ANTON PRETORIUS: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Pretorius, you also incorporate Exhibits A and B in your evidence.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And then subject to the evidence given by today, you confirm the contents in your amnesty application which has been submitted to the Committee.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You have heard the evidence of Mr Coetzee, who has just testified before you.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you concur with the background that he has sketched regarding Lengene and his activities during 1976 and his later involvement with SAYRCO?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now you state on page 34, Mr Pretorius, that you are aware of the fact that two persons were arrested and in the second-last paragraph you refer to Khotso Seahlolo and then in the final sentence you refer to the fact that somebody had succeeded to escape during an investigation. It was either Seahlolo or Masemola.
MR PRETORIUS: It was Masemola, as far as I can recall.
MR VISSER: Is it he that escaped?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Because your application would create the impression that it was Seahlolo.
MR PRETORIUS: No, that is incorrect.
MR VISSER: Furthermore, you state that SAYRCO, during the beginning of 1982, began preparing for a full-scale offensive to commit acts of terrorism in South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you agree with the evidence given by Mr Coetzee regarding the attempt to impress other States or countries in order to obtain assistance from them and so doing achieve a large-scale action by SAYRCO?
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Very well. Is it also correct that SAYRCO's management was actually in Botswana due to the fact that they were not safe here in this country as a result of police actions against them?
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Were you one of the persons who knew of Mr - did you have knowledge of information and reports which were received from Botswana?
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you yourself have any agents or informers that you were handling in Botswana?
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Then on page 35 of your application you refer to a report given by an informer. Could you tell us what that involved?
MR PRETORIUS: Do you want me to read the paragraph?
MR VISSER: Was there information that a full-scale attack was on the verge of happening against a target in the RSA?
MR PRETORIUS: After the arrests of Seahlolo and Masemola, we also received information through various informers that SAYRCO terrorists were planning on launching a full-scale offensive, specifically on Soweto from Botswana and that it would lead to a mortar attack on the Protea Police Station in Soweto. Cheche Mashinini was a founding member of SAYRCO, but at that stage Khotso Seahlolo was already the President of SAYRCO, and you could imagine for yourself how important this offensive towards South Africa was for SAYRCO, to such an extent that they sent their President to South Africa on a clandestine operation and then he was captured as a result.
CHAIRPERSON: You have listened to Mr Coetzee and he stated that he took the decision to abduct Lengene and to bring him to South Africa and to turn him, or whatever, was it only he who took that decision, according to you?
MR PRETORIUS: May I sketch my perspective of my recollection of the events which gave rise ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he himself take that decision?
MR PRETORIUS: He was the Commander of the unit.
CHAIRPERSON: And he took the decision.
MR PRETORIUS: That the person had to be brought back to South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: That he had to be abducted.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: He was your senior.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, he was the Section Commander.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in the abduction?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I was involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell us how this happened.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect, would you allow me to lead the evidence in that regard, because you're jumping some matters which I need bring to your attention, with respect.
CHAIRPERSON: You can do so, Mr Visser, but I thought you asked him to confirm what Coetzee had said, and he did so.
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR VISSER: On page 36, Mr Pretorius, you referred to what happened before the abduction of Mr Lengene.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, yes.
MR VISSER: Can you just inform the Committee about this.
MR PRETORIUS: Page 35, Lieut-Col Coetzee says ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Mr Visser, we have read this and he did confirm it, is it necessary that he must read it again?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, the witness understand me, I did not ask him, I'm referring him to page 36.
CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to lead them, then deal with him.
MR VISSER: Will you please inform the Committee what you are referring to on page 36, what happened before the abduction of Mr Lengene.
MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, it is correct what Mr Coetzee said ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Mr Pretorius, was there a meeting?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: Who was at this meeting?
MR PRETORIUS: Col Heystek, myself and Mr Coetzee was also present.
MR VISSER: Was it here where Mr Coetzee made the suggestion to Col Heystek?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that's where he informed Col Heystek.
MR VISSER: Were you later informed that you were going with to Botswana to help with the abduction?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: What was you role in this?
MR PRETORIUS: I had to go and assist with the bringing back of Lengene to South Africa.
MR VISSER: Did you do anything?
MR PRETORIUS: Physically I went with the team, I made the preparation as to how we will enter Botswana, where we will wait for Mr Lengene and how we will bring him back to the Republic. So I was part of the planning and of the seizing of Mr Lengene.
