Human Rights Violation Hearings

REVD FINCA: We would request that those people who have a problem following the language, do get the earphones handed over to them so that we are ready to start. Let us just check how many people are needing earphones. Only one person there? Okay, let's say that those who are needing earphones, should talk to, where is the Logistics Officer, to that lady at the door there - those who are needing earphones.

The procedure that we are going to follow, will be in Xhoza. I was just telling those people who do not understand Xhoza, what to do. We welcome you in this hearing of the Truth Commission, here in Cradock. We thank you for your presence in this hearing and we thank you for accompanying the people who will be testifying in front of the Commission.

We are now going to start - the time is quarter past nine. Usually, before the proceedings, we usually stand up to give respect to the people who will be testifying, therefor I request you to stand up.

We are going to ask Reverend Vena to lead us in prayer. THE COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS.

REVD FINCA: We thank Reverend Vena. We greet the people of Cradock. We thank the Lord that He kept us until we got to Cradock, the place that we know.

I think all the South Africans know this place, of its

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contribution. The great contribution that it made in the struggle of liberation in our country.

If we mention the places that brought the leaders of the struggle of liberation, we usually mention Cradock as one of those places because it had a remarkable contribution.

It had that spirit that was so amazing in fighting for our freedom in our country. When we arrived here in Cradock, some of us were involved in the struggle, they get the spirit because they came to the root of the struggle. As the Commission was planning its work at the beginning of last year, when it concluded where to start, there was an idea that the first hearing should sit in Cradock, but because of other regions, because we wanted the first hearing to show our region Eastern Cape, as a whole, we had to take different cases from different people of different nations and different organisations.

We concluded that the first hearing should be in East London, but I would like to tell you that Cradock was among the places that we thought about first.

We thank you that you are here today when we are towards the end of our work as the Commission. In this hearing we are going to talk about the incidents from Cradock and the other towns. We have tried to mix the incidents of Cradock and Somerset and the other neighbouring towns.

I want to welcome therefor all the people who are here especially the 15 people who will be testifying in front of this Commission. I would like to welcome Reverend Henry Maqroa, who is from the Anglican Church, who is here with us.

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I would like to welcome also the visitors from the United States of America that are here with us today. I would request them to stand up as I would be calling their names. That is Vincent Warren, Shanna Judge. There is Mora Lee, and Annemarie Cillie, Gene Mackalhan and Flemming Hoffman. These are the visitors who are here from the United States.

They are here in South Africa. Last week they were in the Gauteng hearings, this week they will be here with us for the three days here in Cradock. We would like to thank them, they have been here with us, admitting that the struggle of liberating this country, got support from different countries.

The countries who were us while we were in pain. We thank this opportunity of reconciliation and they are here with us today.

Lastly I would like to introduce, just before we start with the hearing. I would like to tell the people that we have got a lot of statements coming from the neighbouring towns that we will be dealing with in this three day hearing here in Cradock. We have something like 124 different cases.

Unfortunately we cannot take all this statements to the hearing, because if we will try to take all of them, we can take three to four weeks sitting here in Cradock, listening to those cases.

Because of that, we had to restructure again and take a few cases. I want to make it clear to the people that the statements that are not brought forward to the hearing, that does not necessarily mean that the Commission is ignoring them or maybe such statements are not as important as the

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other statements.

Because of the limited time that we have, we can take only a few statements. The statements that are not brought forward to the Commission, the Commission is dealing with them the same as the other statements, in other words, our investigative unit is going to investigate those cases. The Committee of the Human Rights Violations is also going to deal with those statements and make a finding.

The Committee of Rehabilitation and Reparation is going to work with those statements. I want to assure the people who won't be appearing in front of the Commission that their statements that are here with us, they also get the same attention as the other statements for those people who will be here, coming forward to testify.

We will be here for three days, it is today, tomorrow and Wednesday. Because of the fact that today it is our first day, we have started at quarter past nine. As from tomorrow and Wednesday, we will start exactly at nine o'clock. We therefor request that the people should be seated at half past eight.

We appeal to the people that they give the hearing the respect that it deserves, and the dignity that it deserves. I am talking to the people of Cradock who know our battle, and the people who know what respect means, what kind of respect we gave to the victims of that battle. Thank you. For now I am going to hand over to Miss Tiny Maya, who will be telling us about the order of the day. Thank you.

MS MAYA: Thank you Chairperson. Honourable Presiding Commissioner, I present to you this morning a list of all the people who have applied to appear before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation

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Commission in the order in which they will appear. I wish to point out first that today our testimonies will cover four areas, or Magisterial Districts which are Cradock, Venterstad, Jansenville and Aberdeen. We originally had 17 witnesses who would be testifying on our line-out, but two of them, we are told, are absent unfortunately.

