CHAIRPERSON: ... voluntarily, you have not been subpoenaed by the Commission this time around and we do want to place on record that you would like to be as helpful as you can to the Commission in trying to unravel the events that happened in the informal settlements during 1986, so we do thank you very much for coming today.
MR KNIPE: Thank you Ma'am.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much Glenda, Chairperson and I greet you Mr Knipe. We have the documents, do you want to read your testimony into the record?
MR KNIPE: If the Commission likes, I would read it out.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarity that Mr Knipe was invited by the Commission to assist us in an aspect of the investigation. Investigators invited him to come, he has not been subpoenaed. I would like to state that for the record. Thank you Mr Knipe.
MR KNIPE: Before I read my statement, I would just like to bring your attention to paragraph 12 and respectfully ask that I do not read out paragraph 12. I believe that is hearsay evidence and that goes against the tenants of my belief as regards fair play.
I do not think that it is fair that I give evidence which was given to me by someone else, I had no personal knowledge of the incident described in paragraph 12. If that would meet with the Commission's approval.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: That is fine, but for the rest of the document, you would like it to stand as the records which you will read.
MR KNIPE: Yes, I believe the information contained in paragraph 12 might be of value to the Commission, but it is not that I have of personal knowledge.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, thank you, thank you so much.
MR KNIPE: If I may continue. Leonard Knipe, I am a Director in the South African Police Service, I am the Provincial Commander of the serious violent crimes component of the Western Cape.
I am based at the Provincial Head Office of the Detective service in Bellville. On Thursday, the 05-06-1997 I was approached by Miss Gould, an investigator of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and requested to give evidence at a special hearing of the Commission of the 10-06-1997.
I have been requested to give evidence concerning an arrest in 1986 on a charge of sedition against the community leader and parliamentary member of the National Party, Mr Johnson Ngxobongwana.
The quest to appear is rather short and due to the time constraints I had been unable to trace documents, case dockets which may still be available and if traced, would have placed me in a better position to give accurate evidence.
The evidence which I am able to give is from recall and after discussions with Captain Jooste of the Murder and Robbery Unit on Friday, the 06-06-1997. Captain Jooste then a Warrant Officer, served with me for a short period at Guguletu. I was assigned to Guguletu to investigate the murders, mostly necklace murders and other violence that occurred in Guguletu during 1986.
Of the violence that occurred was against the Security Forces and institutions of the State while the other violence was intersectorial violence against opposing groups, each with different political agendas.
I was transferred to Guguletu during June, that would have been towards the end of June, late June 1986 and took over command of a task team assigned to investigate the violence from Captain Loocke.
The task team was under resourced and under-staffed, nevertheless we endeavoured to solve the murders and other acts of violence which were reported. It appeared and later became clear that many of the murders that we were dealing with, resulted after the victims had been tried at people's courts which were being practised by both the opposing parties in interfactional violence.
As a strategy we established when these people's courts were held and would then raid these courts and effect arrests. Arrestees were charged with sedition and other crimes which we were able to substantiate.
It was a strategy which worked and helped stabilise the township. Two young men Vioani Geobase and Lukasine Veneni were brutally murdered during July in 1986.
The murders were investigated by the task team under cover of Guguletu CR/12/7/96. From the investigations conducted in this case, it was determined that prior to their deaths, they had been in the company of two young ladies.
These ladies were traced and with the assistance on the 21-07-1986 a shack in Crossroads was raided. This shack contained cells and a court room and it was obviously used as a people's court.
Exhibits such as court books, canes, tyres and the like was seized. According to information and evidence at our disposal, the local community leader of Crossroads the so-called Mayor of Crossroads Johnson Ngxobongwana was in charge of the people's court.
I remember leaving the court house and proceeded to Johnson's house. On arrival at his house, we came upon two men who were building a wall around Ngxobongwana's house. They were being guarded by Ngxobongwana's henchmen.
It transpired that the two had been sentenced by the people's court and that they had been sentenced to hard labour at Ngxobongwana's house. I remember entering Ngxobongwana's house and arresting him.
When arresting him, I found him in possession of a star, 9 mm pistol bearing military markings. Ngxobongwana was not in possession of a licence for the firearm, and he was unable to produce any authorization to possess the firearm.
A case of sedition and unlawful possession of a firearm was registered against Ngxobongwana. I must emphasise that I was in overall command of the task team, that I did not personally investigate dockets. Case dockets were assigned to members under my authority.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry, excuse me, just once again, it is a request that we made to most witnesses who come here to please slow down.
