NEIL GRIFFITHS POTSANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?
EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Potsane, you have made an application for amnesty and subsequent to your application for amnesty you depose to a supplementary statement. Please have a look at Exhibit A in front of you and turn to page 8 of that bundle, particularly pages 8, 9 and 10. Do you confirm that that is your statement and that that is your signature at page 10?
MR POTSANE: Yes I do.
MR BERGER: Mr Potsane, you were born on the 2nd March 1960, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And you were born in Soweto?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Could you briefly tell the Committee about your life as you were growing up, where you went to school and how it was, why it was that you came to leave the country?
MR POTSANE: As it has been already told that I was born in Soweto, that is in the year of 1960. But it happened that the following year when I was age 1, my father took a contract in Welkom to work in the mines. As it happened that's where I started school in Pulukong Village up until Standard 4 and then I came back, you know, we had to come back to Johannesburg in 1973 where I started school again in Umkatutu Primary School in Soweto. I was in Standard 5 then and during those days there was this aptitude test which used to be conducted when you are doing Standard 5. I participated in that aptitude test and I passed it. As a result I was able to jump Standard 6 to go to Form 1 and what had happened actually that I think around when I was doing Standard 5, I was preparing myself, you know, especially in terms so far when I'll be entering high school because you know the medium of instruction at high school is English, so I used to go to the library and collect books and read. Well to my disappointment, you know, when you got to form 1, the medium of instruction was Afrikaans.
MR BERGER: How old were you at that time?
MR POTSANE: I was 14 years old.
MR BERGER: And besides going to school you were also holding down certain jobs, is that right?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is correct.
MR BERGER: What sort of jobs were you doing?
MR POTSANE: The kinds of jobs I was doing, my father was old, so a qualified builder so where from time to time when he's got a piece job, you know, to do on weekends, will go and help my father to build, to do the houses and the one particular job I know which I ultimately held was there was this man who had a business of selling coal and what happened was that he used to deliver coal to people, you know, without collecting money. My job was to collect money on weekends and will be paid somewhere at a fee of R2.50 a day.
MR BERGER: And you would give that money to your parents?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: What were your ambitions at the time when you entered form 1, did you have any ambition with what to do with your life?
MR POTSANE: Yes I had an ambition. I think my ambitions then was to study like mechanical engineering.
When I got to form 1, that's like - it became so difficult to be able to cope, you know, with the requirements not like now, there were lessons that were conducted like we're doing history in Afrikaans, Maths in Afrikaans, everything was like totally new. I wasn't fluent in Afrikaans and I wasn't prepared, you know, to study in Afrikaans, to presume my studies in Afrikaans.
MR BERGER: We know that in that year, June 16th, the students revolted against the use of Afrikaans in the schools. Were you part of that uprising?
MR POTSANE: Yes I was.
MR BERGER: And were you present in Soweto on June 16th when the shootings began, those ...(indistinct)? At that stage you were how old?
MR POTSANE: I was 16 years old.
MR BERGER: Did you write exams that year?
MR POTSANE: I did write exams that year which were never completed as a result where the teacher ...(indistinct) said because it's going to be like if say everyone is - had to remain where they are, it was going to cause us some kind of a backlog. So they agreed that people can jump to the next standard.
MR BERGER: Then in 1977 you came to a decision to leave the country, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is correct.
MR BERGER: Why, what prompted you to leave the country?
MR POTSANE: Well, I wouldn't say that I was politically involved, that is prior to June 16. But it then so happened that when June 16th was organised some activist people who were leading the campaign, these are just certain schools, the school that I was also ...(indistinct) attended and he came back at home and said there had been a sign to write some placards and I should have been whereupon we took a piece of corrugated iron in a joke to write, you know, what exactly was - how did he feel about Afrikaans, you know, particularly asked me to write, to come up with an idea, you know. I think I didn't realise at the time how angry I was in terms of my career having to have been diverted by the usage of Afrikaans in medium ...(indistinct) because that particular year of 1974 when I was doing form 1, I actually failed and at that time, you know, I realised now I was still bitter about it, you know. When I wrote that slogan my father was present and I grew up in a Christian family and for the first time, you know, I wrote like Afrikaans is bullshit and you know, that showed now how I was angry with Afrikaans you know, to talk such a word you know, in front of my father.
