DANIEL JOHAN STEENBERG: (sworn states)
MR VISSER: Thank you Commissioner.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Steenberg, you are also an applicant in this matter, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Your application can be found in bundle 1, from 257 to 270 and you deal with this particular matter from 264 to 269, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: In your application form with regard to paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) where the question is put whether you were a member or a supporter of a political organisation, you responded not applicable. Is that answer correct or incorrect?
MR STEENBERG: I think I may have amended it to Nationalist Party and then supporter.
MR VISSER: That would be paragraph 7 (a) and (b). Yes, you have given evidence previously in the amnesty application with regard to MK George and MK Brown where this application and it's amendment was granted.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Chairperson we would then ask you for purposes of the present application, to grant a similar amendment to this applicant as in the case of the previous applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will grant the amendment, Mr Visser. Mr Wagener has previously advanced very good reasons why such an amendment should be granted. It is on that basis that we proceed to grant such an amendment.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: May I, just for your own peace of mind, say that in respect of all the applicants that you represent, we'll take it that you will be proceeding to make a similar application and if you just mention, so that we can for purposes of the record, indicate that the application will be granted, without having to go through it.
MR VISSER: Thank you, we're indebted to you Chairperson. With the exception of the amendment which was granted, do you confirm the content of your amnesty application, subject to the evidence that you will deliver today?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have done so previously, but do you also confirm the content of Exhibit A and do you request that the Committee would consider and incorporate the information with your application?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You were also mistaken in your affidavit with the date, not necessarily that you're mistaken but you indicated it as approximately 1988/89 while we now have a more specific date from Mr Olifant in bundle 1 page 168, that it was indeed the 29th of July 1989.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct. I will accept that.
MR VISSER: Very well. Then during the period 88 to 89 you were second in command under Pretorius, who has just given evidence and you were in this Intelligence Branch of the Security Branch in Soweto.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you then confirm the introductory evidence which he gave with regard to the general political situation and the situation of violence as well as the situation pertaining to Nceba and his group.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You refer to the relevant paragraphs, that would be 4 to 27 of the General Background and then 28 to 42 of his Exhibit B with regard to Nceba. Is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, paragraph 4.
MR VISSER: And with regard to you, there was authorisation for this particular action.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you also refer to Pretorius's written evidence, as contained within Exhibit B, in paragraphs 43 to 57.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you were informed about it.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Now with regard to the action, may I just say this, in paragraph 6 you confirmed the content of paragraphs 58 to 65, 67 and 70 to 76 and then also 78 to 80 of Exhibit B of Pretorius's evidence and the summary of his evidence?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you then also confirm up to and including paragraph 12, the content thereof.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: When you undertook the reconnaissance, can you recall whether or not Olifant was present because I see that in paragraph 10 you state that he was present.
MR STEENBERG: I cannot recall it because this is quite some time ago, but I would not dispute the matter. If he says that he was not there, or that he did not travel with us, I know that all of us reconnoitred the places.
MR VISSER: Until this morning when you heard that it was denied that he was there, were you well indeed under the impression that he was there?
MR STEENBERG: Yes.
MR VISSER: As on page 13 of Exhibit B, you accompanied Monyane and Nceba that evening to a point on the Midway railway line.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And what took place there? In paragraph 13 you have dealt with it. Just tell the Committee what you experienced there that evening.
MR STEENBERG: From a distance, I basically monitored the incident and I saw a flash, after that I heard an explosion and I realised that the limpet mine had detonated as planned. Afterwards I withdrew to the safe-house and the prearranged rendezvous point which was at Geis near Zuurbekom.
MR VISSER: Did Monyane travel with you in your vehicle?
MR STEENBERG: No, he travelled separately, I was alone in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: And then you returned independently to Geis.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And it was there that reports were made from which it appeared that the two other limpet mines had not exploded and that those two persons, Elias and Castro, had been shot dead.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What was your reaction to this news?
MR STEENBERG: Strictly speaking, I was surprised because I had expected that the limpet mines would detonate and I realised that in the same way that Col Pretorius has stated, something had to be done to the situation in order to avoid exposure of the entire operation.
