MR BOOYENS: I call Mr Bellingan, Mr Chair.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Bellingan, English or Afrikaans?
MR BELLINGAN: Afrikaans please.
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names for the purposes of the record.
WILHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, my attorney has placed in front of the Committee, for the same reason as mentioned before, just an better schedule, Schedule 8, which may contain minor amendments and corrections of spelling mistakes.
CHAIRPERSON: Page what is it?
MR BOOYENS: That will be page ...
CHAIRPERSON: 226?
EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: 226.
Mr Bellingan, your application commences on page 209 and runs up to and including page 226, or 225 at least. That contains your background which you have given evidence about on previous occasions. Do you request that this, or do you confirm this?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: And do you request that this be incorporated with your evidence?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: With regard to this specific incident you have heard the evidence of your colleague, Mr Baker.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And let us begin with the canteen at Vlakplaas and what took place there. Did the deceased come to you?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct. I believe, if I recall correctly, that we stood outside the canteen and that Const Steven Nobela came to us and said that Moses or "Geeletjies" as we called him, had lost his firearm and if I recall correctly, I led him into the canteen and I told him we had to report this to the Major and I took him to Col de Kock, who was in the canteen.
MR BOOYENS: And were then part of the discussion which took place between him and Maj de Kock?
MR BELLINGAN: No, Chairperson, I stood aside. The guys in the bar were playing snooker and darts and they were having drinks, so I basically moved in and around there. I heard a blow and then I saw Mr de Kock hitting him with something, but I cannot recall.
MR BOOYENS: Can you specifically recall a snooker cue?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I can recall that Col de Kock had something in his hands which looked like a snooker cue.
MR BOOYENS: And then what did you do?
MR BELLINGAN: I went outside because I didn't agree with what was happening there, I didn't think that these were the appropriate circumstances. I went and stood outside under the cover near the braai area.
MR BOOYENS: I will put the versions of evidence that have been given by Mr van Heerden to you. He states that you went to fetch an inner tube, with the purpose of tubing the deceased, to use the general term. Is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, I did not fetch the inner tube, I did not participate in the assault, but I did observe that there was some form of assault taking place and I did not go and fetch the inner tube or participate in that assault.
MR BOOYENS: Then the other version is that while Piet Snyders tubed the man, you interrogated him.
MR BELLINGAN: No.
MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with this assault?
MR BELLINGAN: No, I did not have anything to do with the assault of the death.
MR BOOYENS: And at a stage during the assault, you left the room, is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: Can you recall whether or not you saw this tubing at all?
MR BELLINGAN: I may have seen it, but I cannot recall today who sat on him or who held the tube over his face, all I know is that they were busy with him there, these members who were involved.
MR BOOYENS: And that is when you left the room.
MR BELLINGAN: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: And did you also leave later on?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I didn't leave immediately, but a short while later I moved away on my own.
MR BOOYENS: And Mr Bellingan tell me, did you know that evening whether the man had died and that his body would be taken away or did you only come to hear of this the following morning?
MR BELLINGAN: It may have been that someone told us there that evening that Moses was dead, but I didn't know what they were going to do with the body. The next day there were mutterings among the members and that is when I heard that he had died and that they had gone to bury the body somewhere in the Western Transvaal.
MR BOOYENS: You did not interfere with the assault, you did not attempt to put an end to the assault?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: What was your rank?
MR BELLINGAN: In 1989 I think I was a Warrant Officer.
MR BOOYENS: And you did not report this incident afterwards?
MR BELLINGAN: No.
MR BOOYENS: You have heard your colleague, Mr Baker's answer on a question which was put by the Honourable Chairperson about the tradition that existed at Vlakplaas, this tradition of silence and not saying anything about these incidents?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Do you agree with this?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: So very simply, the attitude was not to talk about anything that took place at Vlakplaas, because this could be detrimental to an operation?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Or even to elaborate, that which Vlakplaas' people were doing.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, there was a policy of in the one ear and out the other, no-one ever spoke about it.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there another reason? The fact that anyone who spoke about activities at Vlakplaas, their life would be in danger?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, it was a policy, no-one would speak about it because if you were a member of a unit and you spoke out about it, something could happen to you. But we were all so firmly entrenched in our membership of these groups that no-one spoke about it, we were protecting State interests. It was almost like an oath.
