Human Rights Violation Hearings

REV XUNDU: Nongazi Lillian Mata, please stand up.

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: (Duly sworn in, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you. Sicelo Raymond "Silombo" Tile, please stand up.

MR TOYI: I am Velisile Toyi.

REV XUNDU: Please stand up.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: (Duly sworn in, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Reverend. We will ask Mr Ntsiki Sandi to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let us begin with Mrs Nongazi Lillian Mata. You made a request, Mam, to appear in front of the Commission to talk about your child who was shot in 1985. He was shot in Joza township. What is her name. Is she Hombakazi Matiwane. Can you explain, Mam, without me interrupting you, telling us what happened.

MRS MATA: Hombakazi left home and she went to church. When she arrived there, there was nobody. All the people went to the funeral. She went to Joza and she passed, she went to her aunties house and then from there she went to the stadium looking for her cousin so that they can go together to the funeral. She then got shot when they were coming from the funeral. They were from the stadium. I do not know what happened because I was not Joza at that time, but they were shot before reaching the graveyard. It was on Sunday, this funeral was on Sunday.

ADV SANDI: Who shot Hombakazi, did you hear the person's name who shot your daughter, who shot Hombakazi?

MRS MATA: I do not know who shot her because I was not there.

ADV SANDI: How old was Hombakazi at the time?

MRS MATA: She was 15 years old.

ADV SANDI: Was she attending school?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: In which standard was she?

MRS MATA: She was doing standard three.

ADV SANDI: Was she a member of COSAS or any other student organisation?

MRS MATA: Yes, she was a student at the time when these organisations were formed.

ADV SANDI: Did you, was there any court case?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you represented by an attorney?

MRS MATA: I am not sure about his name, but it is de la Ham.

ADV SANDI: Is it Mr de La Haper?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What happened in court?

MRS MATA: The case continued and we were told that the case was withdrawn. We were then informed that we will receive letters, but up until today we did not receive any letter.

ADV SANDI: Your child was shot together with Buli in the coloured area?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you meet with Mr de la Haper after this?

MRS MATA: No, but he said that he will come back to us. I did not have an interpreter, but the coloured woman told me that the case was withdrawn, but we have to wait for letters.

ADV SANDI: You did not receive these letters even today?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you affected in your health because of this incident?

MRS MATA: Can you please repeat.

ADV SANDI: Your health, was it affected by this incident?

MRS MATA: Yes, I was affected. My child's father suffered after his death, I also suffered. I am not well, because I was well before this incident, but not, but now I am not well.

ADV SANDI: Do you receive any medical treatment?

MRS MATA: Yes, I do receive a treatment from the clinic.

ADV SANDI: What is this treatment?

MRS MATA: They say I am suffering from a high blood pressure.

ADV SANDI: By coming here in this Commission, Mrs Mata, do you have a request?

MRS MATA: What kind of request, Sir?

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything to say to this Commission, do you have any expectations?

MS MAYA: What kind of expectations?

ADV SANDI: In your statement when you were asked this question you responded by saying you want the funeral expenses to be covered. Do you remember that?

MRS MATA: Yes, if that is possible.

ADV SANDI: You also want a pension fund?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You also requested a community reparation. Do you remember this?

MRS MATA: Can you please repeat.

ADV SANDI: You made a request when you were giving your statement, a request that you would like the children who were injured in this way, in the way which Hombakazi got injured, you want their names to be recorded. Do you remember that?

MRS MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything else to add to your requests?

MRS MATA: No, I have nothing to add.

ADV SANDI: Is that all, Mrs Mata?

MRS MATA: Yes, that is all. I have nothing to add.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Mata. Let us now go to Mr Toyi. Mr Toyi, you were not shot on that day, but people like Hombakazi died as a result of this they cannot come here today to tell us what happened. Can you please tell us, briefly, what happened on this day, Mr Toyi.

MR TOYI: Thank you Mr Sandi and the panel. On the fourth of April 1985 we attended a funeral, Tamsane Stevens funeral, this was held in JD Lebu stadium. When we left the stadium on our way to the graveyard, when we were about to reach Joza township we found four policemen, one of them is Diliza, who is Mrs Nana. Mrs Nana was one of the councillors.

ADV SANDI: You were passing Mrs Nana's house.

MR TOYI: When we were passing this house I was holding my friend's hand. The police shot us, at us, we ran away. When I was about to reach a corner I was shot in my back and I fell down, but I managed to go to one yard, but Dunjwa came in. I was lying down at the time, he was shooting at us. I managed to go through the door. Diliza came with a gun. He broke the window with the back of the rifle. I told him to break all the windows. He insulted me and he put a gun in my neck. I stopped talking. After a while a casspir came, after a Casspir and then an ambulance came. I was taken to the hospital.

When I arrived there in the hospital there was one small room. There was a coloured guy sleeping there. He was dead at the time and one young lady and one police, white policeman. I was taken to the ward. This guy, white guy, took out hand-cuffs and hand-cuffed me. The nurses asked him why are you hand-cuff, why do you hand-cuff him, because he cannot run away and he said that it was the Law, He was supposed to hand-cuff me. One coloured man came to guard me. He would change the hand-cuffs, he would hand-cuff me, my one hand to the, with the bed. I stayed for two weeks in the hospital. In the third week I was taken to the charge office, but when I was discharged there was a lawyer hired, Mr B Sandi.

On Monday I was released on bail. I went to visit Mr Sandi. He then transferred me to one lady to give out a statement to her. This lady told me to consult a doctor in order to get a paper from the doctor, because we were trying to claim. We then managed to get a doctor. The doctor gave me tablets and some medicine. We then went back to Mr Sandi with the paper from the doctor. The case then continued. They would postpone the case now and then. If I am not mistaken it was in September, but I do not remember the date when the case, when we heard that the case was withdrawn.

