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Type AMNESTY HEARING
Starting Date 20 April 1998
Names MFANELO MATSHAYA, LUTHANDO DYASOPHU
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Silva, I would advise that you get into contact with those who set out the rolls in these matters, explain to whoever is going to do so, the urgency of the matter and please see to it that this matter receives priority, since seeing that the applicants are still incarcerated.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, we have a second matter sir. The incident involved in this matter sir, is the death of Mr Sipho Phungulua. The applicants in this matter Honourable Mr Chairman, is Mr Ndibulele Ndzamela, Pumlani Kubukeli and Mfanelo Matshaya.
MR NOTUNUNU: Honourable Chair, may I confirm that I appear for three applicants in this matters and for the purpose of records, Honourable Chair, my name is NM Notununu. Honourable Chair, I was saying I do confirm that I appear for three applicants in this matter, and Honourable Chair for the purposes of the record, ny mane is Notununu and the initials N.M. Notununu, and I am appearing for the three applicants in the matter sir.
MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, there is no legal representation for the victims as yet in this matter, but the victims have been duly notified of the hearing. They are before the Committee, they are appearing in this matter too. Any way they are present Chairperson, and I have had a chat with them about the matter and I have advised them of their interest and that I will be able to take care of their interest accordingly.
CHAIRPERSON: I have just discussed the following issue with my two colleagues. We seem to be in agreement because it is convenient, the nature of the affidavits are that there is one main deponent and the other two applicants align themselves totally with the contents of the main affidavit.
Unless there is cogent reasons, we do not see the necessity for the two who align themselves with the main affidavit, to come and give evidence merely to say under oath that they align themselves with it.
MR NOTUNUNU: Honourable Chairman, thank you very much then. Honourable Chair, I will start by saying that this is an application in terms of Section 18 of course of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, 34 of 1995.
What I have done here, this also involves the death or killing of Mr Phungulua who was gunned down sir in Khangaliswe some time in June of 1990. What I have done here sir, Honourable Chair and members, was to comply one lengthy affidavit. The person who have deposed thereto is Mr Mfanelo Matshaya, one of the applicants.
The others, what they have actually done is simply to confirm the contents and the facts of the affidavit as deposed to by Mr Matshaya. I may mention sir, that I have done that because I have felt that if they go again (indistinct) be it the same thing. But I am indebted to the Honourable Chair to in fact say that in fact there would be no point of them going, making some other lengthy affidavits.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way, that there is no apparent point at this time. There may be cogent reasons by victims or some other person may deem it necessary for them to testify, in which case the decision would be theirs and yours.
MR NOTUNUNU: I thank the Honourable Chair. As I have already said Honourable Chair, it is an affidavit of Mr Mfanelo Matshaya that I have prepared. I propose to read the affidavit through for the purpose of the record, I will thereafter, after I have gone through, reading through the affidavit to the record, call Mr Matshaya to just make some few points.
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair. Honourable Chair, our application as I have already indicated, we have made the affidavit of Mfanelo Matshaya and as I already indicated Honourable Chair, the application is in terms of Section bla, bla, bla, but what is actually happening Honourable Chair, herein is that we have in fact complied with the provisions of the Amnesty Act, in that the offence or the act in question was in fact committed with a political objective, and further Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel, that it in fact occurred within, that is before the cut off date, and further than that, we have in fact made a full disclosure of the circumstances under which this whole thing occurred.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Notununu, the actual facts of the merits as I understand the affidavit, falls directly within the definition of the Human Rights Violations, therefore we have a public hearing. Those facts are to be testified to by the applicant himself.
EXAMINATION BY MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair. Mr Matshaya, you have already deposed to an affidavit which has been handed over to Honourable Chair and also the Honourable Panel. Do you in fact confirm that?
MR NOTUNUNU: The Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel, would like to know why you killed Mr Phungulua? Can you tell the Honourable Chair and the Honourable members of the Panel the reason why you killed Mr Phungulua? Tell us.
MR NOTUNUNU: Now, we are in a situation now where you say there was a war between, no, no, I have asked you what was the relationship between yourselves as MK cadres and also the Askaris, you have just described before the Honourable Chair.