And then, well the following day, I went to school as normal, when I didn't expect anything in particular to happen, you know, as to what was organised now, I just thought there's something that's going to take maybe an hour or two and then it will be finished, you know? So I went to school as normal, when we got to school at that time I was still writing exams. I think the paper we were going to write was kind of postponed, that we were going to write in the afternoon, so we were kind of in the premises of the school yard, not doing much, just talking to friends and then it just came up that people from Orlando High School which was kind of opposite to our school, they were coming on like in groups, you know, coming to try to you know to join them and participate in the protest, you know, against Afrikaans. I think at that time me and my friends said well, looks like now there won't be any fighting, so we said to go back home and then well I was starting in Orlando and my home is at Dube so we walked back to Dube. That's when we got to Uncle Tom's Hall, you know, there was this large group of students, so huge that it struck me that something really was happening here and I became interested, you know, to see you know, it's like the idea of going back home, I went to that group and joined it and I considered - everybody was excited you know, all kinds of slogans you know, students were holding placards and all kinds of protest against Afrikaans being taught at schools, that's the medium of instruction which you know, in my mind I totally agreed with them and I think from then on I joined them. Well apparently by that time you know, it had already happened that Hector Pietersen had already been shot and the mood of the students at the time was very charged you know and the looting had just begun, you know, started stoning like all the business vehicles that were coming into Soweto to make business.
MR BERGER: Mr Potsane, I want to take you from June 16th to the decision to the time when you decided that you must leave the country. What prompted you because you didn't leave on June 16th?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: You left at the end of 1977?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: What prompted you to leave at the end of 1977 and what did you hope to do after you'd left the country?
MR POTSANE: Well what prompted me to leave you know around -at the end of 1977, you know it was mainly the response of the security forces, you know, the police and the army you know who from the day of the June 16th came into Soweto and their conduct you know, was so cruel from that day. People were just being shot, children including others. Each and every morning when you opened the gate during those times a person had been shot somewhere. It was difficult to me in those days, you know, you'd given up these things that you know, you just cannot go on this way, you know, something had to be done and I think I made up my mind in 1977 that I am going to join MK.
MR BERGER: You were 17 years old at the time?
MR POTSANE: I was 17 years old. I left on the 22nd December to Lesotho not to go to school because in my mind, you know, education was not the burning issue, liberation was.
MR BERGER: You joined the ANC in Lesotho?
MR POTSANE: I joined the African National Congress in Lesotho.
MR BERGER: As well as uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR POTSANE: As well as uMkhonto weSizwe, that is right.
MR BERGER: Now from 1977 until 1986 or end of '85 you remained a member of uMkhonto weSizwe, is that right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: You received training in various parts of the world, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Very briefly could you tell the Committee where you were trained and in what you were trained?
MR POTSANE: Well I did a commander's course in Angola about eleven months and then that was in 1979. In 1980 I specialised in anti-aircraft and in 1981 I went to do a course in Germany in guerrilla warfare. Well that's about all.
MR BERGER: And that was in 1981?
MR POTSANE: 1981.
MR BERGER: Then after you came back from East Germany that would have been about the middle of 1981, am I correct?
MR POTSANE: Yes that was in June 1981.
MR BERGER: From then until February 1985 where were you?
MR POTSANE: From then until 1985 I worked in the camps doing the rest duties including driving, leadership around Angola and in 1985 I was redeployed to Lusaka where I joined the political headquarters.
MR BERGER: And you worked there from 1985 until?
MR POTSANE: I worked there until 1985 until December of 1985 when I joined the elimination unit which was led by Jabu Masina.
MR BERGER: Now you didn't enter the country at the same time as Jabu Masina and Ting-Ting Masango, is that right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: You followed at a later stage?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: With whom did you enter the country?
MR POTSANE: I entered the country with Joseph Makhura, Rufus Pala and Mandla Sogo.
MR BERGER: And when the four of you entered the country is it correct you entered with a large quantity of arms and ammunition as well?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: What sort of arms and ammunition did you have with you?
MR POTSANE: Well, in our consignment we had AK47's and ammunition, hand grenades, limpet mines, land mines and RPG 7 Bazuka.
MR BERGER: And all these arms and ammunition was furnished to you by the leadership of MK?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: For the purposes of the work of the elimination unit?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: You came to the Winterveld Mamelodi region is that right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And you split up?
MR POTSANE: Who went where?
