CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Earlier this morning I introduced the Committee to you but for those person who weren't here and have arrived for this particular hearing, I'll just briefly introduce the Committee to you. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he's an attorney from Port Elizabeth and a Member of the Amnesty Committee, and on my left if Mr Sibanyoni, he's an attorney from Pretoria and also a Member of the Amnesty Committee as am I. I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a judge in the High Court in the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division there.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT
CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to commence with the hearing of the application of Messrs Kriel, Labuschagne, Botes and van der Watt. I would request the legal representatives please to just place themselves on record.
MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, the name is Loubscher. I am appearing for Messrs Labuschagne, Botes, van der Watt and Kriel, instructed by Mr Ernst J B Penzhorn Attorneys from Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher.
MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my name is Gordon Taka. I am representing the victims in count 2 on page 77, that is Ewin Tanyane and Porotlone, the victims in count 3, P Bayo, Solfafa, Anasoon, Khati, Shadrack Kulashe and Eliza Boneni and also victims on count 6 on page 77 of the bundle, M P Ramurakane, Margaret Malinga, Stephen Semelo and Andries Semelo. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir, I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loubscher?
MR LOUBSCHER: Chairperson, may I present to the Amnesty Committee the application of Mr Labuschagne. I would like to call him to give evidence.
JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Labuschagne, you have completed an affidavit, the original and copies are already in the possession of the Committee, the Evidence Leader as well as Mr Taka and you also have a copy of this affidavit before you.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: I do, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, could we mark this affidavit as Exhibit A?
MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Sir, thank you.
Mr Labuschagne, from paragraph 1 of the affidavit you introduce yourself, who you are and your what your profession is. Can you please read the affidavit into the record from paragraph 2?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson.
"In 1993 I was a member of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, the AWB and the Volksfront and I had the rank of Colonel in the first-named movement.
During or around October 1993 I received instructions from Andries Stefanus Kriel then a Brigadier in the AWB and the deputy leader of the Volksfront in the Northern Free State to organise a cell to form part of a co-ordinated campaign at the start of, the 8th of November 1983 on a continuous basis by means of explosives to damage logical connections as power installations and railway lines, a show of power of the white opposition received publicity ..."
...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Labuschagne, could you please read a bit slower.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Very well, I will start with the previous paragraph.
"Was to get publicity for the opposition of the whites in the direction that the previous government was moving in, as well as the previous government and the ANC's ignoring the Volkstaat idea in the constitutional negotiations.
Through these actions the previous government had to be forced to take the Afrikaner volk's ideals of a Volkstaat seriously and send a message to the ANC as to the seriousness of the Afrikaner's ideal of the Volkstaat. The explosions had the purpose of making the leaders of the Volksfront stronger in the further constitutional negotiation process to the acquisition of a Volkstaat for the Afrikaner volk.
Mr Kriel emphasised that there had to be a continuous onslaught to obtain these political objectives, and in accordance to the planning no life had to be lost. In accordance with my instructions I regularly reported back to Mr Kriel as to our progress in the execution of this planned campaign.
The senseless assaults of black individuals which was on the files of some of the members of the AWB was rejected by both myself ...(end of tape)
... lack of discipline in the AWB led to Mr Kriel's resignation in the AWB and I did not renew my membership in January 1994.
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, if I could just interrupt you there. Did you indeed resign from the AWB?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: And your statement that Mr Kriel resigned from the AWB in December 1993, is that the impression that you have?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: Please continue.
MR LABUSCHAGNE
"The 21 explosions which was part of the campaign can be divided into two categories, 14 attacks on power and railway installations which was property of the government, 7 actions in residential areas of ANC supporters and offices and facilities that were used by the ANC or their supporters.