MR VISSER: That evening when you waited in the house, were the lights on or off?
MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, as far as I can remember all the lights were off except for the lounge, because we wanted to see when Mr Lengene and Khoza entered the lounge.
MR VISSER: How did you observe this? I'm now talking about yourself.
MR PRETORIUS: I was with Mr Coetzee, we stood at the door of a bedroom that led into the lounge, Mr Coetzee peeped through the keyhole and the door was slightly ajar and I could see the lounge.
MR VISSER: When Mr Lengene and Khoza entered the lounge, what happened then?
MR PRETORIUS: They entered, they were talking and we could hear them opening the door. And Mr Lengene, I think there was a bookcase in the lounge ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Mr Pretorius, did you storm out of the rooms?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, they were in the room for a few seconds and then we stormed out.
MR VISSER: Did Mr Lengene resist?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, he was very surprised, he was not aware that we were there.
MR VISSER: What did he do?
MR PRETORIUS: Khoza who was with him, turned and grabbed him and Mr Lengene bit a piece of meat out of his chest.
MR VISSER: Did you then tie him up?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: Did you give him alcohol?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: Was it forced down his throat?
MR PRETORIUS: No, Mr Chairperson, he drank it himself.
MR VISSER: How did he do it if he was cuffed?
MR PRETORIUS: As far as I can remember his hands were cuffed in front of him. We gave him the alcohol and said that he must drink it. The reason was that he had a drinking problem and he would have drank it.
MR VISSER: Did you then bring him back to South Africa?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR PRETORIUS: I am not somebody who knows about spirits, it was a clear spirit but we mixed it with cough medicine or chest medicine.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did this, who made up this mixture?
MR PRETORIUS: I think myself and Mr Coetzee made up this mixture.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR PRETORIUS: I did not hear your question, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that you were supposed to make that mixture and what was going to happen?
MR PRETORIUS: I will answer you, but can I just explain to you what our idea was.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee said that you wanted to make him drunk, so that he will not resist on the way back to South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: The idea was just to load him in the vehicle and to drive with him and if we hit a Botswana roadblock and they ask us "Where are you going?", we will say we were on our way to wherever. And the idea was if they saw Lengene and saw that he was drunk and sleepy - nobody told us about the process, but Mr Coetzee and myself were aware of the fact that if you use Cepacol with alcohol it makes you sleepy. We had a brainwave ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should use a different word.
MR PRETORIUS: ... because we thought there wasn't another alternative, we thought that if we could put the Cepacol in the bottle of spirits, I think it was Cane, if we mixed it and again he drank this, it would have made him sleepy and it would have easy - we would have been able to handle him better.
CHAIRPERSON: We do know about the chemistry of this drink, but wasn't there anyone that said that this will be the affect and how much of what you must put in the bottle?
MR PRETORIUS: No, we just read the paper that was within the box of the bottle.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you just gave it to him to drink?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: You said it was Cane, how big was the bottle?
MR PRETORIUS: It was a half-jack, it was a small flat bottle.
MR VISSER: What was your knowledge concerning Mr Lengene's drinking problem?
MR PRETORIUS: The information that we had, and I can now mention it, it was from Khoza and right from the beginning we knew that he was a serious drinker and he wasn't shy to use strong alcohol.
MR VISSER: Did Mr Lengene have a vehicle that he used in Botswana?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And after you abducted him from Botswana, did this vehicle play a role in later incidents? Can you just tell us about that.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes Mr Chairperson. If I recall correctly, it was a Peugeot. Mr Coetzee's instruction was to the agent. After we left the house, Mr Coetzee asked the agent "Keep the vehicle at the house, hide it, do not drive around in it, do not use it at all", because I think myself and Mr Coetzee knew what the result of this would be and it then also happened. Can I just say this, that our initial purpose of the operation was that because of this vehicle, the whole goal went awry because with the arrest of - and I think that it's important the Committee know, the informant then, the day after we left he drove around in Gaborone in this vehicle and the SAYRCO members that were left over saw that there's a vehicle of their Commander and that somebody else was behind the steering wheel and then they came to the house where he lived, they cornered him and they left him to die. They withdrew and left and they realised that he exposed the whole operation. The afternoon when his wife came home, she just saw her husband lying in a pool of blood and ... he thought it was his attackers who did it to him and the whole story of the abduction he told that to the Botswana Police and that's how the Botswana Police got to know about it and where the whole secret operation was exposed. I do not know if I've answered your question.
