KOBUS KLOPPER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Klopper is it correct that before you obtained legal representation in connection with the incidents for which you have applied for amnesty, there was an initial amnesty application which was completed by you which can be found within bundle 1 before the Committee, from pages 11 up to and including 22, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And the particulars thereof you have referred to quite briefly regarding various incidents which boiled down to offences in your initial application and some of these incidents were not later re-incorporated in your supplementary application, is that correct, because they did not qualify for amnesty?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: The supplementary application can be found from page 23. The form has been signed on page 27, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And then, from page 28 onwards we find a review of your background and your involvement with the Security Police, is that correct? Up to page 32.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then the specific extract from your application with regard to the death of Bheki Mlangeni can be found from page 33 to 37, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You state that the death was approximately during 1992 and that was when you heard that the bomb had indeed detonated?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then do you confirm the particulars as set out on page 33, 34 and 35, subject of course to any further explanation that you wish to give with regard to paragraph 10 pertaining to Kritzinger?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Briefly it boils down to the following. Can you tell the Committee what your rank was in 1990?
MR KLOPPER: I had just become an officer, so I would have been a Lieut for the first half of 1998.
MR LAMEY: Were you involved in the tapping of Dirk Coetzee?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, I was.
MR LAMEY: And you also state in paragraph 5 that his wife was also surveiled.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then you also know that there were discussions which involved the elimination of Coetzee and you came to hear of these discussions at Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, it was a general topic of discussion.
MR LAMEY: And you also gave evidence about this matter during the de Kock trial?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And your affidavit also states on page 36 that reference can be made to your evidence in the de Kock trial. Extracts of your evidence are contained within bundle 2 before the Committee.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then with regard to paragraph 10, you personally did not perform any actions with regard to the parcel bomb itself?
MR KLOPPER: No, it was only after the fact that I became involved.
MR LAMEY: Did you know that anything like that was sent before you had heard that the bomb had detonated?
MR KLOPPER: Before the actual detonation I was not aware of it.
MR LAMEY: And then you state that at a certain stage there was a post-mortem inquest, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that Capt Kritzinger was involved in this post-mortem inquest?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: The inquest into the death of Bheki Mlangeni.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you just inform us further whether a discussion took place with Kritzinger in which you were present initially?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, there was a discussion during which there was a request to search the farm.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall where the discussion took place?
MR KLOPPER: It was at Security Head Office.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall where the search at Vlakplaas would lead to?
MR KLOPPER: I can recall that the search would have been an attempt to determine whether or not the bomb had been manufactured at Vlakplaas, so samples would have been taken of all the ingredients which were used to compile this parcel.
MR LAMEY: Did you understand that this discussion between Kritzinger and yourself, or who else was present during this discussion?
MR KLOPPER: It was me, Kritzinger and de Kock.
MR LAMEY: Did you understand that this discussion with Kritzinger was a prior warning?
MR KLOPPER: It was clear. It was clearly made to me and the pertinent time for the search of the farm was stated to us so that we would be prepared for this event.
MR LAMEY: Did you become involved in any cleaning process, or clean-up which would eradicate any possible evidence which may be protected?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct. De Kock and I went and purchased certain items of stationery at CNA and I personally went to the office of Steve Bosch which was just outside the general offices at Vlakplaas. I cleaned the office. I had the carpets vacuumed and placed the new equipment there and later we had an appointment during Kritzinger and his partner visited the office and took samples.
MR LAMEY: And what you have requested amnesty for is stipulated on page 35, paragraph 9(a) (i) and in your opinion, with regard to the political objective, you have stated this on page 36 and 37, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then, actually it was mostly on page 36 with regard to the political objective and page 37 contains the order or approval.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: On page 37 you also state and I wish for you to explain this, you say that you know that this took place with the knowledge and approval of Gen Krappies Engelbrecht. That would be the attempt to destroy the evidence. Do you have direct evidence of this or what is the basis of you saying that?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I have no direct evidence about it, I did not discuss it directly with Engelbrecht but it was general knowledge among us that de Kock reported to him, so it was quite clear that Engelbrecht would have known about it.
MR LAMEY: And at that stage, as far as you know, what was his position?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson at that stage he was the Commander, or the overall Commander of the entire C group, which included the people from Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: Was this during the post-mortem inquest?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct, because as I recall we had to submit the handwriting samples upon the request of Engelbrecht, he was our Commander at that stage.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MR LAMEY: Chairperson I see it's now 11 o'clock.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I've concluded the evidence in chief.
KOBUS KLOPPER: (s.u.o.)
