Amnesty Hearings

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, we call on the next amnesty applicant, Mr Eugene Fourie.

EUGENE FOURIE: (sworn states)

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... page 404, bundle 1B?

MR LAMEY: Yes, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: 404 ...(indistinct)

EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, you are also applying for amnesty with regard to your involvement in the Japie Maponya incident, which is being heard before this Panel, and in the bundle 1B we find your initial amnesty application on page 404, up to and including 411, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Very well. Then you have also submitted a supplementary amnesty application. At the stage when you completed your initial application, you did not have legal representation, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: That was in December 1996 and then after that you obtained legal representation and we find a supplementary amnesty application on page 412, up to and including 433, with regard to the Japie Maponya incident.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Therein you also state that you gave evidence as a State witness during the de Kock trial and you have also attached an extract of the notes or minutes of your evidence for the purpose of qualifying the nature and particulars of the incident. This you find on page 474 up to page 490.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You also mention that due to the extensive nature of the cross-examination, you were required only to provide a summary of the events for your amnesty application.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: It was also your intention, for the purposes of your application, that the cross-examination be read with it.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I just get a direction here from the Panel, should I lead also his evidence from the outset as I did with Mr Nortje, or could I just refer to certain aspects? I'm uncertain as to what extent he actually - the basis of his application is evidence also in the de Kock trial and ...

CHAIRPERSON: It's essentially up to you Mr Lamey, but I know that in many other hearings where we have an applicant who is testifying about the same events, the second witness is often a lot shorter because they confirm what is said in their applications and then just elaborate on certain points. So that is acceptable if you wish to do it that way, but however, it is up to you how you want to do it. You see of course when it gets to cross-examination there won't be any restrictions on the way that the evidence ...

MR LAMEY: Yes, understand, I just want to try and save time, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, I will then briefly refer you to certain aspects in-chief. At a stage you and Mr de Kock went to Krugersdorp, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And that was actually the beginning as it were, of the sequence of events that ensued.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Might I just ask you, at that stage, where were you before you went to Krugersdorp?

MR FOURIE: Mr de Kock and I - I was his driver that month, we were in Zeerust where we were visiting a team and Mr de Kock then told me that there had been a telephone call that we had to go to Krugersdorp because Col le Roux required assistance there with an incident.

MR LAMEY: Very well. At that stage, let us accept that this was September 1985, were you a fulltime member of Vlakplaas, or Unit C1, or with which unit were you?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson, I was with Unit C2, which was conducting research regarding terrorism and I was simply asked to travel with Mr de Kock that month.

MR LAMEY: Was that the unit which was under the command of Major Naude?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: So you actually worked under his command?

MR FOURIE: Yes, he was actually my chief.

MR LAMEY: Were you then deployed to Vlakplaas as it were, to assist there?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, what happened is that sometimes if people from C1 were on leave - I'd been stationed at C1 from 1982 to about June 1985, and then I was transferred to C2 and because I knew about the operations of C1 - because at that stage I'd served below Dirk Coetzee and Jannie Coetzee and Jack Cronje and then I left, and because I knew how C1 operated, if they had a staff problem at Vlakplaas, if people went on leave or if there weren't enough group leaders I was requested to assist for that month if we at C2 didn't have too much work.

MR LAMEY: Very well, you have touched upon that. Before Mr de Kock took over command of Vlakplaas, you had served there before?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: You then said that you went to Krugersdorp in order to assist at Krugersdorp, where Col le Roux was the Divisional Commander.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And did you depart directly from Zeerust for Krugersdorp?

MR FOURIE: Yes, after we had received the telephone call at Zeerust that morning, we drove directly to the Security Branch, which was seated at the Krugersdorp Police Station.

MR LAMEY: I don't know whether this question has been put to you specifically, but I will put it now. At that time you were fulfilling the function of driver for Mr de Kock?

MR FOURIE: Yes, for that month.

MR LAMEY: When you arrived in Krugersdorp - or let me divide the question into two, when you departed for Krugersdorp, did you know at that stage that there were already Vlakplaas members there? Or upon your departure from Zeerust to Krugersdorp, can you recall whether you knew at that stage that there were Vlakplaas members at Krugersdorp, or did you only determine this when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: No, when we arrived at Krugersdorp I saw the people there for the first time at the police station.

MR MALAN: Mr Fourie, the question is whether when you departed from Zeerust, when Mr de Kock said that you were going to Krugersdorp, did you already know that there were other Vlakplaas members there?

MR FOURIE: No, he simply said, or I think he said that Willie Nortje had phoned and that they were having problems at Krugersdorp and that we had to go and help Col le Roux with the problem. I didn't know specifically that he was already at Krugersdorp, but I suspected that Willie had telephoned from Krugersdorp.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether Mr de Kock had communicated to you after he had received the request from Krugersdorp, that he was dissatisfied about something with regard to Mr Nortje, the fact that Mr Nortje was at Krugersdorp and that he didn't know about it?

MR FOURIE: No, he didn't mention anything like that to me.

MR LAMEY: Very well. And when you arrived at Krugersdorp, I want to ask you to tell us very briefly what took place there. You have already said that we can refer to your further evidence, but I just want you to tell us briefly what took place.

MR FOURIE

"When we arrived at Krugersdorp, the Col told me that he was going up to Col le Roux's office to find out what the problem was. I waited downstairs with the vehicles. There were members from Vlakplaas who we found there in the parking area at the police station and I stood around there waiting with them.

It was approximately lunchtime when we arrived there and Col de Kock went up to Col le Roux's office and he later came back down with Captain Kleynhans and I think that Theuns Dunckley was also present, and then he spoke to the black members and Col de Kock and Captain Kleynhans and I then climbed into Col de Kock's vehicle and we went to the Krugersdorp central town area.

When we climbed into the vehicle, Col de Kock said that Col le Roux and the others were having problems, that there was a man who they wanted to pick up and that his brother was a terrorist and that they wanted to monitor his movements and that this man who we were supposed to pick up was the brother of the terrorist and that he would know the whereabouts of his brother who was the terrorist, the MK, Mainstay."

MR LAMEY: Was any mention made of who the terrorist was?

MR FOURIE: There was mention of it in the vehicle. I think that Mr Kleynhans said - I can recall the name Mainstay, Mainstay Maponya. Later I heard that his name was Orderele.

MR LAMEY: Did the name Mainstay, or Mainstay Maponya ring any bell for you at that stage, from within your own experience?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I knew MK Mainstay because he was in our terrorist photo album and it was my job to work with the terrorists' photo album during interrogation, so I knew him.

MR LAMEY: Was that when you were at C2?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: And then, what happened further?

MR FOURIE: Mr de Kock and Captain Kleynhans and I then took position in Krugersdorp in a street, which according to Mr Kleynhans - or let me put it like this, I beg your pardon, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Was Mr Kleynhans with you and Mr de Kock in the motor vehicle?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

"We were all in the vehicle and Mr de Kock told me in the vehicle that Col le Roux had said that there was a man whom they wanted to arrest and interrogate in order to obtain particulars about his brother and then Mr Kleynhans said that he was a security guard at the United Bank and that we would take up position near United Bank, in the street and then our black members would abduct the man as soon as he left work."

MR LAMEY: So you understood this as an abduction, not a normal legal arrest?

MR FOURIE: Because the word "abduction" was used, I understood that it would not be the usual legal police arrest.

MR LAMEY: And what happened next?

MR FOURIE

"While we sat in the vehicle, I heard over the radio that one of the black members said 'We've got him and we're going so long'. I imagine that he said 'We're going to the farm so long'. Then Mr de Kock, Captain Kleynhans and I drove back to the Security Branch at Krugersdorp and we dropped off Captain Kleynhans and then de Kock and I drove back to Vlakplaas alone."

MR LAMEY: And in the meantime you understood that Japie Maponya had also been taken to Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I assumed that he had been picked up and taken to Vlakplaas for interrogation.

MR LAMEY: You arrived at Vlakplaas, and what did you do then?

MR FOURIE

"When we arrived at Vlakplaas, we first stopped at the canteen and there we found out where the black members and the other members had gone with Maponya, where they were interrogating him, and we were told that they were at the braai area by the river and Mr de Kock went to the braai area by the river. I stayed at the canteen and I had one or two drinks and then Willie Nortje and I went down to the braai area in the bakkie, where the interrogation was taking place."

MR LAMEY: Did you then spend some time in the canteen after de Kock had left?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: But did you the go to the place where he was being interrogated?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Willie and I drove together in a vehicle to the braai area where the interrogation and the assault was taking place.

MR LAMEY: It had already begun when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it had. Japie Maponya was lying on the ground and I'm not entirely certain, but I think that a blanket had been thrown over him, questions were put to him and during the interrogation he was also assaulted, with a clenched, with the open hand, he was kicked as well.

MR LAMEY: And did you in any way participate actively in the interrogation, did you do anything?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR LAMEY: Were you a bystander, who simply watched what was happening?

MR FOURIE: I wasn't only a physical bystander to see how Japie Maponya was being assaulted. Because I was involved in terrorism research, I wanted to know whether there was any information about his brother, Mainstay. I was interested in what he was going to say about Mainstay because during our research we were always trying to keep track of the movements of terrorists.

MR LAMEY: So you also wanted to know what information could possibly emanate with regard to Mainstay?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Except for the fact that you can recall that he was kicked and beaten and slapped, can you recall anything else?

MR FOURIE: I can also recall that he was sprayed with a teargas canister.

MR LAMEY: And where was he sprayed?

MR FOURIE: In his face. I can recall that the cover was lifted and that he was sprayed on his face. I cannot recall whether it was the balaclava or whether it was the blanket.

MR LAMEY: So you say there was a cover which was lifted off his face?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall how long you spent on the scene perhaps where he was interrogated?

MR FOURIE: I suspect that it was somewhat in the vicinity of half an hour, it can't have been longer than half an hour. They were not obtaining any information from Japie, he was not prepared to talk. He did not provide any valuable information. Sometimes he answered yes or no, but basically he didn't say anything.

MR LAMEY: What happened next?

MR FOURIE

"I left the scene and it became clear that the people also started losing interest because he wasn't talking. Warrant Officer Theuns Dunckley and Captain Kleynhans also put questions, which were interpreted by some of the black members and I could see that they were also losing interest because they couldn't get any information out of Japie. I returned to the canteen where I had been, or where I stayed until the other members arrived there."

MR LAMEY: You mention in paragraph 6 of your statement, that you were under the impression at a stage that Krugersdorp Security Branch, after the assault on Japie, wanted nothing further to do with him because the matter could create embarrassment for them and furthermore, they could not obtain any information from him. Was that the impression that you had at that stage, or was this something that you realised later?

MR FOURIE: It was at that stage that I had the feeling, Japie refused to talk and because the Security Branch wouldn't pick up someone for nothing and interrogate and assault him for no reason. I believed there at the scene that Japie was keeping information about his brother, that he did indeed know the whereabouts of his brother, but that he was afraid to talk because then the presence of his brother could be made known and his brother would either be killed or arrested if he was being searched for.

MR LAMEY: Very well. You then returned to the canteen, and can you recall what ensued?

MR FOURIE

"All the other members arrived there at intervals. We had a few drinks and in the meantime, Captain Kleynhans and Dunckley departed. I suspect that they went back to Krugersdorp. We remained there. It was me and Col de Kock and Dawid van der Walt and Willie Nortje. We were all there.

The blacks who were outside received an instruction from Mr de Kock that they did not have to return the following day, that they could go about their business and so forth, but that they didn't have to come to the farm. Then whey they had departed, Col de Kock told me and Dawid an Willie that we had to return to the farm the following day."

MR LAMEY: At that stage did you know - and listen very carefully to the question, did you know or formulate any idea regarding what was going to happen to Japie?

MR FOURIE: I suspect at that stage, but I wasn't entirely certain, that Japie was going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you get this suspicion, Fourie, did you get this suspicion from the fact that he had been unsuccessfully interrogated, or did you get that suspicion from hearing the conversation around you, or from ...?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson, I suspected this because the blacks were told not to return. We would not have been able to interview him by ourselves because we couldn't speak his language.

MR LAMEY: So they were told not to return to Vlakplaas the next day. In other words, they were not supposed to be there?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Why couldn't you have drawn the inference that you were simply going to release him the following day?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, then the blacks could just as well have taken him back to his house. They knew Kagiso, we were not familiar with Kagiso.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you.

And then, did you report there the following morning?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, Col de Kock and Willie Nortje and I lived together in an apartment complex. Willie was my neighbour. He told me the following morning that he would be going to the farm so long and Col de Kock said that he was going to head office and that Dawid and I would only have to go to the farm that afternoon, they were first going to make arrangements.

MR LAMEY: And did you report the following day?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I reported the following afternoon.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Lamey.

You say that you were told that you and Dawid only had to arrive there that afternoon because they wanted to make arrangements, what arrangements were they going to make?

MR FOURIE: I assume that Mr de Kock was going to explain to Brig Schoon at head office what the circumstances were surrounding Japie Maponya and that Willie would go to the farm to see to Japie, to see whether he was still there or not, because he may have disappeared during the night.

MR MALAN: Why did you refer to this as making arrangements, why didn't you refer to it as taking decisions or obtaining orders?

MR FOURIE: It means the same thing.

MR MALAN: When you say that arrangements were going to be made, did you know that he was going to be killed, did you ever discuss this?

MR FOURIE: No, we didn't.

MR MALAN: Did you suspect this?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I had a reasonable suspicion that we were going to kill him because the group was confined to such a small number and because he went to head office, he was going to ask for authorisation to kill Japie.

MR LAMEY: And when did you report at Vlakplaas the following day?

MR FOURIE: The following afternoon late, it must have been dusk when I arrived at the farm.

MR LAMEY: And what happened next?

MR FOURIE: We stood around there until either Mr de Kock or Willie told me that we were going to Piet Retief.

MR LAMEY: And then what did you do?

MR FOURIE: We went to the vehicle and Japie Maponya was lying on the floor of the vehicle.

MR LAMEY: Was he already in the vehicle when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: When I arrived at the vehicle, Japie lay between the two seats. There was also a spade inside the vehicle as well as jerry cans with what I assume must have been petrol inside.

MR LAMEY: And how quickly thereafter did you depart?

MR FOURIE: Not long thereafter.

MR LAMEY: And can you recall, you said that Japie lay in the vehicle, where did he lay?

MR FOURIE: Between the front seat and the back seat and he was covered by a blanket.

MR LAMEY: Very well. And I accept that you then departed, where did you go?

MR FOURIE: We drove, Willie Nortje was the driver.

MR LAMEY: Where did Mr de Kock sit?

MR FOURIE: He sat in front on the left.

MR LAMEY: Where were you seated?

MR FOURIE: Dawid and I sat at the back with Japie.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, why didn't you drive, Mr Fourie, seeing that you were specifically assigned that month to be Mr de Kock's driver?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, this was a different operation. Mr de Kock's usual function during the month would be to visit the various groups that had been deployed in various areas, and determine how things were with them, whether they needed anything and so forth and I would drive him around on the visits, but this was a new incident which had led to an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Very well. And where did you go?

MR FOURIE

"We went to Piet Retief and when we arrived at Piet Retief, we stopped at Freek Pienaar's house. Now I'm not certain whether Willie climbed out and went to call Freek, or whether Freek, when we stopped there, came out to the vehicle himself, but he climbed into the vehicle and we drove away. He said to Willie that we should drive in the direction of Nersden."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you yourself get out of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, hadn't you been having a nice long drive now for three and a half hours? Why not get out and stretch your legs?

MR FOURIE: Because we were there to do some work, we were not playing games, we had to get back to Pretoria, we had to complete our task and I can't see why we should wake his wife if we were going to go into the house and visit for a while.

MR LAMEY: Very well. And did Mr Pienaar climb into the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And can you recall where he sat?

MR FOURIE: Mr Pienaar sat in the back seat and I climbed over and sat in the "diekkie".

MR LAMEY: What is the "diekkie"?

MR FOURIE: It was a station-wagon and that would have been the boot section of the station wagon.

MR LAMEY: So he sat next to Mr van der Walt?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: And where did you go?

