CHAIRPERSON: Where does this take us? Who is the next applicant to give evidence.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chairperson. Cornelius on behalf of Vermeulen. I will call Vermeulen.
NICHOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen you have completed an application form and have handed it in to the TRC and your application appears on page 238 to page 279, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You were in the service of the South African Police as it is defined in Section 22(b) and 22(f) of Act 34 of '95, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: At the time of this incident you were attached to the section which was commonly known as Vlakplaas, C Section under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, one of the applicants in this matter, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And you confirm annexure C, the document about Vlakplaas which has been brought before the Committee several times?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: During this incident what was your rank?
MR VERMEULEN: A warrant officer, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: All instructions - or let me ask you, there were times when Vlakplaas worked along with the sections of Security Branch and your duties were identifying MKs and tracing them and to obtaining and collecting all information with regard to security, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And when this incident took place was it one of the operations where you received instructions to go to Colonel Prinsloo with regard to this person?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Who was in command at Vlakplaas with regard to this incident? Was it yourself or Martiens Ras?
MR VERMEULEN: It was Martiens Ras Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: It is also common cause that you occupied a safe house in Soutpan and you operated from there?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Will you please tell us what happened from the moment the deceased, Patrick Mahlangu, was brought to the house.
MR VERMEULEN: Please say again.
MR CORNELIUS: Will you please tell us what happened from the time that Patrick Mahlangu was brought to the safe house, can you recall how he arrived there?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, he arrived there in a minibus, along with the askaris.
MR CORNELIUS: Was he arrested?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes he was arrested and they held him in a room there at the safe house.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. What can you recall further?
MR VERMEULEN: I can recall interrogation was done and he was assaulted there.
MR CORNELIUS: And when you arrived there had he already been assaulted?
MR VERMEULEN: I cannot recall. I did not see him while he climbed out of the minibus.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Did you yourself participate in the interrogation?
MR VERMEULEN: No Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Who led the interrogation?
MR VERMEULEN: Mr Ras and then some of the other persons.
MR CORNELIUS: If you are referring to the other persons do you refer to askaris?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you recall when Colonel Prinsloo arrived there and was dissatisfied with the situation?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And what did you then decide along with Martiens Ras? Or what did Colonel Prinsloo say must happen to Patrick Mahlangu?
MR VERMEULEN: We received the instruction that he had to be removed, killed, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And how did you decide to get rid of the body?
MR VERMEULEN: By means of explosives Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: There was mention in the application of Ras, of a landmine, can you inform us about that?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes I think it was only because we would have used a landmine but I could not find one and we used T & T blocks which had the same charge velocity as a landmine and we made a device out of that.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. And where did you find that?
MR VERMEULEN: From the storerooms at Vlakplaas Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: How many kilograms of T & T did you use?
MR VERMEULEN: I would say approximately eight kilograms, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And what would you use as a trigger mechanism?
MR VERMEULEN: We would have detonated it electronically Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you please explain to the Committee how does this electronic detonation work? Is it with a battery?
MR VERMEULEN: It is an electrical detonator that is connected with two wires and then one can detonate it from any type of battery, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: So you close the contact like it is in a switch with a battery and then the blast will go off?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: When you returned with the explosives, what did you do then?
MR VERMEULEN: We waited at the safe house until the evening and Martiens and I drove and identified a place.
MR CORNELIUS: Where was this place?
MR VERMEULEN: It was on the Thabazimbi road, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: We have heard of a railway line.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: And as I infer from the evidence the idea would be that he would have blown himself up?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. After you identified the place what did you do then?
MR VERMEULEN: We then went back to the safe house, and as far as I can recall we waited for the evening and then we departed in the minibus, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: If you are saying "we" we will say it's common cause that Colonel Prinsloo was driving; you were in the passenger seat and Roslee and Ras in the back with the detainee. Is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And then what happened?
MR VERMEULEN: We went to the appropriate place and on our way there Martiens started strangling the deceased, and when we arrived at the place we unloaded him and took him and carried him to the railway line.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. The idea of strangling him can you tell us what the purpose of it was?
MR VERMEULEN: It was to render the person controllable so that we could deal with him properly at the railway line.
