MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I intended to call incident number three. Advocate Mushasha said he would do that but seeing that he's not in I'll call number 15 and Mr van Rensburg acts for the victims in that one.
MR NDOU: Mr Chairperson, which matter is that?
MR MAPOMA: 15, incident 15.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mulaudzi.
CHAIRPERSON: Mutali is withdrawn, isn't it? Applicant Mutali, that application is withdrawn?
MR NDOU: He arrived here now, he has arrived.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mulaudzi, what language would you prefer to use?
MS MULAUDZI: I'll use Venda.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, have you any objections to the taking of the oath?
MMABATHO POPULAR MULAUDZI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members.
Ms Mulaudzi, when were you born?
MS MULAUDZI: 19th May 1970.
MR NDOU: Now you have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Limvumu, is that right?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes it is true.
MR NDOU: Now can you explain to the Committee as to how it came about that Mr Limvumu was killed?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, I can explain. Limvumu was known to be a witchcraft practising person. According to the situation at the time in the period 1988 to 1989 we had a serious problem in Venda. The National Party people, which was the ruling party at the time, was labelled with a lot of allegations and way back there was no transparency in such a way that people wouldn't know. So in the '88 period, during the during ...(inaudible) Mashege's ...(indistinct) James Mavega, Motiwana was also involved and was also killed. People were not tolerating the situation in such a way that in 1988, July, August, September, we as a youth organiser ourselves said that we had to establish a congress. Ours was Shinga Youth Congress. The main objective of the congress was to oppose and to make the government collapse at the time because the government had to go back to the then South Africa.
We were tired, we were intolerant in such a way that things were happening in Venda. It was not safe and I viewed it as a woman that I had a child whom I loved and I knew that as I will be supporting the child, she may eventually get these murderers. It really pained me and that is why as a woman I had to stand up and do something.
MR NDOU: Yes?
MS MULAUDZI: Because something had to be done with that government. I started engaging myself in a campaign to explain to the youth about the situation at the time, political situation at the time. I think indicated to them as to how the then government was oppressing us, the manner in which they were engaged in ritual killings, nepotism, killings of the comrades who were in support of politics and also the perpetual detention of those who used to give us political advise, they used to be detained quite often.
At the time, although it used to be said that Venda was an independent State, one argued that it was not. That is why the Youth Congress was established and very often I would chair the meetings and there were a lot of meetings that we were engaged in, discussing issues at the time.
Well, during the marches, we were the ones responsible and we were under the same congress. It was at the time of 2nd February 1990 that I organised the youth, that we had to hold a meeting and the meeting was continuing and we were discussing the government's activities and also witchcraft practising. Mainly what I was addressing was to show that we as Venda people we are growing, believing that a human being, if he is she's involved in ritual killing, it was not purely because he or she had moved from a household, it means that a person was an expert or had gone to somebody who had given her or him some political gains information so that once you'll end up getting involved in ritual killing.
We would believe that the parts would be used, mingle with medicine, so that according to the instruction there will be some achievement. That is why we believed that the ministers who ended up involved in ritual killing, including Piet Booi who eventually got handed into that meeting also. I do believe that in the evidence given ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: I think you should go a little bit slower because the interpreter should interpret everything and he can't keep up with you.
MS MULAUDZI: Thank you very much, Sir.
MR NDOU: Okay?
MS MULAUDZI: Well there was an indication but he went to the traditional leader, that is why the youth were able to say that we wouldn't ...(indistinct) the leaders if we do not eliminate the bases, their bases, because their bases was medicine and if that is true it would be in heart that they wanted to remain being in leadership roles. They did not want to be defeated. That is why the National Party immediately after 1979, those who were in the National Party, especially Venda people in our region, including my family, were getting R30 cheque every month. I could not understand why because I was still young but now that I'm a grown up person I now realise that it was in view of the fact that they were supporting the National Party.
Well let me continue this way, as we discussing in that way we realised that the people in my area, Shinga, whom we saw a link with the political National Party at the time, I also believe that they were witchcraft practising people at the time, a number of people. I also asked the people under me as to whether National Party people used to visit those people. When the answer was no we said that was an outset issue because our objective was to fight or eliminate any person who in his or her knowledge of medicine at the time will really contribute towards the changes at the time. That was our goal.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay, we understand that now, can we come to the meeting of the 2nd February? What did you decide on that meeting?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, I'm right there Sir. As we were discussing by the same one, then the Defence Force truck arrived. At the time they used their loud haler speaker, instructed us just to stop there immediately because the meeting was illegal and we were not prepared to stop at the time. That is why we dispersed, ran away. But however, two of our comrades were arrested.
