ON RESUMPTION
MR VISSER: May I then beg leave to call Brig Schoon to give evidence.
ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please?
MR SCHOON: Willem Frederick Schoon.
WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Schoon, on diverse occasions you have testified before the Amnesty Committee, is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And the cases regarding which you testified have been stipulated in Exhibit G under paragraph 1 thereof?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Your application can be found in the Bundle from page 128 to 141 and particularly from page 137 onwards, is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the content of your amnesty application as well as the content of Exhibit A which you have already confirmed on previous occasions as well as the content of Exhibit G which has been served to the Committee and do you request that that evidence be incorporated into your evidence here today?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Now in 1986, you were as we know from other evidence, the Head of C-Section at Security Head Office?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And as such you were also the Head of Vlakplaas which was C1 as it was known?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And Col de Kock served under your command?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Now, this morning we have heard in light of the evidence which was given by particularly Col Coetzee but also that of Colonels Pretorius and de Jager, that a meeting took place in Middelburg, Transvaal, is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you agree that during this meeting, the tremendous spate of terrorism and violence which at that stage was at the order of the day, was discussed in order to determine whether any actions could be launched in order to combat this?
MR SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Is it correct that you requested Col de Kock to attend the meeting?
MR SCHOON: Yes, I did.
MR VISSER: And is it also correct that it was your objective for an operation to be launched?
MR SCHOON: Yes, all indications were that this would have to take place.
MR VISSER: From page 3, paragraph 7, could you submit to the Committee?
MR SCHOON: I also arranged that members of the Intelligence Unit from the Security Branch, Soweto, would be present due to the fact that it was known to me that they had already achieved a high level of success by means of informers and agents in penetrating the MK structures in Swaziland.
MR VISSER: During this meeting in Middelburg, Mr Coetzee and Pretorius also tabled information which was information with regard to actions and activities of MK among others, MK Transvaal Machinery and then particularly September Machinery, is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you agree that the information which they have submitted to the Committee this morning, as you can recall, is the same information which was conveyed to you during the meeting?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Is it also correct that you received information from the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch which connected with the information conveyed by Coetzee?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And we have also heard this morning that during this meeting, you stated that if there were to be an action, if it was approved by Head Office, Col de Kock would be appointed as the Operational Commander of such an operation? Is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Then could you proceed from paragraph 12?
MR SCHOON: As a result of discussions between me and Gen van der Merwe, a meeting was arranged and held on the Friday before the action at Security Head Office in the office of Gen van der Merwe. If my memory serves me correctly, the following persons were present upon my request during the meeting - Col de Jager, Col de Kock, Brig Visser and Brig Ig Coetzee, who is now Gen Coetzee. The necessity, advisability, practical viability of the action was consistently discussed, the urgency of the proposed action against the particular group, was also discuwsed, viewed in the light of the information regarding their probable share in the tremendous spate of political unrest and violence which at that stage, was the order of the day in the Transvaal.
MR VISSER: Yes, and you have given the names there, we know who they are, it was Glory Sidibe, MK Mzala, MK Pantsu, MK Sipho, MK Buzi and MK Ben, is that correct?
MR SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: And at the end of the discussions, you state in paragraph 16 ...
MR SCHOON: At the end of the discussions, Gen van der Merwe expressed his approval that the operation could continue. I would involve the elimination of Glory Sidibe and as many possible of the other members of the September Machinery as could be obtained.
MR VISSER: And did you convey these instructions to Col de Kock?
MR SCHOON: As far as my memory serves me, Col de Kock was present during those discussions where the order was given and consequently it was not necessary for me to convey the order to him as such.
MR VISSER: But with regard to you, no one who participated in this operation, would have doubted that Gen van der Merwe had authorised the operation?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you have listened to what Brig Coetzee gave evidence about, that you arranged to meet at Oshoek where you spent the night in Oshoek in a guest house?
MR SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And the following morning, what took place?
MR SCHOON: The following day, I gathered at the Oshoek border post in the company of Brigadiers Ig Coetzee and Schalk Visser and Col van Wyngaard.
MR VISSER: Proceed with the next paragraph.
MR SCHOON: Early the following morning, which was a Sunday, Colonels de Kock, de Jager, W. Coetzee and A. Pretorius and possibly still other members, reported to us regarding the operation. We were informed that three terrorists who were members of the September Machinery, had been killed, and that weapons and documents had been taken into possession. Afterwards I attempted to contact Gen van der Merwe from Oshoek to inform him, but the telephones were out of order. I then departed with some of the members and went to the residence of the Commissioner of the SAP in Pretoria, to inform him so that he would be capable of dealing with any queries which may be directed at him, from Foreign Affairs. We anticipated this. At the General's home, I, Colonels de Jager and de Kock and possibly still one or two other members, went to the General. I explained to him that three terrorists had been killed in Swaziland and that documents and weapons had been confiscated. We did not spend much time there. Later I would also have reported to Gen van der Merwe although I cannot recall the event precisely.
MR VISSER: You have testified on many previous occasions regarding the period of time of warfare in which our country found itself, and your political motivation. Do you confirm the summary thereof in paragraphs 22 to 27?
MR SCHOON: Yes, I do.
MR VISSER: And then, with regard to paragraphs (c) and (d) of paragraph 28, it would not be of application to you, however you do then request amnesty for any offence or delict which may be committed by you with regard to this particular incident?
MR SCHOON: Yes, I do so.
MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR HATTINGH: Hatting on record Chairperson, we have no questions for this witness, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH
MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw Mr Chairman, I also don't have any questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW
MR PRINSLOO: Prinsloo on record Chairperson, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: No questions, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
