J DANIEL LOURENS COETSER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Coetser, you apply for amnesty before this Committee for incidents which are described as the petrol bomb attack in Mamelodi and Soshanguve, as well as an explosion in Ekangala/Bronkhorstspruit, is that correct?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that your other amnesty application ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: What page are we now?
MR LAMEY: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, the applicant's applications commences from, the initial application commences from page 50, this is just the form that was filled in and I shall in his evidence briefly refer to it. The incidents are dealt with from page 70 of bundle 2, up to and including page 76.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lamey, the incidents which we're dealing with here is the bomb attack at Soshanguve, the second one?
MR LAMEY: Bomb attacks at Mamelodi and Soshanguve, which is one attack in Mamelodi and two Soshanguve, as set out on page 70 up to and including page 73, and then one incident, explosion at Ekangala, from page 73 up to and including 76.
MR VISSER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, to interrupt my learned friend, but I'm getting confused now. Could Mr Lamey tell us what the status is of the incident mentioned at 57 to 58, because there's also reference to Mamelodi there?
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, if I could just explain that, the incidents referred to on page 56 to 58, you will note that the places on the previous page refer to Masuku, Atteridgeville, Ekangala, Mamelodi and Soshanguve. This was part of an initial application by the applicant before he obtained legal representation and during which he was assisted by the staff of the Attorney-General's office. What you find from page 62, with the annexure thereto, is an extract from a supplemented application in which the incidents are more specifically referred to under headings. And then the incident referred to initially in the first application of Atteridgeville is referred to on page 76, but that incident has already been dealt with by another Panel of the Committee. I don't know whether that clarifies it, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: If you can tell us what he was involved in, then I'm sure it will become clearer as well.
MR LAMEY: Mr Coetser, let us just go back to page 50, can you see that there was a form that you completed and which was signed in December 1996, and this was attested to before a Commissioner of Oaths in 1996?
MR COETSER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct that with your first application you were assisted by staff from the Attorney-General's office?
MR COETSER: I confirm that, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then on page 55 up to page 61, a statement is found where reference is made to the places on page 56, Masuku, Atteridgeville, Ekangala, Mamelodi and Soshanguve, is that correct?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then there is a statement of yours with regard to all of these incidents, explained from page 71 to 78.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Now I would just like to ask you, what is further dealt with in the supplementary application from page 62, is it correct that that is from page 62, the supplementary application and in annexures to that?
MR COETSER: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: And specific extracts have been made from there, the only one which is not dealt with in particular here is the bomb attack in Atteridgeville.
MR COETSER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that has already been dealt with by another Panel from the Amnesty Committee. Is it correct that you were only involved in these incidents, namely one petrol bomb attack in Mamelodi and two petrol bomb attacks in Soshanguve?
MR COETSER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: The attack in Atteridgeville, where Esther Masuku was deceased?
MR COETSER: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: And then the explosion in Ekangala.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Very well. Is it correct that on page 68 and 59 there is a brief background that you sketch with regard to your involvement in the Security Police?
MR COETSER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then in paragraph 1.8 you refer that you were present at a discussion in Brig Viktor's office - let me just find the paragraph, where you met him at Brig Viktor's office, that he indicated that "we would start eliminating political activists"?
MR COETSER: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: Is that the understanding you had from that conversation?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And is it correct that afterwards you received instructions, specifically requested by Capt Hechter then, to participate in these actions?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct that you had the opportunity to look at the particulars that you supplied on page 70 72 and 73, with regard to the petrol bomb attacks in Mamelodi and Soshanguve?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Do you confirm the correctness as it is stated there?
MR COETSER: I confirm that, yes Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then in paragraph 4 on page 71 you say that what you can recall is that Capt Hechter indicated to you that a person had died in one of these attacks.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Do you have any direct evidence of this, or more particulars than you supply there?
MR COETSER: None, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Can you briefly tell the Committee what your rank was when you received your instructions.
MR COETSER: I was a Sergeant, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And you were with the Northern Transvaal Security Branch, Section B.
MR COETSER: Yes, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And was Capt Hechter also a senior officer in that regard?
MR COETSER: Yes, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you understand that this instruction came from higher up than Capt Hechter, with all these incidents?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And from whom would this come from above Capt Hechter?
MR COETSER: I believed from the Commander, Brig Cronje, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Is that how you understood it?
MR COETSER: Yes, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You role - let us refer to the attacks in Soshanguve and Mamelodi, what was your role there?
MR COETSER: I was the driver of the minibus in which we moved in, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you leave the minibus at the places where you arrived and where you had to stop?
MR COETSER: No, Chairperson, I stayed in the minibus until after the attack.
MR LAMEY: Who identified the targets, or who indicated to you where to stop?
MR COETSER: Capt Hechter told me where to drive and where to stop, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: I would just like to ask you then, in all these incidents that you were involved in, was it yourself, Capt Hechter and Maj Viktor, that you can specifically recall?
MR COETSER: Yes, and an unknown black man that I cannot recall, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: What I would just like to ask you is, was Sgt Deon Gouws involved in any of these incidents where you were involved?
MR COETSER: No, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And Mr Eric Goosen?
MR COETSER: No he was not, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And the time period during which these incidents had taken place, you refer to it as from February to March 1986.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And if we could briefly go to the Ekangala incident, in this incident is it correct so that you once again drove the minibus?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And in this instance your inference was that an explosive device would be used.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Do you know whether any persons were killed and/or injured?