The first category was aimed to force the then government to recognise the ideal of the Volkstaat. The rejection of the idea by the NP Government was a slap in the face. The second category was aimed at the ANC, to bring them under the impression of the seriousness of this ideal of the Volkstaat and to encourage the ANC to agree with the forming of such a Volkstaat. As it would seem, two thirds of these attacks were aimed at power and railway connections. If a Volkstaat Committee was put in by the then government, these actions would never have taken place.
The establishment of the ANC Government has to ascribed to this campaign. As explained above, I seek amnesty for the incidents for which I am charged: 22 charges of offences in accordance with Article 54.1 of Act 74 of 1982 and alternatively offences of Article 54(3) of Act 74 of 1982. Alternatively, damage of property, 17 charges of attempted murder, 1 charge of offence of Section 2 of Act 75 of 1969 and 2 charges of offence in accordance with Section 28(1) of Act 26 of 1956.
MR LOUBSCHER: You then proceed in paragraph 5.2 of your statement and you explain there precisely what the charges entail and this corresponds with what we see on page 63 to 84 of the bundle. Do you confirm paragraph 5.2 as being correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: Could you then continue with paragraph 5.3?
MR LABUSCHAGNE
"All these acts were committed directly as a result of the instruction which I received from Kriel in October 1993 and it made part of a campaign of actions according to the guidelines as mentioned above. And we continued with this campaign on a continual basis in order to obtain the ideal of a Volkstaat or obtain recognition therefore within the constitutional negotiation process."
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, can I just interrupt you once again? With regards to the identification of targets, can you just tell the Committee who was the person who was tasked with the identifying of targets?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was myself, I decided which targets to choose.
MR LOUBSCHER: And in the cell, the people who acted with you was Mr Botes and van der Watt?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: And except for the fact that Mr Botes was not always there, in certain exceptions he was not there?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: Please continue
"I know nothing of any people who were injured during the committing of these offences. The charge sheet's annexures contain several names of people who would have been the legitimate owners of the property which was deliberately damaged and people who we allegedly tried to kill.
I read in the paper that two people were injured because of the placing of explosive device in a street in Wesselbron's black township during the night, as described in charge number 3. It must be two of the people which was mentioned under column 4 on page 80 of the documents which serves in front of the Amnesty Committee.
Our actions were only aimed at that obtaining of political goals and that is the recognition of the Volkstaat's ideal and in strengthening the Volksfront's leader's hands during the negotiations, by making it quite clear that the whites would not accept it if they were not considered and treated reasonably within the negotiations. No other motive ever came into the picture. We also did not gain financially or in any other way from these acts."
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, can you tell the Committee, did you ever foresee the possibility that people might be injured or even killed because of the placing of explosive devices?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson, I did. And because I was aware of that fact ,before we executed any operation we always had a prayer and we asked that no-one should be killed or injured.
MR LOUBSCHER: Was it ever you or your groups, that's Botes and van der Watt's intention to kill anyone?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, right from the start it was not the case.
MR LOUBSCHER: And despite the fact - except for the fact that you prayed, did you take any other steps in order to minimise the chance that someone else might be killed or injured?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, there were several things we did.
The first of that would be to have the explosions take place late at night, usually after 10 o'clock and in certain cases even later. There was a great possibility that most of the people would have slept at that time. The time of detonation, if we wanted to kill someone, would have taken place during the daytime but we did it in the night or late at night.
The explosives were never sealed in a sealed container, and I'm not an explosive expert but most of the power left this thing from the top, which would have caused greater damage and also maybe possible loss of life if we did it otherwise.
Also, we placed the bombs in the townships in such places that if it was at night there could have been a possibility that someone might have been able to see them and maybe cause alarm, if they did in fact see it.
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, then to conclude, any of these acts for which you're asking amnesty, were they ever committed because of your personal malice or anger at any of the owners of the property that was damaged or directed at any of the people who might have been injured?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, not in one of the cases. Especially in the case of the black townships we did not know who were the people in whose vicinity we placed the bombs. It was not aimed at individuals at all.
