MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wish to call with your leave, Mr Flores.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Flores, are you Afrikaans or English speaking?
MR FLORES: English.
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names for the record please.
LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr Flores, you're an applicant in this matter and you've brought an application, a Form 1, in terms of Section 18 of the Act and presented at the ...(indistinct), is that correct?
MR FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: At all times you were employed by the SAP and you're an applicant in terms of Section 20(2)(a) and Section 20(2)(f) of the act, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At the time of this incident you were stationed at the Unit Vlakplaas, as fully described in Annexure C, which is already before this Committee, and you served under the command of Col de Kock, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Do you confirm the general background of your application and the merits of the application as before this Committee?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At all times you carried out the instructions of Col Eugene de Kock?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Now we have the general background on what this day. At a certain time when you returned, you were with the other members at the unit canteen at Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you consume alcohol that day?
MR FLORES: Yes, I did, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Were you present when the victim, Moses Ntehelang was brought into the canteen?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Chairperson what happened from the moment he came into the canteen.
MR FLORES: Yes. Mr Chairperson, at that stage when the deceased was brought into the canteen, he reported to Col de Kock at that stage that his weapon had been lost in some or other shebeen in Laudium.
MR CORNELIUS: Fine. Was he then assaulted by Col de Kock?
MR FLORES: After Col de Kock had a few words with him, he struck him with a pool cue, uttered some more words and then Col de Kock left the canteen, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: What did the other members do then?
MR FLORES: At that stage, on Col de Kock leaving the canteen, numerous members like swooped down on Mr Ntehelang and started beating him. At that stage I also left the canteen, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you at that stage participate in the assault yourself?
MR FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Fine. When you were outside the canteen, did you hear anything?
MR FLORES: Yes, at that stage outside the canteen, I heard at that stage Lt Snyders talking to Col de Kock, where Col de Kock mentioned to Lt Snyders that the deceased had for some time been a suspect of leaking out information to the ANC as such. With that I went to have a look what was going on in the canteen again.
MR CORNELIUS: Fine. I see you say in your amnesty application
"Lt Piet Snyders, if I recall correctly ..."
Are you in doubt about the person he was speaking to?
MR FLORES: I beg your pardon?
MR CORNELIUS: Are you in doubt that it might have been somebody else and not Piet Snyders? Because in your application I see you say
"... if I recall correctly."
MR FLORES: That's correct, that's correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: When you went back into the canteen, what did you see then?
MR FLORES: I saw - when peeking back into the canteen, I saw Mr Dries van Heerden and Piet Botha kneeling over Mr Ntehelang, I then went closer to have a closer inspection.
MR CORNELIUS: What did you see?
MR FLORES: I noticed blood coming out of the nose and ears and mouth of Mr Ntehelang and the manner in which he was lying at that stage, Mr Chairperson, he was very motionless. At that stage if he was unconscious or dead at that time, I could not say, but I then left the canteen.
MR CORNELIUS: And when you went out the canteen, what did you go and do then?
MR FLORES: I approached Steve Bosch and asked him to get a blanket and a nylon cord or piece of rope for me.
MR CORNELIUS: I see. Did you receive any instructions then from Col de Kock, what to do?
MR FLORES: At that stage someone else reported to Col de Kock, as they were a couple of yards behind me, that Ntehelang had - was dead. I then took the blanket and the cord and rolled Mr Ntehelang in the blanket and tied him down with the cord in the blanket.
MR CORNELIUS: I see. What did you do then with the body?
MR FLORES: At that stage, while doing that, I was approached by Lt Snyders, who informed me that the instructions from Col de Kock came that we had to load the deceased into Lt Snyders' boot of his vehicle.
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Flores, what was your rank at that time?
MR FLORES: I was a Sergeant at that time, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: I see. Now I presume that this was done very secretly, not as to inform other askaris, or not?
MR FLORES: That is correct, the loading of the corpse at that stage, because there were guards on the farm and obviously we would not want the word to come out that Mr Ntehelang had been accidentally killed as such.
MR CORNELIUS: You then left Vlakplaas, what happened then?