MR VISSER: Can you recall whether, before you departed from Midway, that Col Pretorius gave you an order to ensure that if the limpet mine, which Nceba had, did not explode he would be shot dead?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot recall it, but from the circumstances I would have said that someone would have been able to infer this quite easily that something would have to be done because the objective was to kill them.
MR VISSER: And did they receive any weapons to take with them, that would be Moni, Lenyene and Monyane?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct. All of them received AK47s.
MR VISSER: All three of them?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And after you had decided that something had to be done, did you then firstly collect the body of Castro?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, that was near Kliptown.
MR VISSER: And what did you then do with the body?
MR STEENBERG: We took the body to Nancefield and dropped it off on the side of the road so that, because we were on our way to New Canada and if the police were to apprehend us, they would not find the body with us in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Very well. You departed and you then found Elias, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, near New Canada.
MR VISSER: And what was your impression? Was it your impression that he was still alive?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot say that because I was under the impression that he was dead.
MR VISSER: Did you examine him in any way in order to determine whether or not he was dead?
MR STEENBERG: No.
MR VISSER: You then returned to the farm Geis, is that correct?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, that was after we had once again collected the other body near Nancefield.
MR VISSER: Very well. And then at Geis you loaded certain things such as petrol and tyres.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And then you departed in the direction of Rustenburg.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Can you recall who drove ahead?
MR STEENBERG: The other members with the exception of myself and Col Pretorius, drove ahead and we issued them with a radio so that if they would run into a roadblock they would be able to notify us so that we could perhaps take a detour in order to avoid being apprehended by such persons in a roadblock.
MR VISSER: And find you then with the two bodies?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You arrived at a certain point where there was a dry river bed.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And the bodies were placed in the river bed with the tyres and the petrol and they were set alight.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Afterwards you returned. Where to?
MR STEENBERG: We returned to Midway or actually Soweto. We saw the activities taking place at the Midway explosion scene. I cannot recall precisely where we waited, but afterwards we told the people that we had information that there were a further two limpet mines at other points. We then went to assist Frans van Tonder in searching for the limpet mine at New Canada. We found it and after we had found it, Col Pretorius and I went to Kliptown section. We looked for the limpet mine there at the exchange box, after which I diffused the bomb by means of a control detonation.
MR VISSER: Are you also a demolitions expert?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you ever return to the place where the bodies were destroyed?
MR STEENBERG: No, I will never be able to find the place again.
MR VISSER: And on the evening when you were at the various scenes, for example at Midway and Kliptown and New Canada, did you see Grobelaar there?
MR STEENBERG: Yes, he was at the scene at Midway, but I cannot recall whether he was at New Canada. It is possible that he was there.
MR VISSER: But he was definitely at Midway as far as you know? He was aware of the operation to eliminate these three activists.
MR STEENBERG: No, not at all. He was definitely not aware of it.
MR VISSER: Because you say in paragraph 26 that you realise that you have made yourself liable for a number of crimes and delicts such as defeating the ends of justice, conspiracy to murder, murder, accessory after the facts, illegal possession and application of firearms and explosive devices and possible other crimes and delicts.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What do you have to say about the allegations of Olifant, that he received money. Chairperson, I wonder whether that issue hasn't been sorted out? The issue of the money, I think that's been sorted out. Thank you. And then you have also set out in paragraph 29 to 32 what your political objectives were that you sought to achieve.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And how you perceived your situation during the struggle of the past.
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And you then request amnesty as it has been set out?
MR STEENBERG: That is correct.
MR VISSER: As it pleases you, Chairperson, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van der Merwe.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Madam Chair, I have no questions for this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loader.
MR LOADER: May it please you Madam Chair, there's just one aspect and that again relates to;
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOADER: Mr Steenberg, your knowledge surrounding whether or not specific instructions were given inter alia to Mr Moni and Mr Lengene and Monyane, as to what ought to be done in the event of the limpet mine if it would not to detonate. What were the specific instructions that you recall?
