ON RESUMPTION
TAPE STARTS IN MIDDLE OF TESTIMONY
MS SOKUPA: ... his responses was that he wasn't. I was a grandson who was one year old. I prepared and I knew that I was going to go on my own that day. I went to New Cross and we all went to the funeral as comrades because I was a member of the United Democratic Front at the time. We went to Andile's house at NY178. And we went up NY6, and then we went page NY108. When we were near the gate, when we were near the second gate, we noticed the coffin, marshals. This car approached us and it couldn't go past us. It then took a short cut and went into the second gate in order to get to NY5. We saw the car entering and the marshals pointed out where the person would be buried.
It was hardly a few minutes later then all the women comrades came out. We didn't know what was happening, because we were informed to disperse. We didn't even bother to ask questions when the women were told to get out. When we got out running, we noticed a car. At the house there was keeping space for funerals.
So we went out, I was running, I was with my cousin because we were together at the time. We didn't go across the gate, we went, ran along the fence and we went out the other gate. We went past the Roman Catholic and the fence and we went to, down NY5 to NY78, and we saw a bakkie with gas tanks. We stopped this bakkie and asked for a lift from the driver - I can't remember his name. He stopped for us and gave us a lift. Then he drove down to Terminus Road and stopped next to my house. When we alighted we went straight to my house. I found my husband outside with my grand-daughter who was still beginning to walk at the time. My husband asked why are you coming back so soon. When I was trying to answer him the small boy appeared, running. That boy was Zokele Zokolo, and said to my husband look at the funeral site; do you see that smoke? I said yes. And that is Siqaza that is burning in that car, he was burnt in the boot. My husband explained, he said maybe if I were there that would not have happened. He said who did that. I said no, I didn't know, because I also ran away. He went inside the house and I wondered to myself, this must have been the car we saw when we left, because it did have a black and white Valiant. Then we discussed this and then I point out, I discovered there was some tension in the air and there was some rumour in the evening that there was going to be some patrol, looking for the comrades who killed Xhasa there at sunset that day. But there was tension. If you go to this comrade, there is tension, you don't find, just tension in the air until sunset.
1985 was going to be black Christmas. On Christmas Day we were going to go to the funeral to lay the stones next to our fallen comrades at sunset. There was some meat in my house so I decided to cook the meat that evening so that I should not cook during the Christmas Day, which was going to be black Christmas. Then I prepared some meal and then I discovered that there were some people patrolling. That whilst we were talking about this patrol, we saw this man passing our house. Before they came. I said to my husband I noticed that other comrades have fled, we should also flee because I don't know what is going to happen. So it looks to me that we should also flee. My husband said did you burn someone? I said no, but what I can see comrades are running away, it looks like everyone is fleeing. My husband said no, he was not going, because he was never at a funeral. So I stayed.
There was a daughter of mine by the name of Tuguwa, who was also there. She came back from a friend of ours. She told us about this patrol. She suggested that we take the small kids to a friend, whose name I can't remember, because this is 12 years ago. I said to her just take the kids, took the first one, took the second one. When she came to the third one, my husband asked where are you taking these kids. She just said I am taking them to another site. My husband said how do you know if there is going to be no patrol at that site. My daughter said no, I don't know, but I just want to get them out of here. My husband said you take my - my husband said bring those two, this one is not going. So my daughter went and brought back those two kids, and then we stayed in the house and she went out.
After a while we couldn't sleep, but we could feel that the air was very tense. There was this patrol but they had not yet come to our site. Then there was a comrade of ours, who was a neighbour, his name was Mozodo, and she came to tell us that she saw the patrollers. I said well, I have nowhere to go, because there is nothing we did and we don't even know the perpetrators of that act. So we stayed and she also stayed.
After a while the kids being with us, a neighbour of ours came in. His house could be just a distance which is from here to the door. The man there was a councillor who was not - we were not part of the election of councillors and this councillors were not treating us well. They wouldn't give us sites for building, they made us pay if we were to get sites, and this man came. He said neighbour, there is a patrol going on. My husband said no, I am not going out for patrolling. This man said no, I think you must go. My husband said no, I am not going.
