CHAIRMAN: We thank Revd Ngacha. Thank you for opening for us in prayer. As we are about to listen to the Border Region witnesses. Ms Maya will give us today's order.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MS MAYA: Honourable Presiding Commissioner, I present to you this morning a list of all witnesses who have applied to appear before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee in the order in which they will appear.
We are covering today four magisterial districts which are King William's Town, Stutterheim, Dimbaza and Peelton.
I will first read out the name of the witness who will be testifying, then the name of the victim, then the nature of the violation, the area in which in occurred or the area from which the people come and the year during which the violation occurred.
First on our list we have Nomzi Vivie Guzana, about Onward Guzana, murdered in King William's Town in 1991. Nomafakathi Sebe, about Charles Sebe, murdered in King William's Town in 1991. Lizo Nabo, about himself, severe ill-treatment in King William's Town in 1991; Thyline Nene, about Steven Nene, tortured in King William's Town in 1990; Nonkululeko Gladys Madikane, about Carrington Mcoseleli Madikane, murdered in King William's Town in 1992; Notakumani Lena Nana, about Desmond Nana, murdered in Stutterheim in 1986; Mvuzo Bazi, about himself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1985; Neliswa Nonhunha Dyantyi Busika about herself and her daughter, severe ill-treatment in Stutterheim in 1985 up to 1986; Nodida Jane Zamkana, about herself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1986; Khayalethu Hela, about himself, attempted murder in Stutterheim in 1985; Koko Godana about Joseph Mzingaye Godana, murdered in Stutterheim in 1986; Nobendiba Nolifisi Xhalisile, about herself, severe ill-treatment in Stutterheim in 1985; Wonke Wthiel Maqubela, about himself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1985; Vuyani Tweni, about himself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1986; Wayliese Peter, about himself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1986; Mzwabantu Ngxokela, about himself, tortured in Stutterheim in 1987; Mateyisi Ndondo, about Mbulelo Ndondo, murdered in Stutterheim in 1985; Mthunzi Wellington Tyakume, about Dumalisile Sydney Tyakume, murdered in Dimbaza in 1977; Boyce Mtyobile, about himself, severe ill-treatment in Peelton, 1990 up to 1992; Meyile Malcomeso Siwayi, about himself, severe ill-treatment in Peelton in 1991; Stanley Rhojz about himself, severe ill-treatment in King William's Town in 1992. That is our list, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We are going to give reverence to those who passed away. Won't we all please get up for a moment of silence.
We remember today Onward Guzana, Charles Sebe, Carrington Mcoseleli Madikane, Desmond Nana, Joseph Mzingaye Gadana, Mbulelo Ndondo, Dumalisile Sydney Tyakume. May they rest in peace Lord, and please give them eternal life, Amen.
We requested that Mr Ngonyama give us a brief political comment, however, he is not here yet, so we are going to carry on with our witnesses. Can Nomzi Vivie Guzana and Nomafakathi Sebe come forward please.
Mrs Guzana and Mrs Sebe, we welcome you here today before the Commission. We are going to request that Revd Xundu swear you in.
NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: (sworn states)
NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: (sworn states)
REVD XUNDU: Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ntsiki Sandi will lead evidence on behalf of the Commission.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mrs Guzana and Mrs sebe, as I look at your statements before us, you are going to speak on behalf of your husbands whose names were already mentioned.
They were murdered in January 1991. This happened between Stutterheim and King William's Town. Is that so, Ma'am?
You agreed that it is Mrs Guzana who will give most of the evidence, is that so?
MRS GUZANA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Mrs Guzana, before you start, you said that you asked for extra minutes, because your evidence is quite long. Where are you going to start, are you going to start when these gentlemen were in the Transkei before they came here or are you going to start before they went to Transkei?
MRS GUZANA: I am going to start from the time before they went to Transkei.
ADV SANDI: Mrs Guzana, can we proceed then?
