KIMPANI PETER MOGOAI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mogoai, you have applied for amnesty to the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for several incidents in which you were involved, including also the incident presently before this Committee, namely the incident concerning Mr Mngomezulu, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: If we just have a look at the bundle, is it correct that you were approached as a State witness initially and that there was an initial amnesty application, which we find on page 27 to 31, which was drafted and submitted to the TRC with the assistance of the staff of the Attorney-General, is that correct? And which was dated the 9th of December 1996. Is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, then I've noted that there is on page 50 a short summary of incidents, I think it's just out of sequence here. I just want to take the applicant to that page before I get to the more detailed supplementary application.
Mr Mogoai, is it also correct that after you obtained legal representation there were short particulars submitted to the TRC for the incidents that you seek amnesty for, as we find on page 50, under the understanding that further particulars would be provided after you had an opportunity to consult with your legal representative, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: Then your more detailed application, is it correct that it starts on page 32 of the bundle before the Committee and then continues in this extract up to page 49, and it was signed by you on the 9th of July 1997, as it occurs on page 49, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: You've also signed the form on page 36, before a Commissioner of Oaths, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: And then you'll find on pages 37 to 39, before the Mngomezulu incidents starts, there's a background about you becoming a member of the Security Police, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: The gist of that without going into detail, is that you were, when you became a member of the Security Police, you became what they called an askari to distinguish you from original police members because you'd been previously a member of the ANC and MK, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I've noted that on page 39 there is a portion deleted in black. As far as it might be relevant, I just want to say if you could just also incorporate that as part of the background in his amnesty application.
CHAIRPERSON: That's paragraph 2.8.
MR LAMEY: Ja, it is part of 2.7, 2.8 and 2.9. Thank you.
Then the particulars regarding this incident next the relevant questions of the form, we find on page 39, 40, 41 and up to 43, Mr Mogoai, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: And do you confirm that to be correct, also subject to the further supplementary statement to which we will come in a moment?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: And also subject to further evidence viva voce that you will give here, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mogoai, is it also then correct that in the - prior to the start of this particular hearing and during preparation for this particular hearing, there were further consultations which necessitated a supplementary statement, which I am showing now to you?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Sir.
MR LAMEY: And which you have signed, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, I have signed it, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: The date has been omitted here, but is it correct that this was signed during the morning of 8 November 1999, earlier this week?
MR MOGOAI: It was signed on the 8th of November, it was on a Monday this year.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I just want to make sure whether you also have the document before you. I am not sure whether the original is before you, it appears what I have here is also a copy still left.
CHAIRPERSON: I think I must have the original because the other Members of my Committee are in possession of the supplementary statement, but I am not, which should be in one of my papers. You may proceed.
MR LAMEY: As the Chair pleases.
And you have read this supplementary statement and you confirm here under oath that it is to the best of your ability true and correct, is that so?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Sir.
MR LAMEY: With your leave, Chairperson, I'm not going to lead Mr Mogoai in any detail, I just want to stop here and there.
Mr Mogoai, in your supplementary statement you also elaborated further and said that during that first interrogation session which took place at this particular place near Piet Retief, there was a short interrogation of about 10 to 15 minutes, if you may estimate it, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: And you further stated that he was also assaulted during that period, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Sir.
MR LAMEY: Can you just tell the Committee, did you assault him yourself?
MR MALAN: Mr Lamey, has he not said that in the supplementary statement and wasn't that the purpose? I mean really, why do we have to lead it viva voce?
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Chairperson. I wasn't sure whether his particular act was stated in so much detail in the supplementary statement. As it pleases you.
CHAIRPERSON: You really particularised. He slapped and kicked and the assault took approximately 10 to 15 minutes. I think those are sufficient details.
MR LAMEY: Ja. As it pleases you, Chairperson.
Mr Mogoai, can you recall when he was taken - I'm referring now to Mr Mngomezulu, to this other place near the Josini dam, was it the same evening after the interrogation at this place near Piet Retief, or what is your recollection there?