MR LOUBSCHER: Then one further aspect. In the bundle which serves in front of the Committee - Mr Chairman, I refer to page 22 of the bundle of the Committee, it would seem that it's the second amnesty application which is an affidavit or sworn to about six months after your first application.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: Was it at any time your intention that this application should replace your first one?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No. If I'm correct, I made a call to General Viljoen at one point in that he tried to move the cutoff date of amnesty applications and then they invited us to come and thank them personally for that as a sign of appreciation. If I remember correctly he wanted to submit an overhead application to the Amnesty Committee. If I remember correctly he was willing to act on behalf of certain people. And there we signed documents at one point which was filled in by the Volksfront.
MR LOUBSCHER: They typed part of this document, was that all completed by the Volksfront officials?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: And it was handed over to you and all you did was sign it and fill in the written part?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, your original application appears on page 8, that's 8 to 21 in the bundle, do you confirm the correctness of the content thereof?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher. Mr Taka, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
Mr Labuschagne, your activities were apparently aimed at the Nationalist Party Government and supporters of the African National Congress, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR TAKA: Now let us take the incident at Wesselsbron, the township in Wesselsbron. The place where you placed the bomb, was it an area occupied by supporters of the African National Congress?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I cannot say because like I've said before we did not know who was living in the immediate vicinity of where we placed the bombs.
MR TAKA: In other words it didn't matter whether or not they belonged to the ANC?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, why we did that was because at that stage every black township would have had an ANC office, maybe I'm wrong but I believe it's true, and the explosions were directed at, it would have created a psychosis of fear in the people and these people probably would have went to the ANC offices the next day. I don't know if it actually happened, but it would have reached the leaders, and that was the sort of pressure we wanted to place on them with regard to the negotiations because I'm sure questions would have been asked by the people in the townships: "Who's doing this and why are they doing this"?
MR TAKA: You see I have a problem here because your main target was the ANC. Now in the black communities there are members of the IFP, there are members of AZAPO, there are members of other political parties. Now how do you determine who are members of the ANC, supporters of the ANC who are your main targets?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, yes, we couldn't do it in another way at that stage because the governing party of day - most of the explosions were directed at the government of the day and at that stage the ANC had nothing which we could directly attack. In other words they were not in control of the country and we had to do something to involve the ANC so that they could then talk to the National Party and in order for us to obtain the Volkstaat but it was not directly at the individuals in that society as such.
MR TAKA: Will I be correct therefore to say you assumed that every black person in the black townships is necessarily a member or supporter of the ANC?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, but we wanted propaganda at that stage in order to give power of negotiation to our leaders and that is why we did it as such.
MR TAKA: Did you in your operations at any stage place any explosive devices in the residential areas of the supporters of the National Party Government?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson, it was done. If you look at the ANC head offices in Bothaville, I cannot give you the exact distance but a few metres away from that office you would finds flats where white people resided and they were actually there when the bomb exploded. So the white areas were involved.
MR TAKA: But are there any instances that you can refer to where you specifically said: "We are now planting these explosives in a residential area of the supporters of the National Party Government, like you did in a residential area of the supporters of the ANC?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, therefore we could have used other targets like railway lines and power lines which one can say they belonged to the government of the day at that time which was the National Party.
MR TAKA: So in this particular instance your target was mainly black people because this did not happen in white areas?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, that was not the intention. The ANC office on Bothaville is in the middle of town. And if you look at the amnesty application you'd find that this ran into three phases. When we started there were explosions in the black townships, shortly thereafter and even in that time, it was shifted away from black areas to the railway lines specifically in order to minimise the risk of fatal accidents and also the injuries of people.
Whilst we were busy with the railway lines and at the end of that time we started moving away from the railway lines specifically because we were also scared of that specific danger, and we went to the power lines of Eskom and we started blowing them up.
MR SIBANYONI: But Mr Labuschagne, if I understand Mr Taka's question very well, he wants to know where there is any instance where you only targeted a residential area occupied by supporters of the National Party? Was there any such instance or not?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as far as the ANC offices are concerned in Bothaville, 10/20 metres from those offices there could have been National Party members who were unknown to me.