MR NOTUNUNU: It is because they would be in the forefront and they would identify us, and roadblocks, raids, you would be walking in town, they would be the ones who were used by the Security Police to identify us all the time.
MR NOTUNUNU: Did the enemy, the Honourable Chair, Mr Matshaya, wants to know, you are saying the Askaris played a big role because they were with the enemy, they were on the side of the enemy, going with the enemy, the Honourable Chair now wants to know whom are you referring to when you are talking about the enemy?
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Mr Chairman, the Honourable Chair wants to know why you thought or why were the apartheid Security Forces as you have mentioned, indicated, were regarded as enemy, why did you call them the enemy, the Security Forces, former apartheid Security Forces?
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much for that Mr Matshaya. Now, let's come to the late Mr Phungulua. You are saying Mr Phungulua was in fact an Askari and you have made the description of the Askari. Could you elaborate on that so that the Honourable Chair and the Honourable members of the Panel, could really know what is going on?
MR NOTUNUNU: Okay, now let's talk, you have indicated that the said Dyasophu was also an Askari. Now, what I want you to do now is to tell the Honourable Chair why you regarded those two, that is the deceased Mr Phungulua, and Mr Dyasophu who escaped killing on that day, as Askaris?
MR MATSHAYA: Yes, they were involved in a mutiny, they were arrested by the ANC. They were supposed to have been shot, they escaped a military tribunal. The ANC forgave them and released them, the leadership. They were taken to Tanzania, deployed to other areas to be rehabilitated.
MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Matshaya, do you know how the two, that is the late Mr Phungulua and also Mr Dyasophu, do you know how they got to the country, because you have indicated how they left the ANC, in particular the MK, how they left the MK and how they joined the country, they came into the country?
MR MATSHAYA: What happened is we just saw them holding a news conference on TV, speaking against the ANC and its leadership, even the military command of the ANC. They had complaints that they uttered publicly on TV, there was a press conference.
MR MATSHAYA: The purpose of the meeting, we went to inform them as the MK members, then there were the internal leadership in Transkei. We had to inform them about the security crisis that was prevailing at the time.
MR NOTUNUNU: I see. Now besides, Mr Matshaya, informing them, was there anything which really depended on them? What I want to know, I want to know the role they played in the killing of Mr Phungulua if there is any?
Could you tell us how you went to a place where you found and killed this Mr Phungulua? It is common cause of course that this occurred at Khangaliswe township, just outside Umtata. How did you go there Catera?
MR NOTUNUNU: Now, did you by this act Mr Matshaya, gain anything personally like being paid for killing these people, this person? Did you have any personal gain which you got through this because of having done this?
We did not do what we did for personal gain, even Dyasophu, we had followed him, we saw where he was going. We went and shot where he was, and people died. We ask for forgiveness. Even the families who lost their people, please may the Judge be aware that this request is from the heart.
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, I think that is all I needed to get from the witness, unless there are some other things of course which I haven't touched. Thank you very much Honourable Chair, thank you very much Honourable members of the Panel.
MR MATSHAYA: There was no investigation as such, because they publicly declared on TV, the publicly spoke against the ANC on TV, they called themselves the new ANC, that Chairman Twala. There was a group of them, after they defected from the ANC.
MR MATSHAYA: Yes, they were upholding the apartheid system, because they were part of the propaganda, they did not come to South Africa through the right channels, they defected from the ANC. They did not come here through ANC channels, the military command, the infiltration that we used as members of MK, we were already inside the country.
What happened is we just heard that they were arrested for a month under Section 29. Under Section 29 guerillas would be arrested for up to three years in jail. The next thing we knew, they were on TV, talking against the same organisation that they claimed to belong to, together with the leadership.
Certainly then also due to the fact that they were involved in a mutiny and killed people, innocent people, they were forgiven. After they had been forgiven, they left the rehabilitation centres, came back to South Africa. Hlongwane, their leader was swearing, saying that, publicly saying that he was going to kill Mandela and Holomisa.
MR MATSHAYA: They were not just an enemy on their own, if you were in South Africa at that time, walking around with the Security, being helped by the government, it was clear Judge that they were Askaris, working for the Security Establishment of the Boers.