MR MOGOAI: It was at the very same night after having been interrogated at that place in Piet Retief, because I'm not so well - I do not know that place very well, but after having interrogated him shortly, the same night he was taken to Piet Retief dam where there was that deserted house where we were that night.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, the translation came through as Piet Retief dam.
CHAIRPERSON: It must be Josini.
INTERPRETER: Josini dam, I beg your pardon Chair.
MR LAMEY: Now after arriving there, could you just tell, was the interrogation commenced or how did it happen further? I'm talking about this place near Josini dam.
MR MOGOAI: On our arrival there at Josini dam we took him out of the kombi into a room. It was candle lit. There were two beds in that room. He was put on the floor and that is when the interrogation started. I was called by the white officers to come and ask him questions, but I cannot exactly say who called me. But all I kept on hearing was "Piet, as him and tell him that we know that he was in Manzini". They kept on saying "Piet, ask him." That is when I continued to ask the questions in that manner.
When he responded or answered and they were not satisfied with his answers, he would be kicked and punched. Whilst he was being beaten like that he would be hitting against the walls and landing and hitting against the bed frame as well. At some stage he will be on the floor and he would faint and they would leave him at that stage. This carried on, I am not sure for how long because it was late at night and we went to sleep.
The following morning we started again with the interrogation, mainly we wanted to know about the senior PAC officials that it was alleged that he had contact with, that they were staying in Manzini or Mbabane. It was enquired of him as to what was the discussion between him and these people and as to whether they have handed him weapons already.
Most of the time Mr Mngomezulu would not respond, he would just shake his head. He did not respond well to the questions and when he did that, that is when he would be kicked and beaten up.
MR LAMEY: Can I just stop you there. Did you also assault him during these interrogation bouts?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, I punched him in the face whilst he was being interrogated.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mgade has - if I could just get his statement, has stated on paragraph 34 of page 18 over to 19, that he recalls that you were also busy with the interrogation and that he thought that you were the main interrogator. Now I'm not exactly sure what Mr Mgade means by the main interrogator and the precise context in which he says that, but what is your comment about that statement? Were you instructed to interrogate and ask questions to Mr Mngomezulu, relatively more than other black members?
MR MOGOAI: This surprises me because how could I be the main interrogator because I was an askari? But I will respond to that question. Most of the time the white officers would tell me to ask Mr Mngomezulu questions. Even though I did not know how to talk the Swazi or the Zulu language, but I was the one who was given the orders to ask him the questions most of the time. I think that is why he says that I was the main interrogator, because I was the one who was instructed most of the time.
MR LAMEY: Okay. And in what language did you speak to Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: It was just a mixture of Zulu and Xhosa, because I do not know both languages well.
MR LAMEY: Now in your statement you have made reference to the presence of - if I can just take you back to paragraph 9, to the presence of certain members there at this interrogation period there at Josini dam. Now do you confirm what you've stated there? I just want to, specifically with - do you want to confirm that?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, I confirm that, I confirm that, Chairperson, but I just have a doubt regarding one person because I was not working most of the time with these people. I doubt Steve Bosch, I'm not so certain about him, but the rest I can confirm that they were present. They might not have been present simultaneously, but they kept on coming and going at that place. But I confirm that their presence was there.
MR LAMEY: You have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock here, that he was not at all present. What is your evidence in this regard?
MR MOGOAI: I saw him there, I saw Mr de Kock there.
MR LAMEY: Did he do anything that you in particular remember?
MR MOGOAI: Whilst I was instructed to interrogate there was a moment when we were taking a break and Col de Kock arrived and he asked me if we got anything from this man and I responded by saying "No, we didn't get anything from him", and he said that he will try and remind this man and he approached this man whilst he was sitting down and he punched him in his genitals. Mr Mngomezulu screamed, he was screaming due to pain. And he left thereafter and he said that after some time he should be able to talk.
MR LAMEY: Now was Mr Mngomezulu at a certain stage left, when the interrogation stopped?
INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question?
MR LAMEY: Was Mr Mngomezulu at a certain stage left?
