Amnesty Hearings

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, will you give your full names for the purposes of the record.

EUGENE FOURIE: (sworn states)

ADV BOSMAN: The applicant has been duly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr Lamey? You may proceed Mr Lamey.

EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Fourie, you have also applied before the Amnesty Committee for amnesty for various incidents while you were a member of the Security Police and you submitted an initial application which we can find from page 45 in the bundle before the Committee.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And therein you referred very briefly to the incident in paragraph 5 thereof, is that correct? The building in Manzini which was searched for documents.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then there is a supplementary document of particulars which has been provided by you, which can be found - or at least at first there is a supplementary amnesty application form, dated January 1998 in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then furthermore, there are particulars that you have provided regarding the incident of the search of the offices at the Swedish International Development Aid in Effesis House in Manzini in Swaziland, which can be found from page 65 onwards in the bundle, up to an including page 71, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Do you confirm the particulars as they are set out within this document?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you have also listened to the evidence of Mr de Kock. I would just like to ask you, or before I come to that, at that stage you were a member of Unit C2, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Before you went to C2, you yourself were also a member of Vlakplaas.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And is it correct that with the events of the search of these premises, it was the same time that you were involved in another operation in conjunction with the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch in Piet Retief, namely the Nerston incident?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you also applied for amnesty for that.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And at that stage you were a member of Unit C2 and you were deployed to the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, specifically Piet Retief.

MR LAMEY: Yes, in Piet Retief under the command of W/O Pienaar.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And it was during your activities there that you were also part of an order to become involved in the Nerston incident and then also in this incident.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And on this particular evening you were with the team under the leadership of Col de Kock and you went into Swaziland to search these premises.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall you have stated in your affidavit that Freek Pienaar was possibly also there, what is your specific recollection regarding that?

MR FOURIE: I can now recall that Freek Pienaar was indeed there, as well as Lappies Labuschagne from Security Branch Eastern Transvaal.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether any black members were part of the operation?

MR FOURIE: According to my recollection, on that specific evening no black members were involved in this incident.

MR LAMEY: And then you also state in paragraph 9 that you encountered a number of black women on the first floor and you ordered them to stand still and to remain silent. You assaulted them by slapping them and they were ordered to lay down on the floor. Can you just tell us precisely how it occurred that they were assaulted, what gave rise to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps just estimate at first how many black women there were?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, I'm not entirely certain, but I would imagine that there were two black women and two black youths, but I'm not completely certain of the precise number of persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: And what precisely took place?

MR FOURIE: As I recall, we did not expect to find anybody in the building. With the previous reconnaissance that we had undertaken on the building, we did not expect to find anybody in the building when we entered it, so we were taken aback when we found these persons in the building, just as they were taken aback by our presence. They came walking down the passage the Sida offices were at the beginning of the passages, on the right-hand side, they saw us and we saw them and both parties were taken aback.

I can recall that they were women, because they screamed from fright, most probably because they had not expected to find white men on that floor. I grabbed one of the women and slapped her through the fact with the open hand in order to silence her, so that they wouldn't make any further noise.

I know that there was another member, I cannot recall precisely whom, who seized one of the adults and instructed them to be silent. I don't know whether they were Swazi citizens or who they were, but they did not come out of the Sida offices, they were present on the same floor however.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "through our reconnaissance we did not expect to find people there", did your reconnaissance entail that you should get into the building at that hour?

MR FOURIE: We found that if we entered the building once it was dark, there wouldn't be anybody in the offices because they didn't work at night. On previous occasions when we had been in Manzini and drive past the building, we had never viewed any movement or persons in the building in the evening.

MR LAMEY: But you yourself had not previously been in the building to reconnoitre it, you had to make observations from the outside.

MR FOURIE: Yes, and we also relied on information given by Glory Sedibe and MK September, as well as an informer which gave information to the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be Glory Sedibe?