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Klopper just a few aspects. In Mr Bosch's office at Vlakplaas, what technical equipment did you have there, as far as you can remember?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, as far as I can remember, there were tape recorders that they used for tapping of phones and then similar equipment that they used for that purpose.
MR HATTINGH: There wasn't, for example, technical equipment for example the manufacturing of sophisticated bombs as this device that we mentioned here?
MR KLOPPER: No, not as far as I know.
MR HATTINGH: And as far as you remember, Mr Klopper, did you have access to documents or paper rather and carton that was not manufactured within the Republic but came from abroad?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, as far as I know, not at all.
MR HATTINGH: When you got the warning that Mr Kritzinger is going to visit the farm, was there anything that you destroyed, e.g. paper, or carton, I'm talking specifically now about brown paper?
MR KLOPPER: I had to clean up all the evidence within the office, but I cannot specifically remember brown paper, but all the paper we destroyed within the office and all the new equipment I bought myself.
MR HATTINGH: Shortly after Mr Coetzee made his revelations concerning Vlakplaas and the activities there, these allegations made were widely published.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And there was not a day or week where something was not said about this in the media.
MR KLOPPER: A lot of people were implicated in his revelations.
MR HATTINGH: And I assume that Mr Coetzee was the subject of a lot of discussions.
MR KLOPPER: The discussions also were not very friendly.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, that was my following question. It was probably not very friendly things that were said about him?
MR KLOPPER: No, not at all.
MR HATTINGH: In other words, in general in the police ranks, that was the subject of the conversations?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: In 1985 already, surveillance was done through official channels, I think specifically more the police and that is now the tapping of the phones of Mr Coetzee.
MR KLOPPER: I can remember that I heard something like that but at that stage I was not aware of it.
MR HATTINGH: And that he asked for an investigation or he asked for a hearing concerning alleged tapping of his phone or surveillance.
MR KLOPPER: I cannot remember that but there was a lot of talk about his use of language, but I cannot remember that.
MR HATTINGH: I do not think that the content of it is really important but when I went through my documentation, I received lists of transcriptions of conversations where he used crude language especially against some of the members.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, mention was made about his language usage.
MR HATTINGH: And this fact was known amongst the police ranks and he was definitely not a very popular person?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Klopper, if you cannot answer what I'm asking you now, you can just tell the Commission. You were stationed at SANAB.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: That is in Johannesburg.
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: And a part of your function was the smuggling through the postal system, mostly air mail and that was mostly drugs.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, we used the Security Branch in these cases.
MR BOOYENS: So you do have knowledge of the WA10 system where you intercept post?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Let us look at the position of Mr Dirk Coetzee. We know that there was a WA10 on him. In other words post or mail that left the Republic and addressed to somebody on this VA list, it would have been intercepted by the police at a certain place.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, they used a movement control system, a certain name was put on it. In the case where a person would leave the country with his passport, that post or mail would then be taken out, looked at and we would put it back as well if nothing was found.
MR BOOYENS: We heard that Mr Bheki Mlangeni from my learned friend across from me, was a very prominent member of the freedom fighters at that stage.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Did you have any knowledge of people who surveyed, some people would call it a paranoia concerning security, for example the post or the mail that went to Mlangeni.
MR KLOPPER: It would be logical that if it was known that if he was the liaison person with Coetzee, especially if it came from abroad. Definitely yes.
MR BOOYENS: And it seems to me that it is logical that the people, let us call them the clerks, who did the interception, they would not open the packages themselves, I'm now talking specifically in security situation of Bheki Mlangeni, they wouldn't have opened the mail themselves, they just would have intercepted it and it was placed in a system where it would be investigated.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, yes. The way I understood was that a certain person's name would be connected to a certain subject. Let us presume then A would then deal with Dirk Coetzee, the postal mail would be taken out of the system, Mr X would be contacted and then investigate what security interest there is, or documentation can be taken from that mail. It will then by put back into the system.
MR BOOYENS: Do you have an idea what section of the police dealt with this, that is now the investigation of the mail?
MR KLOPPER: It was usually done on a local branch level. The people from John Vorster square did this and then the mail from abroad would then go through Jan Smuts and they would then have their office at Jan Smuts where they would then intercept the mail.
MR BOOYENS: Very well. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR RAUTENBACH: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Klopper, there are three aspects that I would like to deal with. The first one concerning the interception that we just talked about, did you know of a place in Johannesburg called as "The Hole" ?
MR KLOPPER: That was the place at John Vorster Square where the post or mail was dealt with.