MR BOOYENS: And do you confirm the rest of your application?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct?
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR SIBANYONI: Isn't it so that you would not speak about the cross-border operations, the attack on liberation movements and the like, but about an incident like this one, in which you said you had to move out because you didn't think it was justified, was it not possible to tell the Head, Engelbrecht, Brig Schoon or anyone of them?
MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, it was just a policy, one would never be insubordinate to one's superior. One would see what happened and one might not have agreed or condoned what took place, but it was like a movie that had finished. That was just the way things happened, that was how we were, we would never speak out about it, we would never run to the commander and tell stories, it was finished, it was a closed chapter.
MR SIBANYONI: Was it not possible for you if you felt that this was not justified, to approach Mr de Kock and try to stop him from assaulting the deceased?
MR BELLINGAN: Mr de Kock and I got along very well, although - we spent quite a few years living together and I may have said to him outside "Gee, can't we just relax about this". I may have said something to him, but it was a very emotional moment. This may have happened, but the deed was already done. But I would never have gone to a senior and said "Col Eugene is involved in this and that and he did this and that", that's just the way it was, I was just one of those people who didn't speak about it, when it was over it was over.
MR SIBANYONI: Was it possible for you to intervene on the spot when he was assaulting ...(intervention)
MR BELLINGAN: No, Chairperson, I think that anyone in his right mind would not stick his nose into this kind of business, one would just leave it at that and let nature take its course.
MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason, why not?
MR BELLINGAN: I don't know, Chairperson, I cannot say with clarity. I just never would have interfered in that. Perhaps one was afraid that something might happen to oneself, I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: We got the picture here that Mr de Kock apparently lost his temper and hit this man a few times with a cue and then stormed out of the canteen himself and there were no junior officers participating in what appears to have been a prolonged assault on the deceased. Surely you could have interfered in that and told these chaps to cool it?
MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, I did not interfere. I think at that stage I was already outside as well.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record.
Mr Bellingan, you were a founder-member of Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: In 1981 when the unit was established there for the very first time, you were connected to it.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you served under various commanders at Vlakplaas.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you were closely involved with the askaris who from the very beginning formed part of Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Now you have heard the evidence indicating that there was a counter-insurgency capacity which was established at Vlakplaas.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And did you know about it?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, because I was a group leader in Col de Kock's time, we group leaders would have been called in by Col de Kock and he would have told us that we would have to monitor some of the members of the liberation movements who had defected to us, or the askaris, because it may happen that seeing as he had turned on his former liberation colleagues, he may turn on us and we were all tasked to monitor our respective groups and to ensure that there weren't any possible double-agents. And also furthermore, double-agents' names were mentioned to me.
MR HATTINGH: You were connected with Vlakplaas from 1981, but you were not there all the time.
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, from 1985, for eight months to a year I was at the International Desk.
MR HATTINGH: And while you were there did you experience any such problems that you just mentioned now, with the askaris?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, Chairperson, we had a member who left Vlakplaas in the early 80s and went back to the ANC. After that there were more of them who defected, so we had such experiences.
MR HATTINGH: And was that the reason why they were monitored?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: As a group leader you had direct liaison with the askaris.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And just to clarify the point once more, the askaris were divided into groups and placed under the command of a permanent Police Force member of Vlakplaas and as such they were deployed to identify terrorists in certain areas.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you were one such a group leader?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: You were not necessarily the only police member who worked in such a fashion, there may have been others who served with you in a group?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And in this manner you had very close co-operation with the askaris.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Now can you give us examples of how the askaris may have appeared not to be completely loyal towards Vlakplaas?
MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, once there was a case at the Research Desk, which was brought to us, indicating that there were two askaris who were in Mafikeng who were supposed to be monitoring infiltration of MK members and they did not do their jobs properly and that was an indication to us of a lack of loyalty or perhaps that they were looking the other way.
It happened from time to time, that when they arrived in Nelspruit there was a certain Warrant Officer in the Security Branch there, who immediately would invite them for a braai and there was alcohol involved and then they would say where everybody was working, were all the groups had been deployed to.