MRS GUZANA: I would like first to express my gratitude to the Commission as a whole for allowing us this opportunity to speak for the first time because in the beginning things were said about my husband and Mr Sebe and we could not contest them, we were never given the opportunity, so our being allowed to be here has restored our status as citizens of this country.
I am going to start in 1990, the last Thursday before the Easter Weekend, when my husband was called to the official residence of Brigadier Gqozo.
I don't know what they discussed, but in the evening, actually at night, that Thursday, his bodyguards came to the house that we were occupying to take away his arms, saying they were afraid that he may kill himself.
Then I said they would rather give another reason because my husband had never been suicidal. When he came back, he told me of a quarrel between them, a disagreement because he was - he had suggested that the people who had been detained on the day of the coup, should be charged or released.
And they disagreed over that. Then when we woke up the following morning, our telephone line had been cut. We were not allowed to go out of the gate. At about ten that Friday, Good Friday morning, Brigadier Gqozo's bodyguard and the Commander General of the Police Force arrived at our house. They had brought a resignation form which my husband had either to sign or to accept being arrested.
He chose to be arrested and they took him away. Thirty minutes later, they brought him back, he said he had been taken to the parliamentary buildings but before they could get in, they stopped outside and explained to him that if he chose a resignation, at least he would have the opportunity of planning his life.
But ...
ADV SANDI: Before I disturb you, did they give reasons for having arrested him?
MRS GUZANA: They were arresting him because he was refusing to resign. Then if he chose the resignation, he would have the opportunity of planning his life, but if he went inside the parliamentary buildings, nobody knew what would happen to him and so they pleaded with him that he should resign and so he resigned.
When they brought him back to the house, they said they were giving us one hour to vacate the house. We stayed at my sister's place in Pagamisa then two weeks later, at night on a Friday, we heard footsteps around the house. It was quiet for a moment and then after that, two soldiers knocked at the door. When a child opened the door, a firearm was pointed at her and she had to run behind the chairs.
The soldier in front moved his pistol around the chairs and when he located my husband, he cocked his pistol. When he asked what was happening, they instructed him to go out with them. Then we realised that the house had been surrounded by soldiers.
I heard them shouting that he should lay on his stomach in a 4 x 4 that was standing outside. They took him away, he was detained for about four weeks and was released without being charged and without any restrictions.
After that he was detained again towards the end of July, during the June school holidays. When they detained him for the second time, I wrote a letter to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, P.W. Botha, I took the letter with my lawyer to the Embassy. The Embassy supported my letter and they made arrangements that with my lawyer, we would fly to Pretoria, they had arranged a meeting with P.W. Botha.
They were supporting my letter because they said they had been informed by the family of one member of the Defence Force who was also in detention, who had been in detention, that the Ciskei Defence Force was training people near Zilene to be hitmen.
Because the contents of my letter was that I feared that my husband would be killed. But before we could go to Pretoria, they told me that a retired member of the South African Defence Force was an advisor to Brigadier Gqozo and he always came here on Thursdays, so they would fax the letter to him, so that when he came on Thursday, he would address this with Brigadier Gqozo.
I never heard again from them. The only time I heard from them, was on the first day when the schools reopened in July. When a man was sent to my school with two letters. One to my principal and one to myself. I was being discharged from my services as a teacher.
And the man had been instructed that he shouldn't leave the premises before I left. So I had to drive and recollect myself outside the gates and he waited patiently.
The letter that discharged me, was accompanied by a copy of the letter that I had written to P.W. Botha. He never responded to me, the only response I got was from the Military Council discharging me on the basis of the letter I had written to him.
If I go back to the first detention, when I challenged that detention, because as a senior member of the
Defence Force, he was supposed to be arrested by Senior members of the Police Force, two Senior members of the Security Police signed statements that they had made the arrests, and I couldn't have mistaken them, because one of them was our neighbour in Bisho, but they signed letters that they had arrested him and so I lost the case.
