CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all. Today we are going to sit here and consider the applications of the following applicants; Mr Chenny William More, Mr Smuts Philemon Mathebula and Mr Kokela Jeremiah Matjeni. The Panel to sit and consider these applications comprises myself, Judge Sisi Khampepe, on my right-hand side, Mr Johnny Motata, on my left-hand side, Mr Wynand Malan. The Evidence Leader to assist us in these applications, is Mr Andre Steenkamp.
Will counsel appearing on behalf of the applicants kindly place their names on record.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair. My name is Jansen, I appear on the instructions of Mr Julian Night Attorneys, we appear for applicant Matjeni.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen.
MR JOUBERT: Thank you. My surname is Joubert, I appear on behalf of Mr Mathebula and More in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Joubert. For the victims?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm Eric van den Berg from the firm Bell Dewar and Hall, I appear on behalf of the Morudi family.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg. Mr Steenkamp, on reading the applications we note that several persons have been implicated in respect of this incident. Have we complied with Section 19.4 of the Act, by serving the notices as they are required in terms of the law?
ADV STEENKAMP: Madam Chair, Honourable Committee Members just for record purposes, I've just confirmed and spoken to the Evidence Analyst, Mr Joel Klaasen, he confirmed with me that each and every applicant was served with a notice, or otherwise reasonable steps were taken to inform or to locate them. Looking specifically at the implicated people, Mr Hendrik Prinsloo, Mr Dos Santos and Mr Ludick's lawyers, Ms van der Walt and Adv Prinsloo, have been duly notified as well. Now I've discussed personally the matter with them yesterday as well. They were fully informed about this hearing as well. They have supplied me this morning with sworn statements of Mr Prinsloo and Dos Santos, which I've duly distributed to all the representatives here as well as to the Panel.
Regarding Mr Bokaba, Hechter and Mr van Vuuren, I've spoken to Mr Swarts from Strydom Britz - sorry that's Mr C Swart, as well as Adv Roelof du Plessis. They were also fully aware and notified about this matter. I've just spoken again this morning twice with Mr Swart and Mr du Plessis. They informed me that although their clients are implicated in this matter, they did not apply for amnesty in this matter at all, but that they are considering their position in supply the Committee with sworn statements or affidavits.
Regarding the position of Mr Mamasela, I personally have spoken to our Evidence Analyst, who informed me that he was also notified. I spoke to the Amnesty Committee's Chief Investigator in Gauteng, Col Killian, informed him that he - and told me that he personally is aware that Mr Mamasela was informed by one of our Investigators some time back. But unfortunately we don't know what the whereabouts of Mr Mamasela is, but that was his statement and he asked me to convey to the Committee that he was also informed.
Regarding the rest of the people who were ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt, Mr Steenkamp. Was he informed or was an attempt made to serve the Section 19.4 notice?
ADV STEENKAMP: Chairperson, I understand that he was actually served with a Section 19.4 notice.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: I've requested for a Return of Service, but according to Col Killian, that document was already served on him some time back, more than three weeks back already.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: But I'm not placed in the possession. Just for record purposes, Mr Klaasen indicated to me that if necessary, a letter from him can also be obtained and handed in as an exhibit, whereby exactly the details of whoever was informed and when they were informed exactly, can also be obtained if necessary.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'd appreciate to get an affidavit from him if we can't get a Return of Service.
ADV STEENKAMP: I'll do that, Madam Chair. That's what I can put on record so far. I can just maybe state that this morning I've tried to locate Mr Prinsloo, early morning, after receiving these statements. Unfortunately I was informed that both Ms van der Walt and Mr Prinsloo are not - I was not able to contact them at all, but I'll duly try and do so as quickly as I can. I'm in the process of trying to contact them, to get some clarity of the statements.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the position with regard to Mr P W Botha and Mr Putter? They are also implicated parties.
ADV STEENKAMP: Madam Chair, I was informed by the Evidence Analyst that everyone, each and every implicated party was informed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will be in a position during the course of the day, to get an affidavit from Mr Klaasen if we are unable to be given Returns of Service with regard to these notices?
ADV STEENKAMP: I've requested that already, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Jansen and Mr Joubert, have you arranged with regard to who is going to kick-start the process by giving evidence? Is it your client, Mr Jansen, or Mr Joubert's?
MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, yes we have indeed and we've decided to have Mr Mathebula kick off, whereafter Mr More will and then Mr Matjeni, to have the process in a chronological sequence as it is at present.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so it will be Mr Mathebula, followed by Mr More ...(intervention)
MR JOUBERT: And thereafter Mr Matjeni.
CHAIRPERSON: ... Mr Matjeni.
Mr Mathebula, you'll be giving your evidence in what
language?
MR JOUBERT: He'll be giving evidence in Tswana, Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: In Tswana.
ADV MOTATA: Will you please give us your full names.
SMUTS PHILEMON MATHEBULA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Joubert.
EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr Mathebula, you have lodged an application for amnesty which is contained on pages 117 to 122 of bundle 1 and then the annexure thereto, page 123 to 128, which is in regard to the incident pertaining to Mr Moses Morudi. Is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Do you confirm the content of these pages that I've just referred you to?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: And will you now give further evidence in conjunction with the application as it is before the Committee at this stage?
MR MATHEBULA: I will do so.
MR JOUBERT: Now I just want to take you through a few aspects which I wish to clarify. Madam Chair, we will take the application as it is and I'm just going to clarify certain smaller issues and whereafter that will be the total application.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR JOUBERT: In your application on page 124, paragraph 2, you indicate, and I'll quote in Afrikaans from the third line
"... departed for Potchefstroom in a white Skyline and would meet us there as soon as Moses Morudi had been arrested."
When you say -
"... would meet us there ..."
... are you referring to in Potchefstroom, or would this be outside the town itself? Where precisely would that be?
MR MATHEBULA: Outside Potchefstroom, Chairperson. Just outside Potchefstroom.
MR JOUBERT: And then if I may take you to paragraph 3 on the same page, the third last line, you say
"According to them, Moses lived there"
When you "lived", what do you mean by that, was he permanently resident there or was he merely visiting? What is the exact position?
MR MATHEBULA: It seems he was visiting there.
MR JOUBERT: And then on page ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Joubert.
Why do you say it seems he was visiting there, whereas in your affidavit the suggestion, the words used suggested that he was staying there?
MR MATHEBULA: According to the information from Capt Prinsloo, he left Mamelodi, then he was there, he was using that place as a hiding place.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?
MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Then on page 125 of your application, at the top of the page, do you recall - when you approached Mr Morudi and spoke to him to advise him that you had been sent to take him for training outside the country, can you recall what the name of the person was that was used?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember the name I used.
MR JOUBERT: Can you recall whether you used this name when you spoke to Mr Morudi? Did you say to him "Mr so and so has sent us", or can you not recall that?
MR MATHEBULA: It's possible that I used a particular name, but I don't remember.
MR JOUBERT: Okay, then furthermore on the same page ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Are you on the same page, Mr Joubert, with Mr Mathebula? I don't think - you don't seem to be on the same page with Mr Mathebula.
MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, yes we are. On the top of page 125, we're both on the same page there. He's looking at the same page with me. I'm pointing to him with the pen.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in terms of understanding.
MR JOUBERT: Yes, in terms of understanding as well, Madam Chair. It refers to
"... and that the informer had said that he would send someone"
In short, if I may just address you on this. The evidence of Mr More at a later stage will be that when they approached Mr Morudi they said to him that, or they used the name of some person who had sent them. I'm just asking Mr Mathebula whether he can recall whether they did indeed say Mr so and so sent us, or not. I'm just clarifying very small issues and then we're going to be completed with his application.
MR MALAN: Mr Joubert, just following up on the Chair's remark, I heard Mr Mathebula saying he can't remember which name he used, 'cause he was using different names at stages. And I think that was the reason for the question. Could you just put it again, whether he can remember the name of the informant which he disclosed to Mr Morudi.
CHAIRPERSON: As having sent him to Mr Morudi.
MR MALAN: Yes.
MR JOUBERT: As it pleases the Chair.
Mr Mathebula, when you approached Mr Morudi, can you recall whether you used the name of somebody in telling him for example, that you were sent by this person, or can you not recall that?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember that particular name which I used on that particular day.
MR JOUBERT: Then at the end of that same paragraph, it's the first paragraph on page 125, you finish off where you say
"He handed it over to his grandmother"
Did you in fact see him hand the liquor to this person, or is this merely an assumption which you are making?
MR MATHEBULA: I did not see him handing over because we were outside. So that was just a suggestion.