MR BERGER: Me and Jabu, that is we went to stay in Mamelodi and the rest of the unit, that is Mandla, Rufus, Ting-Ting and Makuka remained in Winterveld. The reason is that all of them were from Mamelodi and they were known there so it wouldn't be fit for them to stay in Mamelodi.
MR BERGER: Whereas you and Jabu Masina were from Soweto?
MR POTSANE: We were from Soweto.
MR BERGER: Now is it correct that as far the planting of the anti-tank land mine in Mamelodi is concerned and the shooting of Sergeant Vuma, Sinki Vuma, you were not yet in the country when those incidents occurred?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: The first incident that you were involved in, was the shooting of Mr Lukhele, is that right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Can you explain to the Committee how events unfolded as far as the shooting of Mr Lukhele is concerned?
MR POTSANE: At a certain point in time now, Mr Masango came up with a document which bore the name of the present party of Kangwane and that of Mr Lukhele as the author, the document stated that as ...(indistinct) wanted Kangwane to be incorporated into Swaziland and it also stated that the police that is the security forces should continue occupying the townships and to uphold the state of emergency. The things that we found now were not in line with first now the way the African National Congress viewed things to go and the way the people never wanted a state of emergency and they never wanted the police in the township and therefore it was irrational document you know, to us, you know it said that we should do something about it. We discuss it among ourselves whether now the author of the document that was Mr Lukhele at the time can be taken as, you know, as a target for elimination for his part in doing this and as the leader also of the opposition party of Kangwane.
And one other thing was that I think earlier this year, it was '85, Mr Enos Mabuza who was the leader of the party which was responsible for governing Kangwane had come to Lusaka, was in Lusaka at that time, I also heard the lot now in moving them around.
MR BERGER: In moving Mr Mabuza and his delegation around?
MR POTSANE: Around Lusaka and when they were actually meeting the African National Congress and it was actually some - he was quite welcome and we viewed Mr Mabuza as a friend of the African National Congress. Well after discussing all those factors amongst ourselves we decided that Mr Lukhele should be eliminated but then we came to an impasse of some kind regarding because we did not actually not like - could have been that Mr Lukhele is on the side of the ANC. The fact that now Mr Mabuza was in the African National Congress last year, any other purpose now could be like a threat to the ANC but not yet come out, you know. So we decided that this matter should be referred to the leadership outside. We did that ...(intervention)
MR BERGER: What was the response?
MR POTSANE: And the response was in the affirmative that our analysis of the situation that he should be eliminated was correct and we were given a go ahead
MR BERGER: Alright, how did you go about the elimination of Mr Lukhele?
MR POTSANE: Well just the one thing that myself and Jabu Masina will take responsibility for taking out operations and I'll be responsible for the elimination part of it and then we did reconnaissance on the place. I don't know it was for how long but well we came up with the data, the final data of Mr Lukhele will be absent doing his duties in Kangwane and weekends will often come back home, that is on Friday.
MR BERGER: And the home is in Mamelodi?
MR POTSANE: The home is in Mamelodi.
MR BERGER: Right?
MR POTSANE: So on a Friday, that Friday we went there.
MR BERGER: That was the 6th June 1986?
MR POTSANE: That was the 6th June 1996.
MR BERGER: '86.
MR POTSANE: '86, that is correct. We went there, myself and Jabu. I was armed with an AK47 with two magazines, a total of 60 rounds each holding 13 and Jabu was armed with a pistol backing me up. Well we drove the car that we were using and went up to a distance away and from the actual house and we walked the rest of the distance.
When we got there now we noticed now that Mr Lukhele was in, was still in and the car was there. I then went inside the yard, went to knock on the door.
MR BERGER: This is the front door?
MR POTSANE: This is the front door.
MR BERGER: Right?
MR POTSANE: A man opened the door but I couldn't say at the time because I haven't seen Mr Lukhele at the time but now I wasn't sure whether it was Mr Lukhele.
MR BERGER: Can I just stop you there for a moment? You had your AK47 and the two rounds, the two magazines with you?
MR POTSANE: I had the two magazines with me and my AK47.
MR BERGER: And you concealed it some way?
MR POTSANE: Yes I concealed it inside my - in the background which I was wearing. So because I was not sure whether it was Mr Lukhele so I said no well, it don't be fair not to take him on the door here, let me get inside and see what's the situation there, that is if he is the only man there and then it will mean that there is Mr Lukhele. I went in and that's when I passed the door, there was a lady sitting next to the door here and another lady was sitting across the table on the other side.