MR KNIPE: I apologise. The case docket of sedition was investigated under cover of Gululetu CR 191/7/86 and was intrusted to Detective Warrant Officer Jooste.
Johnson Ngxobongwana was not the only arrestee charged, others charged were Moster Nongiaza, William Nyiala, Tandile Mafyaya and Zimaza Mininzi.
I have managed in the archives at Guguletu to trace SAP register 256, this is a register of cases received by a detective unit and that entry 2786 reflects that the case docket was opened and that it was withdrawn on the 13-05-1087. The actual case docket has been destroyed.
No reference to a charge of possession of firearm is recorded, I have also discussed Ngxobongwana's arrest with Captain Jooste who concurs with the circumstances of the arrest which took place on the 21-07-1986.
He however, cannot recall the firearm incident. I however, have such a recall. Captain Jooste is also able to recall the arresting Ngxobongwana was released on R50-00 bail after we had opposed the granting of bail during the morning of his first court appearance.
I remember that following Ngxobongwana's arrest which was regarded as a major breakthrough, that his arrest was reported to the then Divisional Criminal Investigations Officer, Brigadier Van der Westhuizen whose retired from the police force as a Lieutenant General.
He was enthusiastic about the arrest. Either the morning of the arrest or the following day, I accompanied Warrant Officer Jooste to Wynberg Magistrate's court where bail was opposed.
I remember that Ngxobongwana was represented by an Attorney, Mr Brian Latslow. I clearly remember feeling rather elated with our success. This feeling of elation was however shortlived because during the early afternoon of the same day that Ngxobongwana appeared in court, I received a telephone call from an agitated Brigadier Van der Westhuizen.
I obviously no longer can remember the exact conversation between the Brigadier and myself, but the impression was that he had been severely rebuked because of our actions against Mr Ngxobongwana.
And that he had been instructed by either the State President or Minister to see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
I was informed that the authorities were fully conversant with Ngxobongwana's court, that it was not a people's court, but a tribal court. I was instructed to immediately see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
I phoned the State Prosecutor at Wynberg's Magistrate court and related the instructions which I had received from Brigadier Van der Westhuizen to him.
Later that same afternoon Ngxobongwana was brought before court and released on R50-00 bail. I was at Guguletu but for a few months between June and August 1986. During my time at Guguletu I tried to please evenhandedly against all wrongdoers, irrespective of where their political sympathies were.
It was however difficult to maintain this policy as it was clear that the Security Police and especially a Captain Flip du Toit, carried a torch for vigilante leaders in Crossroads.
It also appeared that I was not acceptable to my superiors as I was transferred to Sea Point on the 01-09-1986. Captain Du Toit was to my knowledge always aware of actions which we took. He was at Guguletu on a daily basis and we were required to furnished him with details of our investigations.
While I was at the unit, he never supplied us with any information which was of any value. During the period of time I served at Guguletu, I held the rank of Captain. I was transferred to Guguletu from the Murder and Robbery Unit following unhappiness already expressed to this Commission, resulting from the Guguletu-7 incident.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Mr Knipe. Yesterday we heard from a woman Ruth Gibisela who testified and gave testimony about the death of Vioani Geobase and Mr Veneni and in her testimony she mentioned that the death of these two men occurred on the 24th of May 1986.
Now I just want to establish whether this is an error on your part and whether you want us to correct this error, because you mention here that Mr Geobase and Veneni were brutally murdered, this is on page 5 paragraph 6, that they were murdered July 1986.
Now I am not sure whether this is an error on your part?
MR KNIPE: No, it is not necessarily an error, what could have occurred is that the case docket that I am referring to and that evidence in correct because I managed to trace that docket, Guguletu CR 12/7. It often occurred that case dockets were only opened several days after the murders had occurred.
So the information of July I am obtaining from the case reference.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I would just like to ask a little bit about Brigadier Van der Westhuizen, what was his exact role in relation to yourself?
MR KNIPE: He was my superior Commanding Officer.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So as an investigator, you reported to him?
MR KNIPE: Yes.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now, in this case, the arrest of Ngxobongwana, you mentioned on paragraph 9 that it was regarded as a major breakthrough. In what way was it a breakthrough for you?