MR FOURIE: We then drove to Nersden and when we arrived at the Nersden border post, Freek told Willie to turn right there and then we travelled on a gravel road and Willie set the lights on parking lights and we drove very slowly along the gravel road ...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: I beg your pardon, before we get to that, from Piet Retief, what direction did you take?

MR FOURIE: From Piet Retief we drove to Amsterdam and there we turned right onto the Nersden road. You get to a T-junction and there we turned right in the direction of the Nersden border post.

MR MALAN: In short, your evidence is the same as Mr Nortje's, with regard to the journey?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: Can I just ask you, was this the first time that you had seen Mr Pienaar at that stage, or did you know him prior to the incident?

MR FOURIE: I knew him very well because from 1982, when I arrived at C1, my area was the Swaziland border. I worked very regularly at the Swaziland border and when we went to Piet Retief and - Piet Retief Security Branch covered quite a large area of the Swaziland border, I would always contact him, he would arrange accommodation for us when we worked there and we respected him because he was a good worker.

MR LAMEY: Very well. I want to ask you whether you recall if there was any garden equipment or instruments which were picked up from Mr Pienaar's place, or whether he put any such items in the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No, there was nothing.

MR LAMEY: So you drove through to Nersden, via Amsterdam?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: And when you arrived at Nersden, what happened?

MR FOURIE

"At the Nersden border post Freek told us to turn into the gravel road just before the gate of the Nersden border post. He told us to turn onto this gravel road. Nortje set the lights on parking lights and we drove until we could no longer see the lights and then Freed said 'Stop here', and that is when we stopped."

MR LAMEY: And when you say that at a stage you no longer saw the border post lights, how far down that road did the lights shine?

MR FOURIE: Well the lights' physical position was just around the fence of the border post itself.

MR LAMEY: And you drove for some distance, and what happened next?

MR FOURIE

"I think we drove for approximately three kilometres and then Freed said 'Stop here' and all of us climbed out. Then Freek and Col de Kock walked ahead and Willie and Japie and I followed and Dawie was the last."

MR LAMEY: And then?

MR FOURIE: We climbed through the border fence.

MR LAMEY: How far was the fence from the place where you had stopped?

MR FOURIE: Approximately 20 metres, 20 to 30 metres.

MR LAMEY: And who climbed through the border fence?

MR FOURIE: All of us climbed through, but while we were walking towards the position where the murder took place, Dawid van der Walt said that he was turning around, that he was going to guard the vehicle. I didn't look behind to see if he was still behind me because he said he was going back to the vehicle to guard the vehicle.

MR LAMEY: And who continued from that point, when Dawid said that he was going back to the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: It was Freek and de Kock, then Willie, then Japie and then I. And I accepted that Dawid was no longer behind me because he said he was going to guard the vehicle.

MR LAMEY: And what happened further that you can recall?

MR FOURIE: When we stopped at a point, Willie told Japie to kneel.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

MR FOURIE

"And then Willie pushed him down and I saw Japie was on his one knee, but he was not kneeling on both knees and then I saw Willie took the uzzi and he hit him against the head. At that stage I assumed that Willie hit him because he did not want to kneel properly and he wanted to shoot him in the back of the head."

MR LAMEY: Yes?

MR FOURIE

"And then Japie was lying down there, Willie wanted to shoot him with the HMK, the uzzi ..."

...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: HMK is a hand machine carbine?

MR FOURIE: A uzzi, hand machine carbine.

"... and when Willie bent over to shoot Japie he said 'Oh, damm this thing does not want to fire' and Willie pulled back to see what was wrong with the firearm, Japie started trying to get to his feet ..."

...(intervention)

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, was he still cuffed at that stage?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: How as he cuffed?

MR FOURIE: He was cuffed with his hands behind his back.

MR LAMEY: Yes?

MR FOURIE

"... and he struggled to get to his feet because he could not use his hands. And my opinion or my viewpoint of Japie's movements at that stage was that it was natural - because Willie hit him very hard, that is was a natural survival, a natural urge to try to get to his feet."

MR LAMEY: Yes?

MR FOURIE

"And while he was trying to get to his feet, Col de Kock came around and hit him on the head with a spade."

MR LAMEY: Yes, and what happened further?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, I don't have clarity about this and this is the sequence of the events.

"When Willie hit Mr Maponya on the head, it was a loud blow and the dogs started barking on the Swaziland side and we were frightened because we did not know there were going to be people so close by, and I heard Willie taking the magazine out of the uzzi and I heard him cock his firearm, his pistol and pushed a round into the chamber. And after Mr de Kock had hit him, he remained flat and then Willie shot him with the pistol in the back of the head."

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of range, Mr Nortje?

MR FOURIE: Mr Fourie.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, what sort of range did he shoot from?

MR FOURIE: He bent over and I would say 6 inches, very close.

"And then I imagine that Mr de Kock once again hit him with the spade, but Mr de Kock delivered a few blows with the spade, but because it happened so quickly and everybody was nervous, right up to this day I cannot say whether Mr de Kock had delivered a few blows and he was shot and then hit him again, but the fact remains that Mr de Kock delivered a few blows with the sharp edge of the spade and Mr Nortje shot him. That is what I can recall."

MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, I surmise from what you say now, you cannot recall the specific sequence, you don't know whether, in that moment, whether the shot was first or whether the spade was first, but you recall that he was hit with the spade.

MR FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And with which part of the spade was he hit?

MR FOURIE: With the sharp edge of the spade.

MR LAMEY: And how quickly did everything happen, from the time that Willie's weapon did not want to fire?

MR FOURIE: It was within seconds, it was very quickly because the dogs barking gave us a fright and it sounded as if the dogs were moving closer to us.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall when the spade was used to hit Japie the first time, in what position was Japie Maponya at that stage?

MR FOURIE: He was attempting to rise from the ground when Mr de Kock hit him on the head and then he fell flat and he did not try to rise again. But what I can also recall is that after Willie had shot him, Japie made gurgling sounds in his throat and that is why I assume - and up to today I'm still not certain whether Mr de Kock, or I imagine that Mr de Kock hit him again with the spade until he was silent.

MR LAMEY: And what happened then?

MR FOURIE: When Japie as motionless we removed his trousers and we removed the handcuffs. We had to remove the handcuffs because I don't believe that we would have left it there. I personally did not remove them, but we would have removed them because we could not leave them there.

MR LAMEY: You say you removed his trousers, can you recall that?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I can recall we removed his trousers, but I cannot recall that he was wearing a shirt.

MR LAMEY: Could he have been wearing a shirt, or what is your recollection?

MR FOURIE: Well he may have been wearing a shirt in the vehicle, but because was covered with a blanket all the time I did not notice it. I know specifically when he was lying there, his body shone. I couldn't see a shirt and I cannot think that his shirt was removed there.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether at that stage - and I just want to ask you what you can remember whether there was some form of bandage or blindfold over his eyes?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall.

MR LAMEY: And he was lying there and you had removed his trousers, can you recall whether you removed his shoes?

MR FOURIE: I don't remember whether he was wearing shoes.

MR LAMEY: What did you do then? And who did it when I refer to "you".

MR FOURIE

"Willie and I picked Japie up, - it was not very far, from about here to that microphone, we picked him up and we lay him down at a place that Mr de Kock had cleared with the spade."

MR LAMEY: If you refer to from here to that microphone, do you refer to the microphone of Mr Flip Hattingh?

MR FOURIE: Yes, the microphone of Mr Flip Hattingh. It was not very far.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about a metre and a half, maximum two metres.

MR LAMEY: As it please you, Mr Chairman.

And what did you do then, Willie and you?

MR FOURIE

"Mr de Kock and Willie and myself - Mr de Kock had the spade and he helped to cover Mr Maponya's body with the things that were lying around there, leaves and soil and branches and Willie and I also used our hands to try and cover him. But while he was lying there it sounded as if there was breathing sounds coming from Japie and then we did not cover his whole head. Mr de Kock and Freek walked back and Willie and I waited for the last, until he was not making any more noises or anymore movements and then we covered his head and we dragged a branch with leaves on and we placed it on top of him and then we turned around and we walked."

As I say, Chairperson, it sounds long, but this took place very quickly, it was a matter of minutes, because of the dogs and you are not in your own country and everything.

MR LAMEY: Would you say that from the time that Willie had hit him over the head with a hand carbine you were tremendously tense and things took place very quickly?

MR FOURIE: Yes, from the time the dogs started barking.

MR LAMEY: Very well. When you and Willie had performed that task of covering him with the branches and leaves, what did you do then?

MR FOURIE

"We walked back to the vehicle and then we drove back to Freek Pienaar's house. We dropped Freek Pienaar and we drove back home."

MR LAMEY: Do you know what happened to the spade?

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot recall.

MR LAMEY: And did you go back to Pretoria?

MR FOURIE: Yes, we went back to Pretoria.

MR MALAN: Did Freek fetch beer in his house for you?

MR FOURIE: No, it was three or four in the morning, I don't think one would drink beer at that time of the morning.

MR LAMEY: You have already testified that you had previously had dealings with Pienaar in that vicinity, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: How long was that before this incident, the last time that you were there?

MR FOURIE: In June of '84 I left C1 and then I did not participate in an operation again in that area until the Japie Maponya incident.

MR LAMEY: Up to the last time when you worked in that area, were there any patrols, border patrols and so forth, and by whom was this done?

MR FOURIE: Yes, there was a TIN Unit, a Counter-insurgency Unit and they patrolled that part of the border. That was their function. There was an army base at Amsterdam, but it was for some battalion, but it was not the army's function to patrol the border at that stage. At that time they did not work there.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether that Counter-insurgency Unit in the police which did work there along the border and did patrols, do you know from your experience whether that work was co-ordinated with the Security Branch Commander at Piet Retief, Freek Pienaar?

MR FOURIE: Yes, they had weekly meetings because the primary function of the Security Branch was the combatting of terrorism and security matters, so if Freek had information and had expected action or infiltration from Swaziland, then he would inform them to sharpen their actions along the border. So there were regular meetings held by the Counter-insurgency Commander and Freek Pienaar as a Security Chief at Piet Retief regarding the security situation and the combatting of terrorism.

MR LAMEY: Could one expect - if I make the statement that the police who worked in that area and specifically Mr Freek Pienaar, would they have known Mr Freek Pienaar if they met him?

MR FOURIE: Definitely, it was his working area and everybody - the Counter-insurgency Unit was swopped on a two-monthly basis and when they arrived there Freek would be introduced as the Security Branch Commander.

MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, I would just like to refer you to your amnesty statement. Have you heard of any incident after the death of Japie Maponya, with regard to his brother?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson, thereafter I heard that he had blown himself up at the Sterland complex with a limpet-mine, which had a direct switch and which exploded immediately when he tried to set it.

MR LAMEY: I would like to refer back to page 429, where you deal with your political objective. I will read it to you and want to hear if you confirm it as such.

MR MALAN: Mr Lamey, I think he has already confirmed everything when it was put to him. I don't think you have to read it specifically as far as we are concerned.

MR LAMEY: I thank you.

We have dealt with that already, Mr Fourie, I will not repeat it, that you confirm what is written here with regard to your political objective, as you have set it out here?

MR FOURIE: Yes. I don't know whether I mentioned there that I am willing to indicate the murder scene to the family, but I am willing to do so.

MR LAMEY: Very well. Thank you, Mr Fourie, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hattingh, are you prepared - or Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, I've got no questions to the witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, when you were approached the first time for information with regard to the incident, and this was for purposes of the police investigation against Mr de Kock, how long was that after this incident had taken place?

MR FOURIE: The incident took place in I think '85.

MR HATTINGH: September '85, yes.

MR FOURIE: And before Mr de Kock's trial I was at Grobblershoop in the Northern Cape and I was approached to make a statement for purposes of the Court case.

MR HATTINGH: When was this?

MR FOURIE: I think the trial was in '95, I'm not sure, but it must have been '94 or '95 when they approached me. - Brig Ivor Human.

MR HATTINGH: And in the meantime, that is from the time of the incident, when the incident took place, to the time when you were approached for a statement, did you ever make a statement to anybody else with regard to this incident?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever try to recall the events of that evening or that day in your memory?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson, at that stage when the incident took place, I had absolutely no idea that there would be a Court case or amnesty hearings or anything like that. I tried to forget it.

MR HATTINGH: But you were aware that the Goldstone Commission made mention of the Maponya incident in their report.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And did you have knowledge of that shortly after the report was given to the State President?

MR FOURIE: I'm not sure with regard to the events of the Goldstone Commission, but one day all of us who were at Vlakplaas were called to Security Head Office and I went from Grobblershoop and I met all the people who were at C1 and Mr Hattingh and Mr Hugo and I think Mr Wagener, they were all there in a large office and there it was said to us that we must make statements with regard to events that took place. I don't know whether that is what Mr Hattingh has referred to.

MR HATTINGH: Let us just put it briefly. There you were introduced to myself and my junior and Mr Wagener, who was still my attorney then and it was said that these legal representatives would be made available to you if any action followed against you because of the Goldstone Commission's report.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then you would consult with us with regard to incidents that you were involved with.

MR FOURIE: If the Goldstone Commission approached us, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but did we also not tell you, Mr Fourie, that we would consult with all of you?

MR FOURIE: You took short notes from all of us.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, so we did consult with you, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So that consultation at that stage was that we did not know whether there would be a prosecution and what incidents and what charges this would entail, and the consultations that we had with you were to get personal background information from you.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And to inform you about your rights if you were approached by an investigative official of the Goldstone Commission, or by a policeman who would participate in the investigation.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Now up to these happenings ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Hattingh, just one quick point.

At that stage, were you still a policeman, a member of the Police Force?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson, I was declared medically unfit because of result of post-traumatic stress disorder.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went to live in Grobblershoop, in the North Cape?

MR FOURIE: From C1 I was transferred to Grobblershoop as the station commander of the police station there and I was a year in the service and then I retired, medically unfit.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you retire from the service, what year?

MR FOURIE: It was 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR HATTINGH: So Mr Fourie, for a time period of, let us say roughly 10 years, you had no reason to recall these events, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And now when the investigative official approached you in Grobblershoop, you for the first time had to cast back your mind to these incidents.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Were you at that stage able to recall the sequence of events and so forth?

MR FOURIE: I would have had to think about it a day or two before I could make a statement.

MR HATTINGH: Were you give the opportunity to think about it?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Were documents made available to you to help you refresh your memory?

MR FOURIE: Not that I know of.

MR HATTINGH: Was it told to you that other people had already made statements?

MR FOURIE: The evening when Brig Ivor Human was there, then I, as you had instructed me in Pretoria, I called you from a call-box in the town and said that Brig Ivor Human is here, what should I do now and then you told me Mr de Kock has talked, so it is my choice whether I want to make a statement or not and I must receive legal representation.

MR HATTINGH: I think your memory is a bit defective there, Mr Fourie, at that stage Mr de Kock had not spoken yet.

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Hattingh, you told me I must make a statement if I want or not, because Mr de Kock had already said some things.

MR HATTINGH: No, but let us not argue about that, what I probably told you and what I told to all the people when they called me as you had done, that it was your choice, you had to decide whether you wanted to make use of the indemnity which was offered to you and become a State witness and whether you chose to keep quiet, as it was your right.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I was advised to receive legal representation in Uppington, so he could explain Section 204 to me and I made a statement with him.

MR HATTINGH: Because you see, Mr Fourie, at that stage we had already consulted with the Attorney-General, Dr D'Oliveira and we reached an agreement by which we drew up a letter afterwards, where all our clients and our potential clients had to - the legal position had to be explained to them and it was told to them "When you are approached by an investigative official for a statement and he offers Section 204 indemnity to you, if you would be willing to make a statement then it would be your choice, you can make use of it, but you are not obliged to use it and if you choose to keep quiet, it was your right to keep quiet.

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, I never received such a document, you may have given it to people here in Pretoria, but the only thing I received from you was a list of people's names and their telephone numbers, legal representatives.

MR HATTINGH: No, I'm not saying you got the letter, we tried to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we're going to make a finding on what was said between Mr Fourie and his legal representatives. Let's not spend too much time on this aspect.