MR JOUBERT: Were you in fact waiting outside in the vehicle for Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Then in paragraph 5, the fifth line from the top you say
"In Potchefstroom we drove past Dos Santos and the others"
Was this within the town, Potchefstroom itself, or do you refer to the district of Potchefstroom? Was it outside the town but within the district?
MR MATHEBULA: It was just outside Potchefstroom. I'm referring to Potchefstroom district.
MR JOUBERT: Then further down on the same paragraph you say
"Approximately 10 kilometres outside Potchefstroom I stopped to urinate. Dos Santos and the others stopped behind us and walked over to our motor vehicle. They took him out of the car and loaded him into the car with them, after which they drove in the direction of Pretoria."
Now at this stage, when this incident occurred, when Dos Santos and them approached your vehicle and removed Mr Morudi, were you at the car or were you still a bit away from the car urinating in the veld?
MR MATHEBULA: I was at a distance from the car because I was helping myself.
MR JOUBERT: Did you see whether they spoke to Mr Morudi or tried to establish his identity at all?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember that, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Then on page 126, paragraph ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Mr Joubert, this could be a rather important incident in the whole application, because of the implication of Dos Santos and the affidavit we've received from Prinsloo.
Mr Mathebula, did Mr Morudi get into that vehicle willingly, or was there any force used in transferring him into the vehicle of Dos Santos?
MR MATHEBULA: They opened the door and took him out and then they left and I was at a distance. There was no way he would not cooperate with them.
MR MALAN: But was he surprised?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, the way I saw him, he was surprised.
MR MALAN: I'll tell you why I'm asking this. If you look at the affidavit - I wonder, Chair, whether we could give these affidavits numbers at the moment, the one of Prinsloo, maybe Exhibit A and the one of Dos Santos B.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo's affidavit will be Exhibit A and Mr Dos Santos' affidavit will be Exhibit B. I take it that both counsel has already been handed these documents by Mr Steenkamp and you are in your possession thereof.
MR JANSEN: Yes, we are, Madam Chair, thank you. I just think I seem to have the original of the Prinsloo affidavit. We should maybe change it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you incorrectly have the original. Can I give you mine, which is a copy.
MR JANSEN: Yes.
MR MALAN: Mr Mathebula, if you could just refer to the first paragraph - well the first paragraph under 3 of Exhibit A. Mr Prinsloo says that the handlers of Morudi were Putter and Botha, which suggests that Morudi was an informer. Do you have any information about this? Can you shed any light on this?
MR MATHEBULA: If he was an informer, I did not know, but I did not have that knowledge.
MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Joubert.
MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Mr Malan. ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert, I take it that you will be later coming to deal with the affidavits before us, but you are in the meantime just clearing up certain inconsistencies with regard to the affidavit of Mr Mathebula, as it stands.
MR JOUBERT: Yes, Madam Chair, I will indeed deal with those two short affidavits at the end of the evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR JOUBERT: Mr Mathebula, then the last incident, or the further thing I wish to refer you to is on page 126, paragraph 7, you indicate that you were approached by either Mr Prinsloo or Dos Santos, you're not quite sure, to go to a farm near Hammanskraal. Is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Can you recall why you were requested to go to the farm?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember well the purpose for me to be sent to Hammanskraal.
MR JOUBERT: If I understand your application correct, there was interrogation of Mr Morudi on the farm, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Did you partake in this interrogation? Can you recall whether you did?
MR MATHEBULA: I found him at the farm being interrogated by Hechter and van Vuuren and Hendrik Bokaba. They were asking him about various issues. I don't remember as to whether I did partake in the interrogation.
MR JOUBERT: And then in paragraph 8 on the same page, you say you returned after a few hours on the farm, two to three hours, you returned to Pretoria and approximately a week later you then again went to the farm, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: And the purpose of that second visit to the farm, was that merely to go and remove the tents or was there any other purpose?
MR MATHEBULA: We were instructed to move the tents.
MR JOUBERT: And can you recall whether Mr More was with you at that stage, or not?
MR MATHEBULA: It's possible that he was in my company, but I don't remember well.
MR JOUBERT: Now in the same paragraph you say
"I didn't see anybody else there"
When you say this, who are you referring to, are you referring to colleagues who were assisting you in removing the tents, or are you referring to Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: When we arrived at the farm, Moses Morudi was not present. Where I left him for the last time, he was not there when I went there for the second time. It was not only us who went there to move the tents.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Joubert. I'm just trying to get clarity with regard to the period during which he was abducted, then held at the farm in Hammanskraal, when he, Mr Mathebula, was ultimately instructed to remove the tents at Hammanskraal farm.