Then thereafter I heard a knock on the window. My kids were here and my daughter was with her friend and then there was this knock at the door. I said who are you? They said no, it is me, Ntobeko. She said no, I think you should go because Sybil Zwanga's burning, Sybil Zwanga was also a comrade, and the creche was also on fire, I am sure they are coming this side. And my husband said no, I didn't go to a funeral, I have done nothing and said if you want to go you can go. But I pleaded with him that we should go, because other people had gone and the fire is already on. He said no, I am going nowhere.
Whilst we were waiting the neighbour came back again. She said my neighbours, please, I think just you just take, even just the kids to my place, because her house was a few metres away. His wife was not there, had gone down for the holidays. He said just please bring the kids to my place so that they could spend the night there. My husband said it is okay and the neighbour went out. I said to my husband let's take these kids and indeed, maybe this man knows something, because he is part of the patrolling group. So I took the first one to this house. I took the second one and the third one had gone with my daughter, because she was the youngest. Just after I dropped them, when I came back to get some clothes and blankets, because there were not enough there, just when I was about to open, I met this neighbour of mine, Modesto and he pushed me in. He said don't go out. I said why? He said there are the patrollers. I said which man? He said those men who are patrolling. I said so, what, no, I want to get my kids' blankets. He said no, don't go, because they are asking for your wife and they are asking for the UDF records for the meeting that UDF meetings and your husband is still explaining that those who called meetings there, bring their books and then they take them away. So he told that them that there were no records.
So some of them got in and searched for these documents, and he told them that he was not at the funeral, he knew nothing. They said well, like a man, who is one of the residents, just join us for patrol and check for this people who perpetrated. So he went with him. And this neighbour, whilst he was telling me not to go back, the door was closed, but not properly. But I could see, about 30 or so people, about 300 in my estimation. The way they were, there were many. So I said to my neighbour do you mean I must not go? She said no, don't go, because if your husband agrees, he will go and patrol. I said that's fine and he went, this neighbour went to join the patrol.
And then I peeped through the window and then I could see they were taking my husband, who was wearing a three-quarter coat, and that's how I could see him. And so they put him in the middle, they put him inside. I wasn't happy with the way they were walking with him, because they had said he was going to be part of the patrol.
So I opened the window at the back, I shouted to Zodwa, I said Zodwa, do you see what is happening there? Zodwa peeped also and he said where is your husband? I said he has gone with them, they said they are going to patrol with him. That was the last time I saw him that night.
So when they disappeared, I decided that because I had not finished with my cooking, because usually when there was some patrol, without there being any fights, we would join fights. But you would just join, because those were arranged by the community. So he used to come back to check if I was safe. But this particular night he didn't come back.
So when they disappeared I went back to my house. I sort of peeped so that they couldn't see me. So when I got to the house I noticed that he had locked, he just pulled the door. When I got into the house, I closed the door behind me. I went to the kitchen. I decided to put on the stove so that I - but then I decided against it again. I didn't do it.
I stayed for a while and then after a while these people came back again. My door was closed. I have two doors. One in the dining room, the other between the kitchen and the dining room. They knocked. I said who are you? And someone who was not talking in a refined manner, said open. So I opened. Then I saw there were many of these people. So I thought well, this is part of the patrol. So my husband must be part of them. So I thought he was going to indicate that he was there. So when I opened the door, the first one to come in, instructed me to go back to blow out the lamp, and I left the one in the kitchen. They said come and stand on the door step, just hold the door, close the door and face us. So I closed the door and stood next to it outside it, and they said, do you know where your husband is. So I said no, I thought he went for a patrol. They said do you know that your husband, we have held your husband and burnt his body.
