CHAIRPERSON: I think we are going to call the last witness, Misile De Villiers Nondzube. This is our last witness and we would like order in the hall and give respect to the witness.
REVD XUNDU: I would like to swear him in Mr Chairman.
MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: (sworn states)
REVD XUNDU: Thank you very much. Mr Chairperson, he has been properly sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Mr Nondzube. We will ask Ntsiki Sandi to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nondzube, you made a request to appear in front of the Commission today. You are here to talk about the incident that happened in March or April in 1987 at your home, where you house was burnt down, is that correct sir?
MR NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct sir.
ADV SANDI: I will now hand over to you to tell us what happened on this particular day, but before I do that, let me ask you some few questions.
Are you a member of the South African Police Services?
MR NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: When did you join the Police Force?
MR NONDZUBE: I joined the Police Force on the 26th of February 1970.
ADV SANDI: I understand that you are going to tell us about the problems that were encountered by the police at the time, is that correct Mr Nondzube?
MR NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct sir.
ADV SANDI: You are going to tell us this before you talk about the incident that happened to you at home?
MR NONDZUBE: If the Commission will allow me, that will be my wish.
ADV SANDI: I hand over to you now Mr Nondzube.
MR NONDZUBE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. As I've already said that I joined the Police Force on the 26th of February 1970. I joined South African Railway and Harbours Police at that time. I was trained, I received my training that same year.
I then came back and I worked here in Grahamstown. Firstly let me talk about this - about what I think the people expected from the police. But I am going to start with this - I thought that I was joining the police to help the people to work accordingly, to work for the people.
But I noticed that there was separation in our - there was a difference between our salaries, our remuneration between the Coloureds, the Blacks and the Whites. The Black people were earning less than any other race in the Railway station.
Because I was a police, I had relatives and I had friends from the SAP police and I understand that this was also the case with the SAP police those years.
Secondly, we were working, we were working for the White man, we were police boys for White people. Even if a person would come to you, asking for a police, he will tell you that I am looking for a police, and that meant that he
was looking for a White police.
Even if you worked for 30 years in the Police Force, if a White person would be hired, he will join the Force and he will be your senior. Our rights were not equal such as our pension benefits.
Whites were given pension benefits, but the Black people were not given that opportunity. Last month I received a circular from the Finance Department saying that I have 22 years in the Police Force, but if you can count I have 27 years service. That means that even now, there is still that separation, although Mr Mandela is a President, I can give you my appointment stating when I joined the Police Force, but they are saying that I have a 22 year old service because I am Black.
I am not speaking on my own behalf, I am referring to any policeman present here who will know what I am talking about. In other words, I am trying to focus to make it clear to this Commission, what is going on in the Police Force - since then to this very day.
Police were trained at different locations. Just a small example Mr Chairperson, a Black policeman was trained by being given an assegai during training, where a White policeman would do his drills with a firearm. I am referring to an R1 rifle or any other firearm.
Any policeman here with experience, will know what I am talking about. And I am reiterating that times were different. White policemen would take six months and Black ones would take five months so that you could not be taught everything that you were supposed to learn as a policeman.
At work the White policemen would have an office, the Black policeman would have to do the beat, those were the
patrols. There were rights such as the ranks which were reserved for Whites.
I can say that after 19 years of working at the Railway police, I still held the same rank. When they spoke to us, they said what could get you a promotion was an incident report. If this Commission could go out and look for a lady called Nontuthuzelo Maxhegwana, she stays somewhere here, I forgot what her address is, I am just trying to give an indication of what the incidents are, I pulled her out from under a moving train because when she tried to board a train, she slipped in almost under the train, and I managed to get in there.
I risked my life to save hers and she was injured, but God gave me the strength and I knew that my duty as a policeman was to help other people. I pulled her out from under that moving train, but in stead of thanks for that, Maxhegwana was arrested. That matter can be drawn even now.
ADV SANDI: Without interrupting you, I find the background that you are sketching very impressive, but I would like you to focus on the law enforcement of police, what the problems were at the time and what the problems were between the police and the people, and what the origin of those problems were.