Mr Mathebula, you say that two days after Mr Morudi had been abducted you visited the farm of Maj Smit, where you found amongst others, Mamasela and Capt Hechter interrogating him.
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Then you later on state that a week thereafter you were then ordered to remove the tents at the farm. Was it a week after Mr Morudi's abduction, or a week after you had first visited the farm when you saw him being interrogated by Hechter and Mamasela? Which of the two?
MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well it's a week after I saw him being interrogated at the farm.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Joubert.
MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr Mathebula, we received copies of statements by Mr Dos Santos and Mr Prinsloo, they're marked Exhibits A & B. We received them this morning. I have provided them to you for you to read through them, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: With reference to Annexure A, the statement by Mr Prinsloo, you will note that in paragraph 1 of paragraph 3, if I may refer to it as that, he refers to a W/O Putter and a Const Botha. Is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Do you know what the position is regarding Mr Putter and Mr Botha? Were they members of Unit C?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Do you know what their position is today, where they are or where they may be found?
MR MATHEBULA: They've all since died.
MR JOUBERT: Have they both passed away, as far as your knowledge is concerned?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Now you'll note that Mr Prinsloo denies any involvement pertaining to the abduction of Moses Morudi. Do you have any comment on this?
MR MATHEBULA: I'm surprised today, because he's the one who sent us to Potchefstroom where Moses was staying. He's the one who gave us the address where Moses was staying. That is when we were able to reach that place where Morudi was staying. I'm surprised when he says he doesn't know anything about this.
MR JOUBERT: Did you at any stage deal with Mr Putter and Mr Botha in relation to Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Now in your application on page 124, paragraph 2, you refer to
"... W/O Dos Santos, Kalfyn Ludick and another white man"
Can you recall who this other white male was?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember his identity.
MR JOUBERT: Can you recall whether this may have been Putter or Botha?
MR MATHEBULA: It may be Botha, not Putter.
CHAIRPERSON: Why could it not be Mr Putter?
MR MATHEBULA: Putter was not involved in the operations where we were involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Joubert.
MR JOUBERT: Then with relation to Annexure B, the statement by Dos Santos, it's a very short statement and I will merely refer you to paragraph 3 thereof. He denies any involvement pertaining to the abduction of Moses Morudi. Do you have any comment on that?
MR MATHEBULA: That is not true which appears in his statement.
MR JOUBERT: Are you quite sure of the fact that Mr Dos Santos was present in the white Skyline that you refer to in your application?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, that is correct, he was present.
MR JOUBERT: Now Mr Mathebula, I'm not going to burden the record with references to the political situation at that stage and your political motivation, you have testified before this Committee prior to this and they are well aware of your situation in this regard. Is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Do you know what happened - sorry, I just want to come back to one issue. When you came to the farm to remove the tents and found that Mr Morudi was gone, do you know what happened to him? Do you know where he had left for or what had happened?
MR MATHEBULA: I'd be lying if I may tell you what happened to him.
MR JOUBERT: And is it then correct that you are now applying for amnesty for the abduction and any involvement that you may have had in this regard pertaining to Moses Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: As well as any other crime that may be related to this possible abduction.
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: Are you also requesting amnesty for any civil claims which may result as a consequence to your involvement in the possible abduction of Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: That will be all, thank you, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathebula, you state that Mr Morudi was removed from your car by someone, do you recall whether it was Dos Santos or Mr Ludick who removed him from your car to load him onto the car they were driving in, that is the white Skyline?
MR MATHEBULA: I'm not able to say who among them took him out of my car, but one of them did.
CHAIRPERSON: Approximately what time of the day was it when he was so removed by one of them from your car along the Potchefstroom/Johannesburg road?
MR MATHEBULA: It was in the afternoon, I would not remember exactly what time.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it still daylight?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of road is this one? Is this the main road from Potchefstroom to Johannesburg?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson, that is the main road from Johannesburg to Potchefstroom.
CHAIRPERSON: And what kind of traffic was there? Would you say there were many cars which were along that road?
MR MATHEBULA: The traffic was not that congested.