MR SIBANYONI: But there your main target was the ANC office in Bothaville. He wants to know strictly about residential areas where National Party supporters are staying.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: You never had such an instance?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Taka.
MR TAKA: You have clarified that. Why is it that you did not target National Party supporters, if I may just ask? Was there any specific reason why residential areas belonging to National Party supporters were excluded from your operations?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not necessary to do that because the whole country was full of railway lines and the Eskom power lines were sufficient, so we did not deem it necessary to act against people in residential areas if it was not necessary to create propaganda. And at that point the power lines and the railway lines were sufficient as far as that was concerned.
MR TAKA: You say that you had express instructions not to kill and not to injure people, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's completely correct, yes.
MR TAKA: Now coming back to Moyakeng(?) again. You placed a bomb in a street a few metres from residential houses, did you not foresee that people could be injured as a result of the explosion?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is so, people could have been injured or even killed but we had to do something to get the attention of the government of the day and the ANC, in order for them to negotiate about a Volkstaat for us but they were very arrogant about that and they wouldn't give us a chance to talk about this.
MR TAKA: In fact in Moyakeng two people were actually injured, one quite seriously, you are aware of that?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, in a newspaper cutting which I read it was written that two people were lightly injured. Unfortunately I don't have it with me but that's they way I understood it.
MR TAKA: For your information, if I may explain to you, one of the people who was injured is Mr Bayo, Maria Bayo ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please, Mr Taka.
MR TAKA: Pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please.
MR TAKA: That is Mrs Maria Bayo: B-A-Y-0.
Now she sustained a deep laceration on her head and as a result of that incident today even she suffers constant and continuous bouts of headaches so that she is virtually living on pain killers. Were you aware of this?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I wasn't aware of that.
MR TAKA: Do you agree with me that the fact that she was injured for example, is not in line with the instructions you received because your express instructions was to ensure that people are not killed, people are not maimed, people are not injured. So this particular incident was in gross violation of your express instructions, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as soon as one starts playing with explosives, there is no way one can say before the time that people are or are not going to be injured and therefore we did it with our belief and we prayed beforehand that it shouldn't happen. If you look at the total amount of charges which are laid up against us out of all the things that happened then it's only grace that not more people died or got injured.
MR TAKA: So you were aware all the time that if you play with explosives, there's no question of people not being injured or killed, notwithstanding the fact that your instruction was to ensure that this does not happen?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, we had to prove our point and this point was to get the government of the day and the ANC talking about a Volkstaat. And if we did it in any other way there wouldn't have been any results because they wouldn't have then deemed it necessary to listen to us and our leaders.
MR TAKA: You see, Mr Labuschagne, my worry is that you've just told this Committee that when you play with explosives there is no question of people not being injured or even killed. You even go to the extent of saying it is by the grace of God that no more people were injured or killed in the process. So this is now in contradiction with your express instructions from your commander. You were told to ensure that nobody is injured, nobody is killed but you play with a device which you know very well that is going to kill and it is going to injure. Your comment?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said before, there is no way, not even the person who gives the instruction can ensure that this might or might not happen.
If we wanted to commit murder, which was not our purpose right from the start, then there were a few things we could have done. We could have shot individuals or murdered them. We could have attacked taxi ranks during daytime, by means of bombs. We could have attacked black business centres during daytime or whilst there were people there. Also public meetings, for example sports stadiums, gatherings, meetings, and several other things. We could have attacked these things. We didn't do it because we are not murderers and we didn't want to be murderers either.
As I've said, the times we chose to do these things seemed to me from the time that we placed the bombs there within the black townships, that there would have been very little movement, it was late at night and people would probably have been sleeping. So in order to attain our goals we had no other choice but to do this, but the exception of injuries or the exclusion of death and injury, we could not remove that possibility.