Later on we would also pick up much of the information telephonically and what we would do is tell them that we were going to Nelspruit and then the following morning when they reported there, we would rather go to Zeerust. Because then they would already have informed their girlfriends and friends in that area by telephone. So we wanted to know who was handling them on behalf of the ANC or the PAC. So we had such cases.
MR HATTINGH: The police officer in Nelspruit, did you later determine that he was connected to the ANC?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, that is correct, he defected to the ANC in Swaziland and joined them.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now with regard to Mr Ntehelang, in the course of action did you collect any information about him?
MR BELLINGAN: No, I didn't, but Mr de Kock told me that some of the people were under suspicion because they were allowing liberation fighters to move past without any identification and that placed them under suspicion. And the situation deteriorated because there was a lot of uncertainty in his mind about what exactly was going on.
MR HATTINGH: And for that reason, did you watch him a bit more closely?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I would have told a black Warrant Officer to keep an eye on him and to take him under his wing perhaps, and to monitor him. That was a possibility.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now just with regard to the incident itself, Mr Bellingan. You heard that some of the witnesses said that Mr de Kock told them to be there that evening. Did you also hear such an order?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, usually after an operation, Mr de Kock - well this operation had actually gone all awry, so we were there earlier and we thought we would take the time to have a braai and have a few drinks and relax. So that may have been the order for him to tell us to stay there. I didn't think it strange, although after the time I left and he did not admonish me for it at all.
MR HATTINGH: I have just lost my place. Mr Snyders who testified about this, states in his affidavit on page 265, or rather at the bottom of 264
"On the journey back the whole group consumed quite a bit of alcohol. When we arrived at Vlakplaas we braaied meat and again we had drinks. I didn't drink much because I was supposed to entertain guests at my home that evening. Capt du Plessis and I asked Mr de Kock, the Commander of Vlakplaas, at approximately six thirty whether we could be excused and Capt du Plessis mentioned that he still had to complete an essay for his studies. De Kock refused."
And then in the following paragraph he states:
"At approximately 7 o'clock one of the askaris, whose name I forget, arrived at the canteen."
Something that I just want to clarify. The fact that you had to be present there didn't have anything whatsoever to do with the incident which was to take place later.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: In fact, the order which was issued for you to be there was issued before you even knew that such an incident would take place.
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, it was earlier that afternoon or late during the afternoon.
MR HATTINGH: And when you say that you did not agree that these were the appropriate circumstances, do you mean that the time was not right? The time for an interrogation was not right.
MR BELLINGAN: That, Chairperson, and furthermore it was not the usual procedure in handling someone who stated that he had lost his firearm and who could possibly still be working for the liberation movements, it wasn't the right way to go about it because we had a policy, Mr de Kock condoned this police, that if alcohol was involved one couldn't really get much work done.
MR HATTINGH: Do you mean to say that action would have been taken against Mr Ntehelang, but in your opinion it should have taken place the following day under more sober circumstances?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, that is how it should have been.
MR HATTINGH: Did you see Mr de Kock exit the canteen after you saw him hit Mr Ntehelang with something?
MR BELLINGAN: I cannot recall that, all I know is that I did see him outside later on.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: I take it if somebody had - if an askari had reverted and had then come back to try to infiltrate you, it would be important to find out as much as you could about what he had told anybody, who he had associated with and matters of that nature.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson, that is why Sgt Bosch was the key point along with Maj de Kock. All the information we received would have gone to them and they would form a picture as to who was involved where and why.
CHAIRPERSON: And questioning should be done in a calm methodical manner to obtain all that information and that's what you felt.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Not in the middle of a drunken party?
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Rossouw.
Mr Bellingan, may I just ask a few questions of you with regard to the evidence that you had give that persons who were at Vlakplaas would let incidents like this enter in the one ear and exit from the other ear. Evidence was led yesterday that persons who worked at Vlakplaas were sought out by hand as such, do you know of that?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, Chairperson, but we also looked at some of the whites, it was not that we only looked at the askaris. There may have been eyes on me to see if I was up to something, because Col de Kock was an excellent Intelligence officer, he would not have only looked at the askaris, he would have looked at everybody. One could be a very good policeman and when he comes to us he might take the wrong path, so there was looked at some of the whites as well.