I couldn't even cry, because these people who were telling me this were people that were my neighbours. They knew me, they knew my husband. I said okay, and they asked me how do you want to die. So I said why? They said because your comrades have burnt Xasa in his boot and you, how do you choose to die? I said well, I don't know, you kill me the way you want to kill me. Khama who was one of them, one of - he is one of my neighbours, said Jans, I don't know why you are asking all these questions, this is against the decision, because we have already decided that she also must be killed. She knows us, she is going to report us to the law-enforcement. Then someone was pushing something into my stomach. I don't know whether it was a stick and he said this prostitutes, you come all the way from the rural areas and come and rule us here; you think you can rule the country, you. I kept quiet. They said answer, how do you choose to die. I said anyhow. Then I was at that moment - apparently someone from among the neighbours did appear, I heard them say hey, you go back, you prostitute. They wanted me to be alone there. They said she must go back, and others were hitting me with the back of their hands. Khama said you guys are wasting time, I don't know what you are doing, because we never decided about this person, this person knows all of us, let us kill her. At that time I could see what they were doing, but I didn't believe that they had killed my husband and had the courage to come and tell me. I was still curious, trying to search with my eyes open to see him. But some of them had balaclavas on and towels hiding faces.
Then they said go into your boot. I said where is it? One of them pushed with a sabre, don't you know which one, the car we were coming from. Then I went in, they closed. I stayed in there. I waited maybe that they would burn the house because I had already heard that Rasipel's house was already burnt down. Because they said the house was my boot. So whilst I was inside the house waiting, not knowing what they were going to do. I waited for some while for about five minutes, and then they opened the door again. Then they stood there. I found them still standing there. One of them, Zandile followed in. He is in Butterworth now. He said you, we are just going to leave you, just you alone, because Siqaza's wife is not dead, but your husband must die. Where is your home? So I said I come from Fort Beaufort. He said haven't you got relatives here? I said yes, I have. Then they said get into your house and pick everything, because you are going to get a bakkie, we will come with this truck and take all your belongings to your home and we must never see you here again, you must not even walk past here, we must not even see you at the terminus. I said okay.
So I packed my belongings. I put my dishes into a big bath I had. I went to my wardrobe, the two wardrobes and I packed things. It so happened that I packed my husband's clothes first. So I decided I was going to use this chance to pack my things. Because I didn't believe them, maybe they wanted to take my clothes away. So whilst I wrapped his clothes in a blanket, carried them to the neighbour, the one where my children were. But they had not all left. Some of them were still around the house. So as I was leaving the house, they heard the door opening and then they said where are you going, where do you think you are going at this time of the night. I said no, I am going home to throw away this rubbish. They said no, just throw it into your house. So I thought this is not true, why is it that they didn't want me to go out. So I went back and closed the door.
I closed the door and waited inside. Because I was so tired because of packing and running around. They had removed all the blankets from the bed and I draped the blankets into some bundles. I just sat on the lower part of the bed in one of the rooms. My house had four rooms. I sat on the lowest part of the bed with my feet hanging. Then I supported my head with my hands and then I lie down a little bit.
After a while I apparently just went to sleep for a while, I went to sleep. Whilst I was sleeping I felt that there was something that was choking me, but it is, I didn't feel like getting up, but I don't know how to explain it, it is like you know, someone is sitting on you, because I was alert mentally. But I couldn't lift my head, and I could see that there is something that is choking me. But then I remembered that I didn't put out the lamp. I thought maybe the curtain in the kitchen is burning, but I couldn't lift my head. I wanted to, my body was weak. And then eventually I lifted myself, I notice that there was some fire. The house is full of smoke. Then the smoke was choking me. I supported myself with the walls and went to the door which leads into my kids' room. Then I supported myself. Then I went into the kids' room, but there wasn't much smoke. Then I went to the kitchen and the room, my house was painted green at the back, and it was difficult to see the door, because it was one car. So I touched the handle of the door. I heard some passing man and shouting, come, come quickly, here is this prostitute going to the door. Then I saw them running towards the kitchen door. Then I peeped and there is net on my (indistinct) and I noticed that they were going back. They didn't notice the door.
So when they went back as they were turning away, it so happened that not all of them went away, some of them went to my neighbour's house which was number 48, my home was 46, and then I heard my neighbour screaming and saying where are the people, and then they were banging at the doors. Whilst they were doing that I noticed that some of them were still in the front of my house. I heard someone say let's run, here are these boers, don't come in. At that time there were some Hippos coming in because there was the Sybil's house had been burnt down and the creche, maybe that's why the Casspir in. They saw in, then they ran away. But I didn't trust that they had all gone.