MR KNIPE: Well, I believed that we could have proved the murder of the two young men already referred to. I believe it also showed willingness of the police to have an evenhanded attitude towards all wrongdoers.
People were killing each other from both sides. It was not only fair only to act against people's courts that were being run from people in opposition to certain political parties.
I regarded it as a breakthrough to show the community that we were prepared to investigate all cases properly.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And to show that in fact police were involved in encouraging the people's court which was to be called a tribal court and not a people's court.
MS KNIPE: Well, when we made the arrests, I was unaware that of my colleagues regarded this as a tribal court. This only transpired after the arrests, when we were rather condemned for doing this.
To this day I don't know what the difference is between the one court and the other.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I would just like us to talk a little bit about the intervention from some superior people, superior members of the police or in fact in your statement you mention ministers as well, what was the extent of this intervention? You mentioned that Brigadier Van der Westhuizen was quite shaky when he called you and demanded that Ngxobongwana be granted bail.
Can you tell us a little bit more about this intervention from top members of government?
MR KNIPE: I don't think I can relate further than I have in paragraph 9 of the statement. I received the phone call, the Brigadier was clearly concerned, agitated and he mentioned that he had been in contact with a person in a very senior position.
I cannot remember which of the two it was, but it was clearly intimated to me that at very senior level it was felt that we had acted incorrectly and that this man should be released on bail.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just want to read just a little bit of what you say in your statement that the Brigadier was severely rebuked because of our actions taken against Ngxobongwana and that he had been instructed, the Brigadier had been instructed by either the State President or Minister to see to it that Ngxobongwana was released on bail.
Now this is what you say in your statement.
MR KNIPE: That is what I am saying to you now, yes.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, now it is important for us to understand, in your regular investigation of these crimes, how often did this type of intervention lead to people being released from jail or lead to interfere with the justice process?
How often did this kind of thing happen?
MR KNIPE: This is the first and only time that the incident occurred with me - in 30 years in the Police Force.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So we may use this on the record as an indication that there was interference as you say from either the State President or Minister that resulted in direct consequences in regard to the justice process?
This is one instance?
MR KNIPE: I was instructed that a man that I had opposed bail to earlier in the morning, was to be released on R50-00 bail.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In other words Ngxobongwana was given status not only by what we might term foot soldiers, but by men at the top as well?
MR KNIPE: Obviously.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Flip du Toit, Captain Flip du Toit, you mention in paragraph 11 that Flip du Toit carried a torch for the vigilante leaders in Crossroads.
And you further mentioned that you understood that he was aware of the people's courts and the kinds of things that they did in people's courts?
MR KNIPE: No, I don't think I am saying that. What I am saying is that in discussions with Captain Du Toit it was clear that he was sympathetic towards elements within Crossroads. That he carried a torch for them, that they should be treated differently to the other perpetrators of violence.
He was unable ever to give us any information of any value. We however, conveyed everything that we had, to him.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What I will take just to take my own questioning on your testimony, what I am taking from this statement is that according to yourself, the Minister or State President, and people like Captain Du Toit interfered not only with your investigation, but also with the judicial process, this is what your statement suggests?
MR KNIPE: There was interference. I think it was a mistake that bail was granted to the accused, it was our evidence that he should not be granted bail.
The Senior Public Prosecutor and everyone is in agreement with our evidence that was then overturned. It did not necessarily affect the ultimate investigation of the case, however, it was a limited interference at that point.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now, you are losing me now. I am not sure what you mean. I mean if the Minister or State President intervenes and says release this man on bail, implicitly he is on our side, I mean suggesting that he is on their side, how ...
MR KNIPE: Yes, but I don't know if one could say that that is necessarily interfering with the investigation. Investigations could still have carried on.
I think it might be too strong, you might be putting it a little bit too strong.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you see the thing is investigations lead to arrests and to trial and to justice, now if there is interference from the top of that process, of the end process which is justice, surely there is interference with the investigation, isn't there?
MR KNIPE: But the interference was limited, it did not prevent - there was no prevention, I was not told to stop the investigation.
My instruction was merely to release the man on bail and I was brought under the clear impression that, look, you know, you are making a bit of an ass of yourself. This is not a people's court, this is a tribal court.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So tell us how much further did you go with the investigation?
MR KNIPE: Well, unfortunately I was transferred shortly afterwards.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I will pass you on to the Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions, Dumisa? Mr Ntsebeza?
MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Director Knipe. I must precede my questions by saying that I appreciate the courage with which you obviously had to write your statement and much also more, that you were prepared to come and testify in this proceedings in the manner in which you have done.
I would like to look at the period that you were assigned to be at Guguletu. Now, you said you came here in June 1986? What time did you come to Guguletu?
MR KNIPE: It was towards the end of June, it was following the large scale attack upon the KTC squatter camp, it was probably a week to ten days after that attack had occurred. I would imagine from about the 25th to the end of the month.
MR NTSEBEZA: And in terms of your statement you had been assigned to investigate murders and other violence that occurred in Guguletu during 1986?
MR KNIPE: Correct.
MR NTSEBEZA: In terms of testimony that we have heard here the violence over the three days in early June to which you have referred just now, fell within the ambit of your investigations?
MR KNIPE: Quite correct.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now, maybe before we look at that period, because I would want to ask questions surrounding the period of that particular form of violence, is it so that during 1986 the state of unrest in the country was such that there were what we now know as Joint Security Management Systems that were put into place as part of the National Security Management System?
MR KNIPE: I know that now, I was unaware of that then.
MR NTSEBEZA: Is your evidence that you were not aware that for instance at Mannenberg, there was a Joint Operation Centre?
MR KNIPE: There was a Joint Operation Centre but I was not aware and privy to how far these things went.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now, at Guguletu in what way did you relate to the Joint Operation Centre at Mannenberg?
MR KNIPE: We would often solicit their help when we went out to make arrests, that they would provide a cordoned protection for the Detectives that would make arrests.
Many of the people's courts that we raided were very large gatherings and we made use of extra manpower. There was also a lot of interaction between the investigators and the people at Mannenberg, re obtaining statements etc, etc.
MR NTSEBEZA: Were there any meetings that you attended at which there were other units of the Security Forces at Mannenberg?
MR KNIPE: Not that I can recall.
MR NTSEBEZA: Were you not aware at the time that there was a Group 40 from the SADF, and the South African Railway Police under Major Ludolf and the unrest unit under Major Odendaal which were part and parcel of the Joint Operational Centre at Mannenberg?
MR KNIPE: That is correct. I was aware that there was a combined armed force from different security establishments operating in Guguletu and as I've tried to explain, we obtained as far as possible statements pertaining to various incidents which we investigated, from various members of these different elements.
MR NTSEBEZA: And you became aware that part and parcel of the reason behind this Joint Operational Structures was because there was a view that the unrest situation in the country had reached a stage where ordinary methods of dealing with crime, were not adequate.
MR KNIPE: I think the legislation also clearly put it that way.
MR NTSEBEZA: Indeed, the state of emergency that had enveloped the country which became complete in June 1986, was speaking to that state of unrest.
MR KNIPE: Correct.
MR NTSEBEZA: And did you know at the time that the JMC structures in the Western Province were in fact part and parcel of a whole network of such JMC structures through out the country?
MR KNIPE: I honestly don't think I was fully aware of that, no. As I say my ambit was to, I am an investigator.
I was not part and parcel of that strategy.
MR NTSEBEZA: But ...
MR KNIPE: But that there was an Operational Headquarters at Mannenberg, I was fully conversant with that.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes. Were you aware that there was a Joint Security Management System which was headed by Minister Adriaan Vlok?
MR KNIPE: Again I am not sure if I was aware of it then, or I subsequently became aware of it. I am aware of such a structure, but to be perfectly honest with you to say I was aware of it then, or subsequently I can't say. I cannot recall.
MR NTSEBEZA: Let me put it differently. If it was the evidence that in fact as part of this total strategy to deal with the unrest situation in the 1980's and particularly 1986, a Joint Security Management System was established under the headship of Minister Vlok, you would be able to say now I can say that there was in fact a pattern, would you agree?
MR KNIPE: Definitely.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now, the evidence that you have seen and particularly the evidence of Steve Kahanovitz.
MR KNIPE: I couldn't hear.
MR NTSEBEZA: Steve Kahanovitz, it seems to suggest that ... (tape ends) ... did you get that impression about his evidence? I am not asking what your own position was at that time?
MR KNIPE: I unfortunately did not hear his entire evidence, I came in I am not quite sure at what point of his evidence, but I heard of that and there are things that occurred that were difficult to explain.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, in fact the evidence of the Doctor, the last Doctor who was here, seemed to suggest that the police actively participated both at protecting the "witdoeke" and at actually attacking those who were the objects of the attack of the "witdoeke", you heard that part of the evidence?