After the truck had left we reconvened because we were so cross. We started talking through the freedom song language. The song included the late Limvumu that was emanating from the fact that Mr Limvumu used to be visited by the National Party leaders who were at the time and then we were convinced that the man somewhere, somehow was in support of the National Party people. That is why were singing down the streets of Shinga and we were joined by several other youth who heard that we were saying "join, join, ...(indistinct)". We then stationed at a place where we talk about the way forward because we realised that we were getting too late and as such there was a big problem about that. As such we had to do - and it was getting darker. We had to proceed. I was behind and the people were leading because at the time I used to be on guard because we knew that our comrades were getting detained.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on now, at this meeting were there any decisions made?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, during the meeting we had already held several other meetings other than the one and we had already identified that Mr Limvumu was having connection with the National Party, we knew that. He had already been targetted as a person identified and at the time I was trying to establish the names of those people who were being submitted and I was querying as to the involvement of several other people as to whether they were getting visitors from the National Party and as such it was deemed to be out of the question. However, the very individual, Limvumu, was the one.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you marched to his house and what happened there?
MS MULAUDZI: Freedom songs were being sung and I was at the back. They got into the lapa ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Wait before you get there, I'm interested in finding out the exact decision or the resolution of that meeting, if there were any and if there were, how that was linked to what happened afterwards.
MS MULAUDZI: Okay, thank you Sir.
After those people had been arrested, we were singing freedom songs and I asked these people as to what the way forward would be and because we were getting late and we had targetted Mr Limvumu and we were able to see him getting visitors by these National Party people and as such we had to act before the time.
ADV SIGODI: We cannot keep pace with you.
MS MULAUDZI: Okay.
ADV SIGODI: We have to take down the notes and we can't keep pace, just try to slow down?
MS MULAUDZI: Alright thank you ma'am, I had just forgotten, thank you.
MR NDOU: Okay, you can proceed slowly?
MS MULAUDZI: The same day, Mr Limvumu, we had to hunt for Mr Limvumu, so we shall get him.
ADV SIGODI: What resolutions were made at the meeting? That should be your starting point. After you had reconvened, after your two comrades had been arrested, you reconvened and then what resolutions, if any, were made at that meeting? Could you address us on that?
MS MULAUDZI: The only resolution was the fact that Mr Limvumu would have to be burned that night.
CHAIRPERSON: Why? Was it because of his relationship with the National Party?
MS MULAUDZI: Because we were also involved in the struggle to make the government collapse. I've already ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that, ma'am, I'm saying the deceased was chosen, if I understand you correctly, because of his relationship with the Nationalist Party?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, the deceased was being visited by these National Party people.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was wrong with that?
MS MULAUDZI: Because, I mean he had thorough knowledge on medicine and as such his traditional healing had connection with witchcraft practising and that was confirmed in 1985 by Nlangisani but I didn't but that in the affidavit because that was not the main objective of us killing him because of killing Nlangisani, no. That was not our main objective to eliminate him, it was just based on the government of the day.
The relationship between this man and the National Party gave us problems because we will see that they were getting support, medical support so that they will remain in their leadership role.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to what is normally referred to as muti?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: So it's not actual medicines like tablets that one will find in a chemist?
MS MULAUDZI: Well, traditional medicine, muti.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR NDOU: Okay, then you were walking behind this crowd. What then happened?
MS MULAUDZI: Well we arrived. Okay, before we got into the kraal of the deceased people said now that we've arrived, I volunteered that I'll provide a spare tyre and paraffin.
CHAIRPERSON: In order to burn him?
MS MULAUDZI: Not the house, the man, I'm terribly sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't follow, just repeat that?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes the man, not the house, sorry.
When the people arrived there at the lapa they were standing around the fence and others were rushing the lapa. Myself and comrade Mengeni said no, we must stand on guard because now we are threats and police might come back again and then we must remain at the back while the guards were getting the job done.
MR NDOU: And how big was this crowd?
MS MULAUDZI: We were at about one hundred and something.
MR NDOU: Yes?
MS MULAUDZI: As I was standing from the back, immediately I heard the sounds of the stones at the time the person was being pelted by the stones. It was during the night and it was dark and I was unable to see what was happening there or as to how he was being pelted with the stones but I could really feel that the stones were pelting that person.