MR COETSER: I do not know, Chairperson, I could not determine whether it was so.
MR LAMEY: Did you foresee the possibility, and when I refer to this incident I also refer to the other incident, that people could be injured and/or killed?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Because of these attacks?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you bear any knowledge in any of these instances, that there was a specific purpose, or that the plan and purpose of this was to eliminate someone specifically that evening, or was it just a general attack with the foreseeability that someone could be injured or killed?
MR COETSER: It was in general, with the foreseeability that somebody could be killed and/or injured, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And with regard to the Ekangala incident you recall that there were members of the Bronkhorstspruit Security Branch present.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, I never realised that I should ask you to go slower.
MR LAMEY: I apologise.
Can we repeat that. Your recollection is that members of the Bronkhorstspruit Security Branch were also there.
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall anyone specifically?
MR COETSER: I cannot recall who it was, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then you have heard the other evidence. You make mention with regard to the Ekangala incident, that the explosive device was manufactured by the Technical Division. Can you shed some light on this? You have heard the evidence of Mr Viktor, that it was a manufactured explosive device that was made by Capt Hechter, in a type of tin.
MR COETSER: I assumed that the Technical Division would manufacture these items, Chairperson, but I cannot doubt it if Mr Hechter says that he manufactured them himself.
MR LAMEY: Did you see a tin like this before the time?
MR COETSER: Yes, I did Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Very well. And then on page 76, with regard to orders and approval, you say that you accepted that the attack had taken place in consultation and with the knowledge of Bronkhorstspruit Security Branch and also possibly the approval of Col Kendal. You do not know whether he gave instructions or approval for this?
MR COETSER: I do not know Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that in each instance where you were involved you depended on the information that Lieut Hechter had collected, you were not in a position yourself to verify this information?
MR COETSER: No, I accepted Lieut Hechter's word, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct that after the Atteridgeville incident where you heard that somebody had been killed there, that you did not want to be involved in any of these operations and you informed Brig Cronje to that effect?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And you were then excused from any further participance?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And you were not involved in any more of these incidents other than the ones you have mentioned?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Visser, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Coetser?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Coetser, I'm not sure whether I understand properly, do you have page 55 of bundle 2 before you?
MR COETSER: I have it before me, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: That is the one that you signed as it would appear from page 61, before a member of the investigative team of the Attorney-General, is that correct?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Is that your original amnesty application?
MR COETSER: This is the one that I sent to the Attorney-General.
MR VISSER: Yes, is this your original application?
MR COETSER: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And the one from page 62, is this a supplementary or replacement application?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now I wish to refer you to page 57 in order to clear up something that might be unclear. If you look at the bottom of the page you will see a small (b) Ekangala there, do you see that? Page 57.
MR COETSER: I see that.
MR VISSER: Do you see the paragraph just above that, where the paragraph reads
"I remained sitting in the vehicle"
and then you gave reasons.
MR COETSER: That is correct.
MR VISSER: To what do you refer when you say that you remained in the vehicle, because it follows on the paragraph that deals with a visit to Brig Viktor at his office in Head Office? Is there any relation between the two paragraphs or is there no relation? I can see you are confused, let me ask you this way. Did you remain in the vehicle when the people went in to speak to Brig Viktor?
MR COETSER: No, we walked to his office from Compol building.
MR VISSER: Were you present?
MR COETSER: Yes, I was.
MR VISSER: Now you are saying that Brig Viktor gave you an instruction to eliminate black activists.
MR COETSER: That's correct.
MR VISSER: What does that mean, to remove them, to kill them?
MR COETSER: That's correct, as I understood it.
MR VISSER: Did you listen to the evidence of his son, Mr Viktor who gave evidence here?
MR COETSER: I have listened, yes Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And I want to tell you that Brig Viktor also gave evidence before the original Amnesty Committee, in which he denied that this had ever happened, that he had given such an instruction and the Committee found that he made a suggestion that there had to be counter-elimination activities of bomb attacks and petrol bomb attacks, but not elimination. What do you say about that?
MR COETSER: That is how I understood it, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you possibly be mistaken with your comprehension of what was said there exactly?
MR COETSER: I could have made a mistake, yes Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I think your representative asked you this, but I want to make sure with regard to the instances about which you gave evidence, with regard paragraphs 56 to 58 and pages 70 and following in bundle 2. You cannot recall any further information? These are the instances where you refer to the Mamelodi incidents. You cannot recall any further particulars?
MR COETSER: No, I cannot.
MR VISSER: And with regard to the Ekangala incident, is it your clear recollection that Mr Viktor junior was present there?
MR COETSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't want to ask any questions Mr Goosen, seeing that Mr Alberts is not here? Do you want to ask any questions yourself?
MR GOOSEN: No thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Lamey?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Just de Jager, any questions? Advocate Sigodi?
Thank you Mr Coetser, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, at this point I just wish to ask for a short indulgence. The other applicant that I represent, Mr Oosthuizen, has arrived a couple of minutes ago, I just need to clarify one or two aspects with him.
CHAIRPERSON: No, certainly you don't have to convince us, we'll allow for you to speak to him. We'll take a short adjournment, if you can let us know when you're ready, Mr Lamey, then we can continue.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Stephanus Adriaan Oosthuizen.