MR RAUTENBACH: Very well, this is now where the Johannesburg mail was sorted. We know that in this case that at least what happened here was the modified walkman was sent to Coetzee, it was not placed in his hands, he does not accept the package, it comes back and Mr Mlangeni is killed. In this situation, I know that you say that you were not aware of what happened when the package was made up and the device was manufactured, but I do assume that with liaison, that in this section of investigation and the people who intercepted that mail, you could just basically say to them that if this package arrived there, they must just leave it.
MR KLOPPER: That is possible, that there was a compartmentalisation of this, but I assume that if post or a package would come there and this is my personal opinion, because Dirk Coetzee and Mlangeni were prominent people, it would be logical that the person who was in charge of the interception, they would contact him and say that the package will come through, because if they take the package out, let us assume that a security policeman took it out and the security policeman was killed, what would have been the result of that?
MR RAUTENBACH: So what you are saying, there would have been some sort of liaison between them.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is my personal opinion.
MR RAUTENBACH: And then secondly, this meeting that occurred with Mr Kritzinger, did this happen at Head Quarters?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR RAUTENBACH: Were you asked to go there or did you got with Mr de Kock or was it just coincidence?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I know, I was there by chance and Mr Kritzinger had an office, I think, one floor just below ours, but myself and Kritzinger, a few years ago we worked together so there was a trust between us before this discussion took place.
MR RAUTENBACH: And do you say that this meeting was a coincidence?
MR KLOPPER: I would not say it was coincidence, I cannot specifically remember but I do know that it was in the hallways of the security office where he mentioned to me that they are going to investigate the farm and search the farm and that's when I went to de Kock.
MR RAUTENBACH: Did you both go to de Kock? Where was de Kock?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot specifically remember, but I think it was at the Security Headquarters and as far as I know, the whole discussion took place within the hallways.
MR RAUTENBACH: And Mr Klopper, if I understand your application correctly, it was not just a case of going to Vlakplaas, it was basically ensuring that you do remove these type of things?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct. Amongst the Security Branch members, it was not necessary to say to somebody specifically, "Clean up". Just through certain actions, you do know what is going about. You do not have to say this directly. The language used was of such a nature that you do know what is going on.
MR RAUTENBACH: If I look at your statement and application, can you tell me on what pages it appears?
MR KLOPPER: It's from page 35 onwards.
MR RAUTENBACH: Did he, Kritzinger, tell you and Mr de Kock that he is going to go to Vlakplaas on such and such a date?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I can remember, during the post-mortem inquest a lot of fingers were pointed at Gen van der Westhuizen, because they hadn't searched Vlakplaas at that stage yet. If I can remember correctly, in the media a lot of questions were raised concerning Klatzman, I cannot specifically remember his name, Klatzman was his name, why the farm was not searched, that would have been the first place which they had to search and then a date was made and an arrangement was made with myself and Mr de Kock for a specific time that they would come to the farm and take the samples or do the investigations that they should have done a long time ago.
MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Klopper, I'm talking now about the media. Didn't you become aware that Kritzinger received a lot of criticism because initially he denied to Klatzman that there was a Technical Department in Rebecca Street?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot remember that, no. No, I cannot remember that he denied that.
MR RAUTENBACH: And also that he denied that there was such a person as du Toit?
MR KLOPPER: No, I cannot remember that.
MR RAUTENBACH: Out of Mr de Kock's evidence, I understood that both of you, that this discussion with Kritzinger was very clear?
MR KLOPPER: There was no doubt about what was going on and what it all entailed.
MR RAUTENBACH: I would just like to ask you in short the following. Out of your evidence I quoted something from your evidence and I put it to Mr de Kock about a conversation that took place at the Centurion Hotel.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: Can you in short just tell us what that conversation was about?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, if I can remember correctly, or my recollection is, we visited there, it was the time when Leon Flores was arrested in England and my recollection is, it was put to me, there was fear that he is going to talk about certain information and the reason, according to me, was he was going to send people to eliminate Dirk Coetzee and that is how I can remember it.
MR RAUTENBACH: What did Mr de Kock say, was he worried?
MR KLOPPER: It came from de Kock as far as I can remember, that he was at the DCC and myself and Willie Nortje were there that night at the hotel.
MR RAUTENBACH: In other words, Mr Nortje was there as well?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR RAUTENBACH: So, what you are saying is that what you understood from what Mr de Kock said, is that they were scared that he, Flores, would start talking and that the purpose was to get people to eliminate Coetzee. De Kock had the task then to execute this. No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAUTENBACH
MS LOCKHAT: I do have a few questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: How long were you at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairman, if I can remember correctly, it was for four years that I worked there.
MS LOCKHAT: From which year was that?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, I started there in 1989, I cannot remember the exact date.