I will first read out the names of the witnesses who will be testifying, then those of the victims who were affected, the nature of the violation and the year during which such a violation occurred.

We have Novintwembi Grace Ngqamfane, in the matter of Zongezile Patrick Mfazwe, who was murdered in Cradock in 1986.

Notutu Lizzie James, in the matter of Rocky James, murdered in Cradock in 1977. Xoliswa Ethel Mboya, in the matter of John Vuyisile Mboya, murdered in Cradock in 1992. Thandiwe Agness Dano, in the matter of Luyanda Dano, torture and severe ill-treatment in Cradock, 1977.

Boniswa Elsie Khethwa, in the matter of Simphiwe Khethwa, murdered in Venterstad in 1986. Velele Willie Ramncwana, in the matter of himself. He was tortured in Venterstad in 1963.

Polina Nolese Mbalula, in the matter of Nobeki Mbalula, who was murdered in Venterstad in 1993. Mxolisi Goboza, testifying about himself - attempted murder in Venterstad, 1993.

Thembinkosi Tshabe, in the matter of himself, attempted murder, Venterstad, 1993. Deborah Nomeisie Mzati, in the matter of Ayanda Mzati, disappearance, Jansenville, 1989.

David Velele Mngona in the matter of himself and that of his brother, Peter Rapudi. He was subjected to severe

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ill-treatment and his brother was murdered in Jansenville in 1985.

Nomight Regina Booyse, in the matter of Vuyani Douze, who was murdered in Jansenville in 1986. Ginette Nompumelelo Mejane, in the matter of Thembile Mejane, who disappeared from Jansenville in 1985. Nettie Maradebe Grootboom, in the matter of Themba Richard Grootboom, who was murdered in Jansenville in 1986.

Xolile Gadion Mzati, testifying about himself. He was tortured in Aberdeen in 1985. David Kaiser Meintjies, testifying about himself, attempted murder in Aberdeen in 1985. And the last one is John Tembisile Vena, testifying about himself. He was tortured in Aberdeen from 1985, right up to 1991. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

REVD FINCA: We thank you Miss Maya. Before we start with our hearing, it is our tradition that we have a moment of silence to remember the people that we will be talking about, the people who died. I would request the people to stand up to give that respect.

We remember Zongezile Patrick Mfazwe, Rocky James, John Vuyisile Mboya, Simphiwe Khethwa, Nobeki Mbalula, Ayanda Mzati, Peter Rapudi, Vuyani Douze, Thembile Mejane, Themba Richard Grootboom.

May their souls rest in peace, may the Lord give them His light.

As usual we will now hand over. Just before I do that, I will introduce our panel today. We have Commissioners and Committee members of the Eastern Cape. From my far left, we have Mrs June Crichton, who is coming from Port Elizabeth, who used to work for the Black Sash. She was in the forefront in the Anglican Church Congregation. She is now

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a member of the Committee called the Human Rights Violations.

On my left I have Reverend Xundu. I think the people of Cradock know him. Most of the funerals here, he used to be there, he used to attend those funerals. You will remember in the funeral of the Cradock four, he was participating as an Officiating Minister. He is an Anglican Church Reverend, and one of the prominent activists that were coming from the church here in the Eastern Cape.

On my right I have Miss Tiny Maya, she is an attorney, She is from Umtata where she was working as an attorney. She was practising as an attorney, she was also a prominent member in the organisations of attorneys dealing with Human Rights. She is also a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.

On my far right, I have Mr Ntsiki Sandi. He is also an attorney. He is from Grahamstown. He was working on the border, he was working with the organisations of the attorneys that were actually dealing with Human Rights. I am Bongani Finca from Alice. We are the members of this panel today. Dr Alex Boraine, who is the Secretary of the Commission, he actually phoned me this morning greeting us because he is an acting Chairperson of this Commission as the Bishop is still sick at the moment.

He is also wishing us success, he is not here but he is with us in prayer. We are going to start.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Chairman, just before you start, I would like to introduce Reverend Finca who was in the Council of Churches. He was also involved in Ciskei during the overthrowing of the Government of Qgozo, he is also the Convenor of this Region, so I would like to introduce him to CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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you, because he had a great contribution in looking at the Human Rights Violations. He is also a Convenor, he also deserves the position that he is holding. With those words, I wanted to introduce him to you, thank you.

REVD FINCA: We are going to call upon Notutu Lizzie James. We welcome you Mrs Lizzie. We are going to hand over to Reverend Xundu who will be administering the oath.