When they got into the country, South Africa, they came in differently under the Police, they were detained under Section 29, however, even before we knew from the ANC what the position was, they were released and they were on TV, swearing against the leadership as I said.
They even divulged atrocities that were committed in Quattro, they did not however divulge that they were in a meeting where comrades were killed, and that they were forgiven in a Truth Commission in exile.
MR MATSHAYA: Twala was the Chairman, he mentioned the number in the group. Twala was representing them, I knew that they were a group from exile, that had defected and that they were in the country. I did not see him on TV.
MR MATSHAYA: Yes, exactly. I just wanted to highlight one point, even if they did not come here in one plane, one flight, when they got here, they regrouped with Twala's group and they were all one big group.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, in fact Mr Dyasophu contests that they were Askaris. Thank you sir. Was there any difference that existed between a person who have defected from the ANC in exile and an Askari, during those years, that is 1990 in particular?
MR MATSHAYA: No, there was no difference, because Dyasophu knows as he sits there, if you defect from the army and you cross the borders back to South Africa, you were a security threat to your own comrades, because the Boers were not going to leave you, for you to be free to move around.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Then in the affidavit of Mr Kubukeli on page 22, he talks about the meeting with the ANC, Umtata branch, at Prince Madikizela's house. You requested that meeting you say?
MR MATSHAYA: As they had called themselves the new ANC, it is obvious that they wanted to bring confusion. Surely they were debriefed by the Security Forces, how can they come here, how can they be so bold and come here and think that they can build a new ANC here at home?
It was clear what they were doing, they had not even consulted the MK command that was on the ground in the region, at the time. The ANC Officer was not the one that was going to shoot them, we were the ones.
MR MATSHAYA: They took a chance coming to the Transkei, they knew that there was a military structure here. They knew that going to the ANC wouldn't solve anything, they knew that the ANC was still underground in the Transkei.
They knew that the Boers were threatening us at the time, Askaris were moving up and down, surveilling and killing people. Like an incident in (indistinct. Two years back they shot at people in broad daylight, Zayile Mayape and Gift, those were our comrades.
ADV GCABASHE: What would you have expected them to do had they wanted to reconcile with the ANC at that point, you said they were taking a chance coming to this office. What would have been the correct thing to you, what would have made sense?
They could not take decisions, the branch could not take a decision, they were just causing confusion. They would have to go back to Lusaka or Angola, they were already forgiven after having killed innocent people any way.
You couldn't do that, it was not done. After they had crossed the borders, and all of a sudden they were speaking against the ANC, causing confusion. They confused people who regarded the ANC as a good organisation. I don't think the leadership of the ANC would accept that either, it was absolutely wrong.
MR MATSHAYA: As we were in the command, we used our own discretion. We knew the operational situation even the leadership outside the country, depended on our reports. We took a decision to eliminate any Askari within the Transkeian borders, even in South Africa, if we knew the base, we would go and raid it.
We took the decision, nobody came to us and said shoot these people or go and report to whoever. We took the decision, because we were in a position as the leadership of Umkonto We Sizwe, at the time, to take this decision in the region.
ADV POTGIETER: Yes, you were acting pursuant to a general position of MK that Askaris are part of the enemy, and as such the are legitimate targets, and as such you are given the war situation that existed, you were entitled to act against them as you have? Would that be a fair summary of what the position of MK was on Askaris at that stage?
ADV POTGIETER: Okay, then if I understand you correctly you say that you could even be categorised as part of the leadership structure of MK, but the position was in so far as MK was concerned, that these two persons, the deceased and the other person, were Askaris, they were regarded as such?
MR MATSHAYA: Definitely, the entire group that had defected. They complained to comrade Sisulu saying that they had been labelled, that comrade Sisulu who was in the leadership of the ANC, had labelled them as the enemy agent.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want to find this out. While you may not have seen him with Security Policemen or any apartheid instrument, did you get to know that Mr Twala was an Askari through your surveillance or information gathering mechanisms?
MR MATSHAYA: Yes, we ended up knowing that because immediately after they defected, the ANC prepared a statement, after they left the camps without permission of the leadership. Some went to Kenya, some went to the UN embassies. They wanted refugee status.