MR BERGER: On a sofa?
MR POTSANE: On a sofa, that's right.
MR BERGER: You indicate that to your left?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is to my left as I entered.
MR BERGER: As you entered, yes.
MR POTSANE: Yes. So I went in. Those were the only three people in the room that is including Mr Lukhele who was at the time, you know, I left him at the door. And then I went in because I told Mr Lukhele I had been sent. He said I should go and take a seat which I did not because I just went in and turned around and when I turned around it means Mrs Lukhele at that time was sitting, was now on my right hand side and I was facing Mr Lukhele.
MR BERGER: Where was he?
MR POTSANE: I think he was beginning to come from the door, that is in my direction.
MR BERGER: And the other woman that you'd seen, was she still sitting next to the door?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is right. Then I took out my weapon which was already now ready to shoot at the time and began to fire. Well the type of fire that it was in short burst.
MR BERGER: And you were firing at?
MR POTSANE: I was firing at Mr Lukhele. I can't remember it was on the first short burst or the second short burst, he fell down where I continued fire at him.
MR BERGER: Now when you fired at him, when you started firing at him, he was near the door?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is correct.
MR BERGER: And the other woman who we know was Mrs Glugu, she was still sitting next to the door?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: When you fired at him you were also firing in her direction were you not?
MR POTSANE: I'll say yes, I was firing also in her direction but my target was Mr Lukhele.
MR BERGER: Did you plan to kill Mrs Glugu?
MR POTSANE: No I never planned to kill Mrs Glugu.
MR BERGER: Did you know that with an AK47 in such a small confined space the chances are that you could hit someone, that you don't intend to hit?
MR POTSANE: Yes that is correct.
MR BERGER: And what was your attitude?
MR POTSANE: Well, I think it should be understood that there are pressures that exist you know, especially when operating inside the country, when you get the target and you don't deal that target at that time, the chances are that, you know, you might never get that target again and my attitude was that the job had to be done on that day and had to finish that day.
MR BERGER: How did it come about that Mrs Lukhele was hit because as you say she was sitting to the right of where you were shooting?
MR POTSANE: Well what happened, as I was continuing firing at Mr Lukhele who was actually on the floor by that time, Mrs Lukhele crawled on her knees. I think in my mind I was saying she was trying to escape, you know. That's when as she turned a corner, because it's a sofa, she crawled from the sofa and as she turned, you know, she was hit on the foot.
MR BERGER: You indicate with your hands that she moved from the sofa in the direction of the door.
MR POTSANE: Ja, of where Mr Lukhele was lying.
MR BERGER: When he fell can you recall how he fell, in which direction?
MR POTSANE: He fell exactly in front of Mrs Glugu, he fell like his body was more to the right of where Mrs Glugu was sitting and ...(indistinct) her legs were just around where Mrs Glugu was sitting?
MR POTSANE: His legs?
MR POTSANE: But the body was much more to the right.
MR BERGER: In the direction of Mrs Lukhele?
MR POTSANE: In the direction of Mrs Lukhele, that is right.
MR BERGER: If you had wanted to kill Mrs Lukhele, could you have?
MR POTSANE: If it was my task you know and we had planned to kill all the occupants in the room or everybody who we found in the room, I still had you know, enough ammunition with me to do that because when I left, I left with the impression that I'd injured Mrs Lukhele, whom I'd seen you know, shooting on the leg. But for the part of Mrs Glugu, that I knew that I learned when I read the newspapers in the morning that she was hit and actually killed.
MR BERGER: Did she fall off the chair?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: How much ammunition did you use?
MR POTSANE: Well I used the rest of the first magazine and just when I got out and loaded another magazine and left.
MR BERGER: Did you shoot any rounds from the second magazine?
MR POTSANE: No, not at all.
MR BERGER: You say you then left, you joined up with Jabu Masina and then you left the scene.
MR POTSANE: Now I then left the room, met with Jabu Masina outside and then we both retreated back to where we stayed.
MR BERGER: Is there anything more about the incident that you want to say?