MR NDOU: And how far away were you standing from this crowd?
MS MULAUDZI: I'm not that good in mathematics but I think I was at a distance of 50 metres from the scene of the crime where he was being pelted by the stones because I was outside of the lapa and I was in the middle of the mealies and I was behind from each and every person who was there but I just estimate that it could be 50 metres.
MR NDOU: And you associated yourself with what was happening in that kraal?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I associated myself with that because I was involved in that and I went to the home of the people or to the scene of the incident and I was there guarding the police so that when they arrive I must alert the people so that they can run away.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew what was going to happen?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I was aware since it it's something that we have already discussed about.
CHAIRPERSON: And guarding and watching out for the police was part of the plan?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes and even guarding because we were already ...(indistinct) because our two comrades were already arrested so I must keep on guard so that if they can by any virtue appear, we must run away. So I was prepared to alert others so that we could run away.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And you supplied the tyre and the paraffin?
MS MULAUDZI: Okay ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I'm only asking you, you supplied it?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, yes Sir.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you knew exactly that they're going to burn him?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I was convinced.
MR NDOU: That is all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?
MR NDOU: That is all, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you a question, you must listen very carefully. I'm not talking about your beliefs now, I'm talking about your beliefs then. Did you believe, like the others, that these witches or wizards were in fact able to assist these unacceptable parliamentarians to maintain their power?
MS MULAUDZI: By then, yes Sir, I believed it in my heart because we were raised up to believe that witchcraft exists and muti, traditional muti works.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you. Mr van Rensburg?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, may I just ask, there's some things that I have to consult on that I didn't have the opportunity before, I'm just asking for 10 minutes if it's possible?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MMABATHO POPULAR MULAUDZI: (s.o.u.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I won't be long.
Ms Mulaudzi, would you care to explain to us what do you see the difference or how do you describe the difference between a medicine man and a witch?
MS MULAUDZI: (s.u.o.) One who uses medicine, perhaps explain vividly to me what you actually expect of me?
MR VAN RENSBURG: I expected you to explain to me the difference between a medicine man and a witch?
MS MULAUDZI: I can give you an example of myself. If I'm using muti, I would have gone to a traditional healer who will give me so that I shall use it if I'm ill. A witch who will take one's life, a witch who will cause some bad omens in a human being.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, now what was your problem if you keep these two definitions in mind, what was your problem with the deceased, that he was a medicine man or that he was a witch?
MS MULAUDZI: Are you referring to Mr Limvumu?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.
MS MULAUDZI: Meaning that he was a muti person?
CHAIRPERSON: He's asking you what do you define him as, a witch or a medicine man?
MS MULAUDZI: He was a witch. He had bad traditional healing.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat that? He had a what?
MS MULAUDZI: Bad traditional healing. Bad traditional healing is witchcraft.
MR VAN RENSBURG: From the translation I understood your evidence to be that the main problem that you had against him was that he was supplying medicine to some people related or opposing to the struggle, is that correct?
MS MULAUDZI: The person was giving medicine or muti to those who were in the National Party who wanted to remain in leadership forever and we were saying the government should go back to South Africa, that is why in view of that, seeing those people visiting the deceased's house, we were worried.
MR VAN RENSBURG: So the problem that you had with the deceased was not that he was a witch in the sense that he was suspected of being involved in the killing of any person?
MS MULAUDZI: The person I'm referring to was a witch or wizard. I also demonstrated to Judge Pillay that I did not put it down on my affidavit because it was not our main objective that he killed Nlalisande Mtembo. What we had ...(indistinct) as comrades, was that it was confirmed in 1985, during Nlalisande's death, it was merely confirmed.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Ms Mulaudzi, did you expect the deceased of killing anyone using witchcraft.
MS MULAUDZI: That he was a witch or wizard was confirmed after he had killed somebody. That is why in 1985 we knew him as a wizard.
ADV SIGODI: This person that he killed in 1985, how did this person die?
MS MULAUDZI: Hey, something very terrible happened. In Shinga we did not have toilets in our households because it is in a deep rural area and as such we will go to the bush to answer the call of nature and one will just meet other elderly people helping themselves in the bush. As such, one day, the late Nlisande, as she was going to the bush, she met the late Limvumu, whom we burnt, he too was helping himself and he had undressed as well and the child laughed at him ...(intervention)
ADV SIGODI: I don't want to hear all the details, was she strangled or did she die of a heart attack or something like that? We don't want the details.