CHAIRPERSON: Did this occur during the week or over a weekend?
MR MATHEBULA: It was during the week, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?
MR JANSEN: None, thank you, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair, I do have a few.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mathebula, it's correct that you were a trained policeman, you'd been to Police College. At the time of this incident what was your rank?
MR MATHEBULA: I was a Constable, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: The instruction that you received to go to Potchefstroom, is it correct that this was given to you by Prinsloo?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall the exact instruction, what was it that he told you to go and do?
MR MATHEBULA: He called us in the morning, it was myself and Chenny More, to his office. He informed us that he has an information that Moses Morudi he's staying at a particular place at Ikageng in Potchefstroom, then he gave us an address. He told us that when we arrived there we should tell him that we're going to pick him up. We should take him to exile.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you said that Mr More was present when the instruction was given, was there anybody else present?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson, we were three.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you've already testified that the instruction was to go to Potchefstroom and to tell Mr Morudi that you would come to pick him up to take him to exile. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson, that's what I've said.
MR VAN DEN BERG: But you don't recall the name which you were instructed to use, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember, Chairperson, because we used to use many names. I don't remember the particular name which I used in this particular incident.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now there seems to be two names at issue here, if I understand you correctly. There was the name which you used, in other words an alias or a pseudonym for yourself, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't understand your question, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: When you got to Mr Morudi, did you say I am Mathebula, I am here sent by this man from Botswana, to take for military training? Did you use your name or did you not identify yourself to Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember as to whether I used my true identity.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it customary for you to use your real name in a situation such as this one?
MR MATHEBULA: I would not use my true identity in this kind of incident. We were not using our true identity.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so the question being put to you by Mr van den Berg is that to your recollection, did you use a name other than your name when you introduced yourself to Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, I used a particular name, but I don't remember that name today.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair.
And then the second name which is at issue is the name which you used to say so and so has sent me, and you say that you don't recall that name either, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, that is correct that I don't remember the name I used for myself and the name I used for the person who has instructed me to come and pick him up.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I make some suggestions to you as to what that name might have been, the second name, not the name that you used for yourself? Do you understand what I'm going to put to you?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to try and jolt his memory?
MR VAN DEN BERG: I am, Madam Chair.
MR MATHEBULA: Please mention the name, maybe it will refresh my memory.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Might you have used the name Masina -M-a-s-i-n-a?
MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that I used that name, but I don't remember.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know a person called Obet Masina?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, I do.
MR VAN DEN BERG: So you say it's possible that you might have used his name?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, there is that possibility.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr van den Berg. Now that we know that he knows Obet Masina, can we just find out how and where he knows Obet Masina from.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Is correct, Mr Mathebula, that Obet Masina was an MK Commander, in charge of a unit which was operational in the Mamelodi area and also in the Soshanguve area? Do you know that?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: But how do you know Obet Masina, Mr Mathebula?
MR MATHEBULA: I knew Obet Masina at the time when he was in detention in the police cells.
MR VAN DEN BERG: So you met Mr Masina for the first time after he had been arrested and detained? Do I understand you correctly?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And when was this, can you recall the year when he was detained?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember the year, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: This incident happened around 1987/1988, had you known him for much longer by the time Mr Morudi was abducted and if so, would you say it was longer than six months or longer than a year?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember that at the time when we were going to abduct Morudi, at that particular time Masina and his company were in detention or not, or is it before or after.
CHAIRPERSON: So you can't say whether you knew him quite well at the time when Morudi was abducted?
MR MATHEBULA: Do you mean Masina?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MATHEBULA: I would not say I knew him well at that time.
ADV MOTATA: Was it before Justice Mbizana was abducted?
MR MATHEBULA: They didn't happen far apart, but I don't remember which one happened first between the two.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you said it's possible that you might have used the name of Masina. Can I put another name to you? Might you have used the name of Masango - M-a-s-a-n-g-o?
MR MATHEBULA: As I've already stated before this Committee, it's possible that I used a particular name, but I don't remember. Is it possible that I used those names.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know Mr Ting-Ting Masango?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, I know. He was arrested together with Mr Masango.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Together with Mr Masina.
INTERPRETER: Together with Mr Masina.
MR MATHEBULA: They were arrested at the same time.
MR VAN DEN BERG: They were arrested together with Neo Potsane and Elias Makura. That was the unit which Mr Masina was the commander of.