MR POTSANE: Now I'd like to tell this Committee that circumstances around that time, you know, which I must say that were forced upon us to do some of those actions, you know. There was such that I think we found ourselves with no choice but to do some of those actions which I must say that should the situation have been, had been otherwise, I would be very much happy that they never occurred and just like as much we have said, you know, purpose in our statements during the trial court that we regretted the killings especially of Mrs Glugu and the injury on Mrs Lukhele. I'd like to further on say now, especially to the family of Mrs Lukhele that today I'll say now including Mr Lukhele, if the situation never existed that I had to do what I did that day, I'll be a much happier person, you know, that a thing of that nature did not happen to anyone because it really does hurt to lose someone that you love. It doesn't matter under which circumstances.
MR BERGER: Mr Potsane, I want to move to the Silverton bomb. That was on the 4th July 1986. Now you were not involved in actually planting the bomb, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: But you were involved in discussions prior to the planting of the bomb, is that right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Can you briefly tell the Committee how it came about that there was a decision to plant that bomb and why?
MR POTSANE: Well I remember that day very well. Mr Masango came, kind of called a counsel that now we shall sit down and look into this matter and now he had located and seen a symbolic target which was in a form of a bus stop, a White bus stop in a White area, Silverton and he said you know, that target would actually enhance that why they further aims of the African National Congress because that is now like when we're discussing it now, we can all say that the White people of this country were actually putting a hand in the oppression now of the Black people of this country. They were the ones who actually made it possible for the National Party to govern, they never publicly criticised the - you know it's like I understand that I don't ever remember like White people going out to the street and demonstrating against the actions of the government. We're all ...(indistinct) in this country and we all read newspapers that did not know what was happening in the townships. I don't think that for them will be correct to say because I know that for instance they're very critical people, they knew what was happening and they just never cared and on those bases of affairs White civilians now had to be made aware one way or the other you know that there was a war going on in this country.
MR BERGER: How did you think and when I say you, I mean you all as a group, I mean how did you think that the planting of a bomb in a White - at a Whites only bus stop would further the aims of the African National Congress?
MR POTSANE: Well first of all we had a situation whereby the White people of this country were the only voters of that government, you know, which oppressed the Black people of this country and every time you know, it's not like you know, the National Party was there for 48 years and voted for it and all for how many times. Every time you know, the National Party wanted the mandate you know, they gave it willingly to the National Party and so on, we support you and if that is in our mind your know, they were responsible and they heard, they had to be made aware and in making them aware or bringing the war into their area where they lived in comfort, they will see that the National Party does not present or it is unfair you know for the National Party to think of them alone because the people out there who are suffering and therefore they will take appropriate action, you know, in terms of condemning the government of the day to bring about change.
MR BERGER: Did you have authority from the African National Congress to plant this bomb?
MR POTSANE: Yes we did.
MR BERGER: On what did you base that authority?
MR POTSANE: Well that authority if should it be that the previous African National Congress had a conference, now it is important to know what the conference is now, especially with the African National Congress. A conference is not - it's where each and everyone becomes an ordinary member in the ANC. There's no leadership, there's no one that is for instance going to start afresh. Everyone becomes an ordinary member, no elections are going to be conducted as to who is going to become the president, become what and in that conference as I say not like every member of the African National Congress is equal. Certain discussions are conducted, you know, including the situation in the country, especially the war which was going on and the African National Congress, as the African National Congress decided that the war is to be taken to the White areas, the issue on hard target and soft target was reviewed and ended up in a revolution that the distinction between hard and soft should disappear.
MR BERGER: You were not present at the Kabwe conference, is that right?
MR POTSANE: I was not present at the Kabwe conference.
MR BERGER: How did you come to know about the decisions taken at that conference?
MR POTSANE: Well what happened is conference are attended by delegates who are chosen from different regions. Well as we know that or most know that the African National Congress is all over the world so each and every like place, could be in Italy, could be in London, could be in America, could be in Angola, could be in Zambia, those people have to stand at delegation in - that delegation is going to express the views of the people now, where they come from, that they want the situation - we want you to go and tell the conference this is how we - so when they came back, because we have sent them, they must report back to us, that is these are the positions which we are taking at the conference.
MR BERGER: And you did attend such a report back?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Besides the decisions taken at Kabwe, were you aware of any other discussions within the African National Congress where this escalation of the conflict, escalation of the war from hard to including soft targets was discussed?