MR NONDZUBE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. In 1989, in fact since 1985 and 1986 and 1987 there were talks at Parliament that because at that time no one wanted to join the police, it was decided that the Railway police should be incorporated into the South African Police, of which I am still a part today.
We got there at a time where there was tension and at the time where I say, in 1987 my house was burnt. Whereas on the other side, the Government was establishing Councillors and also Council police in the form of municipal police.
ADV SANDI: Are you referring to the police which people called Amangundwana?
MR NONDZUBE: Yes, those. What happened at the time is, I think that it was one of the things which elevated tensions because firstly these people were appointed in these positions here in Grahamstown. Because I was here in Grahamstown, I will speak about what happened in Grahamstown.
They were appointed to these positions, against the will of the community. The community then came together, a lot of people here will know that they recruited the pensioners to vote for them and from there people were recruited to this new Police Force, which was the municipal police. Most of them were uneducated.
ADV SANDI: Mr Nondzube, when you say that they were uneducated, could you give us an example of a standard of education which some of them would have reached?
MR NONDZUBE: Although I don't want to mention names, I am a resident of Grahamstown, but people who had passed standard 2 or standard 3, would be recruited for as long as they would obey and carry out the instructions of the Government.
Some of them were educated, for example this girl that was mentioned here, Duzana Hoboshe is one of the girls who was educated. While speaking to you here, she is a lecturer in the police. So I am saying to you that not all bad comes out of bad, some people come out of that, some good comes out of that.
The people that were recruited there, were used by the Government to oppress the people because the shooting that took place was because even the education which they received, it took three weeks for them to train people in how to use firearms and how to shoot other people. In conclusion of this point, legally speaking these people had no right to work in the municipal area here in Grahamstown.
They worked in the location only so that they did not shoot any White people, but they only shot Blacks. And that got them promoted to such an extent where people with standard 3 would be the seniors of matriculants.
CHAIRMAN: Sir, we thank you for saying some very interesting things here, but we would like you to tell us approximately how long your testimony will take.
MR NONDZUBE: Sir if you would like me to be very brief, I can tell you about my house, but I wanted to give you a background about the people here today.
As I said my house was burnt in 1987. What happened was...
CHAIRPERSON: One moment please sir, I just want to understand that, could you give us an indication of approximately how long you will take?
MR NONDZUBE: I don't want to set a time for you, I would like you to set a time for me. But I need to satisfy you as well.
CHAIRPERSON: The other witnesses who testified before you took 10 minutes and less and we would not like to appear as if we were treating you any different. We would like to treat everyone the same. So I would ask you to please limit yourself and we will grant you 10 more minutes, would that satisfy you?
MR NONDZUBE: So if I start now, what time should I stop?
CHAIRPERSON: If you could please stop at about 10 past.
MR NONDZUBE: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is according to my watch. You should just give us a preview into all these ideas which you would like to express here, but just try and cover everything within the time. Some of us have long distances to travel and time is of the essence.
MR NONDZUBE: As I said, my house burnt in 1987 if I am not mistaken, on the 31st of March and on the 9th of April.
On the 31st of March I was at work, I was working night shift. When I got to my house without knowing that my house had burnt down, no one had come to tell me. I got there at the time I had one child who was not there and I was told by my neighbours that my house had been set alight the previous evening and they had put out the fire.
And it was thanks to my neighbours that the whole house had not burnt out and that some rooms could still be salvaged. And my wife and child could escape through a window and run to my sister's house, to Mrs Mdingi.
On the second occasion I was at home, it was late, at approximately 9 pm. What happened is that when I came out and saw my house surrounded by fire and everything was burning, I came out with my firearm. To my surprise I found that the children who had set my house alight, their ages ranged between 10 and 15.
That told me that these children did not know me. That is what I concluded there and then because I am not afraid to say that no matter how big the toyi-toyi was here in town, I passed them with a clear conscience because up to this day, I have a clear conscience.