At the time there were no High Commissioners. When they got to South Africa, they were all detained for a month or two, under Section 29. They then went out to the press conference. I could not believe that someone, after being arrested by the Security Police, could freely go to a press conference like that.
That was a first. I don't even know who had organised the press conference for them. However, what they said was really bad. They declared to the public that they were not ANC members. How can you tell people that you were now members of the new ANC, that you were no longer under O.R. Thambo.
Anybody in our position, we thought that perhaps there was a coup, because even in exile when there was a mutiny, they wanted a new leadership by force. Then they come here and refer to themselves as the new ANC, it was the same thing that they wanted to do back in the camps. They wanted change within the ANC structures in a violent way.
I don't know whether they had consulted with the ANC leadership back home, that they had come here and opened a new leadership, new ANC. We were never briefed, we would be briefed therefore if they had done so by the ANC, that we should leave them alone. We did not get that report, therefore to defend and protect the comrades around here, we decided to eliminate them.
MR MAPOMA: No sir. Excuse me Mr Chairman, I think I will have to consult with the families of the victims and also with Mr Dyasophu in particular because at the time when I consulted with him before, he sounded that he won't have to testify, but I guess perhaps he needs to testify after I consult with him, if need be.
MR MAPOMA: You have heard the applicants now applying for amnesty, they have given evidence here indicating the reasons why they apply for amnesty and they have said that you were one of those who defected from the ANC, do you confirm that you defected from the ANC?
What I want to clarify is in the press conference that we had, we had not intended to have that press conference at all. What prompted us to have that press conference was the statement by leader Walter Sisulu.
MR DYASOPHU: Yes, initially we did not intend to have any press conference, but then what prompted us to have that press conference, was the statement by leader comrade Sisulu, to the effect that we are Askaris and we are being detained, it is not the genuine detention, we were just people of the Security, we were just going there for debriefing.
Now, that really didn't go down well with us, because we knew that the leader himself, Walter Sisulu, knew the facts because he had been to Lusaka, he had been to Tanzania and whilst we were there, and people told them the truth, what was actually happening there in exile.
When we come here, he says, I think he was countering us, but what he implied was that we were informers and that didn't, we didn't like it because actually when somebody calls somebody an informer, in other words he is saying that he should be killed, he is giving out an order. That was confirmed recently by, just now by Matshaya that once a leader says somebody is an informer, that person, in other words you are declaring a death against that person.
Now, we had to clear our names so the press conference was a name clearing exercise and another thing, we called for a Commission of Enquiry, that was another main thing. We called for a Commission of Enquiry into the atrocities that had been happening in exile.
MR DYASOPHU: Actually ANC we never ceased as such to be members of the ANC, but what happened is that when our lives were threatened, whilst we were still in Tanzania, when our lives were threatened because we saw that we were going to be jailed again and this time we knew, we were going to die, we decided that we should run away. Run away to Dar-es-Salaam were we declared ourselves as refugees.
But now, the condition was that we should first resign. We told them that we are not actually resigning from the ANC because we see that ANC is our organisation, it is a people's organisation of South Africa. Actually it is just individuals who are doing all this things, but these individuals are in powerful places, positions, so making the whole thing seem as if it is the ANC, but we know that it is not the ANC because it is not the policy of the ANC that such things should happen.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, you have indicated that there are some areas which you disagree with Mr Matshaya on when he was giving his evidence. Can you just explain your side of the story regarding those areas which you disagree with him?
MR DYASOPHU: Yes, first of all I heard him talking about, okay, he refers to us as Askaris. But I would like to say that I am not an Askari, I was not an Askari and none of us in that group was an Askari, for your information.
Because Askaris actually were later, I mean around 1991, 1992 they were disbanded and when they were disbanded, they were given moneys. I mean moneys, I wish I could get that money, but I never got that money. So I am not an Askari. This is for your information.
Actually had I been an Askari, how could it happen that later the ANC now, takes me to Walmansthal and then I get to be with the new SANDF, that is a contradiction. There is a contradiction somewhere there because I didn't go there through the SADF, I went through the ANC, I was registered as a member, former member of MK. That is how I got to be a member of the SANDF.