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: These four MK operatives were arrested and were in detention prior to Mr Morudi's disappearance. Can you confirm or deny that?
MR MATHEBULA: I would not dispute that because I've already stated that I don't remember as to whether which one came first.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you said that part of your instructions were to go and find Mr Morudi in Ikageng because as you understood it, he was in hiding there. Did I understand your evidence correctly?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: You see because at a certain time Mr Masango was brought to the Morudi home. He was handcuffed and brought by the police. They were looking for Moses Morudi. Do you know about that?
MR MATHEBULA: It's possible that it was a certain group, but I was not party to that.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And it was just yourself and Mr More that went down to Potchefstroom in the, you described it as a Peugeot 404, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And Dos Santos, Ludick and another person were in a separate vehicle, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson, they were driving a white Skyline.
MR VAN DEN BERG: When you arrived at Ikageng, as I understand from your application, Mr Morudi was not present at the address that you had been given and you left a message. Do you recall what the message was?
MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well, when they told us that he's not present, we told them that we'll be back after a while.
MR VAN DEN BERG: When you returned and Mr Morudi was present, can you enlighten the Committee as to what was discussed? Can you recall?
MR MATHEBULA: When we returned we told him that we were coming to pick him up, we want him to go to exile, then he requested us that he wanted to buy Mainstay at the bottle store.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Was he surprised and you made the suggestion to him that he should into exile? Or that you were there to collect him to go into exile.
MR MATHEBULA: He was excited, he was not surprised.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And was he in any way suspicious about you and Mr More?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: You say you can't recall whether he offered any resistance when he was transferred from your vehicle to the vehicle of Mr Dos Santos, you say that you weren't close enough to see.
CHAIRPERSON: His evidence was quite clear, Mr van den Berg, he did not offer any resistance. He recalls that.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Was Dos Santos and Ludick and the other person, were they armed?
INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Were either of Dos Santos, Ludick and the third white person, were they armed?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember as to whether they were armed or not, but usually because of the police practice we used to carry our firearms.
MR VAN DEN BERG: The next time that you saw Mr Morudi was at this farm, you say it belongs to a Maj Smit ...(intervention)
MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, if I may come in. The next time he saw Mr Morudi was at the Compol building.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Joubert, I'm indebted.
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 6, Mr van den Berg.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair.
When you saw Mr Morudi at Compol, is it correct that he was then in the presence of Dos Santos, Ludick and also Capt Prinsloo?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And did they tell you what they were going to do with Mr Morudi, where he was going?
MR MATHEBULA: They only informed us that we can go back home.
MR VAN DEN BERG: What did you anticipate would happen with Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: I thought he would be interrogated about the various issues.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And then moving on to this farm, you say in your application that he was shackled with both handcuffs and foot-cuffs, leg-irons.
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you present when he was interrogated?
MR MATHEBULA: At that particular time when I testified that I was there for plus minus three hours, yes he was interrogated, but I don't remember on which subject or subjects.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And who was responsible for his interrogation? Who was asking him the questions?
MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well it was Capt Hechter.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And did Mr Mamasela participate in the interrogation?
MR MATHEBULA: He was present in that interrogation team, but I don't as to whether he took part.
MR VAN DEN BERG: You talk about a team. We've heard about Capt Hechter, we've heard about Mamasela, who else?
MR MATHEBULA: Vermeulen was present. His name appears on my statement.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Would you just point that out to me.
MR MATHEBULA: Paul van Vuuren was present, not Vermeulen.
MR VAN DEN BERG: We have Hechter, van Vuuren and Mamasela, anybody else?
MR MATHEBULA: Hendrik Bokaba was present and Dennis Dladla.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Capt Prinsloo, was he present?
MR MATHEBULA: At the farm Prinsloo was not present.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And Dos Santos?
MR MATHEBULA: He was not present at the farm.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Now if I understand your evidence correctly, you were there for, you say for a short period, some three hours or so, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: I would say I was there for approximately three hours.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And then the next time that you returned to the farm, Mr Morudi was not there, is that correct?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, he was not present when I went there for the second time.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Had you met Mr Morudi before this incident?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson, I did not know him.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you shown a photograph of him before you went to Potchefstroom?
MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember. It's possible that I was shown a photograph of him.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr van den Berg. Maybe this would be an appropriate time for me to just put this question which is worrying me in my mind, with regard to whether Mr Mathebula knew Mr Morudi prior to this incident or not.
