Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: We deal now with the applications in respect of the killing of Mr Lubane. We have concluded hearing viva voce evidence in respect of the applicants, Mr Prinsloo and Mr More. Who are we going to commence with this morning?

MR JOUBERT: Madam Chair, if I may. Mr Mathebula will be the following witness. He'll be testifying in Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mathebula, you'll be giving your evidence in seTswana.

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.

SMUTS PHILEMON MATHEBULA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Motata. You may take a seat, Mr Mathebula. You may commence, Mr Joubert.

EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr Mathebula, you have given evidence before this Amnesty Committee on more than one occasion, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: And your political motives, the situation in which you found yourself at the stage of these incidents, has been fully canvassed, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Now relating to this specific incident which you are testifying about, your application from pages 128 to 132, deals with this specific incident. Do you confirm the content thereof?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: There are certain issues in this application which I would like to address and for you to provide the Committee with clarity. If we refer to page 129 of your application, it's still part of paragraph 1 which starts on the previous page, the third or fourth line from the bottom, you state

"Later I heard that this was the farm of Paul van Vuuren's father."

Is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Did you know whether this was indeed Paul van Vuuren's father's farm or was this merely something that you heard along the line?

MR MATHEBULA: It's something I heard.

MR JOUBERT: Then in paragraph 2 on the same page, more-or-less in the middle of that paragraph, where it pertains to the interrogation of Comrade X, you state that

"During interrogation he was assaulted with clenched fists and he was also kicked against his body and suffocated with an inner tube by me and Capt Prinsloo."

Now the context in which this has been stated here, indicates that Capt Prinsloo was present and involved in this assault, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Prinsloo was present, but at the time I was kicking, maybe he was somewhere in the house because it was a big house.

MR JOUBERT: If I understand you correctly then this is merely an indication of what transpired there, it's not the exact detail pertaining to the assault as such. There may have been instances where you and Capt Prinsloo may not have been together during this interrogation, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: You have heard the evidence of Capt Prinsloo and of Const More, pertaining to a pen and a piece of paper which was handed to Mr Lubane, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Do you have any personal knowledge of this pen and paper?

MR MATHEBULA: I've no knowledge because I did not observe that.

MR JOUBERT: Now Mr More testified that at the stage when Mr Lubane was taken onto the stoep of the house and given the Amstel, thereafter yourself, Mr More, Mr Matjeni and Sgt Mbatha were sent to go and buy beer. Is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: And upon your return from this excursion you found Mr Prinsloo and other members of the Police Force in the veld, close to the house, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: In your application on page 131, at the top, you indicated that this was approximately 60 metres from the house. Could it have been further?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that it may be more than 60 metres.

MR JOUBERT: Upon your return to the scene, the evidence was given by Mr More and this is also set out in your application, that you were requested by someone to assist in looking around for certain evidence or certain pieces of flesh that may be lying around, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Were you at all informed of what had happened to Petrus Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: Nobody informed us about what happened to him.

MR JOUBERT: What did you assume had happened?

MR MATHEBULA: I thought he was killed.

MR JOUBERT: And thereafter you returned to the house, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Mr More has testified, and you also set this out in your application, at that house you had, or some of the people had beer to drink, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Can you specifically state who partook in this drinking of the beer, or was it just some of the members?

MR MATHEBULA: I would not know who drank what amount of liquor, but there was liquor which was drank generally, but I'm not able to state who drank how much.

MR JOUBERT: And is it after this or during the period, that the decision was taken to remove the Ford Cortina and to go and have this burnt?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: Now the evidence is that you were the person who drove the Cortina to the scene where it was burnt. Can you recall whether you were in fact the driver?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that I was the driver, or Jerry Matjeni. It's possible that it would be me. I would not dispute that fact.

MR JOUBERT: And is it then correct also that you gave the indication as to the scene to which the Cortina had to be taken, where it was burnt. Is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson, I'm the one who pointed out that place.

MR JOUBERT: And after the vehicle had been torched, your application indicates that you all returned to your homes, is that correct?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOUBERT: I have no further questions to Mr Mathebula, thank you Madam Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Joubert. Mr Jansen, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?