MR HATTINGH: I thank you, Mr Chairman. I will go onto something else, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, let us just get clarity, was any information given to you to assist you to refresh your memory with regard to the Maponya incident?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Hattingh, because none of the people who were involved there were present when Brig Ivor Human came to see me.

MR HATTINGH: And did you make a statement there in Grobblershoop?

MR FOURIE: No, in Uppington, before the attorney, Kobie Kotze.

MR HATTINGH: So you went to Uppington, where you consulted another attorney's services.

MR FOURIE: Yes, because I was in the Kimberley district and it was on the advice of the Kimberley Police.

MR HATTINGH: Was Brig Human present? Did he take the statement from you or was it just the attorney who drew up the statement?

MR FOURIE: No, it was Brig Human and another official, he said he was from the Fraud Division of Nylstroom and myself and attorney Kobie Kotze were present.

MR HATTINGH: Now I assume, Mr Fourie, when you made the statement you just did not tell a story, as you spoke they questioned you about the information which you had, not so?

MR FOURIE: Yes, to get clarity with the drawing up of the statement.

MR HATTINGH: And to try to get more information from you not so?

MR FOURIE: Yes, the attorney tried to draw a complete statement.

MR HATTINGH: And Brig Human also asked questions?

MR FOURIE: He could have.

MR HATTINGH: And during the course of this statement, was it not told to you that this man has already made a statement and he said - I am just saying this by means of an example, he does not say that you were there or you did this or that or anything else, do you follow?

MR FOURIE: No, he did not tell me, he said this statement would be Court orientated and it is my problem to testify in Court, I must not go on other people's words, I must draw up the statement as I recall it because otherwise I would not be able to testify in Court. It was a Court orientated statement.

MR HATTINGH: Did he take - did you give the statement there?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: And did you sign it and attest to it?

MR FOURIE: I don't know whether I did so the very same day, because I imagine it was written out and then they said they would type it because at a stage I did sign a statement.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall whether it was a hand-written or a typed statement?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall, Sir, but I know I did sign a document "na aanleiding van die verklaring wat ek by mnr Kotze afgelê het".

MR HATTINGH: You were in the attorney's office, it probably wasn't difficult to have it typed there and to have it signed there.

MR FOURIE: He probably had other word as well, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Anyway, is that the only statement you made with regard to this incident?

MR FOURIE: No, Sir.

MR HATTINGH: I speak of Maponya.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you make another statement with regard to the Maponya incident?

MR FOURIE: Yes, in my amnesty application, before Mr Lamey.

MR HATTINGH: No, I am not speaking of amnesty, but I mean for purposes of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's a written statement, not counting the oral evidence in the trial.

MR HATTINGH: Did you make any further written statement for purposes of the trial against Mr de Kock, with regard to Maponya?

MR FOURIE: From '85?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR FOURIE: No, I don't believe so.

MR HATTINGH: And did you consult with the State advocate before you gave evidence in Mr de Kock's trial?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall. I know Dr Trollie Pretorius came to visit me in Grobblershoop.

MR HATTINGH: Tell us about that, when was this?

MR FOURIE: I don't know whether it was before the Court case, or whether it was during my application for amnesty, I am not certain.

MR HATTINGH: I don't understand now, what was the purpose of his visit to you, he was one of the advocates in Mr de Kock's case not so?

MR FOURIE: No, I was led by Mr de Meillon and Mr Pretorius was also on the team of advocates. They had a team of four advocates there at some stage. But I know he came to see me about my amnesty application.

MR HATTINGH: Are you certain that is why he came to see you?

MR FOURIE: I suspect so, yes.

MR HATTINGH: What did he as a team of the Attorney-General's office have to do with your amnesty application?

MR FOURIE: He was there with his wife and his children and I think he was on his way past there to Ograbies, or to the Kalahari and he probably saw it as an opportunity while he was going past there, because I was very far from Pretoria, that I would give my application to him.

MR HATTINGH: Did he assist you with the drawing up of your application?

MR FOURIE: No, he did not have much time. He called me and said "Make a statement of the particulars for which you want to apply for amnesty and then I will collect it from you". If you want, I will have a look here to see.

MR HATTINGH: Please point this document out for us if it will assist you.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, it is in bundle 1B, page 404 -on page 406 at the bottom you will see that this statement is attested to by Dr J P Pretorius, the Deputy Attorney-General.

CHAIRPERSON: That's on the 1st of December 1996, at Grobblershoop?

MR FOURIE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And the handwriting in this document, is this your handwriting?

MR FOURIE: Yes, this is my own personal handwriting. In Annexure A ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Do you have an impersonal handwriting as well?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson. At page 407 is the statement, the statement I made before Mr Pretorius arrived there, that I gave to him as an explanation for my amnesty application.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR HATTINGH: So it does not deal only with Maponya.

MR FOURIE: It was a brief summary of incidents in which I was involved, for amnesty purposes.

MR HATTINGH: And when you gave evidence in Mr de Kock's case, how good was your memory with regard to the incidents that took place in 1985?

MR FOURIE: I could not recall everything in detail. For example, I cannot recall what the colour of the Chairperson's tie was on Friday, but I had an idea as to what happened at that stage and the reason why I was there.

MR HATTINGH: And today, is your memory any better or worse than it was in 1995?

MR FOURIE: I would say that when I had completed giving evidence in the Eugene de Kock trial, I felt that there was a great burden from my shoulders, I have spoken the truth and now I can continue with my life and I did not expect that there would be amnesty hearings and I tried to forget these things after I gave evidence and I had to recall everything when I applied for amnesty.

MR HATTINGH: So what are you saying, is your memory better or worse than it was when you gave evidence during the trial?

MR FOURIE: The fact is that I recall, I know what happened, the basic essence of what happened, but small things like left or right or yellow or blue, those are things I cannot specifically recall. I just know what happened, how Japie was killed and the line of events that took place.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. You were with Mr de Kock, you say in Zeerust.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Not Mafikeng?

MR FOURIE: Sir, I've been to Mafikeng once and that was with Koos Vermeulen, Capt Koos Vermeulen, we went to a casino and I did not go back there. I've just heard of Mafikeng, when Eugene Terre'blanche was there, but I've never been there again.

MR HATTINGH: So you are saying you were not in Mafikeng?

MR FOURIE: No, we were not.

MR HATTINGH: You've heard Mr de Kock's evidence of what you were doing there according to him.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, in 1985, Boputhatswana was a TBVC independent State, we had no right or jurisdiction there in the independent countries, we could not work there and I know that Bophuthatswana's Security Branch had their own askari unit. So I don't know why we would have gone there because we were not allowed to work there.

MR HATTINGH: Could you not work in co-operation with the Boputhatswana Police?

MR FOURIE: I did not do that, Sir.

MR HATTINGH: Was there a problem - if you were aware of people who were in their area and which would jeopardise the Republic's security and they were willing to be of assistance to you, would there be a problem?

MR FOURIE: It could have been, but it was an independent State. I cannot see what jurisdiction we had in Boputhatswana.

MR HATTINGH: But if they give you permission to come to Boputhatswana, would that be a problem?

MR FOURIE: It probably would not have been a problem, but I was not there with Mr de Kock.

MR HATTINGH: So let us speak of an independent State. There was almost no control at the borders of the independent States.

MR FOURIE: No, it was just pieces of land, they could not have border posts anywhere.

MR HATTINGH: Anybody could go in there and movements were not controlled.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but not anybody could work there.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. But where were you according to your version, before you went to Zeerust?

MR FOURIE: I just know that that month we visited three teams, it was a team in the Eastern Cape and I suspect a team in the Eastern Transvaal and then a team in Western Transvaal.

MR HATTINGH: So do you know when you went to Zeerust? Which date?

MR FOURIE: We were not - we did not spend much time in Zeerust before we went to Krugersdorp, I suspect it was a few days before the Krugersdorp incident.

MR HATTINGH: And did you stay there at Zeerust?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I cannot think about another place where we slept there, but they would have arranged accommodation for us.

MR HATTINGH: But you cannot recall where you spent the evening?

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot.

MR HATTINGH: Then you got a message from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hattingh.

That time, did you and Mr de Kock work together, while you were in Zeerust?

MR FOURIE: Sir, I was only his driver. He just visited all the groups that worked in the different areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been possible for him while you were there, to have gone with somebody else to Mafikeng?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it's possible.

MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: And you staying in Zeerust?

MR FOURIE: It's possible. I was basically a chauffeur.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Very well. You received the message from Mr de Kock that Mr Willie Nortje had called.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And it said that Col le Roux had a problem at Krugersdorp.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the message?

MR FOURIE: The message - I cannot recall if he said Willie called, but he said that there was a telephone call, Col le Roux has a problem at Krugersdorp and we have to assist them. That was the morning of the abduction and arrest of Japie Maponya.

MR HATTINGH: And before you received that message from Mr de Kock, you were not planning to leave Zeerust that day, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Not that I am aware of.

MR HATTINGH: So this was a change in your planning for the day?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did not know of that arrangement.

MR HATTINGH: And did you immediately depart for Krugersdorp?

MR FOURIE: Yes, we gathered out things and we went to Krugersdorp.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived in Krugersdorp you say there were already other people from Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: How many were there, can you give us an indication?

MR FOURIE: I cannot give you the exact amount of members, but I would estimate that the members from Vlakplaas who I saw at Krugersdorp that day, were approximately 10 members.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And Mr de Kock went up to the offices, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Mr de Kock told me he would see Col le Roux.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Mr Nortje there?

MR FOURIE: I did not see him in the parking area.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr Kleynhans?

MR FOURIE: When we arrived there?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: What about Mr van der Walt, did you see him there?

MR FOURIE: I've thought about this afterwards, but because Mr van der Walt is a quiet and introvert person and I do not know him well, I cannot think that I had indeed seen him that day at the parking area.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr de Kock comes back to you and what does he exactly say to you, what would you do then?

MR FOURIE: When Mr Kleynhans and I and Mr de Kock climbed into the vehicle, Col de Kock told me that Col le Roux said that there was a man, Maponya, whose brother was a terrorist from whom they wanted information because they believed he knew where his brother was and his brother was busy with operations in that area and that we must pick him up and abduct him and take him to Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: Might this be a convenient stage to take the luncheon adjournment, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll now adjourn for lunch until quarter to two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

EUGENE FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, before we continue with the events themselves, just a number of aspects in my notes, which Mr de Kock has brought to my attention during the adjournment. He tells me that during this time there was regular co-operation between the Vlakplaas members and members of Boputhatswana - let me just see where he has added this, the Boputhatswana Internal Intelligence Service, BIIS. Were you aware of that institution?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And that at that stage they had almost every month, a unit of Vlakplaas members who worked in that area. Are you aware of that?

MR FOURIE: No, I was stationed at C2, I wouldn't know.

MR HATTINGH: Would you dispute it if he said that that was the actual situation?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And that the person with whom they worked in Boputhatswana, was a Mr Esterhuizen and that he was connected to the BIIS.

MR FOURIE: I don't know him.

MR HATTINGH: And that there was an empty government house which was placed at their disposal, which was situated near the BIIS offices, where they would be accommodated if they were there.

MR FOURIE: I haven't heard anything about that.

MR HATTINGH: And that on that morning you departed from that house.

MR FOURIE: I don't know about that.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Just a few general aspects. Long before Mr de Kock, you began working at Vlakplaas.

MR FOURIE: That's correct, in 1982.

MR HATTINGH: Did you work under Mr Viktor?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Viktor had long since left.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Dirk Coetzee, was he then the commander?

MR FOURIE: Yes, when I arrived there he was the commander.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr Fourie, without going into too much detail, you would certainly be able to confirm that Vlakplaas was not only applied for the identification and tracing of terrorists and testimony against them once they had been arrested.

MR FOURIE: That was the primary purpose.

MR HATTINGH: But Vlakplaas was also an operational unit which was involved in operations?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: For example, the Griffiths Mxenge incident.

MR FOURIE: I wasn't there at that time.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but all of us know that that had been a Vlakplaas operation.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I have heard that.

MR HATTINGH: And so there were also other operations which took place during your time there.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So that Vlakplaas' existence and the presence of the so-called askaris there and the activities of the members of Vlakplaas, was something which if it became known to the broader public, was something which would create a considerable embarrassment for the Security Police?

MR FOURIE: Yes, because it was a secret cover operation.

MR HATTINGH: It was secret operation, especially at its beginning.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that is why steps were always taken to prevent that the public become aware of the existence of a farm such as Vlakplaas, where terrorists were handled.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you read the general document regarding Vlakplaas, which was submitted by Eugene de Kock, to the TRC? It is contained in a bundle here.

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Are you aware that there was not free access for members of the public and even other members of the SAP to the farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, the only member of the public that I'm aware of, who visited Vlakplaas at a stage, was the owner of the farm until the police purchased the farm.

MR HATTINGH: Yes. And after that even he was no longer allowed access to the place?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And there were guards who would ensure that persons would not obtain access to the farm.?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct, the gate was also locked.

MR HATTINGH: And precautions were taken insofar as it regarded the acquisition of supplies and so forth, the members would do this themselves and bring the supplied to the farm?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that was done to prevent that delivery vehicles enter the premises of the farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: When you went to C2, you say that you were involved - what exactly was C2's task?

MR FOURIE: We had a set which was as complete as we could have it, a set of person who had defected to neighbouring countries, who had obtained training there. We had about 5-6 000 photographs and we would confront a person who had been arrested with every photo, so that so doing we could determine the movements of the terrorists abroad as well as internally.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Let us return to this incident. There in Krugersdorp, a decision was taken to abduct Mr Maponya and to take him to Vlakplaas.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And that was then done?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you drove with Mr de Kock back to Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: Upon which you first had a few drinks in the canteen?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And I think in the criminal trial you said that you spent about 45 minutes there.

MR FOURIE: Yes, it wasn't an hour.

MR HATTINGH: And as you have just said, you had two or three drinks.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr Nortje was also there with you?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And he also had a few drinks with you?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you have no recollection that Mr de Kock had any drinks there with you?

MR FOURIE: No, he drove down to the river - some of the black members came to tell him that they were down by the river and he went there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hattingh.

Those two or three drinks that you had, how did you feel after having them? Did it affect you at all?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: And while the Chairperson has examined you about that, it wouldn't have been usual drink, you have referred to these drinks as police coffee and boere tots and so forth.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did explain that.

MR HATTINGH: Please explain to the Committee how it worked.

MR FOURIE: You'd take the bottle and if you pour you'd count one, two, three, four, five as you poured the liquor into the glass and then you would add your mix.

MR HATTINGH: And as the Judge van der Merwe also put it to you there - I cannot recall his precise words, but he said that you'd have to stand firm if you wanted to drink a drink like that.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: These were very stiff drinks.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you say that you weren't really affected by it.

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Then you went to the river, and where was Mr Maponya when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: When I arrived at the river, Mr Maponya lay on the ground.

MR HATTINGH: Outside the vehicle, on the grass?

MR FOURIE: Yes, outside the kombi, on the ground there.

MR HATTINGH: And was he blindfolded?

MR FOURIE: I can only recall that he had a blanket over his head, that his head was covered and I suspect that it was a blanket.

MR HATTINGH: Which was thrown over his head, so that his entire head was covered?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that was how I remember it because his head was covered.

MR HATTINGH: And while he was there with his head that was covered by a blanket, he was being interrogated?

MR FOURIE: Yes, correct.

MR HATTINGH: In other words, he couldn't see his interrogators?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And he would have to answer through the blanket?

MR FOURIE: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: And while he lay there with the blanket over him, he was being assaulted?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: You say that he was hit, kicked, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And who participated in this assault, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Well according to what I can recall, most of the black members who were interrogating him undertook most of the assault. And I can imagine, according to what I remember, that Mr de Kock also assaulted him - ag, not Mr de Kock, Mr Nortje and Mr Dunckley.

MR HATTINGH: Do you recall that Mr Nortje assaulted him?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I would imagine that, but I'm not certain about all the members who assaulted him.

MR HATTINGH: And what about Mr de Kock himself, did he also assault the man?

MR FOURIE: All that I can recall about Mr de Kock during the incident, is that he sprayed teargas on Japie's face.

MR HATTINGH: Why do you recall that it was him?