MR VISSER: Very well. On the way to Rustenburg from the border there was an incident.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Can you just quickly tell us what happened.
MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I was not in the same vehicle in which Mr Lengene was transported, I was in another vehicle driving behind them. From Koffiefontein border post to Swartruggens is approximately an hour's drive, it had to be very early int he morning, it was still dark, I was very tired because we didn't sleep and in Swartruggens there's one street and while the front vehicle in which Mr Coetzee and Lengene were approached the stop street, Mr Coetzee braked and as the red lights went on I saw the one door open and a person jumped out in the main street in Swartruggens. I jumped out and at that stage I saw it was Mr Lengene who attempted to flee.
MR VISSER: You then got back into the car and you went to Rustenburg. Did you take part in the recruitment? Did you assault him there?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, I did slap him a few times.
MR VISSER: Did you assault him in any other way?
MR PRETORIUS: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Over the period of five or six days, did you assault him every day?
MR PRETORIUS: No. Can I just tell you that after the incident in Swartruggens, we realised that Mr Lengene was not with us all the way and we had to be very careful about what he said and did, and I think from there the assaults took place.
MR MALAN: I do not want to duplicate it unnecessarily, but you've read the statement of Mr Lengene and the allegations that were made about the pliers etcetera.
MR PRETORIUS: Let me put it this way. Mr Coetzee requested me to go back to Soweto to get provisions and finances, so I was not there over the whole period of six days, but in that time while I was there he was never electrocuted. I doubted that Mr Coetzee's father-in-law was there and did this. I did not see it and I really doubt it. I cannot believe that Mr Coetzee's father-in-law would do it.
MR MALAN: Is he a member of the Force?
MR PRETORIUS: No.
MR MALAN: What does he do?
MR PRETORIUS: He worked at the mines and he had emphysema.
MR MALAN: Mr Visser, I didn't want to take over your examination, but I do not want you to unnecessarily lead evidence which we don't expect anymore. I want to go back to the meeting about which you testified, on page 35 of the bundle.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Sir.
MR MALAN: In the briefing coordinating meeting you mention that Coetzee and yourself suggested that you must go and recruit Lengene in Botswana.
MR PRETORIUS: I will accept it ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: My question is, this is what you say. What did you understand if you had to go and recruit him, what were you supposed to do?
MR PRETORIUS: I know it sounds difficult to understand today, but I would like to clarify it. Coetzee was busy with a process that was over a long period of time, but the things that resulted in the change of Coetzee's recruitment strategy was the attack on Protea Police Station with mortars, and we made the suggestion, myself and Coetzee, or I supported Coetzee in this, that is actually what I mean by it, because there is this attack manifesting in Botswana, we do not have time to go through this long process and then maybe speak to Lengene in Botswana, but that we have to go and get him there. He is the Head of the Military Force ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: I'm sorry to interrupt you, I'm not interested in it because I do accept it, it is a given and you've already confirmed it. But you said that you had to go and recruit him, you had to recruit him as what? As an informer in Botswana, to remain there and work from there, was that the decision?
MR PRETORIUS: No, as I said, we were already busy with a recruitment strategy or process where Lengene notified Khoza and Mothiba that he is recruitable. In our terminology we did talent spying around this person ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Look at that paragraph if you need time to read through it, but let me just read what you say here
"We suggested to go and recruit Lengene in Botswana because we had information from Mothiba that indicated that Lengene will easily concede, knowing that there is no other alternative."
Why did you have to recruit him then, what was the other alternative? He is recruited for what? Or what? What do you mean with that paragraph?
MR PRETORIUS: The other alternative was bringing him back to South Africa, then he didn't have a choice but to work with us. But what would have happened ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What was the alternative of which you speak? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR PRETORIUS: The alternative is - we did not provide him with an alternative, we went to Botswana or when we entered Botswana on that specific day, we did not leave an alternative open for Lengene, but we were quite sure that we will be able to complete the recruitment action.
MR MALAN: Mr Pretorius, did you read this statement before you came to testify?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Sir.
MR MALAN: Well let me tell you what you are saying in this paragraph. You say here that at this meeting, because of the information that you obtained, suggested to go and recruit Lengene. This recruitment would have happened in Botswana, it's not an abduction, it is the whole plan to recruit him, but we do not know "recruit as what", but you say an informer. You then continue in this paragraph and you say that the information that you received from Mothiba indicated that Lengene will easily concede to be recruited as an informant if he realises that there is no other venue to follow. Mothiba who already contacted Lengene, would then have make the suggestion of recruitment to him.