MR FLORES: That's correct. I was then given instructions to accompany Col de Kock, Lt Snyders and Martiens Ras, there was another person as my statement says, I couldn't recall who it was but as we've heard now, it was Mr Willemse, to escort them somewhere in the Western Transvaal, to dispose of the corpse.
MR CORNELIUS: And you went to a farm in Zeerust area, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: I think it's common cause that a shallow grave was dug and he was buried.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: I see on page 116 you say that there was an attempt to burn the body as well, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You then returned and there was no further enquiries about Mr Ntehelang after that, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: At the time, did you receive - did you have any personal grievance against Mr Ntehelang?
MR FLORES: Nothing at all, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you obviously didn't received any rewards for your participation?
MR FLORES: Nothing at all, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you apply for as far as you were involved, for amnesty as accessory and obviously being on the scene.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR CORNELIUS: ... to the murder of Ntehelang.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: It seems to me if you say "accidentally", it doesn't seem to me that there was an intention to kill originally.
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, if I go according to the evidence I've listened to, from Mr van Heerden, I don't think it was any intention of anyone at that stage to kill Mr Ntehelang, so it's just - that's how I personally just saw it.
MR CORNELIUS: There's an affidavit here of a certain Mr Lugg, is he present as a witness?
MR FLORES: I'm not sure if he's here, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: I see he implicates - in this application tries to implicate that you partook in this assault. Is that so?
MR FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
ADV SANDI: Can you just explain one thing, Mr Flores. With the exception of Mr de Kock, did you see anyone else assaulting the deceased?
MR FLORES: If I understood your question correctly, Mr Chairperson, yes, I only saw, the time when I peeked in, Mr Botha and Mr van Heerden.
ADV SANDI: Was there anyone around whilst Mr Botha and van Heerden were assaulting the deceased?
MR FLORES: I cannot recall, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: How were they assaulting him?
MR FLORES: At that stage, Mr Chairperson, I only saw them kneeling down on Mr Ntehelang's body. As to what they were doing at that stage, I was not aware of what they were doing.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, that's not very clear to me. You only saw what, the kneeling down?
MR FLORES: The kneeling down over him. I would suggest, most probably in the way of how they were describing how they were tubing the person.
ADV SANDI: Who was doing the kneeling down?
MR FLORES: I beg your pardon?
ADV SANDI: Who was kneeling over the body of ...
MR FLORES: Both persons were down.
ADV SANDI: Were they assisting each other to assault ...(intervention)
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, when I put in closer inspection, they were obviously not tubing him because I could notice the blood coming out of his mouth ears and nose, as I've explained.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR FLORES: Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: How much blood, was it running freely or just trickling?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, if I could describe I'd say trickling.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on record, we have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR BOOYENS: Booyens, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman.
Mr Flores, just one aspect. You said that you asked Mr Bosch to get the blanket and the nylon cord.
MR FLORES: That is correct, I did mention that, Mr Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now my instructions are that Mr Bosch can't remember that. I'm not in dispute with you about that, can you perhaps just help me. Did you perhaps indicate to him where he should get the blanket and the nylon cord from?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, yes, why I said Mr Bosch is because at that stage he was away from the canteen and Mr Bosch had his own office because he was on the Technical Services side of the unit and to my recollection I did definitely ask Mr Bosch.
MR ROSSOUW: Yes, no, no, I just make it clear, I'm not disputing with you, I'm just telling you that my instructions are Mr Bosch can't remember that.
I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
MR BOTHA: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Jansen, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've just got one question.
Sir, as I understand you correctly, you only saw two people assaulting the deceased, am I right?
MR FLORES: At that stage, that's correct, Mr Chairperson.
ADV STEENKAMP: And those two people were Botha and van Heerden?
MR FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
ADV STEENKAMP: On page 164 of your amnesty application, paragraph 3, I'll read for you
"As Maj de Kock was leaving the canteen, some members just swooped down on Ntehelang. He was being kicked, hit and even at one stage picked up and smashed to the ground."
Do you see that?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Who did this?
MR FLORES: That was Mr Piet Botha.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe describe, who were the other members swooping down on the deceased?
MR FLORES: I didn't as such - I most probably misinterpreted myself there, but the actual hitting and assaulting of the person, Mr Chairperson, was only those two members I mentioned. The picking up and throwing down of the person I recall correctly as ...(indistinct), was Mr Piet Botha.