MR MOGOAI: If I can recall clearly, whilst he was being beaten against the wall and against the bed frame, he would be silent and be motionless. I think he fainted twice during that period whilst we were interrogating him.
MR LAMEY: May I just ask you this, did the interrogation at a certain stage stop?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, there were times when it would stop.
MR LAMEY: Yes, but ultimately, was there a point where it would stop? - while you were present.
MR MOGOAI: Yes, the interrogation stopped, but everybody went outside at some stage and we were all standing outside and the white officials remained inside and they went into that room.
MR LAMEY: Okay. When was the last time that you saw Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: When we left there after having gone outside, that was the last time I saw him.
MR LAMEY: Was that now during the night or the morning?
MR MOGOAI: It was in the morning.
MR LAMEY: And where was Mr Mngomezulu at that stage?
MR MOGOAI: He was in that room where he was being interrogated, where he was kept. He seemed to have fainted because he was resting on the bed frame, facing the wall. His head was slightly slanted.
MR LAMEY: Now can you - there has been mention made that his head was covered, what is your recollection in this regard?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, I remember that. Even when he was being moved from another house to the dam, he was being covered. His face was covered with a white cloth.
MR LAMEY: Was this cover with the white cloth, what is your recollection, was it the whole time on or were there stages that it was off?
MR MOGOAI: There were times - it is not that the cloth will be removed, but due to the beatings and the bumping around the cloth would fall off and it would be loose but it would always be replaced again.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Certainly, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that Mr Mngomezulu was interrogated whilst he had this white cloth over his face?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson. That is so.
CHAIRPERSON: And this was the case during your participation of his interrogation.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And his face remained covered and the only time when the cover was off his face was when it would fall off because of the assault.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And he would again be covered and an interrogation would continue whilst his face was covered.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Now after you last saw Mr Mngomezulu in that room, did you get any instructions after that?
MR MOGOAI: They called W/O Koole and informed him that we may go back to our bases in Piet Retief.
MR LAMEY: Now what time of the day was that?
MR MOGOAI: Around 11 to 12 o'clock, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And did you go back as requested, as instructed?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, we went back.
MR LAMEY: Did you know at the time of making your application for amnesty, what happened further to Mr Mngomezulu, or any time after you last saw him did you learn what happened to him?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I don't know what happened to him thereafter.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I'm not going to repeat this, Mr Mogoai has already confirmed also what is stated on page 42 and 43.
Just one aspect which I almost forgot. You've heard the evidence of Mr de Kock that he was told that you made use during interrogation of a barbed wire. I'm not going to repeat the detail again, but you've heard that evidence, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson. I want to put it before this Committee, Chairperson, that I was surprised by this evidence and then in front of God and before all people who were present, I swear by my forefathers that is the thing which I will never think of doing and I did not do that.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Hattingh?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mogoai, you state in your statement that you were instructed by your Commanding Officer, Brig McIntyre, to accompany Mr Beeslaar to Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did he tell you what you had to go and do there?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, he did not tell me what we're going to do, he only told me to prepare myself, to take enough clothes for three ... to a week and then I should meet Mr Beeslaar, I'm going to go with him. He didn't even explain where we were going, but he just said I'm going with him.
MR HATTINGH: And when you met up with Mr Beeslaar, did you ask him where you were going and what you were going to do?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I did not.
MR HATTINGH: Weren't you curious to know what you were going to do or where you were going?
MR MOGOAI: Our culture as askaris, we were just instructed that we should take your things and leave. We were only following instructions, there was no opportunity to question the instructions.
MR HATTINGH: Were you still attached to Vlakplaas at that stage or were you working permanently at head office under Brig McIntyre?
MR MOGOAI: I was working with McIntyre, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: For how long had you been working with him when you received these instructions?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember how long, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Was it a matter of days, weeks, months or what?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember, Chairperson. At times I would be placed at the farm, at times I would be placed at the various places, so I'm a little bit confused about the whole procedure and the duration which I stayed at the head office.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Can you recall on what day of the week you left for Piet Retief with Mr Beeslaar?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You heard him say it was a Saturday, can you dispute that?