MR PRETORIUS: That's correct.
MR MALAN: And Lengene was willing but he did not know how to break away, because he feared for his own life and the lives of his family in South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Well to break away cannot indicate an informer because to break away is a very public or open action. So in this paragraph, and this is your version ...(intervention)
MR PRETORIUS: Then I apologise if I brought you under the wrong impression.
MR MALAN: You see the problem is, it seems to be the most logical conclusion, Lengene wanted to come back to South Africa, but he's scared about what his colleagues are going to do to him and his family in South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: In other words, Lengene wanted to come to South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: But you did not want him to come to South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: No, we also wanted to bring him back to South Africa.
MR MALAN: But then you didn't want to recruit him as an informant.
MR PRETORIUS: But why not? We recruited hundreds of informers like that. I can name various names of informers, but in my whole career recruited 30 to 40 people like this. I brought them back to South Africa. It is as easy as that. As I told you, Mr Chairperson, that was the plan, to bring him back.
CHAIRPERSON: And to do what?
MR PRETORIUS: Then with the information that he would have given us, the operational circumstances, we would have looked at what will happen to him. One of the possibilities was that he had to go back to Botswana, but as I already mentioned to you, things went wrong.
MR MALAN: But you see, that's the whole point. You would have brought him back here first of all, then you would have got his cooperation, he's now on your side, and then you would have seen how to apply him. So he could have, if possible, be placed in an informant's position.
MR PRETORIUS: Not possibly, definitely.
CHAIRPERSON: In Botswana?
MR PRETORIUS: In Botswana, we could ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: I am not asking if you could, please listen to me. Obviously you could have done it.
MR PRETORIUS: We would have been able to do it.
MR MALAN: Yes, you may have succeeded, but in your evidence now when you talked freely, it's that you wanted to get him here, get all the information from him and see how to apply him. And that's what you just said to us.
MR PRETORIUS: Where we are going to deploy him and in which way we are going to deploy him.
MR MALAN: And afterwards you decided to appoint him in the Force.
MR PRETORIUS: But then the situation changed drastically.
MR MALAN: I don't have further questions, we are struggling to get clarity on this. We are really struggling to get clarity on this issue.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I would just like to see if there is anything I have to add.
In any event, according to you he was recruited as an informant after he came back to South Africa.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, for the first period time he was an informer and then later he became a policeman that same year.
MR VISSER: And did he work closely with you?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: Who attested him?
MR PRETORIUS: It was Mr Heystek.
MR VISSER: For how long was he a policeman?
MR PRETORIUS: I think it was 17 or 18 years of service, loyal service.
MR VISSER: Do you also agree on his brother and the discussion with his mother?
MR PRETORIUS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And concerning the Police' interest in their family, that Mr Coetzee testified about?
MR PRETORIUS: I'd just like to tell the Committee that it is blatant lies from the family's side, that person had the best treatment under my command. I went out of my way, as well as the South African Police. He always got the best vehicles, he had a very good salary, we looked after his family. We had to keep him out of jail because of acts that he committed, he was not disciplined. Under different circumstances we would have kicked him out of the Force, but we always stood up for him, we stood behind him and he got only the best. He was a trustworthy or loyal person and over this long period he worked under my command and like I said, we only wanted the best for him.
MR VISSER: He also served the Police very well, he served you very well.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, he also received a medal for loyal service.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I notice it's 1 o'clock.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR VISSER: I would just like to check, but I believe I am.
MR MALAN: While Mr Visser is looking at his documents, in examination by Mr Visser, you also said that he worked as an informant for the first period of time, what did he inform on?
MR PRETORIUS: On SAYRCO activities in the Transvaal area. He assisted us to get the safehouses in Soweto. He assisted with arrests. He's a person that we sent in. If I can give an example, a specific house in Soweto we did not want to act on that or launch an attack on it if we were not sure if that person was there or not, then we sent Lengene there.
CHAIRPERSON: He's now a member of SAYRCO that was abducted, everybody knows it.
MR PRETORIUS: No, not everybody knew. Let me put it this way, it was in the media but nobody was sure ...
