MR SIBANYONI: Mr Snyders, for the purposes of the record, your full name?
PETRUS CASPARUS SNYDERS: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in, Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. If I may proceed I'm going to refer to pages 262 to 268 of the bundle that has been supplied.
Mr Snyders, you are an amnesty applicant in this matter, is that correct?
MR SNYDERS: That is correct.
MR BOTHA: You have also completed a statement which forms part of your amnesty application, and I refer you to page 262, 263, 264, 265, 267, 268, those pages of your application. Do you confirm the contents of it?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: And do you also confirm the truth of it?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: In your amnesty application you describe the incident which took place in the canteen at Vlakplaas, is it possible that you could inform the Committee and describe to the Committee what happened there according to your recollection.
MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, approximately 18H00 or 19H00 we arrived at Vlakplaas after we went to Swaziland for an operation.
MR BOTHA: Who were these "we" that you refer to?
MR SNYDERS: The members of Vlakplaas whom I can recall according to my application, Leon Flores, Maj de Kock - Col de Kock, Wouter Mentz, Dawid Britz, Willie Nortje, Piet Botha, Capt du Plessis, Johan Hoffman, Bellingan, Douw Willemse, Snor Vermeulen and Lionel Snyman.
MR BOTHA: Is this an all inclusive list or is it that you may be mistaken about the names of some of the people and where you incorrectly are nominating people who were present and that you have omitted persons who were indeed present?
MR SNYDERS: It is possible that my list is not correct, Chairperson. This was 10 years back and it may be that I have omitted some of the names or have placed in names of persons who at that stage were not there.
MR BOTHA: Before you continue, the deceased, Moses Ntehelang, what was his position and what was your position?
MR SNYDERS: He was a worker in my team, I acted as a Lieutenant in command of two teams who operated in the Eastern Transvaal and he was one of the persons who worked in my team.
MR BOTHA: You can continue when you arrived at the canteen.
MR SNYDERS: As I've said we arrived approximately 19H00, we unpacked our equipment and Col de Kock asked us to gather some wood so that we could start a braai. We had bought some meat. We opened the canteen and then enjoyed a few drinks.
MR BOTHA: What was your state of sobriety at that stage?
MR SNYDERS: I had consumed two or three beers, but because I drove all the way from Swaziland I did not drink much and I also had a function at my house, so I decided not to drink too much. So I was totally sober, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: Yes, you had a braai.
MR SNYDERS: I cannot recall specifically if we braaied that evening, but we opened the canteen and we enjoyed a few more drinks at the canteen and we started playing snooker, and at some stage somebody, I cannot recall who it was, brought Ntehelang to me and he reported that his pistol was missing and I am not certain whether Leon Flores was with me. I took him in to Col de Kock.
MR BOTHA: Did you search the deceased at that stage?
MR SNYDERS: When we arrived in the canteen I searched him, I found a role of notes in his back pocket and I realised that he could not have been mugged or robbed, because he told us he had been robbed of his firearm and I could not believe it because they would have taken his money also if he was robbed.
MR BOTHA: What was the conclusion that you drew under the circumstances?
MR SNYDERS: My first idea was that he had either sold the firearm or that he may have used it in a robbery and robbed somebody of the money and had disposed of the firearm.
MR BOTHA: What happened to the money, can you recall?
MR SNYDERS: I'm not certain, but I think I placed the money on the counter table, whereafter we started questioning the person.
MR BOTHA: When you say "we started questioning the man", what type of questioning are you referring to and which persons questioned him?
MR SNYDERS: Col de Kock started asking questions and I stood by him, asked him questions to explain his absence because he was absent for so long, and where his firearm was and then Col de Kock struck him with the snooker cue. I don't know how many blows.
MR BOTHA: The questioning, did he answer you?
MR SNYDERS: No, he did not pay any attention to us, he did not want to answer any questions.
MR BOTHA: And what happened then?
MR SNYDERS: I saw that the questioning would take place for quite some time and I would not arrive at home in time and I went to a telephone which was in the building adjacent to the canteen, to inform my wife that I would be arriving late that evening. I was away for approximately 15 minutes from the canteen, and when I returned I saw there was something on the floor, wrapped in a blanket and Col de Kock told me to fetch my vehicle and what was lying there. Afterwards I assumed that that has to be the body or that it has to be a person and I assumed that the only person it could be was Ntehelang. The corpse was loaded into the back of my vehicle and we drove in the direction of Rustenburg, to dispose of the corpse.