MR FOURIE: Not necessarily, Glory Sedibe provided information to us himself, but Security Branch Eastern Transvaal also handled informers who were living in Swaziland in Manzini and they had regular contact with them, they were monitoring the Sida building. They were aware that refugees were reporting at the Sida House building, from which point onwards they would proceed to Angola, Mozambique or Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LAMEY: Did you yourself have a weapon on that particular evening?

MR FOURIE: I think that I had a weapon with a silencer, but I cannot recall the calibre.

MR LAMEY: Do you recall whether or not it was a legal or an illegal weapon?

MR FOURIE: It would have been illegal.

MR LAMEY: Or at least, a weapon which was applied for an unlawful objective.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, you are then applying for amnesty for burglary with the purpose of stealing documents.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: The assault emanating from the assault which took place on the person or persons there.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Damage to property, which took place at the Sida building.

MR FOURIE: I don't know if it belonged to them.

MR LAMEY: Well then to the offices of Sida specifically?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then theft of documents.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: As it has been referred to in your application and also as it has been testified to by Mr de Kock.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then also for any offence regarding the Arms and Ammunition Act.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Do you also concur with Mr de Kock's evidence that you crossed the border by means of false documentation?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And that you also did not go through border control when you returned.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And in this regard you also apply for any statutory transgression with regard to border control measures.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, that is then the evidence of Mr Fourie.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. I notice we've gone well past 1 o'clock and I'm not of the opinion that I should starve my staff, they must have something in their tummies to be able to survive. We will adjourn for lunch and we will reconvene within the next forty minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

EUGENE FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, you had completed your evidence-in-chief.

MR LAMEY: Yes indeed, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Hugo, any cross-examination?

MR HUGO: No cross-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Just a few aspects, Mr Fourie. The women that you found in the passage, you said there were possibly two woman and two youngsters, what happened to the two young people that were present there?

MR FOURIE: We grouped them all together for them to be quiet, but then later on I went into the office to assist the people in identifying some of the documentation, to get photographs, or documentation with names on and some of the members outside guarded them. I do not know if they were pushed into another room, but they were kept there on the same floor until we were finished.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you go and identify other documentation when you did not know what documentation was kept there, other than what Glory had said?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I was part of C2 who did research on MK and APLA members, we did have photo albums of refugees and we also had names of these people that we tried to identify, and I also had an interest in that and I knew that there were names of refugees in that office.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but the question is, when you didn't know the documentation, other than the photographs, how would you go and identify documentation you've just been told of?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, we knew that Sida's office was used by refugees, where they got financial benefits from. There was documentation of these refugees, it was not only Glory Sedibe's information, we also knew that Sida helped the refugees before.

CHAIRPERSON: How far did your information go, because they were also busying themselves by paying other refugees, other than from South Africa?

MR FOURIE: Yes, we were only interested in the refugees, any refugee, not just the ANC members, because most of the recruitment was for the ANC, people would leave the country and in Swaziland or in Maputo more specifically, they would be recruited by the ANC in refugee camps. So the ninety percent of refugees went to the ANC in any case.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Were the group of people that you had left outside the offices, still outside when you came out after you had searched and removed the documents and whatever else you took from there?

MR FOURIE: I'm sorry, is that the females or the other members?

MS PATEL: That's correct, yes.

MR FOURIE: The females were still held on the floor when we left.

MS PATEL: Were you present inside when the man and the woman that Mr de Kock had referred to, were held?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I think we are talking about the same group of people. I can recall the voice of a woman that was shouting or screaming, I cannot recall if there were black men together. We may be talking about the same people. But when we were finished with the operation, when we went down to the vehicles with the documentation, etcetera, we again met somebody downstairs who then ran away. That was another person.

MS PATEL: No, the person that I - the people that I am referring to, are the people that Mr de Kock had said were instructed inside the premises, to face the wall.

MR FOURIE: That would be the same people then, that I'm talking about.

MS PATEL: Mr de Kock had said that those people were inside the Sida premises, the people that you are referring to were outside the Sida offices, not so?