MR MOGOAI: I would not dispute that, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And what time did you arrive at Piet Retief?
MR MOGOAI: It was at dusk, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then you say in your statement that he went into the offices of the Security Police at Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you remain in the car?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, I remained in the car, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And for how long was he away?
MR MOGOAI: He did not take long, he came and a kombi arrived.
MR HATTINGH: Where did this kombi come from?
MR MOGOAI: Maybe it belonged to the people who were around in Piet Retief, but I don't know where it came from, but it didn't come somewhere near there. I don't know where it came from. It belonged to the group which was working in Piet Retief.
MR HATTINGH: It didn't come from the police premises did it?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did it stop where you were sitting in your vehicle?
MR MOGOAI: It stopped on the side on the street. We were on the other side of the street and it stopped on the other side of the street just parallel with our car.
MR HATTINGH: And at that time, was Beeslaar back at your vehicle already?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember as to whether he was with whom at that time, but it was at the time when he was exiting the police gate towards the car, then he told me that I should take my belongings and go to the kombi. Then I left with them.
MR HATTINGH: And who was in this kombi?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember well, Chairperson, but I think it's Nzimande Moses, Mgade, Mbelo. I'm not able to remember all of them because I was not working with them anymore, so I forget the identity of those who were in the kombi.
MR HATTINGH: Alright. So you then went to this place, I think you describe it in your statement - you went to a type of caravan-type of house some distance outside Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you know what you were going to do there?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you didn't ask.
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I did not ask.
MR HATTINGH: And it must have been dark when you arrived there.
MR MOGOAI: Yes it was dark, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then when you arrived there were there any white police officers present at this place?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, they were not present.
MR HATTINGH: Did some white police officials eventually arrive?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson, they arrived later. Let me explain shortly. When we arrived at that caravan house we were in a group, there were two kombis, so we were in two groups though we were in the same group. Many of those who were there I don't remember their identities, but all of them were black members.
MR HATTINGH: And you had a meal there and you sat around chatting to one another when some white police officials arrived, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Who arrived?
MR MOGOAI: Firstly it was Mr van Dyk together with Mr Pienaar. I'm not able to recollect who were other members of the white members who came later.
MR HATTINGH: In your original statement you mention the name of Bosch.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson, I mentioned Steve Bosch.
MR HATTINGH: Did he arrive?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I think I was mistaken because I was confusing him.
MR HATTINGH: Now Mr Koole who is also represented by Mr Lamey as you are, made the same mistake, he also said Mr Bosch was there. Are you aware of that?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then he made a supplementary affidavit in which he said that he wasn't certain as to whether Mr Bosch was there, he had no recollection of him being there, words to that effect. Are you aware of that?
MR MOGOAI: Do you mean in regard to Koole's evidence?
MR HATTINGH: In a supplementary statement which I assume was drafted by Mr Lamey on his behalf, Mr Koole said in paragraph 7
"In paragraph 6 I mention Steve Bosch. I cannot with certainty that Steve Bosch was indeed present."
The last sentence -
"I however do not have an independent recollection that he was indeed there."
So he rectified or clarified something which he said in his original statement in the supplementary affidavit. You also made a supplementary affidavit, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you say in your supplementary affidavit that you aren't certain about the fact as to whether Mr Bosch was there or not?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I did not state that.
MR HATTINGH: Why not?
MR MOGOAI: Perhaps I thought that Mr Bosch was present because I don't know them that well, so I thought Mr Bosch was present and I was mistaken.
MR HATTINGH: You've heard the evidence of Mr Beeslaar, to the effect that when you arrived in Piet Retief he went to Mr Pienaar's house, were you present when he went to Mr Pienaar's house?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know where Mr Pienaar was staying at that time.
MR HATTINGH: Did he go to any private home in Piet Retief whilst you were in his company?
MR MOGOAI: He left, I don't know where he went. He knows Piet Retief well, more than I do, so I didn't know where he went to.
MR HATTINGH: Where were you when he left?