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: (sworn states)

REVD XUNDU: Thank you.

REVD FINCA: Tiny Maya will be leading you in questions Mrs James.

MS MAYA: Thank you Chairperson. I greet you Mrs James. Firstly I want to verify your names, you are Notutu Lizzie James, is that so? You reside at number 22 Loqolene Street, is that so?

MRS JAMES: Yes.

MS MAYA: You are going to tell us today about your son, Rocky James, who was killed in 1977. What can you tell us about James, how old was he at the time?

MRS JAMES: He was 17 years old at the time. It was early in the morning, the White policeman came with the Councillor. I didn't know the White policeman, I only know the Councillor who was Xolile Dosini.

They didn't knock at the door, instead they kicked the door. When I asked, they said open up. Because I was just discharged from the hospital, though I was still sick, I tried to stand up to open up the door - when I opened the door, they asked me where is Rocky, I said Rocky is asleep, what's wrong?

They said they were looking for him. I said he was in the bedroom that was next to mine. They went there to that

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bedroom and I followed them. When he stood up, Dosini lit him with a torch, he said don't do that because I must first get my clothes. He said, you are not going to tell me what to do.

I said, you can't talk like that. Just give my child a chance to dress up, he is not going to get out of the house, naked as if he has killed a person. They waited for him until he finished dressing up. When he was about to go out, he said I greet you, Mom and Dad.

When he went out Dosini said, we are not going to waste time about you, we are going to deal with you quickly. They took him out, his father was preparing himself to go to work. I went back to bed.

After some time another van came. They didn't kick the door this time, they knocked. I kept quiet, I was sitting on my bed. I opened the curtains and I could see that there were policemen. I kept quiet. They said open up, I didn't respond.

They ordered me to open the door again, I didn't respond. They went to the door, the door was not locked because it was in the morning. When they opened, I remembered that there was a child who was sleeping in the lounge and I went there.

They asked me if I knew Rocky, I said yes, he is my son. They asked where is Rocky? I told them that the police took him. They asked me the name of the police, I said I don't know the names of the White policeman, I only know the Councillor which is Xolile Dosini.

They said we are coming to tell you that the police who took your son, have killed him. They went out of the door. After they have said that, I couldn't cry. The only thing

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that I did, I went out, but I am still wondering - even today - whether I was dressed up when I went to his father in town.

The neighbours woke up because the children were crying and I was not there. One of the neighbours who followed me and I was telling her to go back, because I didn't want to be there with anybody, I wanted to be with my God. And I knew that she was going to disturb me and I told her that if you are accompanying me, you must keep quiet because I am still talking to my Lord.

When I went to the garage where my husband was working, I saw him. He was alighting from the police van, he approached me and he told me that the police brought - he asked me if the police came to my house and he also told me that they took him to where my son was, but they didn't let him to come closer to him. They said he must just stand at a distance and confirm that it was his son.

They took him back to work. When we were still talking, there was another van who came to fetch him, my husband. He gave me the money, the bus fare to go back home and I said, I don't want to take any transport, I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't want to be disturbed, because I am still communicating with my Lord and I am asking the Lord what to do.

I decided to walk home. When I arrived home I noticed that there were lots of people, and the teachers were there. I told them that when the police were taking him, my son, I told them that they must first tell the teachers because he was writing exams.

What they did, they confused his father, so that he mustn't think about what to do about his son, because each

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time one other van is bringing him. Each time the van brought him home, the other van would come and take him back to the police station and they forced his father so sign that he was operated, he must sign the form and then he refused to sign, because he said he was not told about the operation. The person who made the operation, must sign.

They told us that we are not going to get the body of my son, they are going to bury him on a Thursday. He was going to be buried be the Government and we are not allowed to attend the funeral. He was going to be buried by the police.

I asked them how can that happen because we are the parents of his boy? They said, it is the law because whatever he was doing, he was doing it, we are not supposed to be at his funeral, we are not going to attend.

I tried, I made some attempts because I noticed that the father was still confused. I went to seek for legal advise from Fishart, who was a legal adviser from Port Elizabeth and I wanted him to come just before the funeral.

He came, Fishart came on a Wednesday at six o'clock, he went there, when he arrived, the District Commandant of the time asked the attorney where do you get this information, because I just arrived, I was on leave? I didn't hear anything about that, and you are coming from Port Elizabeth, you have this kind of information?

The attorney told him that the parents of this boy told him. They wanted to know who informed Fishart. Fishart said these parents have another child who is also in Port Elizabeth, who is the one who gave me, Fishart, the message.

MR MAYA: Let me just interrupt you Mrs James. Did Fishart help you to get the body of your son to bury it in the

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normal way?