MR FOURIE: No, I think you misunderstood Mr de Kock, because Sida's office was locked, there was nobody inside. There were people on the same floor of the building, but Sida's offices were locked. While Mr de Kock was busy to break open the door of Sida's office, there was nobody inside. There were people on the same floor however. There were different offices on that floor, there were attorney's offices etcetera, on that same floor, but the black people were not in the Sida office itself, they were just on the same floor on which the Sida office was.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, Mr de Kock made mention of the first floor.

MR FOURIE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, Sida's offices were on the first floor, as well as other offices of attorneys and other firms. The whole floor did not belong to Sida. And the other people came towards us, towards the Sida's office, on the way out of the building.

MS PATEL: Perhaps I might have misunderstood the evidence, Honourable Chairperson, but I recall, yes, that Mr de Kock had said that he had met the man and the woman that I'd questioned him about afterwards, that they were inside the premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Upon entry and going up to the first floor, that's where they found the offices locked, that's why he had to break open the door.

MS PATEL: Alright, sorry, I withdraw that. I'm certainly confused about who was where. Alright.

Alright, that would then accord with your written application on page 68, paragraph 9, where you speak of the women who were assaulted and told to keep quiet and then only Mr de Kock opened, or broke the front door to the premises of Sida.

MR FOURIE: That's correct, yes.

MS PATEL: Okay. Was Douw Willemse with you?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall who was with me, but he was part of the group, yes. Some of the people waited outside in the vehicles in order to warn us in case the Swazi Police would come, or anybody would come. Some of the people sat in the vehicles, not all of us went upstairs. I cannot recall who went with us upstairs.

MS PATEL: Alright. And finally, were you part of the group of people that in fact went and sifted through the documentation that was found at the Sida premises, after you got back onto the South African side?

MR FOURIE: That is correct, yes, at the Piet Retief Security Branch offices.

MS PATEL: What was the nature of the documentation that was in fact retrieved? Could you elaborate?

MR FOURIE: There were various application forms of refugees for financial assistance, there were various photographs, there were lists, accounting lists where there were large amounts of money that was paid out to people and there were also lists with names of people who received remuneration every month. It was mostly names of people and amounts that appeared on these lists.

MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson, just one question.

Mention has been made in Mr Willemse's affidavit, on page 28 of the bundle, unfortunately I did not put this to Mr de Kock, and there is mention made of shots being fired when you drove away, do you know anything about that?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson. We had various vehicles there, I do not know if one of the vehicles fired shots, I'm not aware of that, no.

ADV BOSMAN: So you did not hear any shots being fired?

MR FOURIE: No, because we made use of silencers, so I didn't hear anything.

ADV BOSMAN: And then there's also mention of a person, Deetleffs, and it's not quite clear in the way in which it was put, whether he was involved in the planning or if he was present there, can you assist us?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I do not know if he accompanied us, he was a member of the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal, he could have been part of the planning. Col de Kock would know. I cannot think that he would go with in this operation. All the people from Eastern Transvaal that I can recall was Freek Pienaar and Lappies Labuschagne, and Col de Kock also mentioned it.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to complete this, when you were coming back to the Republic of South Africa, were you followed by the Swaziland Police? This is what Willemse is saying on the same page, 28 of the paginated papers.

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, this incident led to another incident that may be dealt with at a later stage, but after the next incident we again crossed the border illegally and then the Swazi Police, or it could have been the Swazi Police, we saw their vehicles approaching us while we were crossing the border, but at no stage were they very close to us so that they chased us.

CHAIRPERSON: But this specific incident, was there any Swazi Police who followed you?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson, because after this incident we went to another incident where we committed other deeds. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sandi?

ADV SANDI: I don't have a question, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Lamey?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Fourie, the other incident was the search, or it was the topic of another hearing that will take place shortly, and that was the search of a safehouse in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Fourie, you are excused.

MR FOURIE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, are you calling any other evidence from Mr Fourie. Thank you, that concludes his application. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, the next applicant I wish to call is applicant Izak Daniel Bosch.