Then I went from the kitchen and I went to the toilet, my neighbour's toilet, those plastic toilets. Then I went there because I didn't want to go towards my house, because I didn't know if they were still there. Whilst I was there I noticed that my house was burning and the toilet itself was becoming too hot and I didn't want it to melt on me, so I went out of the toilet. As I was running out, I went to the street and screamed, and a neighbour of mine picked me up and I am still staying with that neighbour.
I think it was towards dawn, whilst my house was burning, the people in the Hippo called me. They put me into the Hippo and asked if there are other people inside the house, the burning house. I said yes, there are. They said who. I said it is my kids. At that time I had forgotten that the kids were not there, that I had taken them away. They tried to extinguish the fire. Then they said no, the kids are outside, they are safe.
They tried to extinguish the fire, and this policeman asked what happened, what caused the fire. I explained, I said the people that I had recognised there were Mokeswo, who lives in Khayelitsha and Sandile followed him and Kham who is a taxi man amongst the taxi people now, and some people whose faces I know but whose names I did not know, but I know them facially. They said do I know where they stayed. I said yes, some of them yes, but only these I mentioned. They said I could walk, but they said let's go to the Hippo then.
When we got there at Mkweso's house, there was his son standing in front of the house. I asked him first where is your father. he said my father left yesterday, he hasn't come back since and this policeman asked, didn't he go to the patrol at sunset? He said no, I don't know. So I said let's go to Mr Xhasa's place, because they are his friends. So we went there, and then there was another Valiant parked there. Then I went in before this police. Because I think I wasn't even thinking at that stage, I didn't even know where I was apparently. I was opening the gate, Mkweso appeared with his dress, this brown, he was wearing. When I asked, I couldn't stand it any more, and then I hurt him. The policeman removed me and I picked up some stones. The policeman stopped me. He said your husband, he said your husband is there. I said where, let's go where he is. The policeman said let's go.
So we went, we went down the road. I was running in front, ahead of the police. I had only one shoe on. We went down this road, driving with this police. When we passed Nishoto, it was not Nishoto then, it was just a place for some people who were settled there informally. We went to this one house there. There was a young newly-wed woman who was cleaning. I said to this young woman, where is Zandile followed. She said no, she is not there. I said where did she go to. She said no, she has gone to work. She went to work yesterday. I said you are lying, he was there last night, I was talking to him. She said no. I said no, I was speaking to her last night, where is she. And this young lady locked - I don't know if she was locking him inside and then we went back, but what happened actually, is that whilst we were running down the road, we were passing my husband's body, smoking, and we didn't see it.
When we came back we didn't come back the same way. We came back from the terminus side. On Terminus Road, I know we were turning towards my house, I saw another lady. This lady and I met and went towards my house. I was already in another small police van. This lady, they said there is a man that was picked up, whose body has been picked up and my mind told me that this must be my husband, because we had been looking for him.
The police asked how does your husband look. Whilst I was trying to describe how he looks like, the police said anyway, just jump onto the bakkie, so we can show you the remains of this person, maybe you will recognise him. So I climbed onto the bakkie and the bakkie went like a distance from here towards the door there. We were going to see the remains of this person who was picked up by the police. The person that they said was dead who had been burnt.
Another lady passed, her name is Margot. She used to stay next to Siqasa in Terminus Road. She was passing through this van whilst we were on our way to the remains of this dead person. Margot said, covered herself with a jersey, crossing in front of the van, because the bakkie was slow. This is the place we were going to, it is very close. Margot said as she was passing this van, she said oh, God, how could they kill Maggie's husband like this. That is the last I heard, when she said how could they kill him. I don't know how I got off the van, but I was between the driver and the other person. I don't know how I got off the van. I don't know if I pushed the police out, I don't know.
The next time we realised, I found myself at NY7, at my home. My husband was buried on the 4th of January 1986. At that time he was not working. He was not working. I lived by just trying to make means myself. I was helped by my organisation, the UDF and the funeral was from my place and the service at the stadium, and it was handled by the comrades. Then we went to the graveyard and came back.
