at Oshoek?
MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson, except that we had to go along with Warrant Officer Pienaar to a hotel in Swaziland.
MS VAN DER WALT: And did you receive any instructions at the hotel?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: What was the instruction to you?
MR RORICH: Chairperson, it was told to us that we are there to execute an operation on a house which occupied by Zweli Nyanda, in Manzini and it was explained to us what every person's position would be during the operation.
MS VAN DER WALT: What did you have to go and do at the house?
MR RORICH: The instruction was that we had to - Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence, or by the other names I knew him, Raymond, Cyril and Fear ...
MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know Nyanda and Lawrence, or did you have information before this particular day?
MR RORICH: We had information by means of our sources and we knew these people from physical observations which we did in Swaziland from time to time.
MS VAN DER WALT: What was your further instruction with regard to other people in the house?
MR RORICH: The instruction was quite clear from Brigadier Cronje, that when we enter the house everybody in the house had to be killed.
MS VAN DER WALT: What was your specific instruction, what did you have to do?
MR RORICH: The instruction that I received was to support the previous applicant, Mr van Dyk, and to give him some cover at the back of the house and that Mr Almond Nofomela would accompany me and supply this cover, because we had to man two windows and there was a door in-between the windows that would not be opened. The reason why this door would not be opened was the fact that if we enter from two sides, we would fire upon each other.
MS VAN DER WALT: And did you ever enter the house?
MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Did you fire any shots that particular evening?
MR RORICH: No, Chairperson, it was not necessary because nobody came through those windows that we had under observation.
MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see that evening that persons were killed?
MR RORICH: Yes, Chairperson, only when the operation was concluded and we moved back to the vehicles I saw the naked body of Zweli Nyanda, where he lay there a few steps from the gate where we had to go out to our cars.
MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any person who had run away from there?
MR RORICH: I did not see, Chairperson, not from my side.
MS VAN DER WALT: And were you on the side where Mr de Kock initially took up position?
MR RORICH: No, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: You were on the opposite side?
MR RORICH: Yes, entirely on the opposite side.
MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any woman who was in the house?
MR RORICH: Not at that stage, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you further mention on page 40, paragraph 8, that later you had heard that except for Zweli Nyanda, McFadden was also shot there.
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And that Lawrence had succeeded in escaping and you also heard later that Lawrence was under suspicion of espionage, who gave you this information?
MR RORICH: This was received from information which was channelled by sources to our offices and from our offices to our Regional Office at Middelburg and from there to Head Office. That is the road that the information took.
MS VAN DER WALT: And after you departed from the house, where did you go to?
MR RORICH: We went directly to the hotel room, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And were any discussions held there?
MR RORICH: Very briefly Chairperson. Because we were in a hurry we wanted to clear up our stuff because we did not want to spend the rest of the evening there.
MS VAN DER WALT: You then apply for amnesty in this incident with regard to conspiracy to murder or an accessory to murder or any other offence which might emanate from these acts that were guilty of there, is that correct?
MR RORICH: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: As well as any other unlawful act which might flow from this action?
MR RORICH: Yes, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Mention was made that you would have shot a certain person in the foot.
MR RORICH: That is not true.
MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of a person who was shot in the foot?
MR RORICH: One of the two Askaris were shot in the foot, but I'm not sure which one it was.
MS VAN DER WALT: But you didn't fire any shots?
MR RORICH: No, I didn't fire any shots.
MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: You were however armed, weren't you?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were stationed there to kill anybody who came out of the house?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: To assist in the operation?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you did so?
MR RORICH: Yes, I did, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR KNIGHT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT
MR PRINSLOO: Prinsloo on record, Chairperson, No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Visser on record, Mr Chairman.
Mr Rorich, with reference to page 38 of the bundle, I see that you and some of the other applicants refer to Zweli Nyanda and E G Lawrence as first and second-in-command of the Natal Machinery, was the information that was known at that stage?
MR RORICH: That is correct, Chairperson, Zweli Nyanda was the chief of MK, responsible for the Natal Machinery. As I have heard, McFadden was his second-in-command.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: What time did you leave the hotel, that is after the operation? - approximately. Was it the early hours of the morning or ...?
MR RORICH: It was late at night, I'm not sure now. I cannot give you a time now.
MR MOHLABA: And when you booked in the hotel, did you use your true names?