MR KNIPE: I heard that.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now, were you aware that the "witdoeke" were referred to as the fathers?
MR KNIPE: I can't remember that terminology, no.
MR NTSEBEZA: Is your evidence that you hear of that reference of the "witdoeke" ...
MR KNIPE: I can't remember hearing it before, I can't. So I think it is the first time that I am hearing it now from you.
MR NTSEBEZA: Is that so? Now, do you know in what way now or at the time, there was or there wasn't a relationship between the Joint Security Management System and the State Security Council?
MR KNIPE: I am unaware of the mechanics of that.
MR NTSEBEZA: Did you hear anything about a possible link between those structures? For instance did you know that there would be a link at some level between the Joint Operation Centre at Mannenberg and the State Security Council?
MR KNIPE: Again sir, it is very difficult because I cannot - I don't know how much of the knowledge that I have now, I have acquired subsequent to 1986. So it is very difficult answering the question as at 1986.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.
MR KNIPE: But obviously there must have been a linkage, but whether I knew that in 1986 or whether I know that subsequently, because a lot of our history is only coming to the fore now.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes. No, no, I appreciate that.
MR KNIPE: And I can't answer you honestly there, I am aware of it, but I can't say when I would be aware of it.
MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, I appreciate that. You see I am trying to find as a person who has had the courage to come and give the testimony that you have given, I would like you to try and assist the Commission in trying to explain those inexplicable things which you say now with the benefit of hindsight, I realise that there were things that we could not explain.
MR KNIPE: With the greatest of respect, I think it is pretty obvious.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, I would like to be very sure that it is pretty obvious and I would like to carry you along with me as an observation and as a person who was observing those times. Now if there was evidence and I must say that we are looking at whether in fact this evidence can be authenticated, if there was evidence that in those times already submissions were made to the State Security Council from these structures in the provinces, that as part of the policy of dealing with the unrest in the Western Cape for instance, "witdoeke" were referred to as the fathers, had to be assisted by the State, now I want to relate this to the intervention which you have referred to.
It is a very small intervention, you were asked why did you arrest these people, why are you keeping Ngxobongwana there? Now would it surprise you ...
MR KNIPE: It was not that small to me, because I honestly thought that it was a good arrest, that we would have been able to solve crimes through the arrest, and that is my mandate.
I was there to solve crime. People had been murdered and I wanted to solve that. And I did not like the interference that prevented us doing our job.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now if there was evidence, now that you also recall this particular incident, if there was evidence that suggested that in fact at one of the State Security Council meetings a recommendation was made by way of tabling a report from some of the structures, that served at the State Security Council, that as part and parcel of dealing with the unrest situation in the Western Cape, the fathers must be assisted against the comrades. Now, would that surprise you now with the benefit of hindsight when you look back on those things?
MR KNIPE: No, I think if such a report exists, then obviously I tramped on toes.
MR NTSEBEZA: And would that to you explain the anger and the agitation of Brigadier Van der Westhuizen when he was indicated by either the Minister of the State President that the person who had been arrested, ought to be freed?
MR KNIPE: Possibly.
MR NTSEBEZA: You see, whichever way you look at it, it does suggest it that what happened even if we only observed the three days that there has been testimony about, three days which coincide very uncanningly even to the day and the day of the week with the days on which we are having these enquiries, that there was a systematic pattern that cannot be explained as having been a chance phenomena, would you agree with that?
MR KNIPE: There are many things that at this point in time, as an investigator, I would not be able to explain.
MR NTSEBEZA: Do these events, when you look back on things, do these events make you proud to have been a policeman in those times?
MR KNIPE: Oh, that is a rough question. I am very proud to be a policeman. I am very proud to be a Detective, yes. I think I have always given my best as a Detective, I have honestly policed without bias, without favour.
I have put criminals behind bars, not sections of society. I have no regrets in being a policeman, none whatsoever.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now let's test that.
MR KNIPE: But I do not always think that the Police Force's record is necessarily a proud record.
MR NTSEBEZA: Now let's test that - and I believe you. Now when you came to Guguletu that time, we now have a catalogue of what clearly was criminal activity on the days, 9, 10 and 11 of June.
Did you investigate those incidents?