MR JANSEN: None, thank you Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Mathebula, you state in your affidavit that Mr Prinsloo interrogated Mr Lubane about the Magistrate's Court in Johannesburg. I put it to you that he did not put any questions in that regard, pertaining to the explosion at the Magistrate's Court. He wasn't even involved with that case, Capt Deetliefs from John Vorster Square in Johannesburg was investigating that matter. Do you have anything to say about this?

MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well he was asked about that issue.

ADV PRINSLOO: But there was no reason for Capt Prinsloo to interrogate him about an explosion at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court, because he wasn't investigating the matter and therefore he wasn't involved in it. Are you not confusing Capt Prinsloo with somebody else within another matter?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible because there were many things which we were investigating, but if I remember well I think he was interrogated about that issue.

ADV PRINSLOO: And what may have contributed to your confusion is that you state in your affidavit that Capt Steenkamp visited the place during the interrogation, and as you know Capt Steenkamp was from the Springs Security Branch at that stage. Did you know that he was from there, from Springs, Capt Steenkamp?

CHAIRPERSON: He says that, Mr Prinsloo, in paragraph 3 at page 130, that members of the Springs and Germiston Security Branch were present.

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, they were present.

ADV PRINSLOO: I would just like to put the following to him. I would like to put it to you that Capt Steenkamp in no way visited Capt Prinsloo with regard to the interrogation of Mr Lubane, he came to see him about a completely different matter. Would you be able to dispute this?

MR MATHEBULA: I would not dispute that because they used to come and talk to Capt Prinsloo. I don't know about other issues which they were discussing.

ADV PRINSLOO: And as I understood your evidence with regard to the kicking, mention is also made that the man was suffocated with an inner tube. You heard Capt Prinsloo's evidence and he stated that he slapped the man and that he never saw the man being kicked or suffocated with an inner tube, nor did he perform any such actions himself. What do you say about that?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that he was not present at that particular time, but I took part in that assault. He may not have seen what happened.

ADV PRINSLOO: And inasfar as it involves the place where this person was blown up, according to Capt Prinsloo the hole was not filled up. A crater was caused by the explosion and there was no reason to cover or to fill the hole.

MR MATHEBULA: What I remember is that we had some shovels, then at the time when they were asking us that we should look around to look for some pieces of flesh, they were busy filling up the hole.

ADV PRINSLOO: Are you aware that there were two explosions in order to destroy the body completely?

MR MATHEBULA: I would be lying because I didn't know what happened, even with the first explosion. I don't know as to whether it was one or two explosions.

ADV PRINSLOO: And Capt Prinsloo has no recollection that he ever asked you whether or not you were afraid as you have stated in your application. That's just by the way, it's nothing serious really.

Just a moment's indulgence, please Chairperson. Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van der Walt?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.

So you put it in your affidavit on page 130, paragraph 3, that you and Jerry were on the farm all the time and that your primary task was to guard the person there. I put it to you that Mr Bester and Mr Jerry guarded the person, that it was their task. They remained with him all the time that he spent on the farm. Do you have anything to say about that?

MR MATHEBULA: I remember about Bester, but myself and Jerry were busy guarding that person and we were giving him food and water.

MS VAN DER WALT: I put it to you further that Mr Bester slept in the same room as the deceased and that it was his task to guard him on such a basis of urgency. Do you have any comment about that?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't dispute that. That's why I'm saying I began to recollect about his presence there from yesterday.

MS VAN DER WALT: Nothing further, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Mr van Heerden?

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, before I come to you, Mr van Heerden, I have omitted to request the legal representatives of Mr Strydom and Mr Cronje to cross-examine Mr Mathebula. It's just that I didn't see Mr du Plessis' face. Do you have any questions to put to Mr Mathebula?

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Heerden?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr Mathebula, you state that members from Springs and Germiston Security Branch interrogated the deceased. Can you recall this clearly?