MR RORICH: Yes, this was not a problem.
MR MOHLABA: And did you check out normally?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any other questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel, thank you, Sir.
Mr Rorich, do you have any idea what the relationship between the Swazi Police and members of your branch, from Ermelo I believe, was?
MR RORICH: We did not have any problems with each other, we had friends amongst the Swazi Police. Police Forces all over the world are friendly towards each other.
MS PATEL: Would they from time to time supply you with information?
MR RORICH: At some stage we exchanged information, that is so, yes. - on a level of crime. That's what it was about.
MS PATEL: What type of crime are you referring to?
MR RORICH: Serious crime.
MS PATEL: Okay. You interest however, in the Security Branch would have been crimes of a political nature, not so?
MR RORICH: Yes, that is correct.
MS PATEL: So that is what your interest would have been and that's the kind of information that you would have exchanged, not so?
MR RORICH: Not necessarily.
MS PATEL: Are you saying that you were involved in just your normal type of crime that didn't relate to the political situation at the time?
MR RORICH: No, that is not what I'm saying to you, what I am saying to you, Chairperson with respect, what I am telling you is that normal information with regard to serious types of crimes you can discuss with a friend of yours. If it has regard to a political thing and he has something to say to that he will tell it to me, if he doesn't have it or he doesn't want to, he won't give it to me. But we were based on information which we received from sources, individual persons.
MS PATEL: Did you assist Mr Pienaar in collating information about Mr Nyanda and Lawrence, specifically for this operation?
MR RORICH: As colleagues we did work together, that is so.
MS PATEL: Okay. According to your information, what you remember at that time, can you recall whether there was any discussion about Mr McFadden, during the planning of this operation?
MR RORICH: Not at all, not at all, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: According to your information at that stage, do you know whether Mr McFadden was involved with Mr Nyanda, on any level at that stage?
MR RORICH: We knew that Mr McFadden was involved as a collaborator and that at many times he was in the presence of Mr Zweli Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, but we could not have foreseen that other people would have been in the house. That was not possible to have foreseen something like that, anything was possible.
MS PATEL: Okay. The instruction at that stage was that everybody was to be killed in the house, regardless of who you found.
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Did you receive any information immediately prior to this operation taking place, that Mr Nyanda's home had in fact been raided?
MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson, I'm not aware of it.
MS PATEL: Was there no information of this nature that came to your knowledge after the operation?
MR RORICH: Not through our sources, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: And not through your friends that you might have had in the Swazi Police either?
MR RORICH: No, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay. Did you know Gavin McFadden?
MR RORICH: No, I don't know that man.
MS PATEL: Okay. Did you have any dealings with Edgar Hillary, the Commissioner of Police from the Swazi Police?
MR RORICH: I knew the person as the Commissioner, but I did not personally deal with him, that was not on my level.
MS PATEL: Okay. On whose level would it have been, from your side?
MR RORICH: Senior officers.
MS PATEL: Who would that have been, Mr Deetlefs?
MR RORICH: Mr Deetlefs or his High Command in Pretoria.
MS PATEL: Okay. Did you make a report to Mr Deetlefs after the operation?
MR RORICH: No, I did not report to him.
MS PATEL: Okay. You've stated you didn't see anybody escape from the house during the operation.
MR RORICH: No, I didn't see that.
MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Rorich, I heard you referring to Mr Nofomela and Mr Bosigu as the two Askaris who backed your team, but my understanding is that at that stage they were constables, they were in the employ of the police, is that not correct?
MR RORICH: Yes, these were people from Vlakplaas.
MR SIBANYONI: But why do you refer to them as Askaris?
MR RORICH: That's what they were.
MR SIBANYONI: Before they were employed?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: And then again you said the information that Lawrence was suspected of espionage came through the sources which was channelled up until your office, where were these sources based?
MR RORICH: We had several sources, Chairperson, most of whom were based in Swaziland.
MR SIBANYONI: Are these who were based in Swaziland who told you about the allegations against Mr Lawrence?
MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: No questions from me, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, if I can just place something on record in respect of Nofomela. He was never an Askari, he was in fact a constable from the start.
ADV SANDI: That's the way I have always known it, that he was a member of the Police Force, and not an Askari. Although frequently you find that the black guys are generally reflected as Askaris, if they were at Vlakplaas.
MR RORICH: That's how I knew him. I could have made a mistake, and that would my fault.