MR BOTHA: You say you assumed that it was the corpse of the deceased, of Mr Ntehelang. Did you ask any questions at that stage and was it allowed to ask any questions at that stage?
MR SNYDERS: No, I did not ask questions, it was not the policy to ask questions under those circumstances and I would have never questioned instructions from my seniors, I would just execute my orders.
MR BOTHA: Did you play any part in the assault or torture of the deceased as it is described by Mr van Heerden before this Commission?
MR SNYDERS: I don't know of any tube that had taken place, I didn't know there was a tube in the canteen. I myself never tubed Ntehelang.
MR BOTHA: And as you have already stated in your evidence and in your statement, did you observe any assaults from any other person?
MR SNYDERS: No, Chairperson, I did not see him being assaulted after I left the canteen. When I returned I saw that he was not there anymore and I assumed that he was dead.
MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
ADV SANDI: Sorry, can you just repeat this. When you came back you say that there was this thing that was wrapped up in the blanket, you didn't ask what is this?
MR SNYDERS: No, as I've already said, Chairperson, I did not ask questions, I assumed that it had to be the man who had been assaulted in the canteen.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on record, we have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Booyens.
Mr Snyders, I would just like to clear up a few aspects with you. On page 265 you say the askari arrived - that's in the second paragraph.
"At approximately 19H00, one of the askaris arrived there."
Can you recall how he arrived there? I know he walked, but was he brought there or did he come there on his own?
MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, I am not certain. It is not certain whether somebody brought him there or whether he came there by himself. I can just recall he arrived at the canteen.
MR BOOYENS: Now you have possibly heard what I put what Mr Bellingan said, what his role was, he said the askari told him - he found him in the canteen and he said he had lost his firearm. Is it possible that this discussion had taken place?
MR SNYDERS: It is possible, yes.
MR BOOYENS: And that he, Bellingan, then took the person to Maj de Kock.
MR SNYDERS: That is possible, yes.
MR BOOYENS: Just one aspect which is not clear in evidence. What was wrapped in the blanket, did it take on the form of a human body, could you see it was a human body?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: And with what you had seen happened earlier, you drew the inference, it was not necessary to ask any questions.
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: And you have also heard that I put it that Messrs Bellingan, Baker and Tait said that they had all walked out of the canteen when the questioning and assault started. Can you dispute that?
MR SNYDERS: I cannot recall that any of them assaulted the man, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: And actually more than that, are you in a position to say - well according to your evidence you are not, because you were not in the vicinity when the assault took place, so they could have been outside, you don't know?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, I would not know.
MR BOOYENS: Very well. If you could assist us with one aspect. When you returned and the person was lying in the blanket, as I understood my instructions, Baker, Bellingan and Tait were not in the canteen at that stage. Are you in a position to say that they were there or not there?
MR SNYDERS: I cannot recall pertinently, but I cannot say who was there and who was not there.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Rossouw on record.
Mr Snyders, I would just like to address one aspect with you. You've already made the concession in your evidence-in-chief that you may be mistaken about the people whom you said were at Vlakplaas, and my instructions are to put it to you that Mr Willie Nortje was not at Vlakplaas that evening. Will you accord with that?
MR SNYDERS: It is possible, I cannot recall that I saw him there.
MR ROSSOUW: So where you mention him in your statement on page 265 at the bottom of the page, that may be a mistake?
MR SNYDERS: That's possible, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair, Cornelius on behalf of van Heerden and Flores.
Captain, can you think of any reason why Mr van Heerden would implicate you in this matter?
MR SNYDERS: No, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Because he says when he came in you were busy tubing the deceased.
MR SNYDERS: As I have said Chairperson, at no stage did I tube the man. It is possible that Mr van Heerden may have had more to drink than he realised and he may have seen me for somebody else, it was many years ago and it is impossible for me to tube the man all by myself anyway.
MR CORNELIUS: You said that you searched the deceased and found the money on him.
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you ask him what he was doing with so much money?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, we asked him many things, but at no stage did he answer.
MR CORNELIUS: But you searched him, that was before you reported to Mr de Kock, did you ask him what was he doing with so much money?
MR SNYDERS: I asked him, yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And what did he say?
MR SNYDERS: He did not give any answer to that.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell Mr de Kock that you found this money on him?