MR POTSANE: Ja there were discussions of that nature especially not like if one could remember very well a day before the conference that which was not only the only time but that had become a pattern which had been taken by the Nationalist Party government to go and attack refugees, that is in the neighbouring countries and they did that, you know, and I'm sure they did that knowing fully well that the following day we'll be going to sit down and discuss matters relating to the struggle in a conference like fashion and they went to Botswana and shot at refugees.
MR BERGER: You're referring to the raid on Gaberone on the 14th June 1985?
MR POTSANE: That is correct and not that that was the only influence as I've said, it was ...(indistinct) that had occurred in Matola, had already occurred in some other parts like in Lesotho. There were discussions among the people that had prior to that raid and even after that we should begin to make White civilians feel what the Black people were feeling now.
MR BERGER: Did you know about the songs about Andrew Zondo and the poems about Andrew Zondo.
MR POTSANE: Yes I did. Andrew Zondo hit a target in Amanzimtoti and it was one of the operations which we welcomed and we actually took him as a hero to do that kind of an operation.
MR BERGER: Now after the bomb was planted and exploded at Silverton, were you aware of the decision to report the fact that your units had planted that bomb, to report that to the leadership in Botswana?
MR POTSANE: Yes I was.
MR BERGER: Was there anyone in your unit who said we shouldn't report this incident to the leaders?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: Was there anyone in the unit who voiced an objection to say this is not ANC policy this will not advance the struggle?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: Were any disciplinary steps taken by the leadership against your unit?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: Was the unit recalled?
MR POTSANE: No.
MR BERGER: Was the unit allowed to continue with it's operations?
MR POTSANE: Yes that's right.
MR BERGER: The next operation was the planting of the anti-tank mine in Soshanguve?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And that one you were actually involved in the operation itself?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Very briefly, can you tell the Committee what your participation in that incident was?
MR POTSANE: Well my participation in that operation, I participated in providing security for Mr Makura who was actually the man who placed the land mine at that spot.
MR BERGER: What was the aim of that operation?
MR POTSANE: The aim of the operation after carefully like looking at the situation, there was a heap of soils in an environment where there was a whole construction and that heap of soil kind of prevented cars from getting over the other side because I think the tar was still wet or they've just laid a new tar so they were preventing cars from moving over into the other side so the heap was so huge and high that an ordinary car wouldn't be able to go over but then we did realise and say that military vehicles in the form of Casspirs were not deterred by that heap, they would just go over that heap of soil and go about, you know, their business of patrolling in the township so based on those reasons now, we decided we were going to plant a land mine there.
MR BERGER: And your target was to get one of those Casspirs?
MR POTSANE: Our target was to get one of the Casspirs.
MR BERGER: You've read Mr Makura's statement in relation to the planting of the land mine and the circumstances surrounding that and you confirm that his statement is true and correct, am I right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: As a result of your operations you were charged, you were arrested and you were charged and when you appeared before Judge de Klerk and two assessors, you and Mr Makura, Mr Masina, Masango, you refused to plead?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Why was that
MR POTSANE: Well, we refused to plead because after carefully analysing the situation amongst the four of us and analysing the previous cases which were - had gone before the South African law, we decided that in those courts there is no fair game.
MR BERGER: Not a fair game, you said?
MR POTSANE: Ja, there is no fair game in those courts, you are going to appear in front of that court, those courts were designed to tell the White public how horrible a person you are and uncivilised, so it was like for them, you know, they were playing a political game and that was the only political part of it, aspect of it and the second aspect, you know, ...(indistinct) you were soldiers of uMkhonto weSizwe and as a result now and ...(indistinct) to the Geneva Convention and we believed now we had the right not to stand trial in the civilian court but we tried in a military tribunal. Well we felt it was appropriate to discuss our issues in a military sense and well ensure that we were going to tell them that as much as they have declared, I think P W Botha at that time had already told the White community and the White civilians that the country was in a state of war and who they were fighting, they were - I mean there was no imaginary like enemy, they knew the enemy was the African National Congress and the forces of liberation which existed at that time.
MR BERGER: And your refusal to plead and your refusal to participate was a political stand on your side, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And is it correct that in fact all the acts for which you were charged, you were charged for furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: You knew that your failure or your refusal to participate in the proceedings was likely to result in the death penalty, am I right?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: What was your attitude and the attitude of your co-accused to that?