Any one who would wish to dispute that, is welcome to stand up and dispute that. I have no guilt in my community, I have a clear conscience, I am aware of the problems in my community. What baffled me was why my house had to be burnt by young children whom I did not even know.
But I concluded that these children must have been sent by someone with the intention that being seated here today, someone was going to get up and say Nondzube, but thank God, I did not shoot anyone's children, I let them go.
I said that I live in this community and the comrades were there at the time. I am even referring to the organisations. The organisations, any one who was in the Councillors or whoever, can - no one came to tell me who had burnt my house, but my house was burnt.
At the beginning of last year I was fortunate. I am now referring to the ministers of religion and the teachers that are seated here. The people seated in this hall that work for the community, I was very fortunate in that I was able to attend a meeting where the ministers of religion wanted to initiate a reconciliation process.
I asked them who they wanted to do that to and they said that they were going to focus on the victims. And I wanted to know where the perpetrators were. And since that day, up to date, these ministers of religion left and never came back. What are they afraid of? Why did they not go to these people?
They know who the perpetrators were, why did they not go to them? My time is up and I am going to stop there although there was one more thing which I wanted to conclude with.
I would like to conclude by saying that as policemen,
what are we to do to bring about change? In my religion conversion comes in three stages. One of them, the final stage, is acknowledgement, forgetting and asking for forgiveness.
And as police, I think that we have to say to the community of Grahamstown, we are sorry. Secondly, to bring about change. We have to humble ourselves and change.
Thirdly to acknowledge the faults by saying we acknowledge that these things were done by policing and as a policeman I cannot distance myself and say that I did not do that, I am also a policeman.
If you listened to the testimony here, you would have heard that in almost all cases, the police were involved. To bring about change eventually, and reconcile and I would like to conclude by saying that we should bring about reconciliation.
ADV SANDI: I am going to hand you back to the Chairman Mr Nondzube.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions? No questions? Have you got a question?
ADV SANDI: Yes. Mr Nondzube, do you have - do you suspect anyone of being responsible for the arson on your house?
MR NONDZUBE: Chairperson, I do not want to say that the house was set alight by any particular person, because I did not see who set my house alight, but in this testimony which I put here before you today, you have to find who burnt my house.
ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. I thank you Mr Nondzube for lecturing us about the policing problems. Unfortunately, your time was very short, but the way you
related your story was very interesting and perhaps we should have started with you this morning already. I thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank you sir. We do not always have policemen that speak in this fashion. Mr Sandi reminded me this morning when we were having breakfast, we were reflecting on poetry where it says that I do not know, and I do not care.
We are aware of those three factors or stages of religion, the I don't know, I don't care and it was not I, but we thank you. You identify yourself with what the Police Force had done, which is a major point.
There are people here who did not even know about apartheid, when you speak to them now, they do not even know that anything like that existed and they refuse to even acknowledge it. It is very rare where you find someone acknowledging that they supported apartheid. Everyone denies that they supported apartheid, because people don't want to own up, they don't want to say it is us or it is me.
Lots of people turn a blind eye. When these reconciliation meetings which we have, these hearings, the reason we have them in public and the reason we have these large venues, is so that people can come along and hear. Come and see so that they get affected by what they hear and see.
People close their eyes because they want to say we did not know. Even at this time when they've got an opportunity to know. They do not want to come because they want to say they did not know.
We thank you for coming here and coming to inform the people. But more than anything we thank you for caring, for
the concern and even suggest ways forward of how the cleansing, the cleansing of the nation can take place. Because this is to me a national ritual, national ritual of cleansing that this nation can be cleansed. And this nation can start again.
What happens is that the victims come here, the perpetrators and beneficiaries of the old system don't want to know what happened because they don't want to avail themselves to the cleansing.
We thank you for your suggestions. You are our last witness and you are going to sit there until I have finished. We have now reached the end of our hearing here in Grahamstown. We have listened to 68 matters, we have heard 68 matters.
These are matters that have left us moved beyond belief. When we are going home now after the hearings, whether it is in Umtata, Aliwal North or Uitenhage or wherever, we go home with pictures or mental ideas of what happened here which will affect us for the rest of our lives.