MR MAPOMA: Sorry, can you just make this clear, all I want to know is whether at the time when you were in Umtata, during that period when Mr Sipho Phungulua was killed, were you in good terms with the African National Congress?
MR DYASOPHU: Actually what happened is that we had prior, before we went to PE where actually Sipho comes from, and there we met many relevant ANC aligned structures people, and we told them our story and what happened is that they accepted us to the ANC ranks. They said we should help them and then actually what they found out is that we are not against ANC per se but just against certain actions of certain individuals who happened to be leaders and when you happen to talk against a leader, it seems as if you are talking against the organisation.
What happened is that we just gave each other responsibilities, Twala you are going to talk about the period from such a time to such a time and I am going to talk about such a time to such a time, and somebody will talk about such a time to such a time, because the whole history is so long, no man can - so what happened is that I can say the press or even the State Security wanted to promote, to single out Twala as a leader, but we told him no, don't fall prey to that nonsense, we are all together here, and what we are doing, we are not doing it for ourselves. We are doing it for those who died for the struggle outside and those who are still in prison in Quattro and other places.
MR DYASOPHU: Well, I am born and bred here in Umtata so I took it that, well since Sipho have cleared his name and he was accepted in the region of the PE region, I thought the same could happen here.
So I went there in that spirit really, we went there in that spirit that these people are going to accept us, because they will soon realise that we are not enemies of the ANC. So we went there in that good spirit and we were never armed.
I was never armed, ever, since I arrived in this country. I never carried a gun, till today I don't carry a gun. I don't have such problems of carrying guns and they are too heavy sometimes. I went there in that good spirit, unarmed, just armed with reconciliation in our hearts. That is all I can say.
MR DYASOPHU: Yes, we came to reconcile, to clarify our position, to clear our name and for me to remain in Umtata and carry on with work, whether it will be for the organisation or I can just maybe have some job of my own.
MR DYASOPHU: No, another thing he said was that we were insulting the leadership during press conferences. That I must say is not true, we never insulted anybody and that we wanted to be leaders or have another new leadership, that is also not true.
MR DYASOPHU: Yes, I think what we had highlighted is that even, what led to our imprisonment to Quattro was that the ANC was no more going according to its principles, that after every four years there should be a national conference held where leadership will be democratically elected, that doesn't mean that we are not satisfied, we want a new leadership, it is just that we wanted the democracy, the ANC principles to be practised but unfortunately that led us to be victimised and imprisoned in Quattro. There is a lot I can say but I would like to keep to your questions.
MR DYASOPHU: When I say we were unhappy with the leadership, yes we were unhappy with the way things were going, the struggle was continuing inside the country, even outside, we were victimising each other.
The ANC Security Forces were just harassing us, beating us, torturing us, imprisoning us, so such things can only be blamed on the leadership and if it so happens that people in a democratic elections, in a democratic election, happen to choose other leaders, then that is democracy, but now what we had there was a scenario where those leaders did not want there to be any national conference where there will be democratically, where there will be elections democratically.
MR DYASOPHU: I want this to be clear, that is if we go to elections, okay, maybe it might seem as if - I want to say, a leader who knows that he is for the right cause, shouldn't counter democratic elections, something which is there, which is (indistinct) in the policies and the constitution of the organisation.
We were putting the organisation first and then the leaders come second. That is why it is difficult for me to be against the ANC as such because I know the ANC is, the ANC's objectives are my objectives and they have always been my objectives.
MR DYASOPHU: At the beginning you know, I came here really to reconcile with these people and I still want to reconcile with them, because what I know is that they didn't do this out of their own will and I proved that.
Now, but the way Matshaya puts it, sometimes leaves me wondering whether he still regards me as an enemy, I think he still has some room of, because he still believes that he was justified to kill, to kill Sipho and some of his statements are untrue. That is why sometimes I begin to doubt whether I should forgive, I mean should accept his giving amnesty, really, because some of the things that he says ...
MR DYASOPHU: Okay. What I am saying is that having heard his statement and having read his affidavit, I think I disagree with certain, first of all he calls us Askaris. Well, I say that I disagree with that.
My proof is that Askaris, this is something historical, Askaris were given hand shakes, golden hand shakes. Now, I, I never got any hand shake. Well, if I am an Askari, why didn't I get a hand shake, that money?