MR MATHEBULA: I remember about Steenkamp, that he was present because at the time when I was working at Vlakplaas, we used to go to him. He came, but I don't remember when he talked to the deceased but he usually came to talk to Capt Prinsloo, though I don't know the content of their discussion.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Can you recall that he interrogated the deceased?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember. It is possible that he interrogated the deceased, but I remember that he was present at the farm.

MR VAN HEERDEN: You state in your affidavit that the was interrogated by members of the Springs Security Branch, to which other members are you referring?

MR MATHEBULA: As I've already stated, Capt Steenkamp was present. They used to talk to Capt Prinsloo. I thought maybe they were interrogating him.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Which members of the Germiston Security Branch were present?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember their identity, but I knew that they were present and then we were informed that they were from Germiston Security Branch. I don't remember their names.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Can you recall that they conducted an interrogation of the deceased?

MR MATHEBULA: As I've already stated that it is possible that they interrogated the deceased. We used to guard him, the three of us. At times I would be alone, at times Jerry would be alone, at times Bester would be alone. So we would not know what they are talking about with the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr van Heerden.

In your application you stated as a fact that they participated in Mr Lubane's interrogation. Would you have been mistaken?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that I made a mistake, but I remember that they were present and they used to have a discussion with the deceased but I don't know about what.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't witness any interrogation by members of Germiston and Springs Security Branch Police?

MR MATHEBULA: I saw him talking to him. I would say that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean you saw him talking to him? Are you referring to a member of the Springs and Germiston Security Branch?

MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well, Capt Steenkamp from Springs and together with members of the Springs(sic) Security Branch, they came together at the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you witness any interrogation or any discussion being held by any member of the Springs and Germiston Security Branch with Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, I observed that discussion, but I didn't know what about.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did this discussion take place with Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: Inside the room where we were sleeping together with the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you in the same room during the discussion?

MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well, yes I was present in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you hear what the discussion was all about?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember well, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Lubane, during this discussion, manhandled in any way by a member of the Springs and Germiston Security Branch?

MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did this discussion take place?

MR MATHEBULA: Approximately 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: 20 minutes.

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson, approximately 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And during that time you were in the room with Mr Lubane.

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, I was. That room is too big and then when you are just on the door you are able to observe everything.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't say whether it was an interrogation or not?

MR MATHEBULA: I'm not able to say that it was an interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding the fact that you observed this discussion for 20 full minutes?

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr van Heerden.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

What injuries did the deceased sustain?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR MATHEBULA: He didn't have any injuries.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Can you recall where this farm is situated?

MR MATHEBULA: I knew that it was near the Rust-de-winter road. I know the road towards that area, but I'm not able to point that particular farm.

MR VAN HEERDEN: You've heard the evidence of Capt Prinsloo that there were two explosions, were you present at all times at the scene?

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the evidence, Mr van Heerden.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Excuse me, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: That's not his evidence. He wasn't present at the scene, he came back.

MR VAN HEERDEN: That is now Mr Mathebula?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's his evidence.

MR VAN HEERDEN: I'll then leave it there, Madam Chair, thank you. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to put further questions to Mr Mathebula?

MR VAN HEERDEN: No further questions, thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Madam Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Mathebula, in paragraph 2 on page 129, the very final line, there you state

"He made no admissions during interrogation."

Do you state by that that you obtained no information from Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: During my presence I don't remember him responding to any question. During my presence I don't remember him responding to any question. During my presence I don't remember him responding or saying anything during the interrogation.

MR MALAN: Can you recall what was put to him?

MR MATHEBULA: I'm not able to recollect about the questions, Chairperson. That is why I just wrote about the explosions. I think that is the only issue I remember.

MR MALAN: Did you participate in the interrogation?

MR MATHEBULA: Yes, there are times where I questioned him, but I did not take long.

MR MALAN: Can you recall what you interrogated him about?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember as to whether it was about Johannesburg or about Wachthuis, as it has already been stated here.

MR MALAN: Do you have no recollection of Wachthuis?

MR MATHEBULA: It is possible that I questioned him about Wachthuis. It is possible that I did.