MR FOURIE: Because I can recall that he took the canister, lifted the blanket and sprayed in the direction of his face.

MR HATTINGH: And how far away from him were you at that stage?

MR FOURIE: Probably about five metres.

MR HATTINGH: And could you see him spraying the teargas onto the face of Mr Maponya?

MR FOURIE: No, he just lifted the blanket on the fact of Mr Maponya, and sprayed the teargas in that direction.

MR HATTINGH: Could you see Mr Maponya's face when the blanket was lifted and the teargas was sprayed?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So you cannot tell us whether apart from the blanket that was over his face, he was also blindfolded?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever observe that the blanket was removed from him which he was there at the scene?

MR FOURIE: At the scene of the assault?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot recall that.

MR HATTINGH: And after the assault, when he was taken to the house, was the blanket then removed?

MR FOURIE: Well I left the scene of the assault before they removed him and took him back to the house and I didn't see him again until the following day.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. So all the time that you saw him he had the blanket over his head?

MR FOURIE: I know that his head was covered and I think it was a blanket.

MR HATTINGH: And you never saw him inside a vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: All the time that you were there observing the assault at the river, you saw him lying on the ground?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you when you got there, see any signs of blood?

MR FOURIE: No, Sir. All that I can add is that most of the questions which were asked were asked by Messrs Dunckley and Kleynhans.

MR HATTINGH: Did you say during the criminal trial, that you saw Mr de Kock spraying teargas at him?

MR FOURIE: I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: On page 247 of bundle 3A, you gave evidence during the evidence-in-chief, about the spraying of teargas.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, Mr Hattingh, was it 227?

MR HATTINGH: 247, Mr Chairman.

At the very top of the page you are asked by Mr de Meillon:

"Can you tell us how long this assault lasted and what you saw?"

And your answer:

"I would say approximately a half an hour that I stood there."

"Did you see any other assault, with the exception of the kicking and the blows which were dealt with the hand?"

And your answer:

"There were stages when he wouldn't, when he just kept quiet, when he wouldn't speak or that. That is when he was sprayed with teargas."

"Did you see that?"

"Yes."

...(end of side B of tape)

MR HATTINGH

"Well the canister stood there. It was a black canister."

"On the ground?

"The canister, yes."

"The canister - yes, I think it was placed on the ground. If somebody sprayed it he would replace it on the ground and then somebody would just take the canister and just spray. That stuff would come out so quickly and then stop, but various members took the canister and sprayed."

"Where on his body?"

And your answer:

"In his face."

"It continued you say, for approximately half an hour."

"You were there for half an hour?"

And your answer:

"I was there for approximately half an hour."

And there you don't mention that Mr de Kock was one of the persons that sprayed.

MR FOURIE: I said various members.

MR HATTINGH: Did various members spray him?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And every time it was the same procedure, the blanket would be lifted and he would be sprayed?

MR FOURIE: Sometimes he was just sprayed at through the blanket.

MR HATTINGH: Who would that have been who simply sprayed through the blanket?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, I cannot recall the exact persons who performed every single deed there, but I do know that he was sprayed more than once.

MR HATTINGH: But the only one that you can recall was Mr de Kock?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I can recall that Mr de Kock sprayed him in the face. I'm not certain of my facts, but in the Supreme Court, you questioned me intensively and I think I may have said it here, I'm not certain.

MR HATTINGH: Well I myself am not certain, I'm going to consult my notes. This was the evidence that was given in Court. When we get to cross-examination, page 275 I'm informed, there you say or you are asked by me

"Can you say whether Kleynhans and Dunckley also participated in the assault?"

Your answer:

"I'm not certain about Kleynhans, but I think that Dunckley also dealt a few blows."

"And the accused?"

"I did not see him kick or hit him, but I would imagine that the accused sprayed him once in the face with teargas."

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Is that still your recollection, or is it just an imagination, or do you have a clear recollection thereof?

MR FOURIE: I clearly recall him spraying Maponya.

MR HATTINGH: So it is not your imagination?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So why did you say that you imagined that then?

MR FOURIE: I'm now certain of it?

MR HATTINGH: Why are you now certain of it if you weren't certain about it there?

MR FOURIE: Because I know that he performed an act and I can remember.

MR HATTINGH: But when you gave evidence during those proceedings you couldn't remember.

MR FOURIE: Because I couldn't remember exactly who participated.

MR HATTINGH: So what was it that refreshed your memory?

MR FOURIE: It was some time after the incident that I was cross-examined and I could remember.

MR HATTINGH: And you say that it was Mr de Kock.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You cannot remember one of the others?

MR FOURIE: One of the blacks did, but I cannot remember which one it was.

MR HATTINGH: I'm going to put it to you at a stage, that your evidence here before this Committee has been adjusted somewhat to that of Mr Nortje.

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, I was there, I am only saying what I can remember. I am here to tell the truth, this is the Truth Commission, it is not a Court of Appeal. - with respect.

MR HATTINGH: And if it was a Court of Appeal, would you then not be telling the truth?

MR FOURIE: With respect, I would still tell the truth. I am under oath.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. I will mention more such examples to you. Let us continue. Were you present when the assault of Mr Maponya had ceased?

MR FOURIE: No, I left before the assaults had stopped. I may draw the inference that they would not get anything for him, they would not reach anything and therefore I went back to the canteen.

MR HATTINGH: Did you walk alone?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall.

MR HATTINGH: But you drove there, did you walk back or did you drive back?

MR FOURIE: I drove back.

MR HATTINGH: Whose vehicle?

MR FOURIE: It must have been Willie's vehicle which I drove there.

MR HATTINGH: And Willie, did he go back with you?

MR FOURIE: I don't recall.

MR HATTINGH: So you know that you only went back with Willie's vehicle, but you don't know whether anybody was with you in the vehicle.

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So you went back to the canteen?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Where you had further drinks?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: When you arrived at the canteen, was Mr de Kock there or did you leave him at the river?

MR FOURIE: I think I left him at the river. He only arrived later at the canteen.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr Nortje, was he at the canteen when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: I cannot say. There were members, but I don't know who.

MR HATTINGH: Later you say Mr de Kock told the black members that they did not have to return the following day.

MR FOURIE: That's correct. And then Mr de Kock told me and Willie and Dawid that we must return the following day.

MR HATTINGH: So when he told you that, was it only the three of you who were there with him or were there any other white members there as well?

MR FOURIE: There may have been other white members, in the canteen, but when he told this to us it was not necessarily within the canteen, it might have been in the rondawel.

MR HATTINGH: Where did he say it, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: I'm not certain exactly at which point at the farm he told us, it was either outside the canteen or at the rondawel.

MR HATTINGH: Are you certain it was not inside the canteen?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And he told you that you should return the following day?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: You cannot recall whether there were any other white members who were in the canteen at that stage?

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot because at that stage it was our clubhouse and people came there and had a drink there and they would go home and they would come back and they would go home. I don't know who was there that evening. We all had free access to the canteen.

MR HATTINGH: But only for members, not so?

MR FOURIE: Yes, us Vlakplaas members.

MR HATTINGH: Yes. And the following day you received the message from Mr Nortje, which said to you that you must not arrive at the farm before the afternoon.

MR FOURIE: He was my neighbour and when he left he said I do not have to come with him, I must only come in the afternoon.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Mr van der Walt, where did he live?

MR FOURIE: With his parents.

MR HATTINGH: So he did not live in that block of flats with you?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Did you drive alone to Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr van der Walt there when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: I don't know whether he was there before me or after me, but at a stage all four of us were there.

MR HATTINGH: So when you arrived there - or let me ask you the question in this manner, when you Mr de Kock told you you have to come the following day, did he tell you why you must come back?

MR FOURIE: No, he did not.

MR HATTINGH: You did not ask?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Would you not as part of your normal tasks, have to come to work the following day? It was a weekday, was it not?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So you had to come back to the farm.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So it was not necessarily necessary for him to tell you that you must come because you would have come anyway?

MR FOURIE: It was not the normal working day in the sense that we have to report there every day and look at the vehicles and hand in claims. That were something going on, it was a different operation.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but you would have come to the farm the following day in any case?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: What about the other white members, did they come to the farm the following day?

MR FOURIE: No, they were still out in their areas. The groups who had been deployed to the different areas had not returned yet. They usually return on a Friday.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived - or let me put the question differently, when Mr Nortje told you you only have to get to the farm in the afternoon and he said he would do what, make arrangements?

MR FOURIE: Yes, he said he would go to the farm to make preparations and make arrangements.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ask him "Preparations or arrangements for what"?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have an idea?

MR FOURIE: I assumed that it had to be with regard to Japie. If he had to go and look after him, or further question him, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Why are you so hesitant to find out?

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, at that time I was not a permanent member of C1, this came down on me. I would have gone back to Durban the following week, so I did not pay much attention because it was not my work with C1.

MR HATTINGH: But you had instructions to go to the farm, that you would be involved.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So why do you not ask Willie, what are you going to do, what arrangements will you make, why is it such a big secret?

MR FOURIE: He must have received instructions from Mr de Kock.

MR HATTINGH: To do what?

MR FOURIE: To do whatever he was supposed to do.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I accept that.

MR FOURIE: He and Mr de Kock were trustees and Mr de Kock usually told Willie and Willie came and told us.

MR HATTINGH: I accept that, but why did you not ask Willie, what will we do this afternoon, why do we have to be there this afternoon? Specifically seen in the light of the fact that you were not a member of C1.

MR FOURIE: I did not deem it necessary.

MR HATTINGH: But out of curiosity, why do you have to arrive there the afternoon.

MR FOURIE: I just assumed - the previous evening Mr de Kock said, you come back to the farm tomorrow afternoon, so I just assumed that Mr de Kock and he made other arrangements and it was only necessary for me to arrive there the following afternoon. So that I did not have to be there the whole morning.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. At what time did you arrive at the farm? I think you said it was around dusk.

MR FOURIE: Yes, it started getting dark.

MR HATTINGH: And it was in September, can you give us a time more-or-less?

MR FOURIE: I don't know. Let's say 6 o'clock/7 o'clock, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived there, who was there of the members who left that evening?

MR FOURIE: I know Col de Kock and Willie were there, I don't know if Dawid was there.

MR HATTINGH: And where was Mr de Kock and Mr Nortje when you arrived there?

MR FOURIE: I think they were somewhere close to the canteen.

MR HATTINGH: So where did you go?

MR FOURIE: I went to the canteen.

MR HATTINGH: So you went straight to the canteen?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you find them there?

MR FOURIE: I don't know if I found them both there.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall if you found any of them there?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So you don't have a recollection as to who you found there and then indeed also where you found them?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: What is your following recollection about the events after you arrived at the farm?

MR FOURIE: After I arrived at the farm I just know that at some stage I arrived at the canteen and the 4X4 vehicle was parked outside the canteen's door.

MR HATTINGH: May I just interrupt you there. When you came out of the canteen you say the vehicle was parked there, was it not there when you went in?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall.

MR HATTINGH: And when you came out of the canteen, were there people who remained in the canteen?

MR FOURIE: I don't believe so.

MR HATTINGH: So you would have been there alone?

MR FOURIE: It is possible.

MR HATTINGH: Did you drink anything?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So when you came out the vehicle was parked there, so you did not hear the vehicle parking there?

MR FOURIE: Not as far as I can recall. I just know - in my memory I know when I came out of the canteen the 4X4 was parked there.

MR HATTINGH: But if you heard it stopping there and specifically because you were alone in the canteen, you would have gone out to say here are the people now, let me go and hear what we are going to do?

MR FOURIE: I think that is why I went out.

MR HATTINGH: So when you came out, was there anybody else in the vehicle that had stopped there?

MR FOURIE: I think Willie was in the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: And where was Mr de Kock?

MR FOURIE: I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: And what happened then?

MR FOURIE: Then Willie told me that we would go to Piet Retief.

MR HATTINGH: And did you ask him what you would go and do in Piet Retief?

MR FOURIE: He said we will go to Freek.

MR HATTINGH: And what would you do with Freek?

MR FOURIE: I did not ask.

MR HATTINGH: So you did not ask.

MR FOURIE: No. I saw that Japie was in the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: When did you see this?

MR FOURIE: When I came out of the canteen and I saw the vehicle and the door was open, Willie was loading something into the van.

MR HATTINGH: The back door?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The 4X4, does it have four passenger doors?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And which one was open?

MR FOURIE: I don't know. Left or right, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Don't you see this picture before your mind?

MR FOURIE: It may have been the left door because Japie when he was lying in the vehicle, he lay with his head to the right-hand side and his feet to the left-hand side of the vehicle. So it may have been the left-hand.

MR HATTINGH: Was he covered?

MR FOURIE: Yes, there was a blanket over him.

MR HATTINGH: Covering his whole body?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: How did you know it was him?

MR FOURIE: I assumed it was him.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And did you draw any other inferences when you say him lying there? Is that why you did not ask any questions?

MR FOURIE: Well there was already the spade in the vehicle and Willie was walking with his uzzi.

MR HATTINGH: Where was the spade, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: It was at the back in the "diekkie" and there was a jerry can or two jerry cans with petrol.

MR HATTINGH: I assume that the spade was flat on the floor of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: In the "diekkie", yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have to peep in to see that there was a spade?

MR FOURIE: Well I looked in and I saw Japie and I saw there in the "diekkie" there were two cans and I saw the spade flat on the "diekkie".

MR HATTINGH: How many containers were there?

MR FOURIE: I'm not sure.

MR HATTINGH: But you just said three.

MR FOURIE: It could have been two.

MR HATTINGH: Did you just say three?

MR FOURIE: I'm not sure.

MR HATTINGH: But I want to ask you what you said now.

MR FOURIE: I said two or three, but I am not sure.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the only equipment you saw there, just a spade?

MR FOURIE: Yes, just a spade.

MR HATTINGH: You heard that Mr Nortje said he's not sure if he saw a pickaxe.

MR FOURIE: I'm not sure if I saw a pickaxe.

MR HATTINGH: So when does Mr de Kock arrive at the scene?

MR FOURIE: I cannot say exactly because when Mr de Kock and Dawid arrived there we left. Where Mr de Kock was, I don't know, where Dawid was, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Did you not see Dawid arriving there?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And also not where Mr de Kock came from?

MR FOURIE: No, the farm is big and there are several buildings.

MR HATTINGH: But you are standing at the vehicle when they come towards you, you see from which direction they come.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but I don't know what they were exactly doing at the farm, he may have gone to relieve himself somewhere, or he may have spoken to the guards, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Were there any guards there?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Where were the guards?

MR FOURIE: Matthews was outside the house on the stoep.

MR HATTINGH: And was he the only one that was there?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall, but there would have been guards at the gates.

MR HATTINGH: So you did not see how Mr Maponya was loaded into the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: You also did not see who helped him in?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And also not who loaded the petrol cans and the spade into the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So now you climb into the vehicle and you leave?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you are told that you would go to Piet Retief to see Freek?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived at Piet Retief, did Mr Pienaar himself come out of the house, or somebody go and call him?

MR FOURIE: What I can recall is that - I imagined when we stopped in front of his house - he did not have a wall or a fence, he had a house with a veranda before you go into the front door, I first imagined that we stopped and Willie climbed out and he went and called Freek, but now I have thought properly about this and I imagine that Freek was waiting for us and he walked out and he came to us and he climbed into the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: You see once again it is one of the examples which I want to refer you to, where you are adjusting your version to fit in with Mr Nortje's.

MR FOURIE: I don't know how you can say that.

MR HATTINGH: Did you not during the trial, say that you had a recollection that Willie went and called Freek?

MR FOURIE: That is just what I said now.

MR HATTINGH: But now you are thinking back and now you recall something else.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but Freek was waiting for us and it may be that when we stopped, because it was late at night, that he had come out himself. He heard the vehicle and the lights shining.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Fourie, you heard what I as well as the Chairperson had told Mr Nortje every time when he mentioned the words "could have" or "should have", or used any of these uncertain terms. If you cannot recall, you must say so. What do you recall happened when you stopped there, did Mr Nortje climb out and call Freek?

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, I can recall that Freek climbed into the vehicle. I cannot recall whether Willie called him, or whether he came out of the house himself.