Mr Mathebula, you see on page 123 of your affidavit, and that's the first paragraph, you state that at the time when you received instructions from Capt Prinsloo to go and abduct Mr Morudi, you had been looking for him. Do you see that? It's the third line of paragraph 1.
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, I see that.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say you had been looking for him?
MR MATHEBULA: I knew that he was looked after because he was involved in the landmine which blasted in Mamelodi, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now how were you looking for him, were you initially shown a photograph by Capt Prinsloo and then ordered to go around the township to search for Morudi? How would you have been able to look for a person whose face you did not know?
MR MATHEBULA: At the time when we were looking for him, we were using informers around Mamelodi.
CHAIRPERSON: So what was your role? If informers were being used, what role did you particularly play in searching for Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: I gave my informers instructions that if they can find him they should tell me because I did not know him at that time, facially.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he known to your informers?
MR MATHEBULA: I had only one informer which knew him, but others did not.
CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you been searching for Morudi, prior to his abduction?
MR MATHEBULA: I'm not able to specify, it might be a month or two or three, but I'm not able to specify.
CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't something that happened like two days before you were searching for him, then you received instructions from Prinsloo, you had been searching for him for approximately a few weeks before given this instruction to go to Ikageng to abduct him.
MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that we were looking for him for two to three weeks, but I'm not able to specify the duration.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Arising from those questions, Madam Chair, I'm instructed to ask Mr Mathebula who the informer was.
MR MATHEBULA: I'm not prepared to disclose the identity of that particular informer, because the South African Police are still using informers even today, so I'll be putting his life in danger.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Is this person whose identity you refuse to disclose, still an informer at present?
MR MATHEBULA: I'm not prepared to answer that question, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this informer, Mr Mathebula, an askari?
MR MATHEBULA: No, he was not an askari, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he a student?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And how did he know Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: They attended the same school together.
CHAIRPERSON: And was this informer based in Pretoria?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, he was staying in Mamelodi.
CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Morudi originally from Mamelodi?
MR MATHEBULA: According to my knowledge, that is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg, you may proceed.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair.
You were asked when you were giving evidence-in-chief, if you knew what had become of Mr Morudi and you said that you didn't. Can you speculate as to what became of him? Can I put it to you in this fashion, that the family anticipated that Mr Morudi would leave the country, they expected that that was what was going to happen and so when they didn't see him they were not overly worried that they didn't see him, but in 1990 when he didn't come back, they began to make enquiries and they've not been able to find him. Now you were one of the last people who saw him, do you have any idea what became of him?
MR MALAN: Mr van den Berg, he says in his application, the last paragraph 8, that he has a suspicion that Morudi had been murdered.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Honourable Member.
If we look at that, and that's really what I was trying to get to, the suspicion that he was murdered, on what do you base that?
MR MATHEBULA: It is based on when the person is detained through Security legislation that person would be detained within the law of the country, so he was not detained according to the law.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Do I understand you correctly, you're saying that because it was an unlawful arrest, an unlawful detention, it was not in terms of either the Criminal Procedure Act, or the Internal Security Act, that therefore he might have been murdered?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson, that is what I'm saying.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And if you were to speculate, and I accept that it's speculation, who do you think might have been responsible?
MR MATHEBULA: I'll be lying. Maybe Capt Hechter and van Vuuren and Mamasela and Bokaba would know, because those were the last people I left him with for the last time. My own responsibility is that I kidnapped him from Potchefstroom and that is all.
MR VAN DEN BERG: I understand your position at that time as a black person in the Security Police, did you make any enquiries, either to Capt Prinsloo or to your colleagues, as to what might have happened to Mr Morudi, did you discuss it?
MR MATHEBULA: As you have already stated that I was a black members, I would not be able to make enquiries about the whereabouts of any other person who was involved in that kind of incident.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you discuss it with Mr More or Mr Matjeni?