MR ROSSOUW: What I want to know from you, Mr Bellingan is, let us look at the white members, the officers and the junior officers, let us call it the group who were present in the canteen or around the canteen. Is it not so that those people sought out by hand and selected and were background checks on them done?
MR BELLINGAN: I don't know, Chairperson, I cannot comment on that. I differed with some of the people there and I would not want to launch personal attacks on those people, but it was not my prerogative to decide who was to be there and who was not to be there.
MR ROSSOUW: but the point that I want to know from you is the person who went to Vlakplaas were persons who could be trusted, who were chosen specifically because they could protect the identity of the clandestine units at Vlakplaas, they had to live up to that expectation.
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I think so, Chairperson. I don't think - the State did not do much to look at these types of investigations, the black and white members on the farm, we were just left to our own devices. It ended up that good work fell flat in a short period of time and people did things there that they would not have done normally. T
here were many good policemen at Vlakplaas and the State did not look at us properly, the group leaders and Col de Kock, we were just left to our devices, we will go on and as the English man will say "the men are okay". Some of them were really good people. I think afterwards some of them went bad and it was tragic to see it.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you feel that the persons who were there with you would at the least maintain secrecy about the clandestine operations at Vlakplaas?
MR BELLINGAN: That's true, at Vlakplaas you kept quiet, it was an ethical code. Whoever recruited you, when you got there you had to keep quiet about it. But I cannot say what went on in another person's mind and how this incident affected him that evening.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: What people were selected for to go to Vlakplaas for was not to keep quiet about operations, but to conduct operations, weren't they?
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.
MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Botha, I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Cornelius on behalf of van Heerden and Flores.
Mr Bellingan, I would just like to point out important aspects in your application. I will take you to page 2 and 3 of your original application. At the end of the first paragraph, it's the last long paragraph:
"We were proud of what we had done because the politicians and our seniors commended us on that. "Daar was verdagtes ondervra sonder dat ons omgee of hy sterf of nie, so lank ons net die skuldiges aan die pen kon laat ry."
Nou dit was in ...(tussenbeide)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what page?
MR CORNELIUS: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, it's page 213. You will note there's a lengthy paragraph, at the end of the first lengthy paragraph, the last five sentences, Mr Chair.
This was in 1980, with the SWAPO war, is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: No, that was just my introduction, where I gave a general overview and that was the whole picture that I gave there. It was to say how the politicians visited us at the border and at Vlakplaas. We were so motivated, it did not matter what happened. If a suspected died in detention or on the way to police office or in the office, we did not speak about it. And this was just the background that I gave here.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but what is important is important for your application as well, these were your subjective thoughts, that one had to obtain information at all costs?
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And I refer you to page 216, the second paragraph. Mr Chair, folio 215, the second paragraph. You mention that
"Dirk Coetzee had taught us that we had to at all costs try to prevent that askaris become involved in court cases."
Can you recall that?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, unnecessary shooting incidents, unnecessary policing functions in the public, but sometimes the Research Desk came to the farm and said, I have said previously, we need person X to testify in a matter in Newcastle, and then they would have him testify in camera and as you know "in camera" he may as well testify in public. So we tried to keep the askaris out of these matters, so that we do not expose them to the normal public and police.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and a worse situation was if an askari laid any charges?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, that's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And if you look at the same page, the second last paragraph, you tell the history of the Mnisi brothers and what is important is that these were two askaris who turned around and went back to the ANC, is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And according to your recollection, both the Mnisi brothers were involved in controversial matters.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you say that the one Mnisi brother joined the Special Operations Division of the ANC.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And that he was involved in the Church Street bomb.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And the other Mnisi brother was involved with regard to the murder of W/O Philip Selepe.
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: But the passage which is important to me, on page 217 you say
"Chris worked closely with the particular Warrant Officer and knew his movements."
Is that correct?
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson. Let us say W/O Selepe was in Security Branch Northern Transvaal, he lived in Mamelodi and Chris knew him well because at that time we closely liaised with the local Security Branch there.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. So if an askari would turn and with this intimate knowledge, go to the Special Operations Division of the ANC, it would have fatal consequences for members of Vlakplaas.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson, you could not keep them away from the normal policeman at all, that was one of the things which we never wanted to allow, that some of them visited some other members' house, but we could not entirely prevent it. We could not prevent members visiting other members houses.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but the point is that he had valuable information.