MR MOGOAI: That is the time when I boarded the kombi.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now are you certain that you saw Mr de Kock there on this particular day, Mr Mogoai?
MR MOGOAI: I'm able to recollect, Chairperson
MR HATTINGH: Alright. Let me take you back to the caravan at that place near Piet Retief. You said some white policemen arrived, did other people thereafter also arrive there?
MR MOGOAI: At what time, Chairperson?
MR HATTINGH: After the whites arrived.
MR MOGOAI: After that, Mr de Kock arrived.
MR HATTINGH: But before Mr de Kock's arrival. You told us that van Dyk arrived, Pienaar arrived, did anybody arrive after the arrived there and before Mr de Kock arrived?
MR MOGOAI: Mr Beeslaar arrived.
MR HATTINGH: Did he arrive alone?
MR MOGOAI: I'm confusing the facts here. He came together with van Dyk.
MR HATTINGH: He came with van Dyk?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, again with Pienaar, he came with van Dyk and Pienaar.
MR HATTINGH: So van Dyk, Pienaar and Beeslaar arrived there, not van Dyk, Pienaar and Bosch, as you originally stated in your application?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know as to whether I would say he came with them, I don't know as to whether it's Bosch or whom. I don't know his name.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, but now - alright, let's forget about the whites now, did somebody else arrive after they arrived there and before Mr de Kock arrived?
MR MOGOAI: You mean white members?
MR HATTINGH: Any person, white or black.
MR MOGOAI: After that Mbelo, Koole, they came together with a certain person. I don't know how many they were. Then they put that person in that house. I did not know that person then, but later I learnt that it was Mngomezulu.
MR HATTINGH: Did they put him inside the caravan-type of house?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you also go in?
MR MOGOAI: All of us entered that caravan.
MR HATTINGH: And did the questioning of this person then commence?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson. I want to explain a fact. The interrogation was confusing, I wouldn't say it was a proper interrogation because he was assaulted, then they made comments as to whether "Are you an ANC or a PAC". It was not a proper interrogation.
MR HATTINGH: When did Mr de Kock arrive at Piet Retief?
MR MOGOAI: Somewhere around that time, and it was dark at that time. After he had arrived he instructed that we should leave there and then we should go to a certain place and then they went to Josini dam.
MR HATTINGH: Now let's just get this clear. Mr de Kock arrived, was he alone?
MR MOGOAI: I just saw him inside the caravan, I didn't see as to whether he was accompanied by somebody or not.
MR HATTINGH: Was that the occasion when he asked you whether you'd had any success with your interrogation of the Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: No, that is not the time, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: But Mr Mngomezulu was there in the room when he arrived, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And the people were still busy interrogating and assaulting him.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And what did Mr de Kock do?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know as to whether whom he called, then he said we should not handle it that way, then thereafter they stopped, then they went outside, then other people were delegated to leave.
MR HATTINGH: I'm sorry, you're going a bit fast for me. Mr de Kock arrived whilst the assault and the interrogation was still ongoing, did he participate in the interrogation and the assault?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember at that time as to whether he took part.
MR HATTINGH: But surely, he's your Commanding Officer, or he was your Commanding Officer, you would recall whether he participated in the assault.
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, he did not take part.
MR HATTINGH: So what did he do as far as you recall?
MR MOGOAI: He was not impressed of what was happening at that time, then he requested that they should cease with the interrogation and assault.
MR HATTINGH: And did you then cease your assault on Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And what else did he say did you have to do? Did he give you any further instructions?
MR MOGOAI: Then he said Mngomezulu should be taken, then we'd follow other cars which would be driven by white members, then we should follow those cars. Then we went to Josini ...(intervention)
MR HATTINGH: Yes, alright, just take it step by step please. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Just a few moments ago you said that when Mr de Kock arrived the interrogation and the assault on Mr Mngomezulu was ongoing and he wasn't impressed with what was going on and he told you to stop, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: I stated so, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: In your affidavit - sorry, I don't think it was in your affidavit, I think it was in your evidence-in-chief, you said that de Kock arrived there, you had taken a break when he arrived.
MR MOGOAI: When did I state that?