MR HATTINGH: So where do you come about with these things that you said during the trial, that you imagined that Willie went and called him?

MR FOURIE: Willie was like a small dog after Col de Kock and if Col de Kock told him something he would do it and I would just have imagined that because they sat next to each other, Col de Kock would have told him to go and call Freek.

MR HATTINGH: Is that what he said?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: So you think that that is what he would have done and therefore you imagine that he did climb out and go and call him?

MR FOURIE: I can't say.

CHAIRPERSON: It's no good, Mr Fourie, imagining what must or should have happened.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I mean, there's any amount of possibilities.

MR FOURIE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If you start doing that then you may as well imagine that his wife was waiting and went to call him, or something else, or that you bumped into him before you got to the house.

MR FOURIE: The only thing I can remember, Mr Chairman, is that Freek got into the car.

MR HATTINGH: So if you say now you have thought about it properly and your recollection is now as you have said, that Freek waited for you there when you arrived there.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Now what is the position?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall. What I recall was that he climbed into the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: And that he just came to the vehicle and climbed in?

MR FOURIE: I remember that he climbed into the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mr de Kock climb out of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Not any of you from what you can recall now, climbed out of the vehicle, you cannot even recall whether Mr Nortje climbed out of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: I do not want to speculate, all that I can recall is that Mr Pienaar climbed into the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: You see once again in your evidence when you spoke of this, you said

"When we stopped at Freek at approximately 11 o'clock, he was waiting for us."

Excuse me, I apologise, I am reading from my notes of Mr Nortje, Mr Nortje's evidence. It's my mistake, I apologise. I'd like to arrive at my current notes.

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, if I wanted to change my story to fit in with Willie's, I would have had the opportunity and then I could also have said that Col de Kock went and called him and they were standing outside and talking, but I cannot recall that. I only want to say what I can recall.

MR HATTINGH: But you see the piece that I read to you was what Willie said, when you stopped there, Freek was waiting for you.

MR FOURIE: And then Col de Kock climbed out and went and spoke to him outside the car.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, he was not even sure about that, he says he could recall something like that, but he was not certain. Very well, I have dealt with that aspect now. You did not climb out of the vehicle at all?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR HATTINGH: Not even to change places in the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR HATTINGH: Did you climb over the backrest to get to the back seat?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it was a large vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: And where did Mr Pienaar climb in?

MR FOURIE: He climbed in on the left at the back.

MR HATTINGH: So what do you say of Mr Nortje's evidence that he climbed in in front?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall it.

MR HATTINGH: That you would have recalled if it happened so.

MR FOURIE: I recall that he climbed in on the left at the back and that is why I went and sat in the "diekkie".

MR HATTINGH: And you recall that it was you who went and sat in the "diekkie"?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: What was said to Mr Pienaar when he climbed into the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: When Mr Pienaar climbed in the vehicle he said "Let's go" and he Willie to drive in the direction of Nersden.

MR HATTINGH: Is that the only thing he said?

MR FOURIE: That's when we left there, he told Willie "Drive in the direction of Nersden".

MR HATTINGH: Was there a discussion between Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock as to what you would do?

MR FOURIE: For the 70 kilometres we did not keep quiet, we did discuss things in the vehicle and I could not hear everything because I was seated right in the back, but what I can recall is there was a discussion about us going to Nersden and that Freek would find a safe place where we could go with the man.

MR HATTINGH: With reference to Mr Maponya?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: So Mr Maponya was lying there and he hears how you were planning to get rid of him?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: What do you say of Mr Nortje's version that Mr Pienaar had to climb in in front so that Mr de Kock could speak to him softly and so that Mr Maponya could not hear what was being said?

MR FOURIE: I don't know about that, that is his evidence.

MR HATTINGH: Both of you can't be correct, one of you have to be wrong.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you recall at the trial that you sat in the back of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: I did not go through all of my things because I've already gone through all of this in Court, but I may have said that Dawid or I sat at that back, but I have just thought about it, that I am much shorter than Dawid and I would have sat in the back.

MR HATTINGH: Are you drawing an inference?

MR FOURIE: I can recall now that I sat at the back.

MR HATTINGH: So now you remember that you sat at the back. So you say, during your evidence at the trial you did not say so, but did you not sit here and read in the course of last week the evidence which you gave there?

MR FOURIE: No, I was listening to what was being said there.

MR HATTINGH: You at some stage sat here and read something and I saw you reading one of the records which looks like the one that I have before me, 3A.

MR FOURIE: Then you have good eyes to see what I am reading there.

MR HATTINGH: Did you sit and read anything there?

MR FOURIE: At some stage last week I sat here and read a bundle of new work that I might possibly get.

MR HATTINGH: So you are telling the Committee that you never went through your evidence that you gave at the trial?

MR FOURIE: Not the whole thing, it is too much. I was extensively cross-examined, I did not have to read it, I know what the truth is. I don't have to change my story because I can only speak about what I saw and what I did and why I was, what part I played there.

MR HATTINGH: So why did you read a part of it?

MR FOURIE: My legal representative was advised that I must go through my notes, but I did not even deem it necessary. I am here, I am not in Court, I sit here, I can hear the whole story, why do I have to read through all of it?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but you cannot hear what you said during the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said he didn't read it, Mr Hattingh. So ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: I know what I said in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he didn't read it all, he said he read some of it.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'll move onto something else.

Very well. In the trial - if I can just find my notes, if I recall correctly you said that one of you sat at the back.

MR FOURIE: I have just admitted to that.

MR HATTINGH: And now you say that you can recall quite clearly that it was you.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Why couldn't you recall that during the criminal trial?

MR FOURIE: It's human to forget.

MR HATTINGH: So what reminded you that it was you?

MR FOURIE: Because after the Court proceedings I tried to figure out exactly where I had been seated in the vehicle and then I remembered that I climbed over the seat because Dawid is about six feet tall and that is why I decided that I would climb over the seat and sit in the "diekkie" because I'm shorter than what he is.

MR HATTINGH: And that is how you drove all the way with Mr Pienaar, who was seated in the back of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And not in front between Mr de Kock and Mr Nortje?

MR FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, at that time, what was your rank?

MR FOURIE: I was a Sergeant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant.

MR HATTINGH: And on the way there you spoke about Mr Maponya and what you were going to do to him?

MR FOURIE: We didn't specifically state that we were going to kill him, but we said that we were going to a place near Nersden where we were going to get rid of him.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived there at Nersden, you say that Mr Pienaar said "Turn right" and then you drove until you could no longer see the lights?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: The border post lights.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then he said "Stop here".

MR FOURIE: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then you all climbed out.

MR FOURIE: Correct.

MR HATTINGH: All of you climbed through the fence.

MR FOURIE: Yes, everybody climbed through the fence.

MR HATTINGH: And you walked to the place where Mr Maponya would be killed.

MR FOURIE: Well Col de Kock and Freek walked in front, followed by Willie and Japie and then me and Dawid van der Walt climbed through the fence behind me. At a stage, while we were on our way to the scene of the murder, or where the grave was, he told me that he was going to turn around and guard the vehicle. That's what he told me. So I don't know if Dawid walked up to the point of the scene of the murder.

MR HATTINGH: Were there any questions about that during the criminal trial? The stage when you arrived at the scene and it was asked

"Who was there"?

And you said:

"Everybody, including Mr van der Walt."

And that when he arrived there, it was only at that point that he said he was going back to the vehicle.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but I recall specifically that Dawid was not there when the events took place.

MR HATTINGH: That's not what it's about, the fact is that he went up to that point where the scene of the murder was.

MR FOURIE: I recall with certainty that he was not present during the events with the murder of Japie Maponya.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived there at the scene you said that Willie wanted Mr Maponya to fall on his knees?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did he tell him to fall on his knees or did he press him down?

MR FOURIE: As I can recall, Willie told him "Get on your knees" and that is when Willie forced him down. And he wasn't standing they way Willie wanted him to, his one knee was on the ground and his other knee was elevated.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever see him sit on his haunches?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Would you have seen it if he had been sitting on his haunches?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I would have.

MR HATTINGH: Page 248 of 3A. This is part of the evidence-in-chief, it is just before the beginning of page 4847, Mr de Meillon says to you

"Continue with your evidence. All of you went through the border fence ..."

And you say:

"All of us went through the border fence and then we walked about 50 to 100 metres into the plantation. There were branches and leaves on the ground. We walked into an area among trees and then Willie - I cannot recall with certainty if it was Willie."

And then the Court asks you to speak up and you say:

"I wasn't certain if it was Willie or the accused who said that he should get on his knees."

MR FOURIE: But I know remember that it was Willie.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, you remember that better now.

MR FOURIE: Yes, because Willie held him, he was the closest to him, Willie had to shoot him.

MR HATTINGH: It sounds as if you're drawing inferences and that you're not actually relying on your genuine recollection.

MR FOURIE: I have a recollection of these events.

MR HATTINGH: When it happened that Mr Maponya stood half-and-half on his knees, how far away was Mr de Kock from you?

MR FOURIE: From here to the microphone.

MR HATTINGH: Approximately a meter and a half?

MR FOURIE: Yes, a meter and a half to two metres. He and Mr Pienaar stood on that side and Willie and Japie Maponya and I stood on this side.

MR HATTINGH: And according to Mr Nortje's evidence, he says that his back was turned somewhat to Mr de Kock at that stage.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: He stated that he stood forward, while de Kock and Pienaar stood towards the back.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but what he said more forward and Mr de Kock and Pienaar stood towards the back.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but he said was that he stood with his back turned to de Kock.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And Maponya stood in front of him.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So that Mr Nortje was placed between Mr de Kock and Mr Maponya.

MR FOURIE: That's possible.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I recall the evidence more to be at an angle to the back, in Mr Nortje's evidence, not sort of directly behind him, but he indicated ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At a bit of an angle, yes. But still, you wouldn't dispute that they may have been - whatever the angle was, that between Mr de Kock and Maponya was Mr Nortje.

MR FOURIE: Yes, Sir.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And where was Mr Pienaar at that stage?

MR FOURIE: Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock stood there, Japie stood here, Willie stood here and I stood here.

MR HATTINGH: And when Mr Nortje forced him onto his one knew, what happened then?

MR FOURIE: Then Willie hit him with the uzzi against his head.

MR HATTINGH: You know I asked you during the criminal trial and I will ask you again, you were in a plantation, we've heard that there were misty clouds, that it was nighttime, how did you see all of this in that dark bush?

MR FOURIE: You could make out silhouettes.

MR HATTINGH: Silhouettes?

MR FOURIE: Yes. You couldn't observe things clearly in detail, but you could observe silhouettes and I know an uzzi, I knew the narrow side of the barrel and the broader side at the back.

MR HATTINGH: But could you see this silhouetted against the light?

MR FOURIE: Willie took the gun and hit him. He held the gun with both hands and struck him from over his shoulder.

MR HATTINGH: And where did he hit him?

MR FOURIE: On his head.

MR HATTINGH: On which side?

MR FOURIE: It must have been on his right-hand side.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr Maponya looking at him, or was his back turned to him?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Maponya was standing forward.

MR HATTINGH: So he hit him on the right and he collapsed?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: What was the next thing that happened?

MR FOURIE: When Japie fell, when Willie hit him, he fell down flat on his stomach like this.

MR HATTINGH: You are indicating with his head on his one arm.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Somewhat askew with the left side of his head on his left shoulder or upper arm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, he didn't fall down flat on his face, he lay on his stomach somewhat to the side.

MR HATTINGH: But I thought that his hands were cuffed behind his back.

MR FOURIE: Yes, they were.

MR HATTINGH: So how did he manage to fall down with his left arm stretched out in front of him?

MR FOURIE: I have been mistaken, I'm sorry.

MR HATTINGH: That's why I've put it to you, Mr Fourie, that under those circumstances it was impossible for you to observe what was going on.

MR FOURIE: He lay somewhat to his side.

MR HATTINGH: But his arms were supposed to be behind his back.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Could you see this?

MR FOURIE: I would have seen the cuffs shining in the darkness.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. What was Mr de Kock doing just before Mr Nortje hit Mr Maponya with the weapon?

MR FOURIE: Mr de Kock and Freek stood over there and I couldn't really make out, but I heard him scratching around with the spade.

MR HATTINGH: So he had the spade with him and he was working with it?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's correct. At stage the scratching noises stopped.

MR HATTINGH: And now Mr Maponya lay as a result of this hard blow that he had received, what happened next?

MR FOURIE: Then he tried to get back on his feet. He was just trying to get up, he wasn't attempting to run away.

MR HATTINGH: Didn't Mr Nortje immediately after he had hit him, turn the gun around and attempt to shoot him?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Willie wanted to shoot him when he said: "Oh, bugger, this thing doesn't want to shoot".

MR HATTINGH: But I find that remark rather strange as well, because it creates the impression in my mind that when he pulled the weapon the firearm didn't want to go off.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But he said that he still had to put a round into the chamber and when he wanted to do that, he couldn't succeed in it.

MR FOURIE: All I know is that Willie said: "Oh, bugger, the gun won't shoot".

MR HATTINGH: That is when he tried to cock the weapon?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: That is when you pull the cocking mechanism back and open up the chamber for the magazines.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So he couldn't say "This thing doesn't want to shoot", he said "I can't load it".

MR FOURIE: Well those are the words I heard "Oh, bugger, it won't shoot" and that is when he tried to repair it.

MR HATTINGH: And that's when Mr Maponya started to get up?

MR FOURIE: That is when Mr Maponya started getting up and got onto his knees.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see that Mr Nortje was trying to fix the weapon?

MR FOURIE: I simply heard him, I heard him working with the weapon.

MR HATTINGH: How far away from you was he?

MR FOURIE: We were standing next to each other.

MR HATTINGH: So you couldn't see what he was doing because it was too dark?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But I thought that he had a torch which he had used to create light for himself.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but at that stage I was focusing my attention on Japie.

MR HATTINGH: But you were right next to him, you were right in front of him.

MR FOURIE: I stood back - Nortje stood back and we struggled with the weapon.

MR HATTINGH: No, but he ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I just want to make this clear. In my recollection I have it very clearly in my mind that I saw how Japie's head had been slashed open and how the brains were coming out and I could never remember why I remembered it so clearly because it had an impact on me because I'd never before seen something like that. But when Willie gave evidence last week that he had used the torch, I could remember that in the fine light which shone apart from the complete darkness, I must have seen the white slash in the skull. That is all that could have happened.

MR HATTINGH: But Mr Fourie, are you speculating or is it your recollection that in the light of the torch you saw the brains coming out of the skull?

MR FOURIE: The reason why I can clearly recall the white on the head and the reason why I have always wondered why I saw it so clearly, must be because some of the light from the torch must have shone over Japie.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but at that stage he hadn't even been struck with the spade.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but that's what I'm trying to say, that's when Japie came up and Willie was struggling with the gun and then Mr de Kock hit him with the spade.

MR HATTINGH: So you now have a recollection that he did indeed have a torch which he was using?

MR FOURIE: Yes, because he stood there struggling with the weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was that the first execution that you had attended?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Sir.

MR HATTINGH: On page 290 of the criminal proceedings record I ask you

"All these things took place without artificial light, matches which were lit, cigarette lighters which were used, or torches which were used?"

And your answer:

"Not one of us stood there smoking, we did not have a torch, everything happened like that."

MR FOURIE: That is correct, I did give evidence to that effect, but last week when I heard Willie's story I remembered that Willie had a torch in his bag and that with the torch he tried to see what was going on with the uzzi at the scene, because he was supposed to shoot Japie with the uzzi.

MR HATTINGH: Can you understand why I'm saying that you keep on adjusting your evidence before the Committee, to suit Willie's evidence? Because now you also remember the torch that Willie had, while during the criminal proceedings you said that not one of you had a torch there.

MR FOURIE: That is how I recalled it at that stage.

MR HATTINGH: So are you saying that Mr Nortje had a torch?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And that you saw it?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see him hold it in his hands, or did he have it in his mouth?

MR FOURIE: No, he had it in his mouth and he was trying to see what was going on with the cocking mechanism.