At the end of the three months of the second detention, he was charged with high treason with his brother who was also a member of the Defence Force. I had a problem, I had to pay R5 000-00 for his bail. The money was ready but nobody was prepared to accept it, so after being charged, he had to remain in prison for three days because at the Magistrate's office in Bisho they didn't want to take the money, they sent me to the prison in Mdantsane and again there nobody wanted to take the money.
It took one prison warder who travelled with us to Zwelitsha and told them that they had to accept the money and he was released. He had to report to the police station every Friday.
Then on the last Friday before he was going to appear the next Monday, not on Friday, but the last week before he was going to appear the following week, soldiers started looking for him. He went to stay with his brother in Pedi.
On a Wednesday of that week, I went to him with a packed suitcase and some money and told him to leave the country because the soldiers were searching for him everywhere. He came with us to King William's Town, we got the contact person who was going to take him out of the country but 30 minutes later, they returned and he said he wanted to go to court because that is where he would defend himself.
But again the soldiers looked for him and on that Friday when he had to report to the police station, he didn't go because there was a police vehicle that was standing outside the police station, waiting for him because when his brother went to report, they said they were not waiting for the Guzana.
So again on that Friday his brother was approached by members of the Defence Force who asked him to sign a document according to which, if he testified against his brother the following Monday, he would get his salary for all the months that he was out of work and he would get a promotion, and he signed that document and when I told my husband about that, he decided to leave.
So we left for the Transkei. Two weeks after being in Transkei Howza gave a statement on TV confessing on his plans with my husband to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo and he said they would get assistance from General Holomisa who was a friend of my husband.
What was strange in that was that the SABC had released a video cassette speaking in Transkei in 1987, where they had gone to play against the Transkei Defence Force as a token of friendship after the military council had come to power in the Transkei, but the context of that speech which was friendship, was used in 1990 to support Howza's statement that my husband was a friend of Holomisa and so together they would overthrow Brigadier Gqozo.
I couldn't understand the SABC. Then my husband met with Mr Sebe before Christmas when he came to fetch me and Nomafakathi to go to Durban for the December holidays. When they came back in January, the second week of January, they arrived during the week, I think it was on a Thursday, then on Sunday there were visitors, it was Mlandeli Kula, whom we thought was an ex-member of the Defence Force with a Mr Nohashe who was a mayor of Fort Beaufort and a Mr Nazo also from Fort Beaufort.
I don't know what they discussed but from my husband, they had - Kula had been sent by the soldiers to say they wanted to stage a coup but they would only do that if my husband would agree to be Chairman after the coup.
This was followed by other meetings and in this meeting Mr Nohashe was there according to my husband, because he was the man who was accommodating Kula because he was not staying at home, he was afraid of the soldiers and he was supporting his family.
I had to go back to Stutterheim where I was teaching. When I came back on the Friday of the 25th, January 1991, my husband had gone to Ezibeleni with Mr Sebe and they were already driving the Jetta that had been hired by Mr Nohashe.
Then he said they were going to come to Ciskei the following day, on a Saturday. That Saturday morning Kula phoned at 10 am to confirm that they were coming and to say it was raining so they should be warmly dressed.
They left at about six in the evening, then it was in the morning at about ten that we heard from the radio that there had been a failed coup attempt in Ciskei. Immediately I told myself that if what they had gone for, had failed, then he was arrested and he would take it as a man.
As a result when Titi Matanzima came to tell us that my husband had been killed, I didn't hear him, because I knew that he had come to tell us that he had been arrested and if he had been arrested, then he is going to take it as a man.
It took him, he had to say it for the second time for me to understand that he was saying he had been killed. And the inquest followed. For me to come to Ciskei, the members of my family had to negotiate with Gqozo for three days to allow me to come to Ciskei. When I arrived, we went to identify his body at the police mortuary in Mdantsane. When we arrived there, the place was full of school kids wearing navy blue tunics.
And they were being shown Mr Sebe's body. I didn't see his body but I gathered from what they were saying that his face was disfigured and he was darker than they knew him. And my sister and myself told the police that that was our person that they were showing to the school kids and the children were taken away, driven out of the yard.