MRS JAMES: Yes, he helped us but they were also forcing us to bury him before time. I said, he was not going to be buried, the Government have killed my child and he is finished his role and the role is mine.

He was killed on a Wednesday, we buried him the following week.

MS MAYA: Were there any disturbances during the funeral?

MRS JAMES: During his funeral there were some disturbances because they were shooting teargas, there was a helicopter that was moving around. I only noticed all these after we came from the graveyard and I only noticed - I also noticed that the schools were burning.

After the funeral I took a taxi. I went to a place called Nolali where Xolile was working. The Councillor refused me permission to talk to Xolile. I think they phoned the police station because after that I saw the police vans and the police alighted from the vans, pointing guns and they surrounded me and Xolile came out of the office and I said, don't be afraid, Xolile, I am not going to do anything. I just want to tell you something.

As a Xhoza person, if you know that if somebody else have done something wrong to you, you usually go to the inyanga's. If you don't have money to consult inyanga, tell me, I will give you money to pay your inyanga, because my only inyanga is my God and all that has happened, God will see to it and I left him.

I went back to the house and even in the house I didn't tell anybody.

MS MAYA: As far as you know Mrs James, where is Xolile Dosini now?

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MRS JAMES: I don't know what is he doing there.

MS MAYA: Can you please tell us now about Rocky again. You said Rocky at the time was only 16 years old, he was at school?

MRS JAMES: Yes.

MS MAYA: Do you know what role did he play in the political organisation or maybe the community organisations?

MRS JAMES: Rocky, at that time, was in the Youth League of the ANC.

MS MAYA: At the time of his arrest, do you know any reason for his arrest?

MRS JAMES: No.

MS MAYA: The details of his death, did you get them and what was happening, what did they say about his death?

MRS JAMES: I didn't get those details because though they were saying that his case was going to sit in Port Elizabeth, we were given the dates, but they said me and my husband were going to be given train tickets. The people who would be transported in vans, would be the people who would be testifying, the people who would be witnesses.

What I said, the very same people who took my child, they must also bring him again and I am not going to take a train, I am also going to take a van, because my son was taken in a van, so I am also going to take the same van.

We got into the van and we went to Port Elizabeth. I don't know what is it that they said, because they didn't ask anything, they didn't mention any attorney. This is where I learnt that the courts are full of corruption, because there are children who weren't there who were witnesses.

Those who would be testifying against us, they had a

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right to be protected. We were told that the case was closed. We didn't hear anything, they didn't ask us anything as the parents, they didn't even attempt to get the teachers who were teaching my child at school and get evidence that my child was attending school. They just discussed alone with Fishart.

Even Fishart was not given any information.

MS MAYA: Was Fishart there?

MRS JAMES: Yes, he arrived during the court's proceedings.

MS MAYA: Lastly you have told us that your child was operated without your permission. Who was that Doctor, do you know him?

MRS JAMES: Even the Doctor, we didn't know anything about him, because even the Death Certificate was not available, so he was just buried like a dog, because I was deprived of my rights.

MS MAYA: Did you get the Death Certificate later on?

MRS JAMES: No. I once tried to get a Death Certificate, but the Secretary, the clerk told me that I was supposed to get a document that should be sent to Pretoria and I must pay R10-00 for it. Because in that document it is written that Rocky James was dead and he was buried, there was nothing else.

MS MAYA: The last question, your request, or the wish that you have that you would like to tell the Commission, what is it?

MRS JAMES: What I would like to request is that the Commission, as I am now the only person who is alive, I don't have a husband, the Commission should see how it could help me.

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MS MAYA: You have told us about your illness, can you tell us more about it?

MRS JAMES: I am undergoing treatment because I am sick. There is no other way that I can help myself. It is just that sometimes the groceries of my children is missing and I bought the groceries, and I put it in the transport, but when I went home, there was nothing. I don't even know what happened.

I didn't have the groceries with me, I don't even know what kind of transport I used from town to home, but one child that I am staying with, he said that I came and I asked for water to drink some tablets, and I said to him if somebody is looking for me, he must just say I am not around.

And I went into my bedroom and I locked my bedroom and I slept there. I remembered when the school children came home in the afternoon and they asked me did you go to buy any groceries, I said yes. They asked where was the groceries, I said just look in the house, it is there.

And the other child told them that I didn't come with any groceries. And what is actually wrong with me, is that I have a heart problem and high blood and nerves. If I happen to get those attacks at the same time, my mind is not working, so I just decide to go and sleep.

MS MAYA: So you are trying to tell us that you need some help so that you can get medical treatment?