ADV STEENKAMP: And the kicking and the hitting of the deceased, who did this?
MR FLORES: That was Mr Piet Botha and Mr van Heerden.
ADV STEENKAMP: So Mr van Heerden also participated in kicking and hitting the deceased?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
ADV STEENKAMP: Right. Can you remember who were all the members in the canteen, can you give us a short list? Can you remember who all the - who were all the other people there, while the deceased was assaulted by these two members?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, all the people in the canteen, it's going to be difficult because there was, at least 90% of the unit was there if I recall correctly. I at one stage thought Mr Nortje was there, and as we heard he wasn't present. I'm scared to mention names, who was there and who wasn't there.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Flores, none of the applicants who testified before you spoke about blood, you are the only one to tell us about blood. Was this blood clearly visible?
MR FLORES: Yes, Mr Chairperson, if I recall correctly, the mouth in the mouth, very visible, by the nose, reasonably visible and by the ears, trickling, but not -you could see there was blood coming from the ears, yes.
MR SIBANYONI: Do you perhaps know what caused this blood?
MR FLORES: I would not like to elaborate - I was not present, so I could speculate, but I couldn't pinpoint.
MR ROSSOUW: Did the deceased sustain any other injuries?
MR FLORES: That was all, only what was visible at that time, Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: You said this person was buried in a shallow grave.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR SIBANYONI: ... next to Zeerust. Was this shallow grave ever pointed out at any stage? Do you perhaps know?
MR FLORES: I have no clue, Mr Chairperson, I'm not sure.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
ADV SANDI: Would you be able to remember this shallow grave if you would have to go back there today?
MR FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Why did you not take part in the assault on this man?
MR FLORES: I think, Mr Chairperson, at that point in time I felt half guilty because I was the responsible member who had to take in Mr Ntehelang's weapon on the previous deployment, on returning back from a deployment and I didn't collect his firearm as such.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, that's not very clear to me. You felt guilty?
MR FLORES: Did use the wrong word "guilty"? Yes, it was my - I was supposed to take in his weapon and the whole incident that sparked off the assault as such was the weapon, so in a certain way yes, it was due the fact that I didn't take in the weapon that sparked off the whole incident.
ADV SANDI: When were you supposed to have taken the weapon from him?
MR FLORES: When you deploy with your group, Mr Chairperson, on returning back to the unit the members who stayed at Vlakplaas had to hand in their weapons and I had to take in their weapons and hand them in for safekeeping. On the previous return of deployment I did not take in his weapon as such.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: ... questions arising from your statement. You there say how the drinking you did on the way back from the border post, the Oshoek border post, and you said that by the time you hit Erasmia the majority of the member were well intoxicated.
MR FLORES: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You confirm that. And that after you opened the canteen and the party continued, you were totally intoxicated as were many others.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was then that the askari, the deceased, entered the canteen and you could see that he had been drinking as well.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he give the impression of being drunk?
MR FLORES: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the report was made that he'd been robbed of his money and his official pistol.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: How soon after that did Maj de Kock hit him for the first time?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I think Maj de Kock at that stage first uttered some more words with him and then suddenly just hit him with the pool cue and uttered more words and just left the canteen.
CHAIRPERSON: It was very quick?
MR FLORES: Yes, very quick.
CHAIRPERSON: And I think - I don't know if you noticed, or were able to see, Maj de Kock has told us that he had knocked him down before he left the canteen. That after he'd hit him with the billiard cue, he then hit him on the face or somewhere, he slapped him.
MR FLORES: That could be possible, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were asked questions about whether you'd be able to point out where the body had been buried, I think one of your other colleagues knew the farm.
MR FLORES: I recall that's correct, Mr Chairman, Mr Ras.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ras knew the farm, spoke to the farmer. You didn't know, it was a strange place to you?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Ras did know and should be able to find it.
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Because the farmer knew you had come there and buried a body there.
MR FLORES: I don't know if he phoned him on that specific incident, but I afterwards did recall - we have heard that Mr Ras had frequented that farm on various occasions.
CHAIRPERSON: He had disposed of a body there before, hadn't he?
MR FLORES: What we believe, yes. That's correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thanks Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR FLORES: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