MR SNYDERS: I believe I would have told him, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And while you and de Kock were questioning him you would have asked about the money?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And this money, you say you believed that you left it on the counter?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Do you think it was a wise manner to do that, to put money on the counter at a full bar?
MR SNYDERS: I think all of us were people of the same unit and I think we trusted each other. It was a private bar as well.
MR CORNELIUS: You say it was clear to you that the man had sold the firearm, what brought you to this insight?
MR SNYDERS: As I have said, I weighed up two options. Firstly, he could have possibly sold the firearm, that's where the money came from and secondly, that he might have robbed someone with the firearm, that's where the money came from, and then disposed of the firearm.
MR CORNELIUS: But it was necessary for you to verify this by means of questioning?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You say you did not participate in the questioning?
MR SNYDERS: I participated in the questioning, but not in the assault.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you see who did the tubing?
MR SNYDERS: No, Chairperson, I don't know of any tube that was in that canteen.
MR CORNELIUS: But were you present during the assault?
MR SNYDERS: As I've already said Chairperson, I went out - after the questioning I went out and called my wife.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. On page 265 of your application, the second last paragraph, you said
"Later I received a report from one van der Westhuizen from Military Intelligence, which says that informants of Military Intelligence saw the askari in Mozambique and that he had returned to the ANC."
Is that correct?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: This askaris who is being referred to, is that Moses Ntehelang?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, that's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And this information came to your knowledge after his death?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: When you acted and you searched him and you conveyed the information to Col de Kock, what was your political motivation?
MR SNYDERS: I don't understand.
MR CORNELIUS: What was your reason for questioning him and assaulting him, what was your intention?
MR SNYDERS: The intention first and foremost, was to find out what he had done with the firearm. And as I have said in my application, we had information which was not confirmed, but afterwards we had information that he was working with the ANC and it was the further interrogation, to find out whether he had been in contact with the ANC.
MR CORNELIUS: So you felt that the Unit Vlakplaas was endangered by his actions?
MR SNYDERS: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: It was important to find out wasn't it, what he could have told anybody about Vlakplaas?
MR SNYDERS: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Because we've been told that he was away for a month, he could have told everything he knew, couldn't he?
MR SNYDERS: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chair. Jansen on behalf of Ras, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Snyders, what eventually happened with the money?
MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, I never thought about the money again. From there we went and buried the man and I returned and I never thought about what happened to the money.
MR SIBANYONI: So up to today you don't know what happened to the money?
MR SNYDERS: No.
MR SIBANYONI: We have been hearing this information that usually when the Vlakplaas team was out on an operation, when you returned, either there would be a braai and some function where people would be drinking. Were there any teetotallers, any people who didn't partake in liquor, at Vlakplaas?
MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, it's possible, but I cannot think of anyone now who - I can recall that Steve Bosch drank very little, less than any of us, but I cannot recall if any of them did not drink at all.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: Could you just give us names of the people you saw assaulting this man.
MR SNYDERS: Chairperson, I only saw that Col de Kock assaulted the man with the pool cue and from there I left the canteen, and when I returned the man was dead.
ADV SANDI: The assault by Mr de Kock, how long did that take?
MR SNYDERS: For the time period when I was there, approximately 10 to 15 minutes that we questioned him, but I may be mistaken, Chairperson, it was a very long time ago.
ADV SANDI: Is that to say that he was - you were asking him questions and he was assaulting him?
MR SNYDERS: No, I stood there, Col de Kock also put questions, it was not an organised questioning.
ADV SANDI: Is there any reason why you did not take part in the assault of this man?
MR SNYDERS: Yes, I did not want to take a hand and participate in where Col de Kock was busy with the questioning.
ADV SANDI: Did you agree with the assault on the deceased?
MR SNYDERS: At that stage yes, I felt that we had to obtain information from him as quickly as possible, because Vlakplaas was left unprotected, there was no security at Vlakplaas, we were all in a very difficult position. If the man had disclosed information about us, our lives would have been in danger.
ADV SANDI: Should I understand that to mean that you agreed with the assault and torture on this man, right from the beginning to the end?
MR SNYDERS: I agreed with the assault insofar as to obtain information from him and that is as far as it went.
ADV SANDI: Is there any stage at which you did not agree with the assault or any kind of violence on him?
MR SNYDERS: The time period when I was in the canteen, the assault that had taken place there was not to such an extent and so serious that he could have died of the assault.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR BOTHA: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA
WITNESS EXCUSED