We called the Sebe's to inform them about that. At the inquest the soldiers testified that their plan had been planned by Ciskei soldiers because they wanted to kill my husband and Mr Sebe because they believed they were enemies of Brigadier Gqozo.
My husband was supposed to be picked up by a Mr Mguzulwa who was a member of the Defence Force in Stutterheim. They would only pick him up if everything had gone well.
Then one evidence by a Rifleman Xotyeni unfortunately for him, he was the only one who said something that was different from the other soldiers, because according to his testimony he had seen Sergeant Ralo and Mguzulwa driving from Stutterheim reporting to the soldiers that the Jetta was not at the spot where they were going to meet, drove towards King William's Town and they later drove again towards Stutterheim.
Then he said in the early hours of Sunday the 28th, he was awoken by some noise made by the soldiers and he noticed there and then that the bakkie driven by Ralo, was driving down the (indistinct) from Stutterheim with a flashing blue light on top.
And again what was strange, he said the soldiers who were manning the roadblock were not standing on the road surface, but they were laying in trenches along the sides of the road. Then when the bakkie approached, he noticed that he was followed by this red Jetta.
When they arrived at the roadblock, they stopped there, Ralo and Mguzulwa got out of their car, crossed the road towards Rifleman Xotyeni who was in a buffel.
Once they had crossed the road, they started shooting at the red car. The Jetta reversed and when through the roadblock, safely enough not to hit the bakkie that was in front. It drove for 50 kilometres from the roadblock, in a zigzag and it was explained that the zigzag was a means of escaping being hit by the bullets.
Then somewhere it left the road and it went into the field. Rifleman Xotyeni said immediately Ralo ran to him and said to drive him to that car in the field. When they arrived there, Ralo got off the buffel, approached the red Jetta and he says after that he drove back to the roadblock.
When asked why he was leaving Ralo there, he said because he was scared. Why was he scared? Because he was watching somebody being killed. Who was being killed? It was Colonel Guzana. Who was killing him? I don't know.
But who were with you in the field? It was General Ralo and Colonel Guzana. The finding of the inquest was that the Judge expressed his sorrow that Rifleman Xotyeni the only person who had given evidence that was reliable, he last gave his evidence on a Monday, by Saturday of that week he was dead.
And he allegedly died in an accident inside the military base at (indistinct). I couldn't understand that. Well after contradicting statements, or again I find that the decision of the Judge unacceptable, because he says Xotyeni was the only person who gave a reliable evidence.
He said the other witnesses of the Defence Force was unreliable, but in making his decisions, he said if my husband was shot at a roadblock, he couldn't find that the soldiers were committing a crime in killing him at a roadblock, but the reliable evidence says he was killed in the field.
Then again the State employed a Dr Trollop as a pathologist, who admitted at the inquest that he never qualified, he was never trained as a pathologist, but the State allowed him to dissect my husband from the throat down. What he was looking for, I don't know.
Because although he cut his body, he never commented about a single wound on his body. His death certificate said he died of head injuries. But he never said where those head injuries were. We couldn't even demonstrate in court how one looks for head injuries in a head with hear like my husband's. He had to be shown in court.
He identified exit wounds as entrance wounds. The two fatal wounds on top of my husband's head, he never saw them. Then we hired a family pathologist who gave a different version, that there were three fatal wounds. One was at the back in the area of the kidneys and he said if that had been the first shot, he couldn't have driven the car from the roadblock, but the fact that he drove that car meant that he was well, he had not been hit yet.
Then the two other wounds from the top of his head, he should have died within minutes after those wounds. And for a man of his height, he couldn't have been standing when those shots were fired. And if he was inside the car, there was no telling bullet holes on the body of the car which suggested that he was in a kneeling position when he was killed.
And he said he must not have been killed on the road, he must have been killed in the field. Which corresponded with Rifleman Xotyeni's evidence.
ADV SANDI: Who was the family pathologist?