MR KNIPE: No, those incidents were being investigated. If my memory serves me correctly by Captain Loocke. As I tried to explain here, I was not assigned a docket per say, I was in overall charge and I think if the Commission has had privy to of the documents, that came out, I think the Commission would also be honest with itself if it looks at the reams and reams of queries that I gave, I tried to lift the expertise of investigation which at the time was very poor.
MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, no in fact the way in which you dealt with Ngxobongwana and his people and stuff like that, suggests to me that you approached the whole question of investigation in a fairly robust fashion.
But what I would like to know as the overall Commander of the Murder and Robbery Unit in Guguletu, even if you were not in charge of the dockets, you must have heard certainly in the newspapers and generally from the comments that will be made at the time, that there was a lot of disquietude about the manner in which the "witdoeke" had conducted themselves.
MR KNIPE: Yes.
MR NTSEBEZA: In fact I have a report from the Cape Times at the time which led with an article that puts the whole period in perspective.
As I say almost to the day, not almost, virtually to the, not virtually, to the day this Cape Times leader was on Wednesday, June the 11th, 1986. It says "National Scandal". It is a long report, but it says clearly something that any police person, any police person let alone one who was in charge of an area in which this specific instances had taken place, would have been quite concerned about.
For instance it says the discrepancies between official and independent accounts of what has been happening, are so striking that the need for clarity can no longer be denied. If President Botha has any respect for the intelligence of the public he claims to serve, he will immediately appoint a commission.
Wholly irreconcilable versions which were barred from the public are specific allegations that the police had been siding with the "witdoek" vigilantes against the comrades and Crossroads refugees in the (indistinct)
This from on the spot clergymen and others who have been named in newspaper reports and affidavits. And a general denial of these allegations maintaining that the police have been impartially holding the line between the warring groups, this from the police.
It goes on to say that in this week's disgraceful events those are the words of that paper, and not mine, in this week's disgraceful events for example the following statements have been made by reliable witnesses.
The Reverend John Freeth, this is what he is reported to be saying. We saw police covering the "witdoeke" and firing on the defending shacks. The Reverend John Freeth, it was very clear that the "witdoeke" were operating under police protection.
The Reverend David Cook right in front of us there were three caspers. No attempt was made to stop the looting, the burning and the fighting. I saw a policeman shooting with a rifle into KTC defenders to prevent them from defending their property.
Father Desmond Currin, St Gabriels, this very church, Guguletu and Mrs Emma Huysmans, editor of Crisis News said that police vans and a casper escorted the vigilantes on their way to attack the Zwolani Centre every step of the way. The Centre had been housing Crossroads refugees and was destroyed by fire and attack.
The police will reply, they issued blanket denials. Either these respected eye-witnesses are deluded or shameless liars. Or else, police spokesman do not have all the facts to their disposal. It is inconceivable that the police would deliberately tell lies to the public.
Now, this was a leader page of the Cape Times on Wednesday, the 11th of June 1986. It is a leader page that you possibly did or did not read.
MR KNIPE: I cannot recall.
MR NTSEBEZA: Come again?
MR KNIPE: I cannot recall.
MR NTSEBEZA: You cannot recall? But Director Knipe, all I am trying to say to you is that this irreconcilability between public versions of what happened, and what the official response in the form of police denials was, was public knowledge.
And you are in the eye of the storm, you are entrusted with investigating. On your own admission all forms of violence, including that violence. Now I don't want to be (indistinct) with you Director Knipe, you have been extremely helpful to the Commission, what I would like to understand from your testimony, is whether you are saying in so many words, that because you were not handling the specific dockets you were not able to give instructions specifically for this particular allegations to be investigated fully?
MR KNIPE: No, and again as I said that is a disadvantage that I am at, having such short notice to appear here. I have drawn a few dockets that I have managed to draw. And I would like the Commission to possibly read the investigation diaries and if you read those investigation diaries, I think you will see that exactly the points that you are raising, I rose to be investigated.
MR NTSEBEZA: Do I understand your evidence to be saying that you were very, very concerned about the fact that there was this irreconcilability between public versions of what had happened and police denials?
MR KNIPE: No, my concern was to arrive at the truth. And the truth can only be arrived at to broaden the scope of the investigation and all people that are able to give evidence, make statements.
MR NTSEBEZA: As far as you, did anybody get arrested in connection with all these incidents?
MR KNIPE: In of the cases, there were arrests, yes. But not in connection with the KTC incident, no. When I left that was still in the process of investigation.