CHAIRPERSON: Please listen to my question. Various people knew about it, his own people in Botswana knew about it, now how do you manage to recruit him and place him in position where he can still give that information of Soweto?
MR PRETORIUS: Let me give you the answer. Commissioner Hershveld from Botswana was here, if Lengene wanted to go back he had the opportunity that a few of them had, who were in the hands of the Security Branch. He could have gone back. Botswana with their propaganda said he was abducted from our side. The propaganda was that he was not abducted. In other words, there was a 50/50 situation of confusion and we knew that in that first phase we could still use that confusing situation and get Lengene to contact people who are still in South Africa. We're talking about an era where there were no cellular phones and no real communication lines, so we used this to get to these people with the assistance of Lengene.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you another question and I do not want to hear a long story. What would he have told his own people when he gathered this information there in Soweto? Wouldn't they have said, but isn't he working for the Police now?
MR PRETORIUS: I think he would have denied it and he would then say "But here I am, I'm a free man, I'm not abducted."
CHAIRPERSON: But you know and everybody knows that the people who walked around in the streets in the townships, who generally speaking supported the ANC, knew that some of your men walked around there, you know it, everybody knew it, how do you think then - what I want to know is, he's fresh out of your hands, there's a story that he was abducted from Botswana, he's the Head of their military wing, he is free, he walks around in Soweto, how would he have explained this to the people?
MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, if I can just answer the question there. Up until late in the '90s I used Lengene in such clandestine operations. He had information on MK - I do not know if I said it myself or if it was Mr Coetzee said it, he assisted us in MK information, PAC information and everybody knew that Lengene was caught ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Mr Pretorius, please. A person can receive that information as an investigating officer, you can gather this information in different capacity. The question is, how did Lengene act? He couldn't have been an informant who worked within an organisation.
MR PRETORIUS: ...(indistinct)
MR MALAN: Do not interrupt me. I'm telling you the way in which I understand is that after he was abducted, after Khoza followed and was assaulted after the propaganda from Botswana, if there were SAYRCO members in Soweto there would have been no way in which he could have just walked in there and said "I infiltrated, here I am." How is he going to explain why he is there? But there are various ways in which he can gather this information. You see this is the question. If you tell us that he's an informer within the structures, then it doesn't gel.
MR PRETORIUS: No, I never said within the structures. He's an informer and that's a fact, but he was an informer that did various things. Maybe you misunderstood me.
MR MALAN: In other words, he provided you with information that he gathered. He went out and gathered information, he did not feed you information and still pretend that he's a member of SAYRCO.
MR PRETORIUS: No, not the whole time.
MR MALAN: Now you are saying it cannot be like this, but then you say it is.
MR PRETORIUS: Maybe I do not understand you very well. The bottom line is that he was an informer for a period of time after he came back. He received an informer's salary and we applied him like we applied other informers, but he was not part of the formal structure of SAYRCO anymore.
MR MALAN: And he was an informer that was handled by you or managed by you, not one that by coincidence gave you information?
MR PRETORIUS: No, not at all.
MR MALAN: Maybe we understand the concept better.
MR PRETORIUS: I'm sorry if I confused you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions?
MR VISSER: Did you listen when I took Mr Coetzee through Lengene's statement?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Sir.
MR VISSER: Do you agree with the objections that he made concerning the correctness of certain sections in his statement?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I do not want to go through the whole thing. You do agree with the answers that Mr Coetzee gave?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
ANTON PRETORIUS: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heyde.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Pretorius, I just want to take you to the incident which took place after Mr Lengene was abducted, when he wanted to escape at a certain stage.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: You have said the following a while ago, this is after he jumped out of the vehicle and tried to escape
"We slapped him a few times and we realised that Lengene wasn't entirely with us. From that point onwards the assault ensued."
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is what I said.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: You realised ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue.
Before that incident did you think that he was with you?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson, I think that is in my original application ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Forget about your application. You knew that he was with you?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: However, at that point you realised that he wasn't entirely on your side, that's correct, isn't it?
MR PRETORIUS: I can say that it is my personal opinion which I summarised from the situation because of his attempt to escape.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Isn't it true that if he wanted to escape, it was true that he didn't want to cooperate with you, he wanted to escape and he didn't want to cooperate with you?
MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson, that is not entirely correct.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: What did you think was the reason why he wanted to escape?