MR CORNELIUS: In other words it was to kill him so that you could get rid of the body?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius may I interpose. How did you know what the idea of strangling of Mr Mahlangu was? Was this discussed beforehand that he would be strangled?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Ras and I discussed and Mr Ras told me that he would strangle Mr Mahlangu.
CHAIRPERSON: You may respond to my questions in Afrikaans. I am sure you will feel much more comfortable in doing so.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Ms Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR CORNELIUS: When he was unloaded was he still alive or not?
MR VERMEULEN: I would not know Chairperson. At that stage I was not very much interested in him, I was much more interested in the explosives Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: How did you then get the deceased to the railway line?
MR VERMEULEN: We carried him over the fence.
MR CORNELIUS: Are you saying he was carried? Did you participate in carrying him?
MR VERMEULEN: I cannot recall because I think I was still busy with the explosives and wires.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you give us details about what happened at the railway line?
MR VERMEULEN: At the railway line we placed the body next to the railway line and placed the explosives in his lap and bent over his head and arms and laid out the wires, and behind the railway line was an embankment and we lay there and we detonated the charge.
MR CORNELIUS: The deceased was he deceased at that stage before the load was detonated?
MR VERMEULEN: I would assume so, yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you handle him and place him in position over the explosives?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you then believe he was deceased?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes because there was no reaction from the body itself, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you then remove his clothing or did you leave his clothing on?
MR VERMEULEN: We did not remove his clothing Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: This method of destruction of bodies we have seen in the TRC was a general norm at Vlakplaas.
MR VERMEULEN: After that one, yes, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You told me that the explosive was detonated, are you telling us that you detonated the explosives?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: There was an explosion and the electric cables, there was a short, and I received a slight electrical shock but it was not serious.
MR CORNELIUS: They were overhead cables for locomotives and I believe that the charge you set off touched up on the overhead cables.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Did you trust the discretion and judgment of Colonel Prinsloo?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes I did.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you were acting against the enemy of the National government at that time?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that you were acting against the enemy?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Was that the information that was available to you at that stage?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Who conveyed this information to you?
MR VERMEULEN: Colonel Prinsloo supplied us with the information at his office. He was a captain then.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you have knowledge that commanders in certain areas had to take responsibility for Vlakplaas people working in the areas?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any reward, apart from your salary, as stipulated by section 23 by the Act?
MR VERMEULEN: No Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you acted within the scope of your duties and the interest of the country?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You apply for amnesty in your participance in the murder and the destruction of the corpse, as well as transgressions with regard to the law of explosions. You say you were an inspector in explosives and that is why your services were required?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius. Mr Hattingh would you prefer to start this time? I see you are going for the button.
MR HATTINGH: I am.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: I am prepared and I am ready to start Chairperson.
Mr Vermeulen I am not certain whether I have my facts correct or whether I recall this correctly, but did you leave your job in the South African Police Services due to health reasons?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you receive treatment for the so-called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Were you diagnosed as a person suffering from this disorder?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you still receive treatment for your condition?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Does this influence your capacity to recall the events of the past?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: In what way does it influence your capacity?
MR VERMEULEN: May times one cannot recall the entire sequence of events. One would only recall aspects of operations or incidents.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, I have noted that if one studies your amnesty application which appears on page 278 of Bundle 2 that you have described the entire incident in three paragraphs.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Now you were given an order by Mr de Kock to assist with regard to this incident, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: You and Mr Ras.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you then had to decide who you would take with you.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Or did Mr de Kock make that decision?
MR VERMEULEN: I am not certain. I think that matter was left over to Mr Ras.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Whatever the case may be you took a group of so-called askaris with you and then there was also at least one of which we know and for which we are acting, Mr Simon Radebe, who was not an askari but a member of the South African Police, he also accompanied you.
MR VERMEULEN: I am not entirely certain, but I would answer yes.
MR HATTINGH: You cannot recall precisely?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: There at Soutpan, Mr Vermeulen, did you also encounter members of the former Northern Transvaal Security Branch?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you know Mr Dos Santos?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: At the time when you were there, at that so-called safe house, was he also there?
MR VERMEULEN: I cannot recall seeing him there.
MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that he was there but that you have simply forgotten that he was there?