MR HATTINGH: In your evidence. I've got my note here and my attorney sitting next to me in fact drew my attention to it, she also has a note, that you took a break and whilst you were taking this break, Mr de Kock arrived.
CHAIRPERSON: I confirm that, Mr Hattingh.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR MOGOAI: That is at the time when we were at Josini dam.
MR HATTINGH: Alright, let's accept that. So he then told you to what, do get into cars and to follow him?
MR MOGOAI: Not to follow him, but to follow other cars.
MR HATTINGH: Other cars.
MR HATTINGH: And did you then leave that place that very same evening?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And did you then travel from there at night-time to this place near Josini?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Where you spent the night?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So you didn't spend the night at Piet Retief or at that place near Piet Retief?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson, we spent the night at Josini.
MR HATTINGH: And Mr de Kock, did he also sleep there?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I have no knowledge.
MR HATTINGH: Did you not see him again that evening?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I did not see him.
MR HATTINGH: And the next morning you continued with your interrogation of Mr Mngomezulu and with the assault on him, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Now Mr de Kock was not impressed with the way in which you did it at Moolman, that place near Piet Retief, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did he tell you before you left that place how you had to do it?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, he did not tell us.
MR HATTINGH: So he merely told you to go to this place near Josini and the next day you just continued, I take it in the same manner or fashion as you were doing the night before.
MR MOGOAI: The assault at Moolman and the interrogation there was no control, but near Josini a person would come and inform us that we should ask a question in this way. It was not the same as it was in the first instance.
MR HATTINGH: Who was that person who told you how to put the questions?
MR MOGOAI: White members, Chairperson, were instructing us how to ask questions. For the first time I was told by Mr Pienaar to ask a question in regard to his membership in the PAC and as to whether he met other members, that is senior members of the PAC in Manzini or in Mbabane.
MR HATTINGH: But Mr Pienaar was present the previous evening when you were questioning him too, wasn't he?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson, he was present.
MR HATTINGH: Did he not tell you then what you had to ask this person?
MR MOGOAI: He informed us, Chairperson, but we did not ask those questions at that particular time.
MR HATTINGH: Why not?
MR MOGOAI: Because we were instructed to stop with the interrogation, then we went to a place near Josini, then we continued properly with the interrogation near Josini.
MR HATTINGH: And whilst you were taking a break, Mr de Kock arrived again, is that your evidence?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson, he arrived.
MR HATTINGH: Were you outside the house when he arrived there?
MR MOGOAI: I was inside the house, we were inside the house.
MR HATTINGH: And in the same room as Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And were the white police officers also still present when Mr de Kock arrived?
MR MOGOAI: At that point, Chairperson, I'm not able to verify as to whether white members were present or not.
MR HATTINGH: And - correct me if I'm mistaken, but my impression was that your evidence-in-chief was that Mr de Kock first addressed you. Did he ask you whether you'd achieved anything yet? Am I mistaken in that regard?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, he was asking me.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know why of all people he asked you whether you've achieved anything and not one of the other people, possibly a white man if he was there? - van Dyk.
MR MOGOAI: I don't know, Chairperson, why.
MR HATTINGH: Because at that stage, according to you, you weren't even working at Vlakplaas.
MR MOGOAI: I don't understand your question.
MR HATTINGH: Why of all people would de Kock ask you whether you had achieved any success, especially having regard to the fact that at that stage you weren't even employed at Vlakplaas?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know why, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you told him no, and then he went and punched him in the private parts.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And what did he do then? De Kock, what did he do thereafter?
MR MOGOAI: He went out and left.
MR HATTINGH: Did he get into his car?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know where he went, but he left the room, then I don't know where he went.
MR HATTINGH: Did you see him again that day?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson, I did not.
MR HATTINGH: Not at all during that day or any subsequent day?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember. Even when we returned I don't remember seeing him again.
MR HATTINGH: But surely you would have remembered if he came back again?
MR MOGOAI: If I saw him again I could have remembered.