MR NTSEBEZA: Does it surprise you or would it surprise you of all these incidents to which there has been so much public testimony about obvious wrong doing, that there isn't a single case that you can recall of in which people were arrested?
MR KNIPE: Many of the cases that were investigated when there was this vast discrepancy between versions, we did not make arrests because it was very difficult - who do you believe and I think many of those investigations, we as detectives, hoped would end up as open court inquests where the truth could be determined.
MR NTSEBEZA: Of course you heard that the inquest that were held were informal inquests, so that was not helpful, was it?
MR KNIPE: Of course not. I cannot understand the complexities of the situation that an open court inquest was not held.
MR NTSEBEZA: Again I relate this to what was suggested by your interference. Does it not suggest to you that there was clearly an official sanction of the actions of the "witdoeke"? I am talking about you looking backwards, because that is what the purpose of the Committee, you are not on trial, nobody is on trial, but we would like to be able to find that there are certain conclusions that you can draw and we would like to get impressions from the people who were in the thick of things?
MR KNIPE: Again, I would like to answer you question actually as two answers.
My perspective is that there was interference and that there was some sort of scull (indistinct) taking place. However, I do not have the evidence to substantiate that.
And I work with evidence, I work with facts. I do not believe in the colour grey. I like things to be either black or white, but as a South African citizen as hopefully a thinking person, there are questions that I cannot answer and that makes that I draw certain perceptions, not dissimilar possibly to what you are putting to me.
MR NTSEBEZA: Who was responsible for your transfer? Was it Brigadier Van der Westhuizen?
MR KNIPE: Brigadier Van der Westhuizen.
MR NTSEBEZA: Did it strike you as strange or did you accept it as ...
MR KNIPE: No, I accepted the transfer, I accepted the transfer.
MR NTSEBEZA: No more questions Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chair. I am sorry that I have to take you back to the Van der Westhuizen story and your relationship with him.
Actually I have more questions than I have time to ask, but what puzzles me is the statement you made just now that you just accepted the transfer and I am wondering as the investigator of this case, after the intervention by the officials in Parliament through Van der Westhuizen, did you ever discuss this issue with members of your team, with your colleagues?
MR KNIPE: I am sure Jooste was aware of it because Jooste carried the docket, he was the docket carrier of the charge against Johnson. So it was discussed with him and I have made mention of this incident to various people over the years.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, making mention of it and doing something about it, I think are two different things. And I am wondering as a person who is projected himself as an evenhanded person who has no racism in him, I think you mentioned this in your last testimony of the Guguletu-7, you treat people equally, you investigate equally, these were people in the township.
People were dying, you have just made a breakthrough, as you yourself explained, breakthrough, you have finally been led to Ngxobongwana and to his people's courts and you have now made a link between the deaths of Vioani Geobase and Mr Veneni.
Now as someone who is truly committed to this policing idea, and policing evenhandedly, what exactly did you do to pursue the case, to find who the killers of these men were? What did you do?
MR KNIPE: First of all, the granting of bail did not stop the investigation. The investigation continued.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What were your findings?
MR KNIPE: Well, I did not complete it. The dockets are still on hand. The investigation, I just looked at it cursory yesterday, is not of a good standard.
I believe, I cannot believe why a charge of murder could not have been brought out on the evidence we had, but that must be asked of an official other than I.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you see as the person who was investigating it, I just need to establish how seriously you took the intervention by these people from higher up there. I just want to understand what your thinking was about this and how seriously you took it but now ...
MR KNIPE: I obviously took it seriously in that it was a rebuff in no uncertain manner was it a rebuff. It would have, I believed to help stabilise the situation, have been far better had the arrestees been kept in custody, but by granting bail it did not stop the investigation, that is the point that I am trying to make.
Many people are granted bail, it does not stop us with our investigation. To any policeman one of the worst things that can happen, we might be wrong, but Detectives have a problem in the accused being let out on bail.
We traditionally fight bail, we obviously are often ad odds with a more liberal approach.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: This was a unique case in the sense that immediately after the bail was granted, charges were dropped, weren't they?
MR KNIPE: No, no, no. No, the charges were only withdrawn a year later. I think I've given you the date, the charges were withdrawn on the 13-05-1987.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And by that time you were already in Sea Point?
MR KNIPE: I was then in Durban. When the charges were withdrawn, it was almost a year - eleven months.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were you surprised?