MS MULAUDZI: Okay, thank you. Well as she was laughing, the old man got cross, that is what she told me before she died because I enquired, I asked her. I actually wanted this understanding to be clear, I won't be long. I think she spent quite a long time, she was just laughing continuously and he got cross and said to her "this is the last time you are laughing at me and you won't see how far life goes with you" and as such, in our culture if you are told that you'll only see the sun rise and not sunset, it means that you are going to be killed. If somebody says that to you and you get sick and you die, therefore the ...(indistinct) is associated with that person. As such Nlisande got ill and she died lately and as such she was taken to Jilisine to the morgue. However, she was refused because they saw her fingers moving because they could not accept that person. So she was sent back ...(intervention)
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you very much.
MS MULAUDZI: And that death ...(intervention)
MR VAN RENSBURG: Just wait a minute please. Except for that person that you're now testifying about who died in 1985, was there any other person that the community or yourself suspectedly died because of the deceased's involvement? And please just answer the question, don't give us all this background, I'll ask you for it if we need it. Do you understand the question?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I do.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Please answer the question?
MS MULAUDZI: No.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. Now the situation is that you let this deceased live from 1985 when he now allegedly caused this other person's death, why all of a sudden in 1990 you decide to kill him because of something that he did in 1985?
CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not the reason they killed him in terms of her evidence. The evidence that she's given, that he was killed because he thought to be assisting the parliamentarians and when you asked what he did as a witch, it's just killing that she refers to a being proof that he was able to do so.
ADV SIGODI: Tell me, where there any ritual murders in your location at that time, when people were killed? Any ritual murders?
MS MULAUDZI: Around - Chera Mashege's place was ten kilometres away from my place and Victor Moytampewana's place 20 kilometres away from my place.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, so are you saying that that alleged killing or involvement in the killing of this youth in 1985 had absolutely nothing to do with the killing of the deceased, is that your version?
MS MULAUDZI: No, no connection at all.
MR VAN RENSBURG: So that's why I say you eventually, and that's your evidence, you killed him because of his role as a medicine man, not as much as a witch, isn't that so?
MS MULAUDZI: As somebody who was a wizard and all I'm saying is - please tolerate what I'm saying, we knew this person as confirmed as a wizard in 1985 after he had killed somebody or caused ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe this can help it and just keep your answer short? If the political leaders of the National Party or whoever wanted assistance of muti, who would that person go to, to a witch or a medicine man?
MS MULAUDZI: Thank you. They will go to a person who will be able to give them support and that person will be a traditional healer or a wizard who was known as an expert because there are those who have strong mutis. That is why we had a problem during the National Party Government, visiting there.
CHAIRPERSON: No, but the medicine man that you described just now, is that if you were sick you'd go to the medicine man, he'd give you something to take or to drink or to rub and you'd be cured? Understand? That's how I understood your answer?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Now would the politician who seeks this muti to keep his position and stifled progress of the community, would he go to a medicine man for this muti or not? Would he be able to get this strong muti to keep his political position from a medicine man that you described as giving you something to get better?
MS MULAUDZI: They would go to a traditional healer and to a wizard.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Suppose I want keep in power, if I'm ill I'm going to a medicine man, a traditional healer. But I'm not ill, I'm well but I want to keep the power to suppress people. To whom should I go?
MS MULAUDZI: You'll go to a wizard or a traditional healer.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what would that traditional healer - if I want to keep power, what would that traditional healer be able to do to help me?
MS MULAUDZI: She will give me muti.
CHAIRPERSON: And what, if you were sick one day, could you go to that same traditional healer who would give you something to cure you from your illness?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now do I understand you correctly then, if someone wanted to have power, political power, that person could also go to a traditional healer to obtain muti?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why weren't then the medicine people also attacked as opposed to wizards or witches?
MS MULAUDZI: Are you referring to us who'll go to them in order that they could assist us or which ones are you referring to in particular?
CHAIRPERSON: The medicine man, you say, would either give you medicine to cure from your illness or give you muti to maintain your political power, understand?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, they both will give me medicine - I mean muti to suppress other people.
CHAIRPERSON: Why wouldn't such people be the targets of the youth, let's call it that, at that time?
MS MULAUDZI: Are you referring to both?
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm referring to the medicine man, not the witch. You have just told me that the medicine man is able to give muti to anybody to retain political power. Never mind the witch now, why would the medicine man not be a target of the youth?