Thirdly, really, I didn't have, what would move me to be, to work for the Boers really. Okay, people who work for the Boers, end up having money. Some join under threat and stress and pain and others join for money, but at the end of the day, they all get money, but I would like you to go to my home, (indistinct), my mother died poor, my father died poor. After this death of Sipho, I am homeless.
MR MAPOMA: Okay, thank you. Are you, you said you want to give evidence in order to clear out some of the statements made by Mr Matshaya during the time he was giving evidence and you have cleared some of them.
MR DYASOPHU: Yes, another thing is this one of Hlongwane. Recog, we phoned Recog, but Hlongwane was not there. When Hlongwane came back home, fortunately or unfortunately I was not in Johannesburg, I was in Cape Town that time, trying to deal with this case of Sipho Phungulua.
Now, when he came there, these other guys I was with, that is Twala and others, around Johannesburg, they tried to okay, to introduce him to Recog, but he said no Recog is too lenient to the ANC, he is going to form his own organisation and that he did.
When we were in Quattro, he was in Quattro, but in Quattro inmates don't see each other. If you are in this room, you don't see people in that other room, and so it so happened that while he was in Quattro, I was in another cell.
And now here back home, when he was in Johannesburg, I was in Cape Town at that time, and after that when I came back from Cape Town to Johannesburg, he was in Durban and ever since he has been, so he said that we are lenient towards the ANC, we still have some sentiments for the ANC and yet he would like to curse, so we said, no, no, this is not the way.
MR DYASOPHU: All I can say, it is up to them. You see, this is something that comes from inside, somebody might come at this time, occasion in history and say I am asking for amnesty and well, it is a right time, but I think we should help each other here.
He should help me, I should help him. I would like, there is another thing I would like to highlight, what happened is that I really wanted to find out whether these guys are doing this out of their own, or was it something from somebody else. What I did was that I found out no, these people were not enemies, my enemies, were not after me.
Actually what I found is that Matshaya did not know me, Matshaya one day I went to his place in Sprick Street, he didn't know me. When I arrived there, Matshaya didn't, he turned around, he greeted us and I said this is Matshaya, let me find out now whether this Matshaya is going to remember me, but I found out that no, Matshaya doesn't recognise me.
MR DYASOPHU: I would like to differ during this incident of the killing of Sipho, because Matshaya wants to give us the impression that he was also practically there, in the planning and all these things, he gives the impression that he was always there, but I would like to say that I differ with him, because on that day, he was called. He was called by this Kheza Mbethi, this is where really I find this, I become frustrated now because I think they would mention somehow ...
MR DYASOPHU: I have evidence in the sense that we were inside the ANC offices, and he was called. He came there and he talked to Kheza Mbethi and Kheza Mbethi kept referring to us, and he kept looking at us, so you could see that these people were talking about us, and thereafter, soon after, he left.
One other thing that I find very much frustrating is that there is no mention of people, the whole thing is just so abstract, I don't like this. It is so abstract, we don't, no name is mentioned that a certain comrade Commander so and so, sent me to do this and this.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair. I heard, Honourable Chair, I do have some questions, but I would like to be corrected on this, because I do not know the relevance thereof because the questions I have, are sort of proving that he was in fact an Askari as perceived by them, as perceived by them in this particular ...
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you My Lord. I don't know whether this is Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel, whether this is of course for argument, because Matshaya has put it clearly that if he had been in the MK, and then you leave ...
MR NOTUNUNU: Yes, I think that is the matter for argument. Well, in view of that Honourable Chair, my cross-examination would be along in fact, proving that what Matshaya had been saying was in fact correct, but if Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel feel that there is just no need for that, I also want the matter speedily finished as possible.
MR NOTUNUNU: And that does not appear, with respect to, from the evidence given by even though I would have loved to ask him questions on that, but like the question of him getting some refugee status and thereafter coming to South Africa. How can you then come to South Africa if then he had been given refugee status, all those things?