MS VAN DER WALT: May he be excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS VAN DER WALT: That is then the case for my two applicants, Chairperson.
RECALL OF EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK
CHAIRPERSON: There appear to be no more applicants or witnesses at the present time. As I think you are all aware, we had made arrangements for an inspection of sorts this afternoon. I'm afraid I do not know the details that have been agreed upon, but I hope you have been told, those of you who are interested. And the proposal is that we should then take the adjournment - as I understand it, that we should take the adjournment now till Thursday morning, because there is some other event taking place tomorrow.
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, before we adjourn, there was just Mr Cronje's version of the incident, that I, in all fairness, would have wanted to put to Mr de Kock. I shouldn't take more than a few minutes I would imagine.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose it's necessary to remind you that you're under your previous oath, Mr de Kock.
EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (s.u.o.)
I'm very well aware of it, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr de Kock, are you ready?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, I am.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr de Kock, I just want to put to you, Mr Cronje's version regarding the instructions that were given for this operation. He states clearly that Brigadier Schoon had told him that the target, the primary target would have been Mr Nyanda only and that investigations had to be done around where he lived and that kind of thing, and that subsequently he says that there was information about Cecil or Lawrence or Fear or whichever one you want to use, and that he had informed or that he had told Brigadier Schoon about that information that they had, but the instruction was clearly about Mr Nyanda only and whoever else was in the house and that there were no discussions about specific targets barr Mr Nyanda, except for the general instruction that whoever else was there should be killed.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I was not present when the discussion between Mr Cronje and Mr Schoon took place. The discussion which was held, which Mr Cronje held with me, according to my recollection and my evidence yesterday, is that this was a group which was spreading terrorism and had to be destroyed. If I'm mistaken, I would just like to say that we will have to decide about that, but my recollection is the same as my evidence yesterday afternoon and I will stand by that. That is my answer.
MS PATEL: Alright. In fairness I should also put to you that he stated that he didn't know who McFadden was and that at the time that he shot and killed Mr McFadden, he in fact assumed that that was Cecil who was meant to be the other person in the house and it was only after the incident that he was told that it was McFadden, but that prior to the incident he didn't about McFadden.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in the security reports, McFadden's name appeared very regularly. He was prominent in that regard, as a collaborator and a conspirator. There was speculation when we returned to the hotel after the shooting, about who this person may have been, whether it was McFadden or somebody else. The idea was left there. There was no certainty at that stage about who it was that lay there dead.
MS PATEL: Okay. In fact he goes so far as to say that McFadden was just somebody who was just shot in the course of the operation.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he was shot in the course of the operation. However, he was a prominent person, he was instrumental in the success which Nyanda achieved here as well as Cyril. And there was no Cecil, his name was Cyril.
MS PATEL: That might be so, but it wasn't foreseen by Cronje at that stage, McFadden wasn't somebody as a target who was foreseen by Cronje at that stage. That is as far as I wish to take that.
MR DE KOCK: I will differ with him in that regard. I'm not saying that he is incorrect, I am saying this in all concession and respect.
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
ADV SANDI: Mr de Kock, as I understand this, is it not the position that when you went there you were sure that Mr Nyanda was going to be there, but you were not so sure about Mr McFadden?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in my mind I was entirely certain about Cyril and Nyanda, but not McFadden, there you are correct. But I was completely certain when we saw the car there, that Nyanda and Cyril were there. That was a definite given.
ADV SANDI: Ja, but in any case Mr McFadden at that stage was known to you, as well as his activities.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct, but I wouldn't have said that he was in the house, I wouldn't have been able to determine that he was in the house. And he was however a target.
ADV SANDI: Just on another issue now. There was no discussion as such between yourself and Mr Schoon, the discussion took place between Schoon and Mr Cronje, not so?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We don't want to delay things very much longer, but we've heard evidence that no arms, no weapons were found in the house.
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, no weapons were found.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that Brigadier Cronje in his evidence said that weapons were found in the house? I'm reading from page 263, line 25
"I do not know if he was armed. As I said there were weapons found in the house."
You don't know anything about that, it must be wrong?
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR DE KOCK: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: What time on Thursday morning, same as usual? And I have my usual request that if you are still asking for amnesty for your clients, will you please let us have in writing precisely what offences you are asking amnesty in connection with. Nine thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