MR POTSANE: Well the attitude of - my attitude and attitude of - my co-accused at that time was it would be best if we adopt a line which is going to hit back at them by not recognising their authority and not recognising their structure, that is the court and in actual fact making a statement to our people that we are fighting a just war against an unjust system of apartheid which only saw us as criminals more than people who were fighting for democracy and it was also a message to the white people that gone are the days where they could dictate terms even if we are arrested, you know we can dictate our own terms.
MR BERGER: After you were convicted, the judge said to you that you now had to lead evidence to establish extenuating circumstances, do you remember that?
MR POTSANE: Yes I do remember.
MR BERGER: And he said that he recognised that you were refusing to participate because you were soldiers of uMkhonto weSizwe but that nevertheless you could lead evidence in extenuation without prejudice to your stand of being soldiers, do you remember that?
MR POTSANE: Yes I do.
MR BERGER: And do you remember what your response was?
MR POTSANE: Yes, our response we still refused to plead, you know, to make any extenuating circumstance in relation to our participation in the war to liberation, we still did not recognise the courts that we should be that we tried as, you know, as civilians. So we refused.
MR BERGER: Knowing that you would be sentenced to death?
MR POTSANE: Of which the judge had already indicated to us that if no extenuating circumstances in found they're going to - will be sentenced to death and still we refused.
MR BERGER: And is it correct that shortly before sentence was handed down, you and Mr Masina, Mr Masango, Mr Makhura, you appeared in court in the uniform of uMkhonto weSizwe?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And after that you were sentenced to death, expect for Mr Makhura?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: We know that subsequent to that you spent 18 months on death row?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: And it was only after that that the appellate division set aside your death sentences and substituted them with 25 years imprisonment?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BERGER: Mr Potsane, you've been sentenced, you've been tried, you've been sentenced, you've been released. Why is it that you are now applying for amnesty for all these incidents?
MR POTSANE: Well I want to put it this way now, when this idea of Truth and Reconciliation now first came into this country and was in actual fact adopted, I've always supported it. I supported it because I felt we cannot stand at one place pointing fingers at one another, looking at the part as something that is - should dominate our lives. One way or the other now we have to move on. I'm from an organisation which in this preamble on these documents that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, Black and White and when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and all it's purposes were actually now adopted and only to mention that people you know who were supposed to apply for amnesty, not because we were monsters, not because we were in a spirit, you know, of going to one another and extending a hand of friendship and say the past is the past and let us move on and build our country together as one people, enjoy the fruits of our labour together. I felt that was the ...(indistinct) that I will never let, you know, must pass me. I had to jump in and actually now also extend my hand of friendship to the victims or the people that suffered because of my actions in pursuit of democracy and I'm happy today that I'm here, sitting here explaining my actions so that you know, other people can understand you know, why I did those things, I never done them for personal gain or for vengeance but I think on the 2nd June this month there's a further confirmation that what I wanted, you know, the next government I wanted is not only sustained by me or those people who were fighting for liberation of peoples who were in the African National Congress only, the rest of the people of South Africa participated in voting is democracy for all and I'm happy now, that is the situation and it's time that we move forward.
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Berger, on page 15 of the original bundle there are two additional acts that are mentioned, you're not dealing with those at this hearing? Are those a subject of a different hearing?
MR BERGER: Ms Gcabashe, are you referring to the Shell House incident?
ADV GCABASHE: And Molopi, I'm assuming 1996 is a printing error?
MR BERGER: Yes. Molopi has already been the subject matter of another hearing in respect of which the applicant has already been granted amnesty and the Shell House hearing has been completed and we are still awaiting judgement in that one.
ADV GCABASHE: Now in terms of amnesty, you're not dealing with that now, you'll wait to do that at some other stage?
MR BERGER: I mean the amnesty hearing in respect of the Shell House incident has already been dealt with and we're waiting for the decision. Molope has already been decided.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booysen have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, only one.
Mr Potsane, in your evidence you testified that for the killing of Mr Lukhele you specifically obtained permission from the ANC. Now what was the difference between the killing of Mr Lukhele and the bombing in Silverton? Can you explain that, why didn't you get permission beforehand?
MR POTSANE: Could you put the question again?
MR BOOYSEN: Sure, I'll do so. You testified that you obtained prior to the killing of Mr Lukhele, that you obtained permission from your leadership, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR BOOYSEN: Now my question is what was the difference between the killing of Mr Lukhele and the planting of the bomb in Silverton, why didn't you get permission for the bombing in Silverton?