MRS GUZANA: A Doctor Wagner from the Orange Free State.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MRS GUZANA: Again I would like to go back to Ralo because Ralo had been my husband's bodyguard and he knew that he was trusted by my husband. When President Mandela came to the Ciskei in 1990, I asked Ralo about my husband's safety. He lifted up his jersey and showed me his waist. His belt was full of hand grenades.
And he said if Colonel was threatened in any way, I would die before him. When I told my husband that he was impressed. And so I think when Ralo was sent to Stutterheim to meet my husband, they knew that they were sending somebody whom he trusted and he denied that.
ADV SANDI: Nazo who was together with Mr Nohashe, the one who said he was a Mayor, do you know his full names?
MRS GUZANA: No, I don't know them.
ADV SANDI: We met two or three Nazo's in the statements we received. Can you please physically describe him?
MRS GUZANA: Well, he had some weight, light complexioned, what I noticed about him was his uncomfortable position, he was sweating and he complained about his high blood and he drink a lot of blood, that is what I know about him and I wouldn't know why he was involved in that. And when the others went for the meeting, he didn't join them, they said he was a civilian.
Then again my husband's position in that field, there was a video cassette that was played in the inquest, is in three positions, he is in four positions actually. One position he has got his head leaning against the right window and I couldn't understand why that window was closed because they couldn't have shot, fired at the roadblock with a window closed. It should have been opened, but it was closed.
The next position, he is leaning against the passenger seat, the third one, he is leaning over the steering wheel, the forth one he is laying on the ground, but when he arrived at the District Surgeon, he was already naked.
Some of his property I haven't recovered yet. He had an expensive wrist watch that had been given to him by Chinese visitors, while they were still in the military council, that has never been given back to me. The money that he had in his purse, in his wallet, was never there.
Again there was a statement - an announcement - that it was claimed he would have made at Radio Ciskei where it bore his signature and it was proved, I proved it that it was not his signature, and Maqonwolo who had been a journalist of Umtombo here in Bisho, agreed in court that he had written the statement and signed my husband's signature but that was used as a reason for his killing.
Again in his executive case, he had a diary where he had filled in all the dates that they were supposed to have come for the coup. He had scratched several Fridays, that diary was never shown in court, in stead they showed a new one for 1991, written in pencil, my husband never even used a pencil, except if they were having an intake at the Defence Force, otherwise he never used a pencil.
ADV SANDI: Before we can continue, let us hear from Mrs Sebe. Do you have children Mr Guzana?
MRS GUZANA: Yes, we do.
ADV SANDI: How old are they?
MRS GUZANA: One is 20, one is going to be 14 in June and the other one has just turned 10.
ADV SANDI: Can you please tell us how this affected your children?
MRS GUZANA: The older one, when we left for Transkei, soldiers used to come, it was the Security Police, they used to come to our house and question here in the garage. She was involved in a way because like our clothes, she had to smuggle our clothes to Transkei, taking a risk.
Then after my husband's death, the older one could understand it, the younger one was only four, but the boy was eight and he had been very close to his father. Up to today, he never mentions his father's name. He actually pleaded with me not to come here.
He pleaded with me not to come here because he doesn't like all this publicity.
ADV SANDI: Mr Guzana, before we proceed to Mrs Sebe, do you have requests to the Commission today concerning this matter?
MRS GUZANA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: You've mentioned some of your requests in your statement. I would like you to repeat them.
MRS GUZANA: The first request because I have kids whom I have to provide with a home and other needs, I need compensation. Again I would like my son to be counselled and again because my husband - Gqozo refused to discharge him, although they had forced him to resign, they refused to discharge him as a member of the Defence Force, which means when he died, he was still a full member of the Defence Force, so I deserve everything that should be accorded to a widow of a member of the Defence Force, including the support of my children.
I demand those because they refused to discharge him.
ADV SANDI: You've made a request concerning Dr Trollop. You want to know who authorized him to perform a post-mortem on your husband, is that correct?
MRS GUZANA: Yes, I would like to know how, knowing that he was not a pathologist, how they could allow him to touch my husband's body.