MR PRETORIUS: Unfortunately I cannot tell you what his reasons were why he wanted to escape, but I realised at that point, as I have already told you Honourable Chairperson, that it was clear that we had not yet managed to gain complete control over Mr Lengene.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: You then stated that from that point onwards, the assault ensued. Now when he was in the garage, did you participate in giving him a few slaps, as you put it?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was that to persuade him to cooperate with you?
MR PRETORIUS: Among others, it was one of the reasons.
CHAIRPERSON: What were the other reasons?
MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, you must remember that we had already gained information. If we asked Lengene a question and if he had responded too slowly or in our opinion, incorrectly, then we would have slapped him over the head or on the ear, to describe it as such, and in that case he would then also have changed his story and said "No, but this is how it happened."
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you at any stage pull a bag over his head?
MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did anybody else pull a bag over his head at any point?
MR PRETORIUS: Not that I observed.
CHAIRPERSON: But among the Security Police ranks it was a custom.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, it was a custom of many persons to bag people, so to speak.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: According to your knowledge was it also a custom to use pliers with which to pinch the private parts of individuals?
MR PRETORIUS: No, Chairperson, I read about that for the first time in Mr Lengene's report, it definitely wasn't a custom.
CHAIRPERSON: I have done many of these cases in the Eastern Cape and I must say that this is the first time that I have come to hear of pliers. Previously I heard of drawers.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: This incident took place in a garage. What was in the garage? Is it possible that perhaps a pair of pliers may have been in the garage?
MR PRETORIUS: I don't want to speculate but it is a garage, so it is highly probable that there may have been pliers in the garage. I would concede to that.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: At which stage did you decide that you would stop slapping him, as you put it?
MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, today I really cannot tell you on which day it was precisely, but it must be kept in mind that we were busy with a recruitment action, so it was unnecessary for us to keep on assaulting the person because that wasn't our objective, our objective was to recruit the person. And I know that there was a period of six days, but I cannot tell you that it was on the fifth day and then Mr Coetzee or somebody else says that it was on the sixth day that he was also slapped, but I know for a fact that there was a period during which we stopped and it was while we were at the house, but I really cannot tell you upon which day precisely that took place.
CHAIRPERSON: According to the affidavit, it stopped on the sixth day.
MR PRETORIUS: If Lengene were to say that I would concede to it. I would then have to accept that that may have been the last day.
CHAIRPERSON: And on the seventh day there was rest.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was it therefore your opinion - and I just want to examine you about this, is it your opinion that you stopped slapping him when you realised that you had achieved his full cooperation?
MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, from that day onwards, or the sixth day, so to speak, to his death 18 years later, I do not know of any assault on Mr Lengene which was conducted in my presence.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: When Mr Lengene was there in the garage, is it correct that you realised that there were basically two options for him? The people in Botswana were already looking for him and he couldn't return to Botswana, you were aware that he knew who the agents were, that he had quite a lot of knowledge which he could disclose if he didn't cooperate with you, is it correct to say that there were basically only two choices for him, either he would have to cooperate with you or you would have to make a plan with him? For example, have him killed.
MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, I know what Mr Coetzee testified, I'm speaking on my behalf. There was no such idea. I think what is important is that on the sixth day, if we could stay at the sixth day, we became aware that things had gone awry in Botswana and up to that sixth day, everything went well with regard to the recruitment, according to us.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: What was your idea, what would you have to do if he didn't want to cooperate?
MR PRETORIUS: I cannot refer to something that I may have thought of 18 years ago. I was convinced that the recruitment had been successful, that everything was going according to plan and that there were no problems.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: You were in contact with the so-called intermediary, who appears to have been Mr Khoza, you never had any direct contact with Mr Lengene while he was in Botswana, before you abducted him?
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: How did you know that information which came via Mr Khoza from Mr Lengene, was indeed reliable?
MR PRETORIUS: Because Mr Khoza had worked for quite some time for Mr Coetzee, he hadn't spent that long working for me. I had been at Soweto for less than six months at that point, but Mr Coetzee knew Mr Khoza for considerably longer than I did.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Would you say that Mr Lengene, after he became part of the Police Force, had some form of fear to break away from you?
MR PRETORIUS: What sort of fear? He was free, if he wanted to run away he could run away within the first month, if he wanted to run away. Within the first month.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Wasn't there a Mr Olifant who still monitored him for quite some time and in the evenings cuffed him before he went to sleep?