MR TAKA: Still on that point. In Viljoenskroon, that is count number 6, where exactly did you place the explosive device?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, that specific evening I drove the vehicle so I was present in the vehicle but me myself, I did not place the bomb next to the house. It is one of the other applicants who can answer that.
CHAIRPERSON: But did you see where the bomb was placed or not?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I drove the vehicle and one of us always remained behind in the vehicle.
MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, my instructions are that that explosive device was placed right next to the shack, the corrugated iron shack of the victim, Mr Ramorakane, immediately next to that shack, almost against the shack. Your comment?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: I can speak of other incidents when I was present, we always placed these devices close to the houses.
MR TAKA: And I'm also informed according to my instructions, that when that device exploded it caused extensive damage but it also broke two legs of one of the victims who is here today in this hall. He sustained two fractures of both legs as a result of that explosion and that victim is Mr Semelo from Viljoenskroon: S-E-M-E-L-O.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I carry no knowledge of that. It was not mentioned in any of the papers I read at that time.
MR TAKA: But if my instructions are correct, do you agree with me that it was placed in such a manner that it could cause even death under the circumstances because it was so close to where the people were actually sleeping? It was not just a bomb in the street you know or a bomb on a "spoorlyn", it was specifically placed right next to the wall of the shack.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, any bomb, it doesn't matter where you place it, whether it be in a vehicle or next a place or next to a railway line, as I've explained before the possibility remains that you could never be sure that no-one would get injured. So whether you place it 10 metres away or whether you place it right next to the shack, the shrapnel and the damage is caused in a much wider radius, not necessarily where it's been placed.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think the point that Mr Taka is getting at is that the fact that it was placed right next to the wall of the shack probably changed the possibility of injury to the probability of injury, it made it far more likely. Like if I go and put a bomb in the middle of the audience here I'm definitely going to injure somebody. If I put outside the wall 20 metres from the building, there's a possibility, if I put it right next to the window there's a probability. I think what he's saying is the fact that it was placed right next to the wall, it wasn't just a question of bad luck that somebody got injured, any reasonable person would regard it as being a probable consequence of the placement. Is that what you're saying?
MR TAKA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You know in other words, why wasn't the bomb placed 30 metres from the wall, why next to it?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, like I've said before I was not present myself, I did not actually go and place the bomb myself. But what I also want to say is that the shrapnel, it doesn't matter the distance, it was probably the explosive power which damaged the house, but in terms of death it does not matter where you place the bomb or when it comes to injuring or killing someone.
MR TAKA: And I'm told that that very explosion also has caused almost permanent deafness to the wife of the victim, Ramorakane, next to whose shack this bomb was placed. Are you aware of that?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I'm not aware of it.
MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, you said that you are very sorry about these events that took place, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR TAKA: Did you ever make any attempts to meet some of the victims of your deeds, to say to them: "I am sorry"?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I think that is why we are here today because we could not approach these people ourselves and that is why we are here today, to tell these people we are sorry, it was not aimed at you personally, it was a propaganda campaign and we wanted to give power to our political negotiators. So we are sorry for the people, we are sorry for what happened but at that stage we had to do it to place pressure on the government of the day to recognise the ideal for a Volkstaat.
MR TAKA: But it's about five years now since some of those incidents took place and some of the victims don't stay very far from you you know, Wesselsbron, Bothaville, they are in the same vicinity. Are you still saying that it was not possible to meet even one of them just to say: "I'm sorry"?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said previously we are here today to tell these people that we are sorry. We shall meet them afterwards, I have no problem with that. We did not want anybody to be hurt or killed in this process. The fact that we did not make any contact with them is difficult, where does one go to find these people and we do not know what their reaction would be if we went straight to them. So I have no problem and I think that is why we are here today, to ask for forgiveness.
MR TAKA: You say you have no problem meeting these people?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.
MR TAKA: Okay. Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, just one or two.