MR MALAN: My question is whether or not you have any recollection that Wachthuis was ever mentioned during the interrogation. Can you recall Wachthuis in any way as a part of your interrogation?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Do you have no recollection of information which you possessed, indicating that they proposed to blow up Wachthuis?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember anything because Kenny More was engaged in that all the time, because I did not know what was happening.

MR MALAN: And then just with regard to the explosions. You state that you did not hear any explosion.

MR MATHEBULA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And you can recall that the hole was filled up after you arrived there, and you are completely certain that you were requested to help search and that someone picked up a piece of meat.

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Are you not perhaps mistaken with regard to that?

MR MATHEBULA: No, Chairperson, I'm not mistaken. As Capt Prinsloo has already stated that I was scared.

MR MALAN: Capt Prinsloo states that he cannot recall that you were frightened, but on page 131 you state that Dos Santos told you that you were to search the vicinity for pieces of meat or flesh. Is that what Dos Santos requested you to do when you arrived there?

MR MATHEBULA: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Now I just want some clarity, Mr Mathebula, about this assault in the house. You say it was a big house. I want to know whether you were taking turns in assaulting him or what was the position when he was assaulted during interrogation? Were you all around him asking questions, assaulting him, or were you taking turns in doing so?

MR MATHEBULA: He was not surrounded by many people. Capt Prinsloo, when he was interrogating that person, he didn't want many people to be around there, he only wanted two or three people to be around during the interrogation.

ADV MOTATA: Could you recall how many were around him then, when you say about two or three?

MR MATHEBULA: If I remember well there were three.

ADV MOTATA: Then we know yourself and Capt Prinsloo, who could the third one be?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember, Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Madam Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathebula, you have indicated that you can't remember if Mr Prinsloo participated in the assault on Mr Lubane in the manner that you have described in your affidavit at paragraph 2. Mention has been made by you that an inner tube was used to suffocate Mr Lubane during the alleged assault or torture. Can you recall who used the inner tube to suffocate Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: I don't remember well, it's possible that I was responsible for using the tube.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you had used the tube, isn't it something that you should be able to remember?

MR MATHEBULA: I was not alone in that room, that's why I'm suggesting that I may be responsible for the tubing.

CHAIRPERSON: To the best of your recollection, what kind of assault did you cause to be inflicted on, or what was the nature of your participation during Mr Lubane's interrogation?

MR MATHEBULA: Fists and open hand.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what you participated in?

MR MATHEBULA: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you stated that he was suffocated by an inner tube, did you say that as a fact or it's something that you were merely mentioning but you couldn't remember to have happened?

MR MATHEBULA: The tubing method was used, but I not able to remember who was responsible for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now at whose request did you participate in the interrogation and assault on Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: Mainly you would not do anything without the authorisation or the instructions of Capt Prinsloo, you would not do that on your own initiative. I think it was through the instructions of Capt Prinsloo.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you thinking or you know this as a fact, that you were requested by Capt Prinsloo to participate in both the interrogation and the assault of Mr Lubane?

MR MATHEBULA: As I've already state that because Capt Prinsloo was our commander, you would not do anything without his authorisation, request or instruction. Though I don't remember that he instructed me directly to take part.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you stated that you and Mr Matjeni conducted a later interrogation on Mr Lubane, after he had initially been assaulted, which assaulted included the suffocation by means of an inner tube. Are you sure that Mr Matjeni was also involved in Mr Lubane's interrogation?

MR MATHEBULA: When I talk about the assault it was on the first day when he arrived at the farm, after that he was not assaulted again.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about the assault, I'm talking about the interrogation. In your affidavit you say that after he had been assaulted you and Mr Matjeni again interrogated Mr Lubane. You see that that is what you say on page 129, paragraph 2, and that is the fifth or fourth line from the bottom.

MR MATHEBULA: It is correct. There was a time where we asked him about general questions, then I learnt that he was staying at 181 at Katlehong and that he was employed at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert, do you have any re-examination?

MR JOUBERT: I have no re-examination, thank you Madam Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mathebula, you are excused as a witness.

MR MATHEBULA: Thank you, Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I call Mr Dos Santos.