MR PRETORIUS: I do not wish to refer to any cuffing, but it is possible, there was a custom with any new informer that one recruited, which would be to place other persons or agents with a task to watch the man in case he ran away, because there was always that possibility. Unfortunately for Mr Lengene, he never exercised his options.
MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, what do you mean that "unfortunately for Lengene he never exercised his options?" What do you mean by that?
MR PRETORIUS: To attempt to escape or run away. He had all the time in the world. He had all the opportunities in the world, he could even have run away with a State vehicle.
MR MALAN: Why do you say "unfortunately"?
MR PRETORIUS: Because as I have heard from the legal representative over there, it sounds to me as if according to his information, this was what Mr Lengene wanted to do but he never did it.
MR MALAN: Just answer the question, Mr Pretorius, do not try to amuse us, just answer the question directly according to the facts.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Is it correct that even after he was "discharge" from the garage, that you still didn't trust him completely?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes Chairperson, as I told you - I have already answered this basically, with any informer who has been recruited there would be a period of a week or a month or a year during which one would always try to observe, because there was always the possibility of the person turning back or becoming a double agent. It is so.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: What would you have done in such a case, if for example he had turned back?
MR PRETORIUS: We would then have managed the circumstances, I don't know how we would have done so, but we would have addressed the problem as it originated. But I cannot tell you the manner in which we would have addressed it. Unfortunately I have never had experience of such a case where a person has returned to the other side.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: Isn't it true that he knew that there were people who were monitoring him, that he couldn't run away? Wouldn't it then be natural for him to be fearful?
MR PRETORIUS: Chairperson, perhaps initially he had that fear, I would concede to that, it is possible. I don't know what was going through his mind, but as we have heard Mr Coetzee's evidence and mine, he spent 18 years with us and I'm certain that during those 18 years at some point he wasn't watched all the time during those 18 years. That is certain.
MR VAN DER HEYDE: I have nothing further, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: You testified that when the incident on the way to Rustenburg took place, you realised that possibly he wasn't on your side and that was the first time that you had such an impression.
MR PRETORIUS: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was he abducted?
MR PRETORIUS: As I have already told you, or attempted to tell you, we didn't want to take any chances in Botswana, we didn't want to try a recruitment action in Botswana. We decided that regardless of what happened, the man had already disclosed his willingness to cooperate with the Security Police and we decided between me and Coetzee, that we would bring the man back to the RSA where under more favourable circumstances, we could speak to him and work with him and persuade him even further to give his full cooperation to us.
CHAIRPERSON: Well either a person is persuaded to cooperate or not, there are no degrees.
MR PRETORIUS: As I've already told you, Honourable Chairperson, we had not personally spoken to Lengene yet and we needed to create the opportunity where we personally could speak to him and the route that we followed was to bring Lengene to South Africa by means of abduction.
CHAIRPERSON: Why wasn't he just asked to come over?
MR PRETORIUS: He wouldn't have done so, I'm convinced of that.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know?
MR PRETORIUS: I was the primary Commander of the operation, but I don't know whether at that stage such a suggestion had been put to Lengene by means of the intermediary, so I don't know about that. But as Mr Coetzee correctly testified, there was a problem that if the person had to come through on his own, how would he have done so? He would have had to do so via the regular border control channels and this would have created additional problems. That is all that I can think of at this stage. However, I cannot elaborate on this, I cannot say whether any suggestion as such was ever put to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your response to my question?
MR PRETORIUS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I will repeat my question.
MR PRETORIUS: Very well.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know, or how did you know at that stage that if he was asked, he would not come over by himself?
MR PRETORIUS: As I've said, I cannot comment on that, perhaps ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You have testified that he would not have come over.
MR PRETORIUS: Yes, that is what logic told me, Chairperson, that he would not have come over.
CHAIRPERSON: What logic?
MR PRETORIUS: As I've already told you, because the initial idea with the recruitment is not to expose a person, we were not planning to expose him. With any recruitment one would never expose the person, that was not the objective, and if he had travelled through the regular channels back to South Africa, the chances were very good that he would be exposed and we didn't want that to happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any further questions?
MR VISSER: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
MR PRETORIUS: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the last witness is Mr Heystek. He will also address you in Afrikaans and he has no objection - although I didn't ask him, perhaps you should ask him whether he has an objection to taking the oath.
His application is at page 18 to 24 and he deals with this incident at page 20, I believe, Mr Chairman.