ADV SANDI: You've also mentioned another request that you would like to know who killed your husband is that correct?
Thank you Mrs Guzana. If you missed out something, you will get a change when my colleagues ask you questions. Let us now go to Mrs Sebe.
Mrs Sebe, is there something that you would like to clarify or add in connection with Mrs Guzana's evidence?
MRS SEBE: Yes, although our stories are the same, there is something that I would like to add. I think it just differs. My husband managed to run away from the roadblock.
He stayed home night and day after having run away from the roadblock. He got to Dwashu the following night. People were looking for him everywhere, in helicopters and cars. Brigadier Gqozo appeared on TV being asked that as Charles Sebe had run away, what is going to happen?
Then Brigadier Gqozo said "seek and destroy" and then yet again, another difference between my testimony and Mrs Guzana's is that my husband survived the roadblock, got to Dwashu and was still well. He said he had wounds that were very painful. I think one around the ribs.
I think it was difficult for him to breathe.
ADV SANDI: Excuse me Mrs Sebe, what is this Dwashu, is it a surname or a village?
MRS SEBE: It is a surname. My husband knew about this home, because he went to school in Zileni, so he knew the schools there.
ADV SANDI: Did you meet with the Dwashu people and did they tell you what happened after he arrived there? Or did perhaps divulge anything to them?
MRS SEBE: No, not at the time. I was not there, but I did hear that Mr Dwashu said that after Charles arrived, he wanted to take him to the clinic, but Charles refused because he knew he was hiding away.
But we all don't know how he was going to leave the Dwashu home. However, Mr Dwashu realised that the had to take him to a clinic because there was nothing else he could do for him.
ADV SANDI: Was there a post-mortem performed on him?
MRS SEBE: Similar to Mrs Guzana's. Dr Trollop said he had died of gunshot wounds and head injuries. However, all this happened while I was still in Transkei and it was clear I was not going to be able to come to the Ciskei.
We were scared that something would happen to me. Somebody phoned me from the Ciskei, a family member, saying that I should remain in the Transkei and not come in the Ciskei. All this information we got in bits and pieces and we didn't know where it all comes from.
Therefore, I did not come over to the Ciskei even though my husband was in danger. It is sad that we incriminated my husband, because as a family we could not come here to the Ciskei and support him.
We decided to cremate his body and have a memorial service in Transkei. I was able to see the corps in Cambridge.
ADV SANDI: Were you able to perform a second post-mortem?
MRS SEBE: No.
ADV SANDI: How old are your children?
MRS SEBE: I have children who are quite grown up. The eldest is not married and the other was still at home. The my last born son who was at UCT, passed away.
ADV SANDI: As we are going to conclude this evidence, how did your husband's death affect your family? As he was killed like a dog, surely this must have affected you gravely?
MRS SEBE: My husband was well and alive. He never took any medication, no diabetes, no hypertension, he was well and alive, a healthy man.
His death was not through his illness. His life was cut short through murder.
ADV SANDI: These three men that Mrs Guzana mentioned, according to your statement you said that your husband told you that these men were there.
MRS SEBE: Yes, whilst we were still back in Durban on holiday, I think my husband would phone them because he had told me about them. I did not know them and I did not want to know them, because I had a fear within me.
ADV SANDI: What was he saying about these men?
MRS SEBE: He said that these men also wanted to come to Ciskei and everything would have been prepared for them for the coup.
My husband did not want to divulge all. As a policeman he did not come home and divulge everything that happened at work. Even if I had asked him or not, even if I was there with him, he was not going to divulge everything to me, because it is a norm in the Xhoza culture.
ADV SANDI: Do you have requests before the Commission? ... (tape ends)
MRS SEBE: My husband was alive, even if my children are old, grown up. I am not working. If my husband was still alive, somebody would be supporting me.
I am supporting myself and it is difficult, but God lives. And God supports me. I lost everything. I had to sell most of the things that my husband had left for me, because I have to buy food, I have to go to the Doctor when I am ill, I have to buy clothing. I have to fix up my environment, all these things cost money.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Guzana, thank you Mrs Sebe. I am going to hand over to the Chairperson. If there is anything you've left out, perhaps the Chairperson would be asking you questions.