MS MULAUDZI: Okay Sir, you are referring to the traditional leader that why didn't we attack the traditional leader?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS MULAUDZI: That is why Mr Limvumu was attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: But you described him as a witch who was able to give bad medicine? That's what you told us just now?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes in Venda there's not a big difference between a traditional healer and a witchcraft practising person, they are in the same category although the activities will define how this person is practising because you know, in a way, it is associated with the ancestral spirit and something along those lines. Well, if this person then decides to kill other people, it is then said that this is bad traditional healing, it is not used to assist people or to support people in whatever they need. I think Mr van Rensburg you understood me now?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you explain to us, for instance, muti received from Mr Limvumu and was given to a politician, how could that help the politician to sustain political power?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to do so?
MS MULAUDZI: I'm really unable to explain that. In a way what we believed in is that the muti will make that we are defenceless and as such we believe strongly that it is very useful to use muti and as such I believe that the National Party people who were ruling at the time also believed that the muti will help them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, can't we get to the nub of the case?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
That, as you've already testified, that place where the deceased lived, was in the deep rural area, is that correct?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, indeed.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes and did you yourself see these politicians and people supporting the National Party visiting the deceased?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I did.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Would they get there by cars or how would they get there to his house?
MS MULAUDZI: They used to leave cars at the chief's place and I remember Mr Itchebasa saying - or visiting the late - or using the 4x4 car. He parked the car at the chief's kraal and went to the house of the deceased. At the time when Mr Itchebasa went there I ran straight to the late Comrade Todani Banogi and said he's a National Party person and we went straight to where the car had been parked and we saw him leave after he had left Mr Limvumu's place.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I put it to you that there was no such politicians visiting the deceased at the time, that he was a traditional leader who sold muti to everyone that asked him but there was no political people visiting him at the time?
MS MULAUDZI: Truly speaking, we did not imagine this or make any mistake. They used to visit.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I have no further questions to this witness, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
MR NDOU: Nothing further, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mulaudzi are you in prison?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes I am.
CHAIRPERSON: And how long have you been in prison?
MS MULAUDZI: I've been in prison since 1993 by the 10th September.
CHAIRPERSON: And what sentences are you serving?
MS MULAUDZI: 15 years sentence on a murder charge of Mr Limvumu.
CHAIRPERSON: What's your views on witchcraft now?
MS MULAUDZI: Could you repeat the question?
CHAIRPERSON: What's your views on witchcraft today?
MS MULAUDZI: Well in my view, I just want to say Chairperson, that when I was in prison something really happened in my life. I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and as I speak the Government that we wanted, that we did not want at the time, collapsed at the time and we went back to this South African Government and as such I believe that there's no association with witchcraft at the moment. And as I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour now, I do not want to associate myself with witchcraft and I promise that if I could be pardoned, I am going to involve myself in campaigns and projects that teach people and the mistakes associated with the witchcraft practising. I just want to be a good citizen who is productive, who has love in the community and that is why I'm applying for amnesty, I'm not really in line with witchcraft any more.
CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that witchcraft still is in operation and I appreciate what you've just said, if you are granted amnesty, how you will deal with the issues. At that time there was a battle going on, a political battle and certain things occurred. In some quarters they say it was wrong and other quarters they say it was a necessary facet of that struggle. But today we have come a long way. It is unfortunate that you have not been able to participate in what we've gone through so far in this new South Africa, but have you got anything to say to the families or family members of Mr Limvumu?
MS MULAUDZI: Yes, I want to say particularly that - well, I thought you were not going to ask me because I wanted to appeal to you to really mention that and Wandalele Limvumu and the sister, I have really wronged you, I contributed to the death of your personal family member. The time when you really loved him. When I look back, I do realise that the situation of fighting against the government really contributed to us doing that. However, I truly say I'm pleading for forgiveness. This will never happen again. I promise you. I just want to say again that I'm so thankful and grateful in such a way that you did indicate that you are not really worried about the case in such a way that you did not really punish me. You seem to have forgiven me because you'll visit my family and will meet and discuss issues around their health and other things. Now you are in this Commission and the two of us greeted each other and as such if you had not forgiven me, you wouldn't be doing that. I thank you for that and I believe that I've learnt a great challenge. I am challenged, truly. Please pardon me, forgive me, I won't repeat that.
For the seven years that I've spent in prison, I spent it horribly. My child grew up without a mother and it is really affecting her at school. If you forgive me and if I were to leave here, the child will really grow under the guidance of the mother and myself, as a woman, will go out and build the community and the South African country which is quite democratic, which I also fought for. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