MR KNIPE: I only became aware that the charges were withdrawn, yesterday I think. Have you any idea Ma'am of the amount of violence that we have dealt with?
That one cannot always remain committed to one ambit of investigation, subsequent to this in the last 11 years, I have seen so much death, that I cannot even recall all the death that I've seen.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I understand Mr Knipe, but the peculiarity of this case is that there was an intervention by Presidents, by the President or a Minister and I imagine in my mind that this would have stuck out in your mind as a unique case.
I was just trying to follow up how your reaction to this intervention was and how you handled it with your committee and particularly within yourself? With your members, with your colleagues and with yourself?
How you perceived the idea of a President or Minister intervening in such a case?
MR KNIPE: I've explained to you that the intervention related to the granting of bail and I was brought - it was made known to me that there was knowledge of this court house but look Leonard Knipe, you are barking up the wrong tree, this is not a people's court, this is a tribal court.
We investigated - we continued with our investigations, we did not stop with our investigations. I still can remember that most, we went to some considerable time to have the court books translated because the proceedings of the court were in Xhoza, so there was a lot of investigation that followed and the investigation was still continuing when I left.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you. I am told that there are time constraints, but one last question. Captain Du Toit, what exactly were his activities in the area?
MR KNIPE: I don't know. It is very difficult. I can't understand what his activities were in the area. He was of no assistance to us at all.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: He did not feed you with information and therefor did not help you with your cases you were investigating and of course as you have stated, he seemed to support the "witdoeke"?
MR KNIPE: Well, he was always - his conversations with us were always that these people were orderly law abiding citizens.
As I say he made no contribution to any of our investigations at all.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much. Just a comment, while this was a breakthrough for you, the finding of the Ngxobongwana people's court, I think in a way what you've told us is also a big breakthrough because you've linked the relationship between the police and the "witdoeke" operation very positively and we appreciate that, thank you.
MR KNIPE: Ma'am, Detectives simply tell the truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
MR KNIPE: I am sorry if it injects laughter, but it is the truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Detective Knipe, we just have one more question from Mary Burton.
MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson. Director Knipe at point 6 in your statement you refer to the shack which contained the cells and the court room and you were one of the people who actually visited that shack as part of the investigations.
MR KNIPE: I am sorry Ma'am I couldn't hear you over the din.
MS BURTON: The shack which contained the court room and the cells, you were one of the people who visited that, I mean you were personally at that place.
MR KNIPE: Yes, one of the people arrested with Mr Ngxobongwana, we still found there, he was a sort of policeman in charge of the shack. That day it had two cells if I remember correctly, they were pretty secure.
In fact they were probable more secure cells than is available at the little satellite police station in Crossroads at the moment and then there was this sort of court room. You came into the court room first, went through the court room into the cells.
MS BURTON: We've had a number of deponents who have spoken to us about having been taken to a court room or to cells, we want to make sure we are talking about the same building, we don't know whether there were several buildings like that.
Could you help us to pinpoint it at all?
MR KNIPE: As I understand it, and subsequently after the arrest of Johnson when a bit of controversy arose, it transpired that many of the serving policemen at Guguletu were aware of this structure.
I had not, you know it was the first time that I went there and these ladies took us there. That is why it was still in the early morning hours that they went to go and point it out to us.
But this was what was commonly referred to as the sort of Johnson's police station.
MS BURTON: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza?
MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Madam Chair. Director Knipe, it only remains for me to say we are very thankful for you having volunteered to come.
The Commission appreciates that gesture from you. It seems to confirm the attitude you displayed when we met with the Guguletu-7 that we shouldn't have subpoenaed you, you would have come on your own.
MR KNIPE: You made a mistake sir.
MR NTSEBEZA: We are pleased that you have been able to do so. There are very many disturbing questions for the Commission and not all of them can be replied to or answered by you.
And I think that came very clearly from your testimony. But the testimony that you have given has been quite helpful. And I think I echo the views of this panel when I say you have assisted us and I hope we can call upon your help in the future whenever we want to unravel some of the mysteries of our troubled past.
As I indicate, you are not on trial, nobody is on trial here. The duty of the Commission is to expose the truth, but not for its own sake, only to the extent that it might facilitate the process of reconciliation and to that end we hope that your contribution today will assist the process.
MR KNIPE: Thank you. May I be excused please?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may be excused yes.
MR KNIPE: Thank you.