Because these hearings affect us and when we get home and we lie down to sleep, there will be faces that will come back to haunt us, that will not leave our memory. Faces of people who were before us, who testified before us.
We leave for home with an additional 68 faces, some of them are tearful faces, some of them have scarred and injured hands and the last face is one that was shot and half the scull went through a wall behind him.
Those kind of images will stay with us for the rest of our lives. We thank the people of Grahamstown and also the little towns around it for having brought your testimony to
us.
We thank the people of Grahamstown who have come here to listen. When we got here on Sunday and got up early Monday morning in the cold and the rain, I got here and said to Mr Sandi, I think we should get a small room. I think they should have given us a classroom because we are going to get cold here. I am amazed that even in this weather, the people of Grahamstown have come out to our hearings and have attended our hearings throughout.
They have come here determined to behave themselves in a manner befitting such a hearing. The behaviour of the people of Grahamstown has been excellent and even those who were tempted to disrupt that, were unable to.
Once again, I would like us to thank the following people because at this hearing I said this in the beginning, there have been White people as well. Our hearings in the Eastern Cape and this has brought us a lot of pain, have been attended by the previously disadvantaged. Those who were previously advantaged and benefitted from the previous dispensation, have been 100% absent from our hearings.
In this hearing we have seen a consistent attendance of a few, very few, I would say 5% of our audience has been White people and I think that they must know that the gesture that they are making, that is recorded, because here in Grahamstown, there are people who have said by their attending, we care, we want to own up to this past. We want to deal with this ritual. We want this cleansing of the nation to see us participate and we are not going to close our eyes to it.
And we thank you very much for that gesture. You are going to be haunted as well by what you have seen. These
images will remain with you all your lives and this is why we hold these hearings at public gatherings.
We would have loved if there were more than just 5% or 3% of White people, but at least a start has been made and we appreciate that very much.
I would like to thank the Clergy, especially the Bishop of Grahamstown, Bishop David. He has made a remarkable gesture who in spite of his busy schedule and I know how busy he was, made it a point that since Monday, the beginning of the hearing to the end of the hearing.
I think by doing that he has demonstrated pastoral solidarity, pastoral concern to the people who were violated in various ways in this area. I would also like to thank Luke Pato who is in charge of the theological ceremony here and who decided to be here all day today and yesterday as well to listen to this hearing.
Those gestures, and also the other members of the clergy who have opened and closed our hearings, they are indeed very appreciated.
We thank the Councillor of Grahamstown, the Mayor who borrowed us this hall, we thank him for his presence at this hearing. We thank the Mayor of Fort Beaufort and others who attended this hearing.
I would like to thank the police, the person who is in charge of the police. We would like to thank them for maintaining order. They at some stage wanted to search us upon our arrival here, but they have made some concessions and we are very grateful for that.
We had spoken about the police quite often but having a cooperative attitude, shows a new direction. We thank the interpreters as well and also those in charge of the
recording facilities.
We thank the interpreters who have worked very hard here today, the first day we had one interpreter who worked all day without complaining and we thank her and we would like to thank the staff of the TRC and especially, especially the statementtakers working in this region, Mr Plaatjie, Mr Mere, Mr Petros.
We have heard 68 matters, but I am sure that we have received more than 200 statements. Some of them will remain in our records, we will investigate them and we will do internal hearings in regard to them.
Finally, I would like to thank the media for the good coverage they had given our hearing. I thank the panellists, our colleagues who kept us in order, especially Mr Sandi whose responsibility it was on his shoulders to prepare for this hearing.
I would like us to give them all a round of applause.
ADV SANDI: Chairperson, before we close, I think we would be failing if we did not thank you for the dignity you have bestowed upon this hearing by your presence and the thought provoking remarks you made after each testimony, in spite of the pain the people expressed and we would like to thank you and encourage you to keep that up. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought that we could close this hearing by singing a verse of a particular hymn. We will close by singing the national anthem.
COMMISSION CLOSES WITH NATIONAL ANTHEM: .