CHAIRMAN: June Crichton?
MS CRICHTON: Mrs Guzana, there are a few things here that under normal circumstances I am sure you would have gone to an Attorney with. You were unfairly dismissed, there were statements made by a journalist that were inaccurate, the SABC made statements that were from three years previously, or showed pictures from three years previously.
So my question to you is, did you ever approach an Attorney to deal with these matters?
MRS GUZANA: I did not because when my husband was detained, it meant we are not going to get his salary and when I was discharged, my salary was given half the salary for that month and I stayed a year without my pensions, because the Act according to which I had been discharged, did not exist in the Department of Education.
And they did not know how to calculate the pensions and the lawyer that I had then, did not advise me to that effect and even after the death of my husband, the lawyer asked me to find an Advocate and I couldn't finance that. I went to the Council of Churches, that is where I was advised that even if I had money, I couldn't employ an Advocate on my own. So I think I was ill-advised.
MS CRICHTON: And then just one other question. The Judge that dealt with that case, what was his name?
MRS GUZANA: It was Judge Claassens.
MS CRICHTON: Judge Claassens? Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN: Mrs Guzana, you say that you would like to make it clear that your deceased husband never planned a coup but was lured into a trap so that he could be killed.
Who do you think in your own mind, was responsible for the entire operation, the entire plan?
MRS GUZANA: It was Mlandeli Kula. Because he even used me to get to my husband.
CHAIRMAN: Was he working for the Ciskei Defence Force? What exactly was his job?
MRS GUZANA: He was a soldier, but he said that he had been dismissed.
CHAIRMAN: Just refresh my memory again, what was the outcome of the inquest?
MRS GUZANA: The outcome was that there was no coup planned by the deceased, the coup was planned from inside and it was simply a plan to lure them into a trap, simply to be killed.
CHAIRMAN: That is the finding of the inquest?
MRS GUZANA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: But the Judge failed to find anybody responsible for that?
MRS GUZANA: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: Referring back to the SABC, we are going to the hearing here, the media hearing, we will be evaluating valuations, where the media partook in this matters?
MRS GUZANA: Because of the bad relationship that had been there between the Sebe's and the Matanzima's when the military government took over, it was suggested that as a token of friendship, the two forces should play some matches and so my husband as a rugby player, he went there and he spoke on behalf of the Commander of the Ciskei Defence Force.
The context of the speech was the friendship between the two countries. Then in 1990 when Howza made his confession, that footage of 1987 was used to substantiate Howza's argument that Holomisa and Guzana were friends, and it was out of context in 1990.
CHAIRMAN: And this event in 1987 happened before the coup of Ciskei took place?
MRS GUZANA: Excuse me?
CHAIRMAN: The event in 1987 when your husband went over to play rugby in Transkei and had this conversation with Holomisa, that was before the coup in Ciskei had taken place?
MRS GUZANA: In 1990?
CHAIRMAN: Yes, it was still ...
MRS GUZANA: Yes. The coup was on the 4th of March, 1990.
CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are there questions? We would like to thank you for having come before the Commission to give us this very sad testimony.
And as your son was saying that this thing should not be publicised, but should be private, we appreciate that you have come here. The deaths of your husbands is one of the mysteries that we hope the truth will be revealed.
We believe that this country to be able to have reconciliation, must know the truth. There should be no discrepancies in the history of this country.
I remember as if yesterday, the day your husbands were murdered. It marked a turning point. People realised the seriousness of the status quo in Ciskei at the time. You have raised a number of questions, and as a Commission we should get answers.
You have raised a number of atrocities as Mrs Crichton picked out the atrocities - unfair dismissal and things like that. These things we should go into as a Commission.
Please be patient, we will keep coming back to you for more information. As a Commission, we would like to reveal the truth so that one day the truth is fully revealed. Thank you very much, you may step down.