The comrades from the UDF helped me with everything. When we were leaving the graveyard, there was a grave that was dug out, the coffin was outside. When we - after finishing, washing the heads, I said I was scared what would happen to my husband's grave, maybe it will be dig out again. So we went there the evening. We took out the crosses, the name crosses and we hid it. And the following morning the comrades bought some cement, went back to the grave and we took out the name crosses and the grave was dug again and then some corrugated iron sheets were put and the names were changed and the other person they gave false names, so that if ever someone wanted to dig, they shouldn't recognise the graves. Then we covered them with sand and then I went back home.
I didn't have anywhere to stay, so I will stay with my family, although we are crowded there. Whilst I was still at home, it is not my real home, it is my cousin's sister's home. I wasn't happy because I didn't have anything. I was dependent on them for food and everything. So I took my kids and went back to KTC. So I didn't have anywhere to stay. I was given an empty house there, that's where I stayed. Whitey's mother who is now late, used to help me. She said I should go to the terminus and help at Shawco, the people who get jobs at Shawco, maybe I would get work. Maybe I could get something to make a living. But after six months I used to collect things for myself, and then again our house was burnt down. That house was also burnt down.
We ran away because we were told never to return. That I should never come back to my home. All the people who had done this, had left their houses, even the house which I was using. I was just given this house, I didn't know to whom it belonged. I suspected that it was one of the people who had killed my husband and they had disappeared and he went to South African Breweries in Butterworth. Mkweso and others remained, John, but we don't see them at KTC, but we saw them after a few years. I see them here and there, now and again. I wish to end there.
MS BURTON: Thank you, Mrs Sokupa. I know it has been very, very hard for you to tell the story, and you have shown us what a terrible day and how you were really driven, distracted by all the things that happened to you on that day. I just want to go back and ask you a few questions, if you won't mind. You have explained to us that you were a member of the UDF and in support of your organisation, you went to the funeral.
MS SOKUPA: That is so.
MS BURTON: And then you said that you were all told to go away from the funeral. Was that by the marshals, were they the ones who said you must leave?
MS SOKUPA: We were told that the marshals and all the other men who were there, I can't say who it is exactly, who gave the instruction.
MS BURTON: And then you went home and your husband was at home, and was he politically involved, was he a member of the UDF too?
MS SOKUPA: Yes, he was. He was a member of the UDF.
MS BURTON: And you said that when you told him what had happened, that he thought that maybe if he had been there he might have been able to prevent the death of Mr Siqasa. Is that right?
MS SOKUPA: Yes, he said this would not have happened if I were there. He would have stopped this because - he would have. He believed he would have stopped them because the youth used to respect him, because they used to hold their meetings at our place and they always listened to what he said, and I am sure if he were there and he had talked to them, they would have listened to him. That's why I think he felt that he could have stopped them, because they respected him a lot.
MS BURTON: I find it very interesting that you are telling us this. Because sometimes the story of this terrible time in KTC is shown that on the one side it was the fathers and on the other side it was the young people, the young Maxabani, and yet, you and your husband were not young people, and you were respected leaders in the community. But your political affiliation with the United Democratic Front puts you on one side, almost whether you wanted it or not, you were there.
And then when the patrol came around and your neighbours were warning you to run away, your husband refused to run away. He had no sense of having done anything which would make him guilty, which would make him have to run away.
MS SOKUPA: Yes, that is so, he didn't see anything, any reason for running away. He didn't see no reason, because in his thoughts he was sure that the people who did that, were known. He thought they would be known and he thought that he had never been to the funeral and he thought that would be known that he was not there.
MS BURTON: But in fact, what was happening by then was the feelings were so strong and the anger was so great that it didn't really matter if you were there or not. The sides had been taken and you almost had to choose to take sides and to suffer accordingly.
MS SOKUPA: Yes, if you were a member you would be affected, but he simply believed because he was not there, he would not be affected by the revenge, and when I said we should run away he said you can't run away from death, you can never run away from death. That is what he was saying. And then there were of course other comrades who didn't run away, like Zodwa, for instance. I too, didn't intend to run away, but I could understand how he felt, that he should not go. We didn't think he could because we never thought we should run away.