MR BELLINGAN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: When you were a group leader during this time, did you know Moses Ntehelang?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes. I cannot say with certainty whether he always worked in my group, but I knew him, I can still picture his face before me.
MR CORNELIUS: And when you trained him in the handling of firearms - and to cut the question short, if he had lost his firearm like in this particular incident, was this a serious offence?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, if he went to the classes I would have mentioned it to him along with the other members, and it's a serious offence.
MR CORNELIUS: So the evening when he reported to you, you saw it as a very serious matter?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I saw it as a very serious matter, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we have been told that after the last operation he was on, his firearm should have been handed in and that the officer responsible was negligent in not taking it.
MR BELLINGAN: That may be so, Chairperson. The group leader as myself for example, and he was in my group, there would be instructions in the service register and it would be said there I have to take his firearm and put it in my container, so I cannot say who was the person he worked with but that was an instruction until he can prove that he is reliable with a firearm.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So he shouldn't have been walking around with a gun, it wasn't that he had illegally taken it from somewhere. In fact it had negligently been left with him.
MR BELLINGAN: It's possible, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And I refer you to page 221 of the amnesty application, it is also an important aspect with regard to your subjective thought. You say
"It repetitively happened that Vlakplaas lost askaris who returned to the ANC and PAC and it was mentioned that there are definitely persons amongst us who are sleeping agents and these people could attack us and place motor bombs at head office and attack members and their houses. Col de Kock also told us that we had instructions from head office to sort this out and eliminate these."
MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: So you were looking for askaris who wanted to turn?
MR BELLINGAN: Yes, Chairperson, there was a stage when we were very concerned because no landmines were placed on the farm and there were no attacks on the farm and we were just asking ourselves, don't they have any moles amongst our members? And that is why Col de Kock was adamant that we have to know what was going on, we have to think up methods to prevent this and have compartmentalisation, and if you say you are going to Zeerust, then you go to Nelspruit, to prevent them from saying where you went. It was at the stage that we experienced problems to find any of the liberation movement members who had infiltrated the country.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. And with the incident that particular evening, what was your rank?
MR BELLINGAN: I believe I was a Warrant Officer, Chairperson. I think I became a Warrant Officer in 1989.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you think of any reason why van Heerden is adamant that you fetched the tube?
MR BELLINGAN: I do not want to be embroiled in some dispute here, Chairperson, I don't think there's much love lost between the two of us and I don't think this is the forum to try and solve personal vendettas here, but if he says so, then he must believe it.
MR CORNELIUS: You say that you may have seen the tubing?
MR BELLINGAN: I cannot say with certainty, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you not recall, what is the problem?
MR BELLINGAN: I may have seen a blanket, I may have seen a red or black inner tube - not tyre, an inner tube. I cannot say with certainty, but I didn't do anything about and I did not assault him either, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you did not deem it necessary to report to Eugene de Kock or to take the matter any further?
MR BELLINGAN: No, Chairperson. Col de Kock knew what happened there, so it was not necessary to report to him.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Jansen, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Bellingan, just on a collateral issue. I'm referring you to the Johannes Mabotha incident, who was interrogated at Marble Hall. You and Mr de Kock went there to interrogate him, you took part in the torturing, is that so?
MR BELLINGAN: No, Chairperson, I did not participate there. I didn't apply there because I did not participate there. I know my legal representative told me that somebody implicated me, but I was not a participant there. We spoke to him, but I did not question him or interrogate as the allegation was, with the ice and those types of things.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, I don't have a question, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, just arising from Mr Sibanyoni's question to Mr Bellingan about the Mabotha incident. You may recall, Mr Chairman, that as far as the Mabotha incident is concerned, there was nothing on the papers beforehand and I think it came from the evidence of Chappies Klopper, and we read about it in the newspapers and Mr van der Merwe and I - I did appear and specifically indicate that Mr Bellingan denied his involvement. But that was - the first time he heard about it was when he read about it in the newspaper. So ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't an implicated party?
MR BOOYENS: He wasn't an implicated party on the papers ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: In that he was given - he wasn't given notice as an implicated party.
MR BOOYENS: He wasn't given notice, he read it in the papers, being the reliable papers. I've got no re-examination, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