ADV SANDI: This case, were you accused of anything?

MR TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What were you accused of?

MR TOYI: They said that we stoned Diliza's house.

ADV SANDI: What then happened to the case?

MR TOYI: They told us that we, they will call us again. I waited and waited and I waited for my lawyer to call me.

ADV SANDI: How were you injured?

MR TOYI: I was injured very badly especially in my legs. As I result I have pellets embedded in my body. I would not like to mention the state of my health because the bullets are all over my body, even in my private parts.

ADV SANDI: Before you got injured what were you doing?

MR TOYI: I was covering, I was in upholstery.

ADV SANDI: Could you continue your work?

MR TOYI: No, I could not. I was unable to continue working because my working as an upholsterer required me to bend quite often and I suffered back problems.

ADV SANDI: Do you recall which requests you made when you submitted your statement?

MR TOYI: Yes, I remember.

ADV SANDI: Could you just elaborate on them.

MR TOYI: Mr Plaatjie asked me what I would like the Commission to do for me. I did not make any request at the time I submitted my statement.

ADV SANDI: When asked this question you said that you are now unable to work towards any income for yourself. Is that a way of making some kind of request?

MR TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Which request is that?

MR TOYI: I would ask that the Commission assist me in any way, even if it is the education of my children, because I have four children who need to be educated. Some of them have passed their matric and are unable to proceed with their education.

ADV SANDI: What standard are these children?

MR TOYI: They are, four of them are not at school. The one is at technikon and my wife and mother-in-law help me with the child and the other one is in matric.

ADV SANDI: Is that all you would like to say, Mr Toyi?

MR TOYI: No that is not all, Mr Sandi. When the case failed in the hands of Mr Sandi I went to the Legal Resource Centre and they told me to write to the Law Society and state what happened to my matter and they responded, I wrote to the Law Society after five years and they responded by saying that my file would not be able to be traced after five years and I then left the matter.

I then came to the Legal Aid Clinic and stated my case and I was assisted by an elderly man who listened to my story and said, look, we would advise you to just let this case go, because it is an old matter. If it was approximately three years old you could have had a chance. I said to him, look, if a woman had shot me I would have let the matter be, but a man shot me and I am going to retaliate if I see him anywhere. From there I tried to deal with this and last year I came back to the Legal Resource Centre where I met a young man who advised me to go back to the Law Society. I told him that I had written to the Law Society and he then said I am afraid we will not be able to do anything for you, because the matter is quite old and I said, look, as men, if you assault me I am going to retaliate at some stage or another in whatever way. He said to me you will be arrested and I said you will be the witness.

ADV SANDI: Mr Toyi, if I hear you correctly, you are saying in your statement that we would have to go to Mr Sandi and find out what went wrong in this matter. Is that what you are trying to say?

MR TOYI: No, it is not that I want the matter referred back to Mr Sandi so that they could investigate what went wrong, I am just saying what happened.

ADV SANDI: Is that all you would like to say here, Mr Toyi?

MR TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs June Crichton.

MS CRICHTON: Mr Toyi, can you hear me? Earlier in the proceedings today our Commissioner mentioned that we would be having a hearing later about situations in hospitals that were co-operating with the State. Now, you were hand-cuffed to your bed and that was an abnormal position to be kept in just as people were made to stand for lengthy periods or kept in abnormal positions in prison. Who said to you that it was the Law?

MR TOYI: The policeman whom I encountered sitting with the bereaved widow and the coloured lady.

MS CRICHTON: And the nursing staff, did they ever say anything to you about it being the Law?

MR TOYI: No, the nurses did not want me to be hand-cuffed to the bed.

MS CRICHTON: Do you know the name of the doctor who was responsible for your case?

MR TOYI: No, I do not.

MS CRICHTON: Would you recognise him if you saw him?

MR TOYI: I could attempt to recognise him although at the time he was fairly aged. I do not know what he would look like today.

MS CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Toyi. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toyi, how many people died in this incident where the police shot people that day?

MR TOYI: I am aware of two.

CHAIRPERSON: One of them is the daughter of Mrs Mata. Is that so?

MR TOYI: I could agree, because since having heard her testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her the day she was shot?

MR TOYI: I saw her in hospital, but she was already deceased at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you all at the same funeral?

MR TOYI: Yes, we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then assume that you agree with Mrs Mata that her daughter was shot in that conflict?

MR TOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other two you referred to, what were their names, if you can remember?

MR TOYI: Alistair Godman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alistair Cole.

MR TOYI: Yes, he is the coloured boy who died.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank both of you for your testimony. The requests which you have submitted before us we will include in our report and relay them to Mr Sandi who was the attorney dealing with your matter at the time and, even though you have not asked us to go back to him, we will have to enquire in an attempt to establish what happened, because that is the concept of accountability which is very important in our society today, so that people can come to terms with these things. We will also go to the hospital which you spoke about and where you say you made a statement. I will use this forum to say to them that they have heard the allegation made against them with regards to what happened in that hospital. We thank you. You may be seated.

MR TOYI: Excuse me, Sir, I have a problem. I have been to doctors, not one of them can assist me. They say that these pellets will remain in my body for life. The pain which I experience is not due to the pellets. Now I have given up on medical assistance, but I am still very ill. I would like to ask the Commission to assist me with regards to my health.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr Toyi, for mentioning that to us and listening to your testimony and Mrs Mata's testimony, even if it is not clear to you, it is clear to her that she is very disturbed and Reverend Xundu who is on my far left will send people to meet with you and see what kind of assistance can be granted, what kind of urgent interim relief can be granted to people like yourself who appear before the Commission to put them in contact with doctors until such time as we have finalised our report and submitted it to the President.