MR POTSANE: Well on that one I'll say we were a unit now and as a unit, politically trained and militarily trained, where inside the country to come and conduct our war of liberation and in that war there will be orders, there were orders that were given and including in the orders, on the order that we were given there was a general mandate which was given to the unit that is where you see appropriate that you come up with the decision politically and otherwise that the target is correct then it can take that target without having to consult back.
MR BOOYSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Booysen. Mr Rammutla?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMMUTLA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
I just want to find out from you, Mr Potsane, regarding the death of Mr Lukhele first. Were you sure who Mr Lukhele was when you arrived at his home or perhaps you made only your final observation whom he was after you have entered the house?
MR POTSANE: No, I'm not sure when I entered the house but my observation was made when I entered the house because as I've said, I came to the door, the only male person who opened the door, the male person who opened the door, I wasn't sure that it was Mr Lukhele but I already indicated to him that I've been sent to Mr Lukhele, he said come in. So when I got in there were only two ladies and he was the only male and to me that told me that he was indeed Mr Lukhele.
MR RAMMUTLA: Do you perhaps have any recollection how many shots did you fire directly to Mr Lukhele?
MR POTSANE: Thirty one.
MR RAMMUTLA: Okay, let's now move to 8.3 of your founding statement of Exhibit A. Are you with me on Exhibit A?
MR POTSANE: Okay, thank you.
MR RAMMUTLA: You said a specific authorisation of the ANC was sought to eliminate Mr Lukhele. Who in particular or perhaps which body within the ANC structures abroad authorised the killing?
MR POTSANE: Well the way it happened, it happened this way, at that stage it was sent to Botswana and Botswana said they will come back to us, that is inside in effect all I'm trying to say is that Botswana since it was our immediate commanders, they never took the decision, they referred the matter to Lusaka where upon Lusaka brought down the instructions, dealt with Botswana and Botswana conveyed the instructions back to us to proceed with the operation.
MR RAMMUTLA: So further if I ask you this, was because Mr Mabuza was an ANC sympathiser, was he in the know if it is within your knowledge that Mr Lukhele is one of the public enemies against ANC and you're about to eliminate him? I - you have got knowledge you can expantiate on that please?
MR POTSANE: No, no, that's far from consent.
MR RAMMUTLA: So Mr Potsane, are you prepared to perhaps shake hands with one of the victims, Mrs Lukhele, in this particular matter who is present in this hearing today.
MR POTSANE: I very welcome to do that.
MR RAMMUTLA: Can I perhaps - I'm not sure Mr Chairperson if I'll be going beyond my powers in that? Can I perhaps maybe make them shake hands while the witness is still just next to us unlike doing it after we've adjourned perhaps?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I don't know if it's just a matter of shaking hands, perhaps they want to discuss the matter. Do you normally find that this kind of encounter is much more deep than just shaking hands you know, people want to ask questions, people want to ask details that have been bothering them and so on and often we find that this sort of meeting is much more fruitful if it's better arranged so perhaps it is advisable that you, with the assistance of Ms Mtanga who has knowledge of this perhaps have a fuller encounter between the parties afterwards? I think that might be more meaningful to your client as well and to - that's not only Mr Potsane, perhaps all of the other applicants would like to say something to your client, you know? Perhaps we should leave it in the normal course of events, you know, where that is arranged outside of the formality of the hearing?
MR RAMMUTLA: I think I'll definitely Mr Chairperson choose the alternative you are giving to me, we will arrange that after and I further wish to say I've got no further questions to direct to Mr Potsane, thanks.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMMUTLA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Rammutla. Ms Mtanga, you've heard the request, perhaps you can deal with that? But in the meantime have you got any questions?
MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, have you got anything else? Re-examination?
MR BERGER: Nothing further thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Potsane you're excused.
MR POTSANE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger, we are likely to experience a bit of a delay with the Sesotho interpreter. I assume that you would have - was it Mr Masina?
MR BERGER: Mr Masina would be next if - are we not going to take the adjournment now?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes we will, I thought I'd just raise it and indicate to you. So Mr Masina, would he be the last witness you would be calling?
MR BERGER: Yes he would be .
CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter we will be at the mercy of the Sesotho interpreter whom we are told will be here around lunch time?
MR BERGER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Well, we'll take the tea adjournment for 15 minutes at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