MS LOCKHAT: I want to go back to the time that Mrs Coetzee was under surveillance. Yourself, Bellingan, Marthinus Ras and Tait went, you surveyed her and you went to a certain restaurant. Is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: And I believe she met a certain gentleman, Kasselton, who also worked at Vlakplaas, can you just clarify that for me?
MR KLOPPER: At the time when I was part of the surveillance, Jacques Pauw was the person, or the journalist, who wrote the book, "The Heart of War". It was on the television as well. I didn't know that she met Kasselton.
MS LOCKHAT: Because I just want to refer you to page 26 of bundle 2 where you stated, the last paragraph, you state that she indeed had this meeting with Kasselton.
MR KLOPPER: If I can remember correctly, I just looked at this quickly, that was the cross-examination by Mr Hattingh and that was statement that was put to me where I then answered that it was not, in my case, the same. I think the fact that she had the meeting with Kasselton was a statement that was made by Mr Hattingh during the cross-examination of the hearing.
MS LOCKHAT: And then it was also further stated that he worked for Vlakplaas, that he was at Vlakplaas.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, Pieter Kasselton, I do not know if he worked there, but I did see him at the farm.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to get - Marthinus Ras and Mr Bellingan, did they work closely together?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, they did work very closely together.
MS LOCKHAT: So this operation of surveillance and so forth, they were more or less in charge of that, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: If I can remember correctly, it was more under Bellingan's authority or leadership. I assumed that him and Steve Bosch were the people, so we just helped them. They acted as the leaders in the operation against Coetzee and we were the helpers, the additional members.
MS LOCKHAT: And Mr Tait as well, he was also at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Do you know whether they carried on with this operation regarding the bomb and so forth?
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, I did not carry any knowledge of this bomb, but I did know that certain steps were executed against him, for example the tapping of his phone, surveillance etc, but I wasn't involved in that, but as far as I can remember, once or twice I listened to the tapes and I made certain notes.
MS LOCKHAT: So during that period you had no communication regarding this bomb?
MR KLOPPER: No not at all.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to your amnesty application on page 15 where the question regarding financial remuneration and so forth and you said: "Yes." And then you stated you got remuneration, extra financial informer's fees, can you just elaborate?
MR KLOPPER: Can I just explain. There was no remuneration, this was more, it was not about a specific incident and if there were incidents where money was received by members, but in this case not at all. It must be seen in that light. It was a general thing and it was not for a this specific case.
MS LOCKHAT: Would you receive these informer's fees on say a month to month basis, or just a regular type of income, I would say?
MR KLOPPER: No, Mr Chairperson, it happened when it was about fraud and also earlier on in the past when askaris, when an MK member was arrested, the money would then go to the informant and would be then shared amongst the members who were involved in it. I was never paid for such an operation.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
MR SIBANYONI: And Mr Klopper you said that Mr Kritzinger informed you that there would be a search at Vlakplaas and that he will be taking some samples of ingredients, is this correct?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR SIBANYONI: And then there was a delay before he eventually came?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, we made a specific date if I can remember correctly. I think a day or two was given to me in which I could or had the time to clean the place up and then to prepare for the investigation that they would do there.
MR SIBANYONI: How long was the delay?
MR KLOPPER: As I said, Mr Chairperson, I think it was a day, maybe maximum two days time was given to me to maybe make preparation so that we can be ready.
MR SIBANYONI: Would you say he was really sympathetic to your cause or would you regard his as one of the people who have had the term a "sweeper"?
MR KLOPPER: It was general knowledge that he was a "sweeper", it was the same with Krappies Engelbrecht and all the cases that he dealt with before. It was general knowledge that this person was on our side. Sweepers made sure that no fingers can be pointed towards us.
MR SIBANYONI: Would you say, from your observation at the time, would you say the prosecution were also sympathetic to your cause, or you wouldn't express an opinion about that?
MR KLOPPER: I would just like to make sure, are you talking about the post-mortem inquest in the Mlangeni case, or are you talking about the de Kock Hearing?
MR SIBANYONI: Let's start with the post-mortem inquest.
MR KLOPPER: Mlangeni?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes.
MR KLOPPER: Mr Chairperson, I had no part in that apart from cleaning the office and also to remove any fingerprints or to provide them with fingerprints and handwriting samples. I cannot comment on that.
MR SIBANYONI: And what about the de Kock trial?
MR KLOPPER: It is necessarily so that the prosecution was more on our side if they were against de Kock, that they were not on de Kock's side is very clear, or was very clear.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you. No further questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR LAMEY: No re-examination, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR LAMEY: I call the next applicant, Willem Albertus Nortje.