MR HATTINGH: And that he did during the time when Mr Maponya was trying to get up?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And now Mr de Kock hit him with the spade?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Japie was trying to get onto his knees as if it was a natural urge to survive, for him to get up and then Mr de Kock struck him with the sharp side of the spade and he fell down.

MR HATTINGH: You will recall that Mr de Kock said that Mr de Kock had to move past Mr Nortje in order to hit Mr Maponya with the spade.

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall that.

MR HATTINGH: Well did it take place like that?

MR FOURIE: Mr de Kock came from the left, Japie collapsed here and Willie stood here and he was trying to fix the gun and that is when Mr de Kock ran in with the spade and struck Japie on the head and Japie collapsed.

MR HATTINGH: So Japie had not even taken a step, he was trying to get up when he was struck with the spade?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Nortje's evidence was that he may have taken to two to three steps at the most before he was struck with the spade.

MR FOURIE: That is his evidence, I saw Japie trying to get up.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr de Kock gave evidence that Mr Maponya had taken quite a number of steps, I cannot recall exactly how many.

MR FOURIE: He said 10 paces.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, before he caught up with him and struck him with the spade.

MR FOURIE: Yes. But Mr Chairperson, if I could just explain to you, Mr Maponya at that stage had spent seven hours in the back of the vehicle, he was stiff, he was still stiff from the assault and we were four persons standing there around him, how he could even have attempted - he was also half conscious because he had been hit with a firearm, how he could have ran away from us into the dark in a place that he didn't know, just doesn't make any sense to me.

MR HATTINGH: Have you ever heard of an anxious cat that takes an anxious leap?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Well if your life is at risk ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: That is why I say he ...

...(end of side A of tape)

MR HATTINGH: Have you always had the recollection that Mr de Kock, during this process when he was trying to get up, struck him with the spade?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is why he collapsed and that is when he lay there. Willie then came up and shot him in the back of his head while he lay there. After he had removed the round from the magazine of the uzzi and placed it in the chamber of his pistol, that is when Willie came over, bent over and shot him with the pistol.

MR HATTINGH: What did Willie do with the uzzi while he placed the round in his pistol?

MR FOURIE: I don't know whether he had it under his arm or whether he placed it on the ground.

MR HATTINGH: Because he probably had to use both hands in order to place the round into the pistol?

MR FOURIE: Yes, so I don't know whether he kept the gun under his arm or whether he placed it on the ground.

MR HATTINGH: Just a moment please, Chairperson.

During the criminal trial, on page 249, you explained the events as follows, approximately four lines from the top you are asked by Mr de Meillon:

"Where was Dawid van der Walt at that stage?"

That is somewhat earlier, when Maponya was on his knees. Perhaps I should read everything to you. I have read this piece to you at the bottom of page 248, where the Court asks you to speak up and you said:

"I wasn't certain whether it was Willie or the accused who said that he should stand on his knees."

Then Mr de Meillon says:

"When all of you were still together?"

And your answer:

"All of us were still together.

COURT: Who had to get on his knees?

And your answer:

"Japie Maponya."

MR DE MEILLON: Where was Dawid van der Walt at that stage?"

So it's clear that we are speaking of the stage when Mr Maponya had to stand on his knees. Your answer:

"David was still there, but at a stage he turned round and went back to the vehicle. He said he was going to guard the vehicle."

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So when Mr Maponya was on his knees, Mr van der Walt was still there.

MR FOURIE: But I didn't see him, I simply assumed that because he had been the one walking behind, he would also be there, but at a stage he said he was turning around and going back to guard the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Then you explain the events further. I will read it to you so that we can place this into perspective.

"Then Dawid turned around again and when the deceased did not want to stand on his knees, Willie took the HMC and hit him here against the head with the gun."

You indicate the right temple. Then the Court interrupts:

"You began to make a movement by placing your two hands against each other with a movement with the arms upward, but please explain to us what you are doing now."

"It was Willie Nortje."

You say.

"But you wanted to demonstrate something."

Your answer:

"Yes, it is a hand machine carbine and it had a silencer in the front, so he held it on the barrel. He wanted to him so that he would fall down and do what he had to do and then when Japie Maponya fell, Willie wanted to shoot him with the firearm, but it didn't want to fire."

And someone asks you to stop there, it would appear to be the Court. Mr de Meillon continues:

"The weapon wouldn't fire?"

"When the weapon wouldn't fire, Willie took the magazine out of the weapon, he took a round out of it, he took his pistol out from his side and when he had the chamber open he took the round that he had in there and placed it in the chamber of his own pistol, Willie Nortje, and then Willie fired a shot to his head."

And you are asked:

"At this stage, was the deceased lying down?"

And you said:

"Yes, but with the blow from the weapon against the head and the shot that went off, a whole lot of dogs started barking everywhere on the Swaziland side. Then the accused probably became nervous because all of us were afraid that people were approaching and the deceased began to gurgle, he made gurgling noises. And then we weren't sure whether he would die quickly or not. Then the accused took the spade with which we would have made the shallow grave in order to cover the deceased and he slashed the deceased' head with the spade."

In your evidence-in-chief you have not explained about the situation when Japie wanted to get up and Mr de Kock hit him over the head, you mentioned something about gurgling noises. Why didn't you mention it? Why didn't you speak about this first blow?

MR FOURIE: Because Mr de Kock hit him quite a few times and I couldn't recall whether he hit him once and again, or exactly how many blows he dealt him, but he hit him quite a few times.

MR HATTINGH: According to your evidence here today there were two clear incidents during which the deceased was struck with the spade.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Firstly when he tried to get up, according to you, then he was shot and then after he had been shot, when he lay there making gurgling noises, Mr de Kock hit him again with the spade. We didn't hear about the first blow during the evidence-in-chief.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but as I've explained to the Chairperson, these events took place in a matter of seconds, it was something that happened very quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hattingh, could I just have an indication, if we could have a very short break to give the interpreter a little bit of a breather.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll just have a short stop for five to ten minutes. Thank you.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, I was going to ask you about that, Mr Chairman.

Can you just complete this answer please, what were you saying? Everything happened very quickly, during a short period of time ...

MR FOURIE: Yes, it took place in a matter of seconds and everything happened so quickly that I am not certain of the precise chronological sequence of events. I know that the spade was used, a shot was fired and he was dead.

MR HATTINGH: And during the criminal trial you could also not remember the chronological sequence of events?

MR FOURIE: Not until today.

MR HATTINGH: But today you have provided with a proper sequence of events.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but I maintain that up until today I still cannot recall precisely how the events took place. According to what I know to be important, he was hit with the spade and a shot was fired to his head, but precisely how, I'm not sure.

MR HATTINGH: I'm putting it to you that you have adjusted your evidence to suit Mr Nortje's, that is why you have mentioned the first blow with the spade.

MR FOURIE: I don't have to do that, I know what happened because I was there.

MR HATTINGH: This will be a convenient stage, Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: May I just very quickly - in summary, you're saying you don't know which came first, the chop with the spade or the shot with the firearm, is that essentially what you are saying?

MR FOURIE: Ma'am, I remember the first spade incident, one chop with the spade before the bullet shot, to keep Japie down because he was trying to get up, then Mr de Kock hit him once with the spade.

ADV GCABASHE: Could that have been on his back rather than on his head?

MR FOURIE: No, on his head.

ADV GCABASHE: On his head.

MR FOURIE: And then he was down, he didn't try to get up again. And then Mr Willie Nortje came and he shot him with the pistol in the back of his head.

ADV GCABASHE: And then it's possible there were more ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: And then thereafter, Mr de Kock hit him again.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay. Hit him again. On the head ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: Because he wasn't dead yet, he was making noises and sounds came from his body. So he just made sure that he's dead.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll take a short break now, for the interpreters.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, you're still under your former oath.

EUGENE FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, I'm not going to read all the evidence which has been presented during cross-examination, but I want to put it to you that under cross-examination, when you were once again examined about the sequence of events, you did not mention these two separate incidents, you did not mention the first blow which was dealt, you only spoke of the blow which was dealt by Willie with a firearm, after which he collapsed, after which he was shot and then he began to make these gurgling noises and that was when Mr de Kock picked up the spade which lay on the ground, and struck him with it.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Why is that so?

MR FOURIE: Because I have a much better recollection. Because I know that Japie at one stage tried to get up, but that Willie did not hit him again with the gun and that is when Mr de Kock struck him with the spade, in order to get him to collapse.

MR HATTINGH: The evidence which you gave - Mr Chairman, you'll find that on page 330 onwards, 330 to 331 and so on.

Very well. He was struck and he was shot and then he began to make these gurgling noises according to you?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And he was once again struck with the spade by Mr de Kock?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And the dogs began barking and you became anxious.

MR FOURIE: Yes, the dogs began barking when Mr Nortje hit him.

MR HATTINGH: Before the shot was fired?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So when the blow was dealt with the gun, that is when the dogs began barking?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I assume that because it was quiet in the bush and the noise carried and the dogs could hear the noise quite well.

MR HATTINGH: And when the shot was fired, things must have worsened?

MR FOURIE: It sounded as if the dogs were approaching us, that they were moving closer in hour direction. That is when everybody became very nervous and wanted to finish everything off as quickly as possible.

MR HATTINGH: That's the point, you were hasty, you wanted to finish everything quickly.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The man was hit with the spade, and what happened then?

MR FOURIE: For the second time?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, after he was struck for the second time.

MR FOURIE: That is when he became quiet and there were no more gurgling noises.

MR HATTINGH: How long did you wait for that?

MR FOURIE: About a minute.

MR HATTINGH: And when he became quiet, what happened then?

MR FOURIE: That was when Willie and I started to cover him and Mr de Kock used the spade to throw things over Japie, such as branches and leaves. There were breathing sounds which were still coming from his mouth and we then covered him half way and Mr de Kock and Freek walked back and Willie and I stayed there until the very last to be certain that he was dead.

MR HATTINGH: But while you were so hasty and the dogs were approaching, you sat there waiting for the man to breath his final breath, why didn't you just fire another shot or if necessary, hit him again with the spade, to speed things up?

MR FOURIE: But that would have caused more noise.

MR HATTINGH: But the dogs had already heard it, they were on their way.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So why did you sit there waiting?

MR FOURIE: Because we suspected that he was already dead, but we just wanted to be certain.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have an instruction to stay there and make sure?

MR FOURIE: All that I can recall, and I haven't given evidence about this here during the hearing, but Mr de Kock said "You must make sure that he's dead, I don't want Freek to see him here again tomorrow".

MR HATTINGH: You didn't say that during the criminal trial?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And not here either?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: And now you recall it?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So once again you are moving closer to Mr Nortje's version.

MR FOURIE: He said it there at the scene and then he and Freek walked back and Willie and I waited there until the very last, we covered his head and placed a branch over his body.

MR HATTINGH: It's alright, you don't have to give us the entire sequence of events every single time. All I want to know from you is why you did not remember this?

MR FOURIE: It's human, I forgot.

MR HATTINGH: And what was it that refreshed your memory?

MR FOURIE: I couldn't think of the reason why Willie and I remained there alone and then I remember that Col de Kock said: "The two of you stay here, I don't want him walking around here at Nersden tomorrow and I don't want Freek to see him tomorrow".

MR HATTINGH: Did you hear Mr Nortje saying during the criminal trial, that Mr de Kock did not give such instructions, that you did this upon your own initiative?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Do you then remember an instruction?

MR FOURIE: I remember that Col Eugene said that we had to be sure that he was dead, that he didn't want him walking around the next day.

MR HATTINGH: I thought that he only said that at the vehicle, when you arrived back at the vehicle.

MR FOURIE: No, he said it there at the scene.

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Nortje said that Mr de Kock asked whether the man was really dead, that he didn't want him walking around in Nersden the following day.

MR FOURIE: I recall him saying it on the scene.

MR HATTINGH: What did Mr Pienaar do during this time?

MR FOURIE: He stood there.

MR HATTINGH: He simply stood there?

MR FOURIE: Yes. I don't know whether he helped to pick up leaves to put over Japie's body, I cannot say that because I cannot recall it.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but you mention that which you can recall, you say that you and Mr Nortje and Mr de Kock placed these items over him, but nothing about Mr Pienaar.

MR FOURIE: No, I can't recall that clearly.

MR HATTINGH: So you went back to the vehicle, and when you arrived there where was Mr van der Walt?

MR FOURIE: Mr van der Walt was at the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Was he in the vehicle or next to the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall whether he was seated inside the vehicle or whether he stood next to the vehicle, but all three of them were waiting for us.

MR HATTINGH: Do you recall Mr de Kock's version, that he asked you whether you had everything with you?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Would you dispute that he said this, "Are you sure that you have everything with you?"

MR FOURIE: I cannot dispute it.

MR HATTINGH: And that Mr van der Walt realised that he did not have his certificate of appointment with him?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall that.

MR HATTINGH: And that you went looking for it and found it in the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot recall that, because Mr de Kock still told us to leave everything at home, that we shouldn't bring anything with.

MR HATTINGH: Yes. Did you remove Maponya's clothing?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You cannot recall, or can you recall that he was wearing a shirt?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall, I imagine that I saw his upper body shining in the light.

MR HATTINGH: When you left Vlakplaas, was he dressed?

MR FOURIE: He had a blanket over him.

MR HATTINGH: So you did not see him at Nersden?

MR FOURIE: No, I don't believe so.

MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Hattingh.

Did I heard you correctly Mr Fourie, when you said that Mr de Kock told you at Vlakplaas not to bring anything with, to leave everything at home?

MR FOURIE: He told us there at the farm when we left, to make sure that we didn't have anything in our pockets. Because usually when we went to Swaziland to go and do work there, we would leave our identity cards at the farm, so that it wouldn't fall out if we were busy with an operation.

MR MALAN: Where were you when he told you this?

MR FOURIE: At Vlakplaas.

MR MALAN: Where at Vlakplaas? Were you in the canteen, in the car, next to the car, where?

MR FOURIE: There at the vehicle. He asked us whether we were certain that we did not have our IDs with us, because it was practice not to take an ID with on an operation.

MR MALAN: Very well.

MR FOURIE: The police ID card.

MR HATTINGH: On page 247 in bundle 3A, at the bottom of the page you were asked - there you gave evidence and you were examined about it. We now go to the following day, is said to you.

"The following evening we were at the farm with the white Nissan Trooper or Safari, it was Willie, Dawid van der Walt and Col de Kock and I. We stopped next to the canteen, then we loaded Japie into the vehicle, on the floor at the back seat.

Do you recall that evidence?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Do you recall that you stopped there and that you helped with the loading?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I mean the four of us loaded him, I'm not saying that all four of us loaded him. What I can remember is that Japie lay there when I saw him for the

first time on the farm.

MR HATTINGH: That he was covered with a blanket?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And then you are asked

"Was he still bound at that stage?"

And your answer:

"I think his hands were bound."

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And then you are asked

"Was he fully clothed?"

Do you recall that?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you say

"At that stage he was still wearing his shirt and his trousers."

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: How could you have said that?

MR FOURIE: All that I can recall today is that he was not wearing a shirt at the scene, that is why it is possible that his shirt may have been removed in the car, but I don't know, I don't know what happened to his shirt.

MR HATTINGH: That wasn't the question, Mr Fourie, the question was, if you say that you saw Mr Maponya for the first time on the floor of the vehicle and he was completely covered with a blanket, how could you say that at that stage he was still wearing his shirt and trousers?

MR FOURIE: I simply assumed that, I wasn't sure. I was only sure that at the scene he was not wearing a shirt.

MR HATTINGH: And that indicates to me that you did indeed assist in loading him into the vehicle and that is why you can say that he was still clothed.

MR FOURIE: Today I still don't know where he was detained. I know that he was detained in the house. I would have fetched him from his detention room and put him in the vehicle, but I don't know exactly where he was detained in the house.

MR HATTINGH: And now you say that at the scene he was suddenly no longer wearing a shirt?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you also say that you don't know whether you removed the shirt on the way there?

MR FOURIE: No, I don't know, all that I know is that on the scene he wasn't wearing a shirt because I saw his upper body gleaming in the light which shone through.

MR HATTINGH: What light was this?