MRS JAMES: Yes, if it is possible to get one, I would appreciate it.

MS MAYA: Is there anything that you would like to add?

MRS JAMES: There is nothing more. This is the end of my story. There is nothing that I would like to take into my

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hands, as this happened, I knew that my God is alive. All my problems, I should just give them to Him, there is nothing else that I am prepared to do because in some of the problems, I would like God to see to it, how He can help me.

MS MAYA: I am going to hand over to Mr Chairperson, maybe he might have some other questions.

REVD FINCA: Reverend Xundu?

REVD XUNDU: Mrs James, I want to know about your son, if he had a child or not?

MRS JAMES: He didn't have a child at the time.

REVD XUNDU: Who was the District Surgeon at the time? There is usually a Government Doctor, called a District Surgeon, do you know that District Surgeon?

MRS JAMES: No, I don't know him.

REVD XUNDU: Do you know the Doctors here in Cradock who were there at the time?

MRS JAMES: I know some of them, I've forgotten some of them.

REVD XUNDU: Did you see Xolile after this incident, except the day that you went to tell him about the inyanga?

MRS JAMES: Yes, I saw Xolile after that. He was mentally disturbed. After that, I didn't see him again. I once saw him while his Sergeant called me, I was on my way from the hospital, his Sergeant called me.

He said I must tell him so that he can apologise because when Xolile was retrenched, even his clothes were taken, even his uniform was taken and he was not given a chance to go and wash them, so I heard that he was once there. His mother approached me because he wanted to apologise.

What I said to his mother, I said I can't say anything

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about Rocky, because it is not mine any more, because it was the devil, it was the police, it was Rocky and God was waiting to welcome Xolile's soul. So I won't be there, I can't say anything about Xolile.

REVD XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson.

REVD FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mrs James, here I have your statement, your written statement. I notice that there are things that you didn't mention during your testimony, therefor I would like to ask you a few questions with the aim of getting clarity.

Let us start about Mr Xolile Dosini, was this Xolile Dosini a Municipal Police?

MRS JAMES: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did the Municipal Police have a good relationship with the community?

MRS JAMES: Yes, they had a good relationship.

MR SANDI: I noticed in your statement that you said that you heard that your son and the others who were arrested with him, were taken to the office of Black Local Authority, do you mean the Municipal offices?

MRS JAMES: Yes.

MR SANDI: Where did you get that information?

MRS JAMES: The other children that he was with, were in that office, all of them. When I moved from my house, I didn't go straight to town, I went to the Municipal offices. When I arrived there, Xolile was scrubbing the floors where my son's blood was.

MR SANDI: What is it that they are saying, what happened in there, what did they tell you happened before Rocky was killed?

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MRS JAMES: It is only Xolile who was there. The Sergeant who was with him, was not around at that time. While they were assaulting, they said he left, he was not there while they were assaulting them.

MR SANDI: Didn't you say that one policeman came to the cells and said Rocky must go out and run away and when he was trying to run away, they shot him.

MRS JAMES: No, I didn't say that. He was not in the cells, Rocky was not in the cells, he was in the Municipal offices, he was killed in those offices.

MR SANDI: At school, are there any complaints or troubles that were there that were caused by Rocky as students?

MRS JAMES: No, there were no problems. His teacher, when I told his teacher that the case was closed, he asked me as a teacher, why he was not called to the court to give a statement from a teacher's perspective.

Because he even took his exam papers to show them, he was prepared to show them to the court, trying to tell the people that he didn't go to school on that particular day.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

REVD FINCA: Mrs Lizzie James, we thank you for coming before this Commission and tell us this story about your son who was killed in this manner.

We thank you that this story reminds us, and it also reminds the people of this country, that they mustn't forget that this country was liberated through the blood of people like your son, Rocky.

I just wish that the Minister of Justice, Mr Dulah Omar, I wish he was here to listen to your story and the way that you were respecting the Courts of Law and the way that you lost that confidence in the Courts of Law because of the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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case of your son and the way it was handled.

Because that is showing us that the people who are our leaders today, they have to take further steps to try and bring back the dignity that the courts used to have.

The courts that lost their dignities because of the people who were leaders of the time. We also notice that your son died like a dog. There was no compensation, there was nothing. When the Commission will be making a report back to the President, we will also mention that as it shall be coming from most of the people who are coming in front of us, the people who sought help at the Courts of Law, in stead the Courts of Law acted with apartheid rules in stead of sympathising with the people who were in pain.

We thank you Mrs James, we also promise that all that you have told us today, we will try as much as we can to deal with that in the correct manner. We include them in the report back that we will be giving to the President of our country. Thank you, you can take your seat.