MR VERMEULEN: It is possible that he may have been there.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now the order that you received from Mr de Kock, it was an order to assist under the command of Mr Prinsloo and to render assistance to his division of the Security Branch?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: So you would have received orders from him and you were obliged to carry out those orders.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you know previously, before you joined Mr Prinsloo and his men, what the task would be that you were supposed to perform there?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes, basically that we had to assist with the tracing of terrorists.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. So it was about the tracing of terrorists and not about the abduction and interrogation of terrorists?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: The fact that the person was abducted and thereafter interrogated was not foreseen when you received your order?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And when the order was then received from Mr Prinsloo that Mr Mahlangu was to be eliminated you then approached Mr de Kock in this regard.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: What is your recollection Mr Vermeulen of your meeting with Mr de Kock and what you said to him, and what was discussed there between the two of you?
MR VERMEULEN: What I can remember Chairperson is that I went to the farm, I requested explosives from Mr de Kock. At first he refused. After a while I returned to him and asked him again, then he gave me the keys to the storeroom.
MR HATTINGH: Can you recall precisely whether you told him why you wanted the explosives and if so what exactly you told him?
MR VERMEULEN: I am not completely certain of what my choice of words was, but I assume that I would have told him that I required the explosives in order to destroy a body.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. You didn't tell him, as far as you can recall, that this person was not yet deceased?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR HATTINGH: Because you see in his application he also states pertinently on page 309 that you told him that the Pretoria Branch of the SAP, and more specifically Prinsloo and Dos Santos were interrogating a black man who had in the process been killed. Is it possible that you may have conveyed such information to Mr de Kock?
MR VERMEULEN: I am not certain whether I really ever saw Mr Dos Santos in the vicinity of the interrogation of Mr Mahlangu.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, he may not have been present there, but isn't it possible that you may have mentioned his name because you noticed him there at Soutpan with regard to this operation?
MR VERMEULEN: No I don't believe so. I cannot recall Dos Santos at any stage there.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Mr de Kock also tells me that he may be mistaken regarding the Dos Santos aspect, but he does recall that you mentioned Mr Dos Santos' name to him, but we will leave it at that.
It is clear, according to what Mr de Kock says here, that he didn't know that this person was still to be killed, would you agree with that?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes I would agree with that.
MR HATTINGH: He also wasn't aware that you and Mr Ras were involved in the interrogation of Mr Mahlangu. I beg your pardon for saying "you" because you were not involved in the interrogation.
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR HATTINGH: You didn't tell him that Mr Ras was involved in interrogation?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR HATTINGH: In fact you didn't tell him that a person had been abducted by the askaris and that thereafter he had been interrogated and assaulted?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR HATTINGH: When Mr de Kock eventually agreed to let you take the explosives he gave you the key to the relevant storeroom where the explosives were stored?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you then took what you needed?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Can you recall that you reported to Mr de Kock regarding the incident?
MR VERMEULEN: I am not certain whether subsequently I reported to him. Usually it would be the senior member of our unit, so to speak, who would do the reporting, and that would have been Mr Ras.
MR HATTINGH: You see Mr de Kock states in his application that he recalls that the following day you reported to him that you, along with Mr Prinsloo were there when the body was blown up next to a railway track in the northern district.
MR VERMEULEN: It may be so. I cannot dispute it.
MR HATTINGH: Did you see a report in the newspaper in connection with the incident?
MR VERMEULEN: No I simply heard of it.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh. Mr Jansen?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Vermeulen you cannot recall who the askaris were who conducted the abduction themselves?
MR VERMEULEN: No I cannot.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey. Mr van Heerden, you have questions to put?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Maybe let's find out from the Bench Mr Cornelius before we afford you an opportunity to re-examine whether they do want to put questions on issues of clarity to Mr Vermeulen. Then your re-examination will simply take into account their questioning as well. Mr Motata?
ADV MOTATA: I have got nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: And neither have I.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to examine if you do have any re-examination to do.
MR CORNELIUS: I don't. Thank you for the opportunity Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Vermeulen you are excused as a witness.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?
MR WAGENER: Chairperson I believe it's Mr Roslee. I am just going to change a chair so that Mr Roslee can move in here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