MR MATHEBULA: As I've already stated that I suspected that he was murdered, so I didn't know who was responsible because I was just suspecting or speculating.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Madam Chair, I see that it's eleven thirty. I would like to take an instruction. Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to - I haven't been in these hearings all of the past weeks, but I presume that there would be a short adjournment for tea.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van den Berg, you definitely haven't been around from some time. We no longer now have a short adjournment, we prefer proceeding until lunch time, unless a request is made either by yourself, with good reasons, or by the witness to have a short adjournment.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Might I then, Madam Chair, request a short adjournment of five minutes, just to take an instruction from the family as to whether I've covered all the aspects that they require me to cover?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And I undertake that no more than five minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Will that be convenient, Mr Jansen and Mr Joubert, if we were to take a five minute adjournment? Thank you. We'll have a five minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
SMUTS PHILEMON MATHEBULA: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg. We adjourned to enable you to take instructions from the victims, no from the relatives of Mr Morudi, whether you should put further questions to Mr Mathebula.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: (cont)
Thank you, Madam Chair, I'm indebted for the indulgence.
Mr Mathebula, just a number of other aspects. You say that when you went to Potchefstroom - well, let's just clarify this. When you went to Potchefstroom, were you armed? - you personally.
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: And did you display the weapon to Mr Morudi?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson, it was concealed.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Insofar as the informer is concerned, are you prepared to reveal the gender of the informer, whether it was male of female?
MR MATHEBULA: I've already stated that I'm not prepared to say anything in regard to the informer, but he was a male person.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Madam Chair ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, I'm hoping you are taking the question of an informer only up to this stage.
MR VAN DEN BERG: I was just about to say, Madam Chair, that I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Because his informer was not relevant to the ultimate abduction of Mr Morudi.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Madam Chair, there is one last question.
The name that you used as the person who sent you, was that the name of the informer?
MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?
ADV STEENKAMP: Nothing thank you, Chairlady.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Steenkamp. Any re-examination, Mr Joubert?
MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, no re-examination. There's one issue that I neglected to put to Mr Mathebula. With permission of the Committee I would like to put ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You may re-open and put that question.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: It's one singular issue. This pertains to Mr Matjeni's application on page 78 thereof.
Mr Mathebula, Mr Matjeni states on page 78, paragraph 9(a)(1) of his application, in line 3 from the bottom - I can start a bit earlier. He says -
"I can recall that Smuts Mathebula and Chenny More told me that they had fetched the man from somewhere ..."
Up to there that is correct, is that so?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: And then the sentence continues
".. and brought him there."
Now insofar as this may indicate or be interpreted to indicate that you and Mr More took Mr Morudi to the farm or to the Compol building, would that be correct or not?
MR MATHEBULA: He's referring to Compol building, not the farm.
MR JOUBERT: Yes, but does it indicate that you brought him anywhere apart from where you handed him over to the people in the white Skyline?
MR MATHEBULA: That is the only time when we handed him over, to the people at the Skyline.
MR JOUBERT: So insofar as it can be interpreted, this specific wording that you brought him anywhere else, that would not be correct.
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR JOUBERT: I have no further questions, thank you, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Joubert. Mr Malan, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?
MR MALAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?
ADV MOTATA: Just probably one, Madam Chair, emanating from a question asked by you earlier.
On page 123, where you say -
"At that stage we were looking for Moses Morudi and Capt Prinsloo said that he possessed information indicating that the man was currently hiding in the black residential area in Potchefstroom."
And then the sentence thereafter says -
"Based upon information, it was also suspected that he was involved in a landmine explosion in Mamelodi."
And you say now you had suspected that the man was going to be interrogated. Was it in relation to these incidents which it was suspected?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
ADV MOTATA: Now lastly, on paragraph 8 you say you suspected that he was killed. And on a question emanating from Mr van den Berg, that he was not arrested lawfully, should I infer that if people are not arrested lawfully, those people would be killed?
MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, that is a suspicion I had because he could have been taken to the cells. So he was killed, because he was not taken to the cells.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Madam Chair, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mathebula, would I be correct in encapsulating your affidavit as appearing on page 123, paragraph 1, as stating that you were advised by Capt Prinsloo about Mr Morudi's particular involvement with regard to the landmine incident which had taken place in Mamelodi?
MR MATHEBULA: Yes, that is correct, he is the person who informed me.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was as a result of his request that you initiated the search for Mr Morudi, thereby using your informer?
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You were advised of Morudi's involvement by Mr Prinsloo and nobody else.
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Just for clarity. These were at separate occasions. You were advised by Prinsloo earlier that you were looking for Morudi and then when you were summonsed to his office at a different occasion, he gave you the address.
MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathebula, you are excused as a witness.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: The next person to give evidence, as advised by counsel, will be Mr Chenny William More.