MS BURTON: And so he lost his life, you lost your husband, you lost your house, you very nearly lost your own life. At least your neighbours had helped you to get your children to safety. But we understand that your life was never the same again and the support of your organisation still couldn't do anything to bring back your husband.
MS SOKUPA: That is so.
MS BURTON: We really want to say how grateful we are to you for coming. You had to be very brave at the time when you faced those who were attacking you and you have to be brave again to come and speak today about what happened. But it is very helpful to us to understand that things were not simple, that people, even for instance, amongst your neighbours you had people who were part, seen as part of the side that was supporting the councillors. And that you lived all close together and that people were often forced into taking one side or another in the conflict. And that even when they tried to help each other, it wasn't always possible to do so. So we want to thank you very much for having come here today and told us your story and explained to us the situation in which you lived at the time. Chairperson, I don't know if people want to ask more questions.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary. Glenda Wildschut?
MS WILDSCHUT: Mamma, could you please tell us what has happened to your children since your husband died, how have they been since his death?
MS SOKUPA: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on) ... who working. They are being supported by my daughter. She is educating them, but her salary is very small. One of them is doing Std 9 in Umtata, the other one is doing Std 6 here, but the other one is doing Std 6, the girl. The other one is doing Std 1. She is studying at Observatory. They are all being supported by one person because I am unemployed and I am unable to get a job. I just survive on selling, on doing some small business for myself.
MS WILDSCHUT: Have the children ever told you how they are feeling about the way in which your husband died, their father died and how that has affected their, how it has affected them emotionally?
MS SOKUPA: They talk about it, and they sometimes hear about it, people do tell them about how their father died. I remember when I was with comrade Nosapo, when my youngest daughter asked if I know Mr Mkweso, and I said no. And he said Mr Mongeswe, the one who has a loud hailer. And she asked if it wasn't the man who killed my father. And she said that one day when I grow up and I become a comrade, I will also kill him. Even the eldest also asked me when we were still living in Khayelitsha. She said that we don't have a father and other people are working and we are having a hard time and the other children seem to be happy. And sometimes we can't go to school because our sister is not always able to help us. Seemingly they are not happy because they don't have a father and they seem to be having hard living.
MS WILDSCHUT: And have you and your family ever been seen by somebody who can help you with your feelings? Has anybody come to help you in that way?
MS SOKUPA: I have never been helped by anyone.
MS WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Glenda. We thank you very much that you came to tell us your sad story, but now I just want to hand over to the people who are with you, because we are going to call the next witness now. Sorry, sorry, just one moment.
MS BURTON: I just want to say one more thing for your sake and also for the other people who are here, to hear. You have mentioned the names of the people whom you believe or know were involved in the death of your husband. Now as part of our work we need to inform, we will have informed those people and they have a right to come back and tell us what they believe happened. And this is part of our attempt to bring the whole story out into the open and to make sure that everything is known about what happened at that time, and to give an opportunity, maybe, to those people to say that they are sorry for what they did. When we hear your reply to Glenda Wildschut's question and the anger that your children sometimes feel, that is also part of our job, as the Commission, but also part of the job of everybody in the community, to make sure that our children grow up not always feeling anger and seeking revenge, so that we can create for them a society where they live in peace with their neighbours. So thank you for your part in coming to build that picture for us.
MS SOKUPA: Can I ask something? I would like to, if these people are called, Detective Khan should not be left out, because when I went to give a statement, there was a list of names of people that I know, and this detective asked if I knew those people. I said no, I didn't know, because they were just these names. He said these are the people who killed Siqaza. I said why do you ask me because I wanted to know about those who killed my husband, because they were taken again, but they were released and I was never called for my case, but I have been to the police station, to this detective, Detective Khan. I don't know if he is a sergeant, but he was one of the senior detectives. He has just ignored my case like that. It was as if the death of my husband was just like a dog that has been knocked down by a car, because there was never a case, no person from the law-enforcement department ever came to us.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you. Thank you, we have taken note of what you have told us. We thank you very much. We will take it up and follow it, try to find out. Thank you.