Thank you Honourable Chair, I have taken instructions and the applicants feel that there is really nothing which is in issue because for instance, the things they want to clarify, not the things which are really in issue, or which are really of that importance in this application, and as such they feel that it will be a waste of time of this Honourable Committee to subject Mr Dyasophu to cross-examination, but the one thing I would love to say is the question of reconciliation on the part of the applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: I am going to adjourn for lunch now. During that period, the two representatives can ponder as to whether they want to make submissions in argument or not. We will take those arguments, if any, after the break. We will adjourn.
MR NOTUNUNU: ... they were saying that the leadership was not doing what they were supposed to be doing, that was the holding of general elections etc, etc, so that at the end of the day, what was said by Mr Matshaya, that these people had said that they want to replace the ANC leadership, is in fact true.
There is a person now who has been involved in such a situation, who had wanted to replace the leadership of the ANC, then he goes to, he is not satisfied with things inside the country, he goes to Dar-es-Salaam as he in fact indicated, that is Mr Dyasophu. I am not really what Mr Dyasophu also go to Dar-es-Salaam, but the point I want to make Honourable Chair, is that they apparently had known, Dyasophu had apparently been granted some refugee status in Dar-es-Salaam, how then he happened to be in South Africa, Dyasophu, is difficult for anybody to understand.
Matshaya had indicated that look, who had in fact, I was interested to know who had in fact organised the SABC television press conference, other than that there was in fact involvement of the regime in the whole thing, because that was the propaganda, that the TV, the SABC TV was used by the regime as a propaganda mechanism, so that the really coming out of prison that same day holding a press conference with the SABC, which is seen by millions of people over the TV, is an indication that these people were in fact the enemy of the African National Congress, which was then still waging the war of liberation of this particular country, of South Africa.
They were then perceived, what is important here Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, I want to stress this is the test here should be subjective, it must not be objective, it must be subjective, whether these chaps were Askaris or not Askaris, it is immaterial. What is important here is how the applicants perceived these people to be and ...
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, isn't it also as what is his name now, Mr Dyasophu says, where the leadership pronounces you an Askari, very definite consequences occur and he says that the soldiers in those circumstances, he himself does not blame them for doing what they did, because it was part of their duty.
MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, it definitely does because the ANC leadership, higher up had referred to these chaps as government agents and he says they wanted to put the record straight, but they were perceived to be government agents, by the ANC, right up at the top.
Now, the applicants here Honourable Chair, were in the military side, they were in the military side, they were not taking, they were not in the leadership, high up, they took this decision on their own, like Mr Matshaya was the Commander of the MK in this region.
The Askaris or the people that had defected, it was common cause that they were in fact the enemy targets, I am saying all these things Honourable Chair, Honourable members of the Panel, to show that their act was in fact committed with a political objective.
They were pushing home, they were pushing home the views and the objective etc, of the African National Congress, an organisation of which they were its military wing, Umkonto We Sizwe, which was tasked with the duty of liberating the people of South Africa, militarily.
Coming now to the question of full disclosure. I submit Honourable Chair, with respect, that we had in fact made a full disclosure about what happened. I liked when Matshaya was giving evidence before this Honourable Chair and this Honourable members of the Panel, and questions were asked from him, he explained everything. He even explained how they had surveiled, the surveillance, the cover up car etc, the going there, the actual shooting. To us, Honourable Chair, with respect, that was in fact full disclosure. There is no way one can say that we had not in fact disclosed the whole information in so far as that what happened.
Mr Dyasophu, he had himself justified their actions, by saying look, you were right in doing that, but there was something he had mentioned like they were not doing this, they had been sent, or somebody else was behind this. Well, somebody was behind that, was the programme, the person who was behind that, was in fact the declared policy of the African National Congress.
Any person who defects from the military, you don't resign in the military, Matshaya had said that, you don't resign. If you are an MK member and then you leave, then you leave, you go to the very place which, you go to the very place of the enemy, that is South Africa.
Then how would people then perceive you to be, so all and all Honourable Chair and all the members of the Panel, we submit with respect that we have in fact made our case and we submit sir, with respect, that we fall in line with this Honourable Chair and Honourable Panel, granting the application as we have moved it.
We intend to adjourn now till tomorrow morning, nine o'clock sharp. If there are members of the Correctional Services Department present, I wish to point out that if tomorrow there is an applicant that needs to be brought to this hearing from the prisons, that person should be here at no later than half past eight.