MR STEENBERG: I never heard Col Pretorius tell anybody that if the limpet mine did not detonate, the people could be shot, but seen in the light of the fact that these persons had been issued with AK47s and in the light of the fact that it was our objective to kill these persons, to me there is a reality that these persons may have assumed, or that they may have deduced the idea from something that Col Pretorius said. I cannot testify and say that I actually heard Mr Pretorius say, "Listen, if the limpets don't work", just as he gave evidence previously, the limpet mines had to work. There wasn't any question about that according to me. Because the limpet mines had not worked, I was just as surprised as anybody else to hear that they had malfunctioned. I never thought that the mines wouldn't work, but I never heard Pretorius tell anybody that if the limpet mines malfunctioned, they could shoot these persons, but I accept this in the light...
CHAIRPERSON: If an opinion is being sought from you, such a question will be put to you, otherwise just confine yourself to the question that has been put to you. You did not hear any instruction from Mr Pretorius in this regard, that's what you have to say.
MR STEENBERG: No, I did not hear anything like that.
CHAIRPERSON: Confine yourself to questions being put to you. If an opinion is being sought from you, counsel will indicate that he wishes you to give an opinion and if you think that it's a reasonable opinion for your to formulate we'll allow him an opportunity to seek that kind of opinion from you otherwise we only want facts.
MR STEENBERG: I take the amendment to heart and I will not go off like that again.
MR LOADER: In other words, am I correct in assuming that if you were shocked about what had happened after the incident, you were not really shocked about the fact that the activists were shot dead, but you were more shocked about the fact that the limpet mines had malfunctioned, is that what shocked or surprised you?
MR STEENBERG: Well I cannot really give a yes or a no answer here, may I just say something? I was shocked by the circumstances which led the limpet mines to malfunction and created a whole new set of circumstances, that was the reason.
MR LOADER: If you'll grant me a moment Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may be granted. Whilst counsel is still trying to get further instructions from Mr Moni, may I just find out, during your evidence in chief you were quite firm that Grobelaar did not know, nor was he aware of this operation for which you are now seeking amnesty. How sure are you? How do you know that he wasn't aware? Did you discuss this with Grobelaar subsequent to the occurrence of this incident?
MR STEENBERG: No, because if he had known about it, one would have realised that by means of his conduct or something that he had said and by nature of the situation we would not have cleared any such matters with him because he was basically a Commander just like Pretorius, on a relatively equal level even though he may have had a higher rank. It wasn't necessary for us to have any clearance from him, or any approval from him for such an operation. I would say no,, because no mention was made by him or by anybody else that he knew about it and it was never told to him in my presence.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LOADER: I'm indebted, Madam Chair. I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOADER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Loader. Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Steenberg are you aware whether Mr Grobelaar was the officer on duty that evening?
MR STEENBERG: I cannot say.
MR LAMEY: If he had been the officer on duty, don't you think that he must have known what was going on?
MR MALAN: Mr Lamey didn't you deal with this with the previous witness. Is it really necessary to put this hypothesis to this witness once again?
MR LAMEY: Very well, I will then leave it at that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey we don't want to interfere with your cross-examination but what value will his response be, I mean he is a junior officer. You've put this hypothesis to a person much senior, the person who was his Commander, Mr Pretorius.
MR LAMEY: As it pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: We just don't want to be unfair and interfere with your cross-examination, by the same token, we just don't want to allow what would ultimately be of no value to us in ultimately deciding whether to grant Mr Steenberg amnesty or not, particularly where this issue has already been appropriately covered with Mr Pretorius.
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Chairperson. But you did not have any personal knowledge, whatever you say with regard to the knowledge of Grobelaar, that as far as you know he did not.
MR STEENBERG: Yes, that is so, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Heerden.
MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you Madam Chair, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions to put to Mr Steenberg?
MR MALAN: I don't have anything, thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata.
ADV MOTATA: I've got none, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you wish to re-examine at all?
MR VISSER: Yes, but I have no questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Steenberg, you may step down as a witness.
MR STEENBERG: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser I know I have indicated to you that I will prefer to go along with the suggestion I shared with you earlier this morning, but considering the fact that we still have an hour, it's 4 o'clock, we are going to request the indulgence of our translators to afford us an opportunity to stay a little longer. I don't think the evidence of Mr Nienaber is going to be that long, so we would be happy if you'd proceed and complete all the applicants for whom you appear.
MR VISSER: Certainly, Chairperson. I take it that all my colleagues are also available to sit after 4, I'm not sure, but they will object if they're not. Could I call Gen Nienaber?