MR HATTINGH: Yes. So on your version he just came in, asked whether you'd achieved any success and when you told him no, he went and punched him in the testicles and then he left again, is that your evidence?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did he ask him any questions?
MR MOGOAI: No, Chairperson. What he said is "I'll try to make him remember".
MR HATTINGH: And then he hit him, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: Something in that regard. So that he is not responding, he will remind him to respond.
MR HATTINGH: Yes. And then he said something, my note says "He left thereafter. He said that after some time he should be able to talk", words to that effect. Is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: For how long did your interrogation of Mr Mngomezulu continue on that particular day?
MR MOGOAI: We did not stay long, we did not stay the whole day there at Josini. We dispersed and we left.
MR HATTINGH: Where did you go to?
MR MOGOAI: We were instructed to leave.
MR HATTINGH: Where did you go to?
MR MOGOAI: To Piet Retief, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Who instructed you to go to Piet Retief?
MR MOGOAI: I don't know where the instructions came from, but W/O Koole was informed to come and instruct us that we should go back.
MR HATTINGH: And did you then return to Piet Retief?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And that's the last time you saw Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And that's all you know about this whole incident?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know of all the people who were there, you and Mr Koole - and I don't know if Mr Nofomela is going to say what he says in his statement, are the only three people who says that Mr de Kock was there. All the other people, including people like Mr Mbelo and according to Mr Mgade's statement, say he wasn't there. How do you explain that?
MR MOGOAI: My explanation is that I remember that I saw him at a particular time as I've already stated. As to whether he was seen by me and other people, I'm not able to comment on their behalf.
MR HATTINGH: You also made a statement to the Attorney-General and his investigating team, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And they also promised you that if you were prepared to cooperate with them and give them a full and complete version of what you knew, they would recommend that you be granted indemnity in terms a certain Section of the Criminal Procedure Act, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And did you then incriminate Mr de Kock in that statement?
MR MOGOAI: Chairperson, no. Mr de Kock was my Commander, I still respect him even today. I would not just implicate him in trouble deliberately because I wanted to wash my hands. I would not do that. I respect him very much, even today I still respect him. Even now I know that I'm here he would help me if he sees that I am unable. I am here to ask for amnesty the same as him.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Mogoai, perhaps we're at cross-purposes. Let me ask you this. Did you implicate Mr de Kock with regard to this particular incident in the statement that you made to the Attorney-General? I use the word "incriminate", let me substitute the word "implicate" for that. Maybe that's your problem.
MR MOGOAI: Do you mean I've implicated Mr de Kock? Do you say that I stated that he was present?
MR HATTINGH: Did you tell the Attorney-General what you tell this Committee, with regard to this incident and more particularly Mr de Kock's participation therein?
MR MOGOAI: I suppose so, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Don't you know?
MR MOGOAI: I don't remember the content of the statements I made to the Attorney-General. It's a long time ago, I don't remember very well.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you state what you have stated before this Committee to the Attorney-General with regard to the role Mr de Kock played, or that he was present when Mr Mngomezulu was interrogated?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That's the question which you have been asked.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you. May I proceed, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you.
I want to put it to you, Mr Mogoai, that you are mistaken, that Mr de Kock was not present at any stage during the interrogation and the assault upon Mr Mngomezulu. Are you prepared to concede that you might be mistaken?
INTERPRETER: He was still drinking water, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Oh, sorry.
MR MOGOAI: He was present, Chairperson, he came. He came twice, Chairperson. Firstly he gave an instruction that we should cease with the assault and that confusion which was reigning at that point at that house near Piet Retief. Then again we left to Josini and then at Josini I saw him. I think it was in the morning when the interrogation was on and then he entered, then he stated that he would remind Mr Mngomezulu to respond to questions. That is how I remember the incident.
MR HATTINGH: You insist that he was present, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, may I interpose. You will remember that we have agreed that we will conduct our proceedings today until five fifteen.
MR HATTINGH: I was about to inform you that I have no further questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. Mr Motata has to attend his judicial duties tomorrow at 9 o'clock as an Acting-Judge of the TCD, so we shall only be able to commence at 10 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