MR FOURIE: It wasn't completely dark like these curtains in the front here, one could see in front of oneself.

MR HATTINGH: And you could even see a bare upper body gleaming?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: I want to put it to you that that is a bit farfetched, Mr Fourie.

MR FOURIE: Well he must have been sweating.

MR HATTINGH: Why would he have been sweating?

MR FOURIE: In his struggle to get up he must have sweated and he was nervous, his body was gleaming.

MR HATTINGH: Once again on page 248 you are asked by Mr de Meillon - and please note that this is part of your evidence-in-chief, he asked you, or the Court asked you

"Freek is now?"

And your answer:

"Warrant Officer Freek Pienaar."

The Court says:

"Yes."

And you say:

"We stopped and everyone climbed out of the vehicle, then we climbed over the border fence."

And then Mr de Meillon asks you:

"Where was Japie at that stage?"

And you say:

"Japie was with us. Willie was holding him with his arm like this."

And then you are asked:

"Was he still fully clothed?"

And you say:

"I suspect so, but if I recall clearly, later at the scene itself he was not wearing a shirt."

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So you say that you suspect that he was still fully clothes, but later he wasn't wearing a shirt?

MR FOURIE: I cannot explain it, but I know that he wasn't wearing a shirt.

MR HATTINGH: And on page 291 you even say - at the top of the page, I say to you

"Can I just turn to the scene where the alleged assault took place there in the bush. Did Japie still have the blanket over his head when he was struck with the spade?"

Your answer:

"No, and he also wearing a shirt, his body was gleaming."

And I asked you:

"What happened to that blanket?"

Your answer:

"I don't know."

"What happened to his shirt, how did it come to be that he suddenly wasn't wearing a shirt?"

Your answer:

"I think his shirt was still in the vehicle and that he only had the blanket around his body and over his head, because at the scene he was not wearing a shirt, his body was gleaming in the sun."

MR FOURIE: That is an incorrect statement because it was nighttime, the sun wasn't shining.

MR HATTINGH: Well that's what appears there, whatever the case may be.

MR FOURIE: It might be a typing error.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I won't make much of that, it may be a typing error, but I don't know in what sort of light it could have been confused with sunlight. But whatever the case may be, where was the man's shirt removed?

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: And it could not have been on the way there because his hands were bound behind his back and you couldn't remove the shirt unless you removed the handcuffs.

MR FOURIE: Mr Hattingh, all I know is that at the scene he was not wearing a shirt. I don't know when his shirt was removed.

MR HATTINGH: And the blanket you say, did he walk into the bush with the blanket and everything?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that's how I recall it, the blanket had been placed over his head, but I cannot recall that his eyes were blindfolded and that at the scene the blanket was removed.

MR HATTINGH: And what happened to the blanket?

MR FOURIE: We had to bring it with, along with his trousers and whatever else we brought back.

MR HATTINGH: What did you bring back?

MR FOURIE: His trousers, possibly his socks and that could also have been the blanket as well, along with the handcuffs.

MR HATTINGH: My memory may be failing me, but do you recall that you were asked what happened to the blanket and your answer was that it is possible that it may have been left at the scene?

MR FOURIE: Yes, but we wouldn't have done that.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now you are back at the vehicle, and who sat where in the vehicle, according to you?

MR FOURIE: Then Freek and I and Dawid sat in the back and as I recall, because Willie drove most of the way, I suspect that Willie drove and Col de Kock sat in front on the left.

MR HATTINGH: But Willie gave evidence that when you arrived at the vehicle, somebody else took the wheel.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I heard him give evidence to that, but I don't know about that.

MR HATTINGH: You say that you and Pienaar and van der Walt sat in the back?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: All three of you on the same back seat, you didn't climb into the "diekkie" again?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So why were all of you sitting on the back seat, when you sat in the "diekkie" on the way there?

MR FOURIE: Because on the way there, Japie lay on the floor and it was uncomfortable for all of us to be seated on the back seat and because Japie wasn't there anymore, there was nothing obstructing the floor space so there was more space to be seated.

MR HATTINGH: So you went back to Piet Retief and then to Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: Yes, we went to drop Freek off and then we returned to Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: And this spade, you say that you don't know what happened to it?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: What happened to the clothing?

MR FOURIE: I've heard that Willie burnt the clothing.

MR HATTINGH: Did you hear an instruction being issued for that?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see him load the clothing into his vehicle?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Didn't it concern you that there was a spade which contained remnants of human tissue and human blood?

MR FOURIE: No, because I had full confidence in Mr de Kock, that he would have arranged for everything to be destroyed.

MR HATTINGH: Let us return to your knowledge of the area. You say that when you were at Vlakplaas before you were transferred to C2, that Swaziland area and the Swaziland border was an area where you did much work.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you knew all the border posts in that area?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And we know that there was a border post or border posts in the vicinity of Piet Retief.

MR FOURIE: Yes, there was Mahamba, there were quite a few.

MR HATTINGH: Quite a few?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And the closest post to Piet Retief was how far away?

MR FOURIE: About 18 to 20 kilometres.

MR HATTINGH: 18 to 20 kilometres?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Much closer than Nersden?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And just to cut it short, during the criminal trial you were examined about this and you conceded that there were several other places which were much better.

MR FOURIE: Yes, if you moved a few kilometres outside Piet Retief, the plantations began.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but then you would be in the RSA still, and if you wanted it to be in Swaziland, the border was close-by?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And there were many ways of crossing the border without having to go past a border post?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you were aware of this?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And Mr Pienaar?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Can you explain why you went to Nersden?

MR FOURIE: I would have to speculate because I don't know. It must have been an arrangement between Col de Kock and Freek Pienaar, because I don't know anything about their telephonic discussions.

MR HATTINGH: But while you were driving along you knew what they were going to do?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You knew that you were going to get rid of the man in Swaziland?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Didn't you ask the people why, because you said there at the house Mr Pienaar told Willie to Nersden.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But didn't you ask why are we going to Nersden, why do we have to drive so far?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Why not?

MR FOURIE: Because I assumed that Freek had already found a safe place for us to murder Mr Maponya on the Swazi side of the border.

MR HATTINGH: And when you saw the place, was it such a safe place?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it was reasonably safe.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but there were also houses in the vicinity.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And dogs that were barking?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And there were many other places which were far away from any kind of settlement, where one could cross the border?

MR FOURIE: Yes, one could have driven another 10 kilometres.

MR HATTINGH: Yes. But one could have done this much closer to Piet Retief?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you simply thought that Freek had selected this suitable spot?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: While you would still concede that there were many other more suitable places in the area?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: On thing which is certain, Mr Fourie, is that you knew the area very well, perhaps not as well as Mr Pienaar ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: Well he was born there and he grew up there.

MR HATTINGH: But you knew the area well?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But what you didn't know was the movements of policemen on the border?

MR FOURIE: No, I didn't know about that.

MR HATTINGH: And that is what Mr Pienaar probably knew?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: In his capacity as the head of that Security Police branch at Piet Retief, they would have had regular liaison with the police who were involved in border control?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The policemen who were performing border duty at that stage, are you aware that there were numerous young people there who, instead of performing their military service or training in the Defence Force, did so in the police?

MR FOURIE: Yes. At a stage there were servicemen who were transferred to the police, but I don't know whether it was like that at that stage, but I know that it was ceased at one point.

MR HATTINGH: And that they were used for border patrols and so forth?

MR FOURIE: Yes. The policemen would relieve one another every two to three months or every three months they would get policemen from stations. There wasn't a unit that dealt only with border patrols.

MR HATTINGH: I have the impression that you are admitting that it would not have been a disaster if the police had found you on the border because they knew Mr Pienaar.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: But isn't that something that you actually wanted to avoid?

MR FOURIE: That we ...?

MR HATTINGH: To inform other people of your activities and your operations.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Including other policemen?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So that is something that you preferably didn't want to happen?

MR FOURIE: Yes. I assume that Mr Pienaar would have arranged for the unit not to patrol there on that particular evening.

MR HATTINGH: And if he had gone to enough trouble, he would have arranged for them to patrol much closer to Piet Retief?

MR FOURIE: That was his choice, because many times he saw informers from Swaziland and then he would inform the border units that he was going to be seeing someone that night and that if they saw a vehicle going past, that they shouldn't be worried because it was him because he was going to interview an informer and that was the arrangement.

MR HATTINGH: And then he would interview informers?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But here you have a man in the vehicle.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: A man that you were going to kill.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: That a completely different story, you don't want the police to see this.

MR FOURIE: Yes, and it was also safer if Freek was there because he knew the policemen and he would be able to get us through there very easily without a search.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Fourie, the manner in which you tried to get rid of this body - let me put it this way, it is actually a miracle that this murder and the covering of the body of Mr Maponya, as you did it there, was not discovered a day or two later, isn't that so?

MR FOURIE: I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Because it was covered it was covered with branches and leaves.

MR FOURIE: yes.

MR HATTINGH: It would have started decomposing, there would have been a smell and somebody would have found something?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I expected that.

MR HATTINGH: And then people would have remembered, but this man was killed about two or three days ago according to the district physician and that's the night that Freek and the others were here.

MR FOURIE: I beg your pardon, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: But then there would have been people who would have remembered that on that night Freek and the others were there and the district physician, when they had found him ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But - sorry, Mr Hattingh, wasn't it said that one of the reasons for doing the killing in Swaziland was that if the body was found, it would be found by the Swazis?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wouldn't involve the district surgeon and the South African Police.

MR FOURIE: Yes, they wouldn't have know if it was Swazi or a South African, but they would have accepted the man was killed in Swaziland.

MR HATTINGH: And do you say the South African Police would not have been at the scene?

MR FOURIE: Except if the Swazis specifically asked for assistance in identification of the person.

MR HATTINGH: And this they did from time to time, not so?

MR FOURIE: I don't know, I did not deal with inquests.

MR HATTINGH: But the discovery of a body so near to the border would have been made known among the police members there?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And that could have resulted in questions?

MR FOURIE: Yes. But I just want to add this, my honest idea is that that body was removed the following morning.

MR HATTINGH: Removed?

MR FOURIE: Yes, and taken to another place.

MR HATTINGH: Who would have done that?

MR FOURIE: It could have only been Freek because Freek knew where the body was.

MR HATTINGH: Now why do you say that, Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: Because all evidence - what you just put to me, that the police could have found out about it, that there was a body there and it was not necessary for such enquiries, as you have put it to me now.

MR HATTINGH: But it sounds to me as if - if Mr Pienaar went to all that trouble, he would have done everything in his power that the police do not find them.

MR FOURIE: That's the only inference that I could have drawn because we could not find the body, no bones were found. We went and enquired on the Swaziland side, from the Swazi who was in control of the plantation. We asked the Superintendent of the Swaziland Royal Police and they said no bones were found, no body was found.

MR HATTINGH: When were these enquiries made?

MR FOURIE: When we went and made these pointings out.

MR HATTINGH: About 10 years later?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: We don't even know whether that Superintendent was stationed there at that time.

MR FOURIE: No, we don't know, but we asked from the local inhabitants there.

MR HATTINGH: In Swaziland?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And they did not know anything?

MR FOURIE: No, they did not know anything.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. You often ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Hattingh, but this is just a statement with regard to Mr Pienaar.

Wouldn't it have been incredibly stupid of him to leave a body there and return at three in the morning and then go back at 7 o'clock and remove the body? What makes you think that he was involved there?

MR FOURIE: Mr Malan, that is the only thing I can think of, the body was never found, the bones were never found, that the body was removed the following day. I did not say it as a statement.

MR MALAN: But there would have been places closer, or maybe in his backyard at home.

MR FOURIE: Yes, but the reason why a body was never found, that is why I make that inference. I do not state it as fact.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Sir.

MR HATTINGH: You often worked with Mr Pienaar, did you?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: In the days when you were stationed at C1, before you were transferred to C2?

MR FOURIE: Yes, at C1 and C2 I worked with him.

MR HATTINGH: Were you involved with cross-border operations often?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Is it not possible, Mr Fourie, that you may be confusing this incident with some of the other incidents where you were involved with him in cross-border operations?

MR FOURIE: No, because I was never involved with him where we killed somebody.

MR HATTINGH: Because Mr de Kock says he was not there and Pienaar himself says he was not there.

MR FOURIE: I am here to speak the truth, Freek Pienaar accompanied us to point to us the place where we should commit the murder. And I want to put it like this, Mr de Kock is lying.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Although he also gave evidence under oath.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You speak the truth because you speak under an oath?

MR FOURIE: I speak the truth because I know Freek Pienaar was there.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever give information to Mr de Kock about an incident where Mr Pienaar was involved, the killing of a person with a pocket knife?

MR FOURIE: One day I told Mr de Kock when we - I don't know if it was before or after the Maponya incident, but I told Mr de Kock that one day I had heard - and this is all hearsay, there were not facts, but I heard that - when you're on your way to Amsterdam there is a bridge with a small river running underneath it, and I heard that a speed-cop went and had his lunch there and he found a body and there were rumours there that Freek had killed a person because he had been covered up with stones. It was never said as a fact, I've never heard it as a fact, it was just police rumours.

MR HATTINGH: When you went past that place, did you show him the place where the incident took place?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Was a body found there?

MR FOURIE: I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: How did you then know where the place is?

MR FOURIE: One day we passed there and then someone form the Eastern Transvaal said to me "Here a speed-cop found a body" and he said Freek killed the person. It's all hearsay, I cannot give evidence about it.

MR HATTINGH: Did you not give a bit more positive information about it?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall. Because it was only rumours, I did not bother or concern myself with rumours.

MR HATTINGH: Have you heard Mr de Kock's evidence in this regard?

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall what he said.

MR HATTINGH: He said that you said, or you told him, or he cannot say that you had firsthand knowledge, but you told him that Mr Pienaar at that place, the place where you passed, Mr Pienaar killed somebody by slitting his throat with a pocket knife. That is what he said.

MR FOURIE: That is possible, but it was still rumours, it was not facts, it was only hearsay.

MR HATTINGH: But now I get to the point that I want to make. Mr de Kock goes and he tells the Attorney-General and his team - and for members of the Truth Commission's Investigative Unit, who enquired from him about several events, he tells them about this incident and he even wants to point the place out to them. Can you dispute that?

MR FOURIE: I don't know how Mr de Kock can do it, because it was rumours and I said I imagine that I heard something like that.

MR HATTINGH: But he tells them that you told him Pienaar had killed a man there by slitting his throat with a pocket knife.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Hattingh is putting to you is that you made a positive statement, you didn't say to Mr de Kock, there's rumours that Pienaar killed. What is being put is that Mr de Kock says you told him that Pienaar cut somebody's throat here in ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: No, I said they were rumours that Freek - I didn't hear it from Freek, or there were rumours at that moment that Freek killed that man, which was discovered by the traffic-cop. I didn't tell him that Freek did kill that man, otherwise the Attorney-General would have visited me as well and they never did.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, we don't know the reason therefore, but Mr de Kock said that that is what he told them. Now I want to put it to you, does that sound like someone who tries to protect Mr Pienaar?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: You also know that Mr de Kock incriminates Mr Pienaar in several other instances.

MR FOURIE: That is what I heard about.

MR HATTINGH: And that is the incidents where Mr Pienaar applies for amnesty.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: My attention is drawn to the fact that we don't know whether has applied for all the incidents for which Mr de Kock incriminates him, but we know of some of them. For example, the one which was already heard, Mr Nyanda's murder.

MR FOURIE: I don't know what they were involved with, I was not present all the time.

MR HATTINGH: Were you ever involved with Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock together, where people were killed?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Which ones?

MR FOURIE: It was the one close to Nersden border post.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) talking about.

MR FOURIE: No, Sir, that was another - Shadrack Mapumulo incident.

MR HATTINGH: Did you apply for amnesty for that one?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether Mr Pienaar did?

MR FOURIE: I don't know, we have no contact with each other.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock also applied for amnesty for that one, are you aware thereof?

MR FOURIE: No, I'm not.

MR HATTINGH: Is that the only incident where people were killed, except now for Maponya? Where Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock were involved.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You were not involved with the Piet Retief shootings?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would just like to consult my notes. I think I've more-or-less reached the end of my cross-examination, but I would just like to make sure. I don't know if you want to give me five minutes now, or ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take five minutes. I prefer it if possible, if we could finish with Mr Fourie's testimony today.