Mr Labuschagne, as I get your explanation it looks like the ANC and the National Party Government were both your enemies during those days when you had to wage these attacks, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson, and that was because they negotiated in Kempton Park and they had no reaction to the so-called Afrikaners at that stage who wanted to negotiate for a Volkstaat, they did not make it any easier for them.
MR MAPOMA: Now Sir, what I want to get is your explanation on this. It looks like, Sir, during your attacks to these targets if there had to be a possibility of the death of someone, that had to be a black person and from the consequences that has been the case. Why was it like that?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not so. I speak under correction, maybe you would know better with all the documents in your possession, but there were more attacks on railway lines and according to my knowledge, many trains were derailed. And ten to one most of those train drivers and possibly other people who were on those trains could have been white people, specifically the drivers of these trains. So it was not just aimed against the blacks, and that is what I stated initially. We did not concern ourselves with explosions in those black townships for long because the possibility was greater when we continued with these attacks, that somebody would be injured or killed and that is why we moved away to the railway lines and later to the power lines.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Just two questions, Sir.
Mr Labuschagne, were you at any stage before today aware of the identity of any of the victims, any of the persons who were injured?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: And with regards lastly to the times when these devices were detonated and the choice of targets, do you accept full responsibility thereof?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
DR TSOTSI: No, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?
MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Labuschagne, did you belong to any specific - did your cell have a name or were you part of the "Ystergarde Orde van die Dood" or, anything like that? What division of the AWB did you come under?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I was just a member of the "Wen Kommando" of the AWB and not of the "Ystergarde" or the other groupings affiliated to the AWB and we also did not have a name for our cell.
CHAIRPERSON: The explosives that you used, were they homemade or were they of the military type?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, initially we received explosives from the mines and at some stage we received instructions to manufacture explosives from fertilizer which we used later.
CHAIRPERSON: You've mentioned that the objective of this campaign that you've described of explosions, was directed towards the, to have an influence on the negotiations that were taking place in the country at that time, is that correct?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the actual election play any role in the campaign, the April the 27th, was your campaign directed towards the actual polling day at all, to disrupt that, to cause chaos, to put off the elections?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, our purpose was that we had to negotiate with the National Party and the ANC before the elections in order to have a definite answer before the election because we were afraid that if it did not happen there were would be a great probability that when the ANC was in power they would tell us later that they are not interested at all to negotiate. And it did happen and Mr Mandela or, it did not happen and Mr Mandela appointed a Volkstaat Committee which is still being negotiated.
CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, were you a member of the AWB on a fulltime basis? Was that your employment as such?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Loubscher, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put?
MR LOUBSCHER: Just a single question, Mr Chairman.
Mr Labuschagne, this campaign which you launched, was this for the furtherance of the AWB or was it for the Volksfront?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Mr Chairperson, the Volksfront was established at some stage, I cannot recall the date, and there were a whole lot of Afrikaner organisation which sided with the Volksfront and this caused that it seemed as if the Volksfront would negotiate our political objective between the National Party and the ANC, so it was for the Volksfront at that stage which rose out as the stronger negotiating party.
CHAIRPERSON: The Volksfront was an umbrella body under which a number of other organisations belonged to really?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, did I understand you correctly that your links with the AWB were broken, you resigned from the AWB during the course of this campaign?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson. As it was mentioned at a stage in the documents, we did not want to reconcile ourselves with some of the methods that the AWB used to assault people for example, and to murder them and all the things that were associated with that. And it would seem from their actions as was evident later in Mafikeng, their inability to handle the situation properly.
MR LOUBSCHER: And after you broke all links with the AWB, on whose behalf did you continue with the campaign?
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was continued under the banners of the Volksfront ...(end of tape)
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER
MR TAKA: I have no further questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Labuschagne, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
MR LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR LOUBSCHER: This is the evidence I wish to adduce on behalf of Mr Labuschagne.
WITNESS EXCUSED