MR HATTINGH: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Seeing that - if we finish, I don't know how long Mr Visser and Mr Wagener, Ramawele and the others will be, but it would be better if we could finish his evidence. We'll take a short five minute break.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

EUGENE FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity, we have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr Visser?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Fourie, I'll put a statement to you and you tell me whether it's wrong or right. The decision to abduct Japie Maponya, was taken by Mr de Kock with the approval from Captain Kleynhans and General le Roux, as far as you know, is that correct or incorrect?

MR FOURIE: The killing?

MR VISSER: No. Please listen carefully. The decision to abduct Japie Maponya, was taken by Mr de Kock with the approval of Mr Kleynhans and General le Roux. Was that your insight?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the instruction to kill Maponya after his interrogation, came from Mr de Kock.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I believed and with the knowledge of Brig Schoon.

MR VISSER: That's what you believed. That was what Mr Nortje also believed. And that you believed because Mr de Kock went to head office the next morning?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: You believed that he would ask for authorisation?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And there at Vlakplaas, under whose command were you then, during the assault and afterwards?

MR FOURIE: Col de Kock.

MR VISSER: Was there any reason why Mr de Kock would have told you that Japie Maponya would be killed, if that was the decision in Krugersdorp?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR VISSER: As I have understood your evidence, which fits in to what you have answered now, it's that the first time you realised that Japie Maponya would be killed was at Vlakplaas.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: I have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramawele?

MR RAMAWELE: I've got no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bridjlall?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BRIDJLALL: Thank you.

Mr Fourie, when Mr de Kock came back to the vehicle after meeting with le Roux at Krugersdorp, in your evidence-in-chief you said that he said to you that le Roux wanted Maponya abducted and taken to Vlakplaas, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS BRIDJLALL: Did he say that le Roux wanted Maponya to be taken to Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: To be interrogated.

MS BRIDJLALL: At Vlakplaas?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS BRIDJLALL: You said that Mr Maponya answered certain questions at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: He answered questions. I don't know what they talked about because they were talking in a black language, but sometimes he did say yes or no, but he never explained anything.

MS BRIDJLALL: If he was answering in a black language as you say, was it not then interpreted into Afrikaans, and was it not explained to you or Mr de Kock, this is the question, this is the answer?

MR FOURIE: Well I didn't notice because he never talked. I wasn't interested in what he was to say.

MS BRIDJLALL: But you were at the interrogation, why were you not interested?

MR FOURIE: I was interested in the movements of his brother, Mainstay Maponya. I did not know which information Krugersdorp had about Japie Maponya, I only knew that his brother was a terrorist and I was concerned where the terrorist was.

MS BRIDJLALL: But were his answers not translated?

MR FOURIE: They were.

MS BRIDJLALL: What were those answers? What questions were being asked? Could you not tell from those answers, what questions were ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: I cannot recall everything exactly, but it was asked where is his brother and statements were put to him that "You must know where your brother is, how do you not know where your brother is, when was the last time you had contact with him?"

MS BRIDJLALL: Yes, and do you not remember what questions he answered and what his answers were?

MR FOURIE: No, I only know he said yes or no, he never gave any explanation and that is why I had the idea that he kept information, because he did not want to talk.

MS BRIDJLALL: You see, Mr Fourie, my instructions are that Mr Maponya really didn't know where his brother was and that when he was saying no to some of your questions, it was because he didn't know. What gave you the impression - except for that the man who is being assaulted is saying yes and no to certain questions, what gave you the impression that he was actually withholding information?

MR FOURIE: The fact that Krugersdorp Security Branch had called for us and spent so much money was spent to bring people there and vehicles there and I believe that Krugersdorp Security Branch did have information with regard to Japie Maponya, to interrogate him, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble. And that is why I assumed that he was not speaking the truth, he was not giving us information. Because Krugersdorp would not have called us in ...(intervention)

MS BRIDJLALL: So you were basing your assumption on the fact that Krugersdorp had spent all of this money bringing C1 in and not on the fact that Mr Maponya appeared to be withholding information. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Sorry, I don't understand the question.

MS BRIDJLALL: You were basing your assumption that Mr Maponya was withholding information, on the fact that Krugersdorp had spent all of this money bringing C1 in, and not on the fact that Mr Maponya appeared to be ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: No, I believed that Krugersdorp had information that he had information that they wanted to get from him.

MS BRIDJLALL: So there was nothing that appeared from the interrogation or from his demeanour that he was actually withholding information?

MR FOURIE: The fact that he did not speak out, because he gave no explanation, he just yes/no and he was quiet. He was quiet right up to the day of his death, the minute of his death he did not speak. So I assumed he was lying, he was not telling us about his brother, Mainstay Maponya.

MS BRIDJLALL: Mr Fourie, the reason that Mr Maponya was silent to the moment of his death was because he really didn't know where his brother was.

Mr Fourie, do you know whether - do you know when Mr de Kock asked Kleynhans and Dunckley, or whether he asked Mr Kleynhans and Dunckley to come to Vlakplaas the next day?

MR FOURIE: I can only recall that when we dropped Mr Kleynhans in Krugersdorp, after Japie was abducted, he said that he will see us at the farm.

MS BRIDJLALL: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, do you know whether Mr de Kock asked Messrs Kleynhans and Dunckley to come the next day?

MR FOURIE: No, not as a fact because they had to come because it was their subject, they wanted to interrogate him or be present during the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is, did you hear de Kock as Mr ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: No.

MR MALAN: The question from the Chairperson is about the following day, not the evening.

MR FOURIE: No, I did not hear that, that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: After the interrogation did he ask them to come the next day?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not hear that.

MS BRIDJLALL: Were you expecting Dunckley and Kleynhans to be part of this operation on the next day?

MR FOURIE: No. I assumed that we had to go and kill him and six people can't go to kill one person.

MS BRIDJLALL: So did it become a Vlakplaas operation?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS BRIDJLALL: Thank you, Mr Fourie, I do not have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BRIDJLALL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Bridglall. Ms Lockhat?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: You said that this was a Vlakplaas operation.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: Did - during this entire incident, was there ever an impression created that it was actually Gen le Roux's operation?

MR FOURIE: It was only - according to my opinion, it was only Gen le Roux's operation to abduct him and to interrogate him, it was never my idea that Gen le Roux said that he must be killed.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that de Kock had given the askaris instructions in front of you, what did he say?

MR FOURIE: He said that they did not have to come back the following day, they can go about their business because they had just returned after a month, they could go home.

MS LOCKHAT: Just to interrupt you, that was - I'm talking when you were in Krugersdorp and you were downstairs and then de Kock came and he spoke to the askaris. Did he just tell them to go out there? Did he talk about the abduction as well or was it just ...(intervention)

MR FOURIE: I was not present when he briefed them, but he and Mr Kleynhans must have explained to them where they had to go to take up their positions to wait for Japie.

MS LOCKHAT: So you weren't basically around regarding Gen le Roux's instructions etc., etc?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, were you an old hand at C1 previously?

MR FOURIE: I was there from January 1982 to June or July 1984.

MS LOCKHAT: You said in your examination-in-chief that you knew exactly how C1 operated.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: Can you elaborate on that?

MR FOURIE: Our task was the combatting of terrorism, the tracing of terrorists, covert operation in the neighbouring States, to combat terrorism. That was what it was basically.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that you were assigned to Mr de Kock as his driver.

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Who assigned you to this position?

MR FOURIE: Mr de Kock requested that I drive him that month.

MS LOCKHAT: Who did he request this from, was it Naude?

MR FOURIE: He would have - because he was my head, he would have told him, but usually it was not an issue because if Mr de Kock asked me "Do you want to come along this month, can you come along", then I would ask Mr Naude "May I go along?" and he would say yes.

MS LOCKHAT: So why do you think de Kock specifically asked for you?

MR FOURIE: Because I knew how C1 worked and I knew the teams and I knew the people, the blacks and the whites.

MS LOCKHAT: You said when you went to Krugersdorp you knew about this interrogation etc., why at that stage didn't you tell de Kock, listen I was assigned to be your driver, why are you roping me in into this incident?

MR FOURIE: Well we had much respect for Mr de Kock, we did not dispute. If he took a decision, we believed that it was correct and it was cleared out and it was properly planned, it was not a problem.

MS LOCKHAT: You said when you were at Vlakplaas, there were lots of other members.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: But Mr de Kock specifically said you should stay, Nortje, van der Walt.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: Why?

MR FOURIE: Because the other teams had not returned from their areas. There was a team in the Eastern Transvaal, one in Western Transvaal and another in the Eastern Cape, but they had not yet returned, they would have returned the Friday. They were still busy with work in their areas.

MS LOCKHAT: Is it possible that he also had confidence in you, that he could trust you, that you knew about C1 operations and therefore you were a perfect candidate?

MR FOURIE: It's possible.

MS LOCKHAT: And that you would not - if they enter into any illegal operation, that you won't inform other people about it, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: It's possible.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you go back and inform Naude about this?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MS LOCKHAT: Why not?

MR FOURIE: Well for that month I was under the command of Col de Kock, I did not need to go and explain to Col Naude what was happening because he knew that I was Eugene's driver for that month.

MS LOCKHAT: But you were still a member of the unit of C2, isn't that so?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS LOCKHAT: And that Naude was actually your commander at the end of the day?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS LOCKHAT: So then you should have actually informed him.

MR FOURIE: Well I did not deem it necessary, I did not want to speak of it and the thing had been completed with C1, it was nothing to do with C2. Mr Naude would just have assumed that I am back and I will go back to C2.

MS LOCKHAT: Do you think that Mr Naude would have informed maybe the Commissioner of Police or any other persons, relating to these illegal activities?

MR FOURIE: It's possible.

MS LOCKHAT: I put it to you, Mr Fourie, that you were a perfect candidate for this because Mr de Kock trusted you on this mission.

MR FOURIE: It's possible.

MS LOCKHAT: And that your commander wasn't really informed, as you well said, about this illegal activity. Your commander, Naude.

MR FOURIE: No he was not.

MS LOCKHAT: Would you say - would you agree with me that you took Freek Pienaar along with you because it was his jurisdiction? That if people had come across you, that Freek Pienaar would take care of everything because he was a commander of that security branch in that area, Piet Retief? Did you feel safe because he was with your unit that night?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: Do you think that is why Freek Pienaar went along with you?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to come back, you said that Freek Pienaar and the Security Branch had numerous or regular meetings, with who was this?

MR FOURIE: It was with the Commander of the Counter Insurgency Unit of the Police who patrolled the border.

MS LOCKHAT: So there wasn't really regular meetings between Mr de Kock, or ...

MR FOURIE: No.

MS LOCKHAT: No. So would you also agree with Mr Nortje, that this mission was an unnecessary mission to kill Japie Maponya?

MR FOURIE: I feel like that today.

MS LOCKHAT: So do you also say today that you followed Mr Eugene de Kock blindly into this mission?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I believed him and I believed in him and I trusted him and I did it on command of Col de Kock.

MS LOCKHAT: Did he ever at any stage tell you that he had received instructions from Brig Schoon?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you ever ask him?

MR FOURIE: No, I just accepted that he went to head office and he would have cleared it with Brig Schoon.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you ask him after the incident?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr Lamey, any re

examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, during cross-examination it was eluded to that you are trying to adapt your version to fit in with Mr Nortje's version. Did you hear those statements?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, did you receive Section 204 indemnity after you gave evidence in the de Kock trial?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR LAMEY: I would like to refer you to page 351 up to page 352, where you were under cross-examination from Mr Hattingh with regard to the blows with the spade. Statements were put to you that you are trying to modify your evidence, can you recall that?

MR FOURIE: No, I cannot.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I refer to page 351.

Mr Hattingh says here:

"But why did you not initially explain it like that in your evidence? Why when I confront you with Mr Nortje's version, you adapt your version so that it falls in with his?"

And then you answer:

"To me it sounded as if the shot went off first."

And later you explained that it happened very quickly, approximately simultaneously. And on page 352 you say:

"All those things took place almost simultaneously, it happened very quickly."

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: Is that still your recollection that these things followed each other very quickly?

MR FOURIE: It was a few minutes, it was not a long period.

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, at some stage you had referred in cross-examination to the wound. Did you see the wound?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR LAMEY: And where was the wound?

MR FOURIE: The wound was on his head, not from ear to ear, but from the crown to his forehead.

MR LAMEY: Was there any wounds to his face?

MR FOURIE: Not that I could recall.

MR LAMEY: A wound like the sharp edge of a spade to his face?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR LAMEY: There was nothing like that?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, is there any reason - and did that reason exist during the de Kock trial and does it possibly still exist today, that you had any motivation to falsely - because that is the effect of the difference between Mr de Kock and your evidence, to falsely involve Mr Pienaar with this incident in bush at Nersden if he was not there?

MR FOURIE: No, I have too much respect for Mr Pienaar, he was a very good police officer.

MR LAMEY: Much was made of the evidence with regard to Mr de Kock, the use of teargas. You heard that Mr de Kock admitted to it?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR LAMEY: And then at some stage you mentioned that you were not sure, but you think that Mr Dunckley participated in the assault, are you sure? What is your position?

MR FOURIE: No, I'm not sure.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me, I just want to make sure that I have covered everything. Mr Chairman, that is my re-examination, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you, Chair.

Mr Fourie, two short questions. Krugersdorp. Mr de Kock in his testimony - you heard him, said he went to see Mr le Roux when he arrived in the morning, then after the abduction you went back to the office and you went to see Mr le Roux again. Do you know anything about the second meeting?

MR FOURIE: No, we didn't go and see Mr le Roux, we went and dropped off Mr Kleynhans at the branch and he said he would go and see Mr le Roux, but we didn't go to him after the abduction.

ADV GCABASHE: Maybe I should ask the question this way, do you know if Mr de Kock went into the office again? You may not have been at that meeting.

MR FOURIE: No, he did not, we just dropped off Mr Kleynhans and then we went back to the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: But before the abduction, do you know how many meetings Mr de Kock had with Mr le Roux?

MR FOURIE: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: You did not go into the office at all, you stayed outside?

MR FOURIE: No, I didn't attend any meeting.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay. Second question. As a general practice, when you go into somebody else's area of operation you would inform them that you are going to work in their area of operation?

MR FOURIE: That's correct, as it was explained in the instructions from head office.

ADV GCABASHE: Right. Now I'm trying to relate this to the Freek Pienaar business. Would it be standard practice for you, in these circumstances, to go and tell Freek Pienaar, we are operating in your area, but not necessarily take him along with you? You can relate that to any area, it could be Eastern Cape, it could be anywhere else. Would the person who you contacted have to go along with you if you went to do whatever you were going to do in his area?

MR FOURIE: No, not necessarily, he just has to know that we are there.

ADV GCABASHE: That's the important bit, that he should know you are there, that's it.

MR FOURIE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan, any questions?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Fourie, that concludes your testimony.

MR FOURIE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that brings our proceedings for the day to a close. We'll adjourn then until tomorrow, same venue at half past nine in the morning, when we'll continue with this matter.

MR FOURIE: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, may I just say something else?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR FOURIE: At the moment I'm paying for all my costs to be here and I am prepared to show the family where the scene is where we murdered him. I don't know if there's a request from them for me to go and show them, otherwise I'll still have to stay a few more days to organise that and it will mean more costs for me and I'm workless at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I wonder, on this one I must confess I don't know too much about the payment of costs and fees within the Commission, but I wonder if perhaps Ms Lockhat and Mr Lamey could have a discussion about that with - and Ms Bridjlall, with the victims and see if any arrangement can be made and if so, when would be a convenient time or whatever, and also with regard to the question of costs of such an expedition if it is undertaken.

MS LOCKHAT: We shall do that, Chairperson.

MR FOURIE: Excuse me Chairperson, because I had to come here on my own costs, I live here on my own costs and I have to go back on my own costs, it would mean extra costs for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I appreciate that. If they could discuss that as soon as possible.

MR FOURIE: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll adjourn then until half past nine tomorrow